Ry's H,<BR>I want to congratulate you on your willingness to accept your wife with love.<P>I want to say something. C was just born last week in my case.<P>Before the birth and after d-day not only did I lose weight and cry constantly, our 21 year old son was devastated by the thought of Dad wanting and loving another C that wasn't from our marriage.<P>My son began to cry one day in January and didn't stop. It was awful to see this man-child suffer so much. My H said he'd just have to accept it like a man!<P>By the fifth day my son begged me to take him to psych ward at our local hospital. He was wanting to die. He was hospitalized over this situation. He's come a long way since then thanks to medication and counseling. But he will never be the same.<P>I too am on medication.<P>It's like my H overstepped us in favor of unborn C. I argued C doesn't KNOW any pain...we do. Help US. But he hasn't. He just does what is best for him. Never mind a child who will still know how it came to be.<P>I am trying to say the lives of us and immediate families have been all but destroyed over this. I can not see his choice to this day.<P>A little bio. Married 27 years. One son...21. In a wink of an eye it's all over now due to H's 2 poor choices...A and Baby.<P>So see what I mean? If you want to raise this baby so be it. No good will come of bio dad being in your marriage for years to come. She can know you chose to father her. She will love you for being honest. Bio dad may change in the future...but for now...work on you two.<P>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Thank You for reading the posting that my wife allowed me to place while using her password. That said I must tell some of you that I feel you are willfully refusing to understand my postion because it makes you uncomfortable as you maybe forced to examine your or your spouses ethics - ergo, the ethics you are passing on to your children. (Please do not think that I am trying to be rude or morally judgemental, I am not, I am simply expressing my opinion about this issue in an ethical/moral context - not attempting to judge others or to believe that I am better or worse than any of you - I am not!). Therefore let me try this. Our daughter is MINE, I was there during the pregnancy, Dr.'s appointments, Ultra-Sound and birth. I have told my wife that she was not concieved in love but was born into it as I loved her for the second I heard her heart beat. I DO NOT WANT THE OM IN MY LIFE, MY WIFES LIFE OR OUR CHILDREN'S LIFES. The question's that I was posing and the position that I will always take is, "how honorable, moral or ethical is it for a man to have a child and then simply walk away?" I know this is a difficult question for many of you, frankly, I can tell by your anger and hostility and your inability to respecfully look at others positions. Yet, I know as a man it bother's me that my wife had the ability to keep this secret from me for so long - what does that say about her character? I have re-read some of my wife's postings because I wanted to find out how this rage that some of you feel got started. Honestly, it was apparant that many of you wanted to slam her for not telling me-which frankly is the same point I am trying to make about the OM (in any case) not owning up to his actions. What does it say about him or his family if he can simply disown or not acknowldge the existance of a life he helped create? Again, my question is a moral and ethical question - not condeming anyone - of what does it say about the character of the man that can not want to own up to what he has caused. I need all of you to understand something, I know that I have been "invited" by some of you to post here but as a social worker I must tell you that I would not do it (other than to address this issue) as I don't think it is "OK" to have to explain your position when you are seeking help, this is not as helpful of an atmosphe as some of the boards I have gone to and that is sad. Understand, I am posting this message, as I did with my last, to simply raise the question of "are these men and women the type of little boys and girls that we want to raise?" Do we want to teach our boys that if they get a women pregnate (and she is married or engaged) wait to see if the other man in her life will take that child before you own up to what you have done. I pray that is not the message that we are sending but sadly, I feel it is exactly the message that I get from this board. I understand the way many of you feel about the OM/OW and OC - however, as a BS our feelings should not have an impact on our spouses sense of responsiblity. Had my wife come to me and told me that she had engaged in this A and now wanted to give our daughter up for adoption (be it to the OM or another family) I would not have respected that decision and I would not have felt she was doing this out of love as some of you imply the OM get's to do. I would have told her the truth, she is doing it so that she can emotionally and physically hide for what she has created and the destruction that it (the A, not the child) could cause in our marriage. I don't believe life is about "muligans" (we got any golfers in the house? See a muligan is when you make a bad shot tell those guys in your party your taking a "muligan" and throw down another ball and re-hit while you act like that first shot did'nt count). I hope that everyone understand that it is inappropriate to challenge someone to defend there postion or to make snide remarks (although I am sure some of you will think much of what I am writing is a snide remark - it isn't, it's sadness that people wanting help or supposibly in the position to help are not welcoming of others who are struggling through these issues) when all they want is advice and help. Let me ask all of you this, what make's the better man: One who will own up to the havoc, destruction and take responsibility for what he has caused or one who will be so self-consumed (in my opinon) as to walk away and say they are "focusing on there families". The time to focus on your families is not once you have "donated sperm" that created another child, the time to "focus" on your family is before this happens. I can tell you as the BS and man that were I to have casued this action I would not in good conscience have been able to walk away and act as though I "did not know". My father raised me to be an ethical man and I pray that I never fail him, me or my family and children. Please understand, I mean none of this as a judgement on others (you pass your own jugement's on yourself and if your are christian wait for God) I mean this to provoke thought in what message are we as a community (albet an internet community) sending if we do not require others to be responsible for what they have wrought? I feel that some of you do not have an understanding of logical and natural consequences for your actions and that scares me as (most of you are raising children). This is not a judgement, but this is what I do, work with challenged (mentally ill) children from homes that are in many ways deficent and as a degreed professional it concerns me when I see so many adults who are hostile, unwelcoming and unwilling to examine what is inside of themselves and there spouse and to discover the honor and dignity of being human. That said, I AM A MAN RAISING A CHILD CREATED BY A OM (JUST LIKE THE ONE'S YOUR H'S CREATED) AND I CAN NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER UNDERSTAND THE EMOTIONAL ABILITY OF AN OM WHO CAN "WALK AWAY" FROM WHAT HE HAS DONE; to do so is way too narraccistic for me to understand. My life is much bigger than that - it is about my wife, my children, our families and our community -not simply me.

RY's Husband:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That said, I AM A MAN RAISING A CHILD CREATED BY A OM (JUST LIKE THE ONE'S YOUR H'S CREATED) AND I CAN NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER UNDERSTAND THE EMOTIONAL ABILITY OF AN OM WHO CAN "WALK AWAY" FROM WHAT HE HAS DONE; to do so is way too narraccistic for me to understand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I am doing the same as you (and I'm further down the road than you are). You are judging the OM that produced your child---I would suggest that you leave this to God. It's also equally possible that an OM would "understand" the pain and confusion that he could inject into a family who is willing to raise <I>his child</I>, and as an act of unselfishness, chooses to bow out of the child's life forever---even though it might pain him terribly.<P>So, incredibly selfish, or perhaps a wonderfully unselfish act---either scenario is possible. Although I can bet in your case the OM's motivation is selfish---it's not for you to judge. It's your job to live your life with moral conviction, being true to your faith, and with compassion for all humanity. God bless you in the restoration of your marriage and your unselfish support of your family.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>AND I CAN NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER UNDERSTAND THE EMOTIONAL ABILITY OF AN OM WHO CAN "WALK AWAY" FROM WHAT HE HAS DONE; to do so is way too narraccistic for me to understand. My life is much bigger than that - it is about my wife, my children, our families and our community -not simply me. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I have to say I agree with you 100%. I never had more respect for my hubby than when he told me. I am going to work on our marriage and make it srtonge again but then I am going to be involved with the Oc. I can not walk away from my own child. he would not have been the man i loved if he could just walk away whether or not I threatened him with our marriage. <P>

K-<BR>Please re-read my post as you have totally taken it out of context. I stated, very clearly, that I am not judging the OM. I am asking an ethical question. I am not saying he is a bad person, husband or father, I don't know nor do I really care. What I am offering is an ethical examination on the willingness and ability of a person to simply "walk away". Yes, in someways it is nice that he wants to do this, yet, in many ways it is indicative of a society that continues to allow people to ingnore what they have done. That was my point - are we ensureing that we raise our children with values and ethics? Not a judgement but an opinion on what I feel is ethical and what is not and how I know that I will raise my children. I am glad that you are further into recovery, however, I am not really sure what you ment to imply by that if it was simply to offer your insight I thank you, but, please forgive me if I am a bit suspious and defensive as I stated in the post you refer, I am struggling with how this board has so much animosity about the thoughts and feelings of others. I am sure that you are wanting to be helpful but, plese do not read into what you believe my motives are as all you will find is genuine concern for the ethics and morals that we all must raise or children with. I know what my wife did was wrong and was terrible and I need to work with her to help heal our marriage. Still, there will forever be another person that is in someway, albet biological, is connected to my family and the mear fact that he is so willing to walk away is perplexing to me. I know that he is struggling with this issue, I have met him and talked with him. I know that his wife is stuggling with this issue as I have talked to her. I also know that were my wife to have carried this child and then given it up to the OM and his family so they could raise it and "adopted" her would have forever changed the way that I see my wife. That is my point, what does this, ethically, say about these people - OM/OW - that they can do this? Does it not in someway stain the relationship they have with others? Should we not be asking if they can do this what else may they be capable of? If we ask those questions then should we not ask if be allowing them to do so we further allow our children to get the wrong message? Just a thought not a judgement nor an inditment, I leave that up to greater powers than I. But, it is in those images (greater powers) that I am task to walk my life in and should I not ask, WWJD? Not in judgement but in practice? Thx-

RY H-<P>I completely agree with your post. My H was willing to accept responsibility for the OC and I respected him for that. I know that he made a mistake, but our moral and ethical centers are only truly tested in times of adversity. Life's challemges are not supposed to paralyze you, they're suypposed to help you discover who you are. My H's parents raised him to be a kind and loving man (which is why I married him) and I would have been hard pressed to understand it if he would not have been willing to take financial and emotional responsibility for his child (even though the OW doesn't want us to be a part of OC life, we fight on) There are way too many single mothers out there who are forced to raise children without the financial and emotional support that is needed. I understand that this has an effect(manny effects) on the son that my h and I share. But that is my h and OW's fault, not OC. And I have read many of the posts that have put the blame on the OP for bringing the Oc into the world. But we must all keep in mind that she could not have done that without the complicity of our spouses! They are equally if not more responsible because H/W made a lifelong commitment to us and the OP did not. I won't say that it has not been a difficult path with the OC. The few times my H and I were allowed to visit were very heartrenching for me. But I stand by my H's decision. <P>On another note... I too have found the post on this site to be a little judgemental. I understand (as a attorney trained in psychology) that part of the healing process is to be able to vent without fear of judgement. And I am sure we have all said some things on this site and in private that upon further reflection we wish we hadn't. I posted once, and the responses were great,but I found myself reluctant to post again because of some of the responses I read to the other posts(not just from the lurkers. We all come from different walks of life and are at different places in our marriages and dealing with this situation. I think everyone should keep that in mind.

<BR>RY's husband,<P>Let me address the concern that the OM is acting irresponsibly. By now I am sure you are well aware that you and/or your wife may unilaterally begin a paternity action against the OM. If you did this, he would adjudicated the father of the child and would be ordered to pay a child support amount of roughly 25% of his net pay. Speaking as someone involved in custody/CS reform, I can tell you that in many cases the guideline CS amount is excessive to the point of punitive. Many couples live, for all practical purposes, hand to mouth, and such a financial burden could destroy them. But do you know what? The family courts really don't care if the OM would suffer financial hardship, lose the family home, and so on. The child support payment is enforced under threat of prison. You can hold him "responsible" by simply picking up the phone and starting a paternity action against him. Because of that fact, arguing that he is not being responsible is a baseless claim, because if you wanted to hold him responsible you could do so. Once you have made the decision to raise the child as your own, you should be quite thankful that the OM doesn't file a paternity action himself and use the child as a means of muscling into your marriage.<P>Whether his decision to bow out of the situation is selfish or selfless is really irrelevant. What matters is your marriage, not him.<P>Bystander

Ry's H,<P>I applaud and appreciate your efforts and understand your reasoning behind your posts. However, as Jenny pointed out, there is a double standard shining through.<P>On one hand you say you do not want this man involved with this child. On the other, you say you don't think it's right he walks away. <P>He can't do both. There is only one way. Perhaps he knows you don't want him involved, so what choice does he have? Walking away seems to be the only choice he has. If he were to file for visitation, custody or whatnot, it would go directly against your comment of you not wanting him to be involved. If he doesn't do anything and does walk away, he's not minding his responsibilites. You're leaving him with no options. <P>I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make. I supposed what it comes down to is this: you don't want him involved and therefore he is not. You got what you wished for, a daughter to raise as your own and the father without involvement. What other avenue is there? I don't see any, other than this, which would produce a loving environment and promising future for your daughter. And isn't that what this is all about? <P>Please take care,<BR>CoR <BR>

RY's H:<P>This board, in particular, can get pretty heated at times. If you're here, you're probably going through what may be the most difficult time in your life. Because this is a MarriageBuilder's board (and I've spent lots of time counseling with Steve Harley), I tend to post directively on how to heal the marriage, from a MarriageBuilder's persepctive.<P>You asked:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That is my point, what does this, ethically, say about these people - OM/OW - that they can do this? Does it not in someway stain the relationship they have with others? Should we not be asking if they can do this what else may they be capable of? If we ask those questions then should we not ask if be allowing them to do so we further allow our children to get the wrong message? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The ethical questions you raise are complex, and they could be argued (persuasively) from several different angles. But then you ask, "what would Jesus do?". I think that's much less ambigious. Jesus would forgive, and continue to live a moral life. My advice (unsolicited, of course ), would be for you to not worry about their ethics---and live YOUR life according to your ethics, to be a good example to the world at large, and your children in particular.<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited May 07, 2001).]

ry's husband, I do not think my H is being unethical, awful person for not being involved in OC';s life. He is being responsive to the needs of his original family, innocent kids, and innocent wife-=me! He is paying incredibly high CS payments to the child. He wanted the child adopted out to a two parent family.The OW did not do it. Would not that have been a better option for child?But the men in this situation lose all rights other than to pay up and face how involved in the child's life they would be. MY H could not be a true father to OC because I cannot accept the damage it would do to my family. I know some here on the boards have accepted OC, and in some cases it works well. In other posts, I see the wife still pained whenever OC is around and faces the betrayal daily with the child's existence. I may be less of a woman for not accepting oC, and by the way I too am trained in psychology field,but I do not think that means I should be a doormat and accept all myH"s obligations or not have him meet his obligations to me and our children. This situation is a difficult one for all involved.There is no easy solution. I think in your case, is somewhat easier to live a life with W's OC than to introduce a OC produced by another woman into an already established family. Further, why do we automatically assume that just some contact with father makes it good>??If my H saw child 1-2 hours a week, which is the amount of time he saw OW. is that sufficient time to parent effectively??HOw would child feel that father is seeing his other kids daily, living with them, attending school events, etc. but OC does not get that? Would it not be better to have a more normal life with people around him/her that love her and are truly involved? The OW and H made a huge mistake in not protecting a pregnancy, and unfortunately the OC does not get the benefit of a normal family. Had the OW really cared about that for OC, adoption would have been the clear choice. IN our case the OW knew H would never leave us and family, and in fact did not want H on permananet basis. So if OW chooses to keep child and raise it as single parent, why is that so wrong?Many single parents provide effective family for children, many dual parent familes are not effective raising kids-look at devastation on this board to see how the families of the betrayed spouse are realing the effects of all this. I applaud your willingness to parent this child and be her true father-but somewhere out there I hope other men will decide to parent these OC too and give them a true home.

RY'H,<P>I am not in your situation, but I do find your questions very interesting. I do theoretical work for a living so the logic that you are applying interests me very much. I would say without much fear of rebuke, that the OM has taken his position out of selfishness, or at least tidiness (the alternative to his current action is very complex).<P>So I would like to ask you a theorectical question. If you were running the world, and you could arrange your current situation to the best advantage of all concerned, what would you have everyone do? My temptation is to qualify this "simple" task with the realities, that there still may be feelings, hurts, and pride amoung all parties involved. Include that as you wish.<P>It seems to me that while I agree with your ethics, I can see the utility of having OM out of the picture at least for awhile. Actually, you have the call here as well. As Bystander said you can definitely involve the OM in a punitive fashion. The difficulty is that it is hard to predict how much that will harm your family, and certainly the innocent people in his family. But you could "request" that OM at least acknowledge the existence of this child, you could even put his name on the birth certificate.<P>However, all of this has a hugh risk for you and your family.<P>The real problem RY'sH is that this is a hughly complex and dynamic situation. If you came here 2,3,4 years from now and your marriage was rock solid. You were squared away with the world, and RY was just as squared away, then such ethical discussions may lead to an ethical conclusion. As opposed to the current situation. <P>Finally, RY'sH I would like to say two things. One, as someone willing to remain in your marriage and raise your child, you will always receive the greatest of respect at this site. <P>The second thing, is that you need to realize that most of the women here have a family, and in some cases have been forced to separate or even divorce their H against their will, because of the CS payments extracted from their family budget to pay for the Other Child ( I don't know of a more polite term, do you?). They see their children suffering for what their H's did, and because of the OW (the child is the instrument of the suffering, not the cause of it). They are very hurt by this and come to vent. Don't misconstrue the venting with the actions. For the most part they are trying their best to hold their marriages together. <P>You see RY'sH your have a decision to make, but in making it you can prevent "your" daughter from suffering. I have every confidence that given your choices and your stated ethics that this young child will be raised in a very good household and the best her parents can provide. They cannot prevent theirs from suffering. They cannot recover the lost income, the lost opportunities, that normally they as W's could have provided. The courts make arbitrary decisions that do not even "consider" that the children of the family exist.<P><BR>Saidly, this is not a physics course where "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." There often isn't fairness as you well know.<P>I look forward to your response. I have a feeling it will spark much discussion and perhaps some very much needed insights.<P>RY'sH in many ways you are a lucky man. You have been blessed with a strong ethical sense, and you have a beautiful child to raise. Finally, hence forth most of the decisions are yours to make. Make them well.<P><BR>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Dear RY's H,<P>Well, I am one of the women on this board who are in your W's position. I believe that I was one of the first to post to her when she first came to this board and posted about her situation. There have been a couple times when I may have come down hard on her, but, being in the same situation, I knew, to an extent, what she was going through, and wanted to get my point across. My H has also posted, and suggested that you come here. I hope that you will continue to read and post, and maybe get your own user name. One of the main things to remember is that everyone has their own opinions on situations such as ours, and some can be very heated in their defence of that opinion. As I have said on other threads, advice is free, you can take it or ignore it, but don't just leave. We really do want to help, and with many of us being in your OM's position, but, they are also paying A LOT of money out to single women who are basically using these men as paychecks. That is the main reason why most of the posts have been the way they are. These women are literally taking food out of other children's mouths, without feeling one ounce of remorse for what they are doing or have done.<P>In our situation, the OM never knew about the pregnancy, as the A was ended before I found out I was expecting. My H chose, from very early on, to claim Abbi as his D. If the OM ever does find out about Abbi, and tries to become involved, I will sue for CS just to keep him away. He is NOT the type of man that I want around my children, and is so money hungry, he wouldn't want to "pay for the privilage" to see Abbi. As each day goes by, Abbi is more and more my H's D, and he loves her as much as our other children. I honestly don't care if the OM ever "takes responsibility" for what we did. You stated that you don't want OM involved in your D's life, but if you force the issue, and he does start to pay CS, he could sue for visitation, or worse, joint custody. I went through a lot of the same feelings of wanting the OM to "pay" for what we did. But have come to realize that to force him to do so could cause him to be involved in our lives for the next 18-20 years. That is the last thing I want to happen! You asked in your last post, WWJD, well, I think that he would just let it go, and raise Hannah as his own, and let the OM get on with his life. I also think that he would make sure that he would always be considered Hannah's "Daddy" on paper as well as in her heart.<P>I seem to remember in one of Regretful's threads that OM's W seems to be "OK" with what her H has done. Well, maybe that is her way of forgiving her H for what has happened, just as you have forgiven your W for what has happened. It doesn't mean that she is saying it is ok what they did, or that she has excused your W or her H. I think that what you and your W need to do now is to concentrate on repairing your marriage togther. I can tell from your posts that you love your W and your D very much. I also feel, in my heart, that you should make your D yours in every way, and legalize the adoption. If you don't want OM in your lives at all, that is the best way to guarantee he stays out of your lives. I'm not sure, legally, if he can do anything after the general 2 years for the assumed paternity, since your W had done the DNA testing on her own, but that would be a concern to me, that he may decide to "take responsibility" later on down the road, and try to take Hannah away with that DNA test as proof of paternity. If he is willing right now to give up any and all rights to your beautiful little girl, take advantage of it. Then you won't have to worry, down the road, that he might try to worm his way back into your lives.<P>I know I got a little long winded, but I wanted to put my 2 cents worth in. I don't want you to be pushed away with most of the responses you have received. I have been very active on this board, and "know" most of these women pretty well, and have not read any hostility in their posts, just very strong opinions, being in the positions that your OM's W is in right now. They seem to be hostile, or angry, because they see the major amounts of money leaving their homes to support a child that is a painful reminder of what their H's have done. We are in the unique situation that our H's have chosen to raise that child, and do so willingly. We need to be understanding of the women's point of view on this board, since the majority of them have been through he!! and back because of what the OW has done to their lives and families. I hope you see my point of view as just that, and I hope that I didn't come off as hostile. I am just trying to help you see, being in your W's shoes, what these other women on this board are going through, and where they are coming from. <P>Oh, also, Bystander is a great person to pose questions to. He knows where to go to find most of the answers to questions you may have. He is here to help any of us who ask, and often showes up when he sees the need. I know that my first post to him was very heated, but that was before I knew what he was trying to do was to help my H understand what his rights were in our situation. He gives GREAT advice, that may help you in a great way. So, don't get upset if he posts something that seems hostile, just take the advice, or ignore it(althought, I would suggest taking that advice), because he is here to help.<P>Again, I hope that you continue to post, and maybe get your own user name. It is easier to post to you as a seperate person, I feel funny calling you RY's H. We are all here to help eachother through this very trying time, and I for one, love each and every person on this board, as they have helped me immensly at one time or another. This is a great place to come for support, advice, or to just vent. We hope you stay!!!<P>Tigger<P>PS My H's user name is Sailorman59, if you have any questions. Also, there is K, GLynton, Floored, Middleman, Paul Moyers, (Sorry if I missed any, I'm just siting those that I am familuar with) who have helped us out in MANY ways. All of them have different stories, and different outcomes in our situation. Listen to them, for they have been through everything you are just now beginning to go through.<BR>Sorry for rambling yet again

I registered my H under a new name if he feels he would like to post anymore. <BR>I find it amazing that while I the "OW" in my of your situations am viewed as wanting to use OM for a paycheck, yet I was making the same points as my H. Granted I may not have been as clear as my H, but we both have the same feelings regarding our situation. That "our" OM is allowed to walk away from this situation b/c he can, yet it is appalling that he doesn't have a sense of remorse or obligation to the child we created. When I posted the messages of wanting to forget it happened and so on, these were not my feeling, they were actual words the OM used in regards to our situation. How wrong is it to say to me, the OW w/ "his" child, I am letting your H be the father. I was taking a huge risk of losing everything I ever wanted in my M b/c I loved my child. My H has made the choice to raise or D as his own, but it wasn't his responsiblity to begin with. When OM found out the baby was his, he should have, like an adult said we need to sit down w/ our spouses and figure out what is in the best interest of this child. I HATE the term OTHER CHILD, it is a child. It should be INNOCENT CHILD b/c that is what they are. Brought into this world in less than perfect circumstances. I understand many of your opinions and respect them as they are just that, your opinions. They are not right or wrong. "Our" OM just left and decided that regardless of my H choice he would not be a father to the child we created. It WOULD be his responsiblity first, then when my H agreed to stay and work out our M it would fall to him. That still doesn't excuse the fact the OM ran away from any sense of obligation to "his" child. I still stand firm in my OPINION that OM cannot be a good man, father, etc. To "our" child, his child with W or any future child, as he has no sense of what being a parent should be. I risked everything in doing what I did, I am the one being responsible and owning up to my end of the bargin. Not running away and saying one child is more important than another b/c they were born into the "original family". All children deserve a father, if there is a man willing to take on the responsiblity that another man created, then that makes them the best father's in the world. Didn't Joesph raise and love Jesus even though he wasn't his biological father. The lord I am sure would have stepped in but considering he was "away", I think he found the best father for his son. These man who are willing to stay in a M and make things work for their families and children are nothing less than saints.

Regretfully Yours:<P>You said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I find it amazing that while I the "OW" in my of your situations am viewed as wanting to use OM for a paycheck, yet I was making the same points as my H.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here were the points you made in your initial post:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>my H talking to Om while OM was shaking, sweating, he was not even able to make full sentences over three words. How pathetic is that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My H said it looked like OM would have p*ssed his pants. I am glad I wasn't there,I would have laughed so hard they would have sent someone in to make sure everything was okay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The kicker, even more funny than the first part, that if my marriage doesn't work out with my H I can still go after OM for CS. He deserves ALL the misery he is in!! Sorry, sad little man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I pray the only thing she has inhereited from was her looks and not any of the sorry sick little traits that make him a piece of s*it for a human being. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it's <I>how</I> you made your initial points that had the posters responding to you in such a way. "What would Jesus do??" Indeed.

RY's H- <BR>Your post really makes me sad. You imply we betrayed wives are disrespectful to you and your wife, worse yet, now we are crummy parents teaching irresponsibility, yet you refuse to acknowledge the very real human struggles and moral deliemmas within our lives, or even your own! (you ARE still holding that double standard!!)<P>I sincerely regret getting involved in this post. And behind your surface talk about ethical theory, I'll bet you have a whole LOT of perfectly normal seething rage at the XOM. It is easier to point that anger at the "irresponsible" XP and forgive our repentant spouses whom we know and love, isn't it?<P>CofR said:"He can't do both. There is only one way."<BR>Which is it?

Of course Joseph was willing to raise Jesus as his own...he was told to by God. Jesus was God incarnate. IT is not like God has an affair with Mary and Jesus was an oc. That is just plain blasphemy. What has that to do with anything? Are you saying those of us who are not willing to hace oc in our lives are not being very Christian like because we are not doing what Joseph did? I hope I just totally misunderstood what you said. If so I apologize profusely for getting in a tuff.<P>As to why oc is called other child and not innocent child, well its just that all the children involved are innocent and I think it would be real confusing if we used ic since we wouldnt know which children we were refering to. <P>Now to address the issue of my H. I personally take offense when it is "appaling" that he could "walk away from his responsibilities". My H is not appalling. I have utmost respect and admiration for him and who are you to put him in the same class with your om. You om may well be a jerk, but that doesnt mean that all the men involved in this siuation are. Whatch the generalizations please. In our case my H did not walk away from oc. My H tried to get visitation and ow freaked out and dropped her own cs case and shagged. She moved with no forwarding address. Wouldnt give it to us. We tried and I still have the emails to prove it. Now what are we supposed to do in our situation? We make no $ to speak of so hiring a lawyer to find her and so on and so forth is out of the question. Should we strain our marriage a little more to scrape $ together for the next 3 yrs to find ow and do it? Oh but then seh could say we didnt care bc we waited so long to find oc. Plus what will that do to oc? My H is a wonderful H and father and I feel sorry for oc since ow is selfish enough to want his $, but thinks H should not be involved in oc's life. Once again we have no rights. Had my H disappeared she could have gone to all kinds of agencys to track him down and extort his $..at no cost to her. But what happens to her when she takes the child and runs? What agency do we have to turn to? This is a good one for Ry's H to answer for me since he works in this area..well, at least in the social work area.<P>Hope I didnt get too upset but I am sure you understand. Dont you get defensive when someone trashes your spouse? Especially when we got kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. I tend to get uptight...hope I didnt sound "hostile"<P>broken_wings

K- I think you took my posting as more than my feelings, those were my feeling. I have a right to voice them regarding my situation. Yes, I found it funny. Still do. Here I thought the man I had an A with was a man, but it turned out that he was nothing more than a little boy. How I regret what I did to my H and children. Nothing can change it now, I am wanting to raise my children in a happy, honest and stable home. I compromised that, and I am sorry. However, I feel raising children with good ethics and morals require honesty with these children, all IC. My daughter will know of her life and the terriable circumstances around it, yet it doesn't change who she is. She is our daughter and we love the same. I did something wrong, but it is not something to hide in the closet. Children will learn to become better people if their parents are honest with them. As I had said in my previous posting, if OM was an adult about this maybe things and my view would be different, but it's not.

RY,<BR>You posted<BR>***That "our" OM is allowed to walk away from this situation b/c he can***<P>You had the same option, it is called adoption. It sounds as though because YOU chose not to consider this option ( a decision you made for the both of you I might add ) you want OM to suffer along with you. From reading your posts I don't get the feeling you are interested in the well being of the child. All I hear is anger and a desire for revenge against OM.<P>Jtigger

I still am missing something I feel is rather important. I'm not sure what it is yet, so I'm going to ask another question. <P>Say this married man decides he DOES want to take responsibility. Say, you file for support. Say he files for visitation, perhaps even joint custody. Then what? Are you going to say to him "No way! You are not worthy!" Or will you go along with the courts order without fighting? <P>You see, you can't have a man say "I take responsibility" if you've already taken his choices away. YOu have filed an order not allowing him to see or talk to your daughter. You closed the door. He simply has no other choice but to walk away. <P>As I said, maybe I'm missing something. If so, please let me know. <P>And why is it we should only teach our sons to take care of their pregnant girlfriends? Aren't we also supposed to teach our daughters that they have total control over their bodies and have the ability to say no in the first place? That's what I'm trying to teach my daughters, that they have the power, the control and should have the desire to say no until they are ready to take full responsibility for their actions. Just a thought.

I am not saying that those of you who do not want the OC/IC in your lives are wrong, who am I to say what is right for you, all I am saying is there is still a child out there who has a "father", as in my case her "father" is someone else's H. Why does that change the fact that it is still their father? Please be free in posting your opinions, they are welcome, it doesn't mean thoguh that they have to beaccepted by someone else. No, Mary did not have an A, but she did have a child by "someone" else while M, did she not? I am just saying that any man willing to take on another man's responsiblity is looked apon inmy eyes as someone very special, someone willing to look beyond their own selfish needs to attend to the needs of a child, regardless who that child belongs too.