Quipper,

I see the stated conclusion that there is no corrleation between higher sex drive and Voyerism. I see chemical studies.

All the links I offered to you early contain even more information. At least some of the information available says that the use of drugs or hormones is used to decrease the sex drive of the parphelia disorders....even though there seems to be no evidence that sex drive has much to do with it. Does that mean that increasing the amount of sex in the bedroom may help? Well since this kind of sexual behavior develops from an early age, and typically those who suffer are typified by an inability to form close relationships with people....probably not. My worry is that it seems to be your answer to practically everything. I too think a strong and vital sex life is a necessary ingredient to most marriages....but you have a tendency to single out the ladies....imply that their prudishness is the the cause of even sexual deviancy. I am not a feminazi...nor am I a prude. People who truly suffer from these disorders need serious treatment....and the bandaid approach of increased marital sex, is not going to be enough...and is probably misleading.

When someone shows up on this board with problems like these (which are not your run of the mill problems), I give them the best advice I can "This board is made up of amateurs. We are not doctors, please see a professional counselor who is trained to help with this problem."

To me, if a spouse has a husband who has a sexually deviant drive, and he goes out limp in the morning, then the wife has assisted in satisfying one part of the sex drive.

People with sexual deviances....by their nature, are aroused in a different way than you and I. All of us engage in a bit of voyeurism...porn, eavesdropping that sort of thing. But a voyeur needs, and is compelled to, seek sexual gratification in this way...even if it means crossing the line and purposely invading someone else's privacy. It is characterized by sexual dysfunction in normal relationships....so it may not be possible for a wive to "send him out limp".

I don't see definitive studies to show that there is no diminuation in a deviant sexual impulse, if the range of marital sex options is maximized.

Perhaps that study does not yet exist....but until such time as you or someone else does....does that mean you are entitled to claim that it might work? Well...you can...but you are likely to be challenged and ask to show evidence that deviant sexual impulses are diminished by maximized sexual options. So far...none of the literature I have managed to find (and you know I spent a great deal of time looking) says anything about this.

You seem to be saying that there is no point in incerasing marital frequency, optimizing timing, or expanding the range of visual and sensual fulfillment, because the deviant sex drive is independent of the satisfaction maximally possible in the marital bedroom.

And it may be. The studies that I read, and that I linked for you...certainly suggest that these sexual tendencies develop independently and negatively effect a paraphilas ability to function in normal sexual situations. I am not saying it is impossible that it might help someone somewhere...but I see no evidence of it from what I read....and so I will not suggest to some of the these women in great pain...that they must simply provide more sex when they are reeling from the discovery that he is watching and masturbating to young neighbors in the shower.

I see a line of reasoning based on sex drive measures and testosterone levels that could lead to a no carry-over hypothesis. I don't see the testing of the no-carr-over hypothesis as having been tested.

I invite you to look for it then. I have amply supported the reasons I think as I do with a plethora of links and quotes. You have offered nothing to me by way of research to support the things that you say. I promise you that if you do....I will weigh them against my own sources and consider them.

I feel intuitively that the hypothesis is at least partly incorect, if not largely incorrect. What percentage of deviants could not benefit, to any degree, from any increased visual and sensual satisfaction in the marital bedroom? What about decreased marital bedroom options?

With deepest regret....your intuition is not substantial evidence to change my mind when the preponderance of psychological literature is so available to me. There is a treatment I read about...a reconditioning....that begins by having sexual deviants maturbate, beginning arousal with their object of fantasy...and at the last minute before completion switching to something healthier...but that intuitively tells ME that they aren't aroused with normal sex to begin with...doesn't it?

I see why you think I am wrong to suggest increasing marital sexual satisfction to JDNTX, as at least a partial answer to her husband's voyerism, whether strictly speaking his voyerism was technically a crime or not. I will give your ideas some thought. Thank you for brining that concept to my attention,

The legal criteria (which I already cited) of criminal voyeurism is really not complex. The situation that JDNTX describes clearly meets that standard. Please explain to me how is does not to you? On a personal note...when I was younger, one of the boys in my neighborhood was a peeping tom. He used to go on his roof and look down into my best friends bathroom. There was a curtain...one of those cafe styles which blocked any normal viewing. He was caught by her father....and he was arrested and prosecuted when other people came forward with tales of other instances of invasion of privacy. He was arrested later that year again for same thing.

I don't see the JDNTX post on the board anymore. My mention of Silva Method as a means for Raz, <wife> to deal with her husband's problems was in the post just prior to JDNTX's post, so I presumed that she had read my self-discipline approach, and was looking for furhter ideas. So I suggested enhancing the marital bedroom.

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph or what happened to the JDNTX post...although I have quoted it in entirety at least twice on this thread. Again, I have no problem with the Silva Method OR enhancing the marital bedroom. I did not object to you suggesting it to <wife> but rather objected to it as a way of curbing sexual deviancy.

Single men are prohibited from being shepherds in some places. The rationale is that married men won't bother the sheep. Single men are not to be trusted. Why? Because they do not have a maximized or minimized marital bedroom option.

How nice for the sheep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Dear Star,

Thank you for your reply, and your efforts to better sharpen my posting help to ohters.

Thank you for re-posting JDNTX post, because I think it is now deleted from its original location on the thread. My interest is in being a better poster of ideas for help to people with problems.

The importance, to me, that I posted about Silva in my first post on that thread, is to show that I did, in fact, suggest a method of improving the chances of handling the difficulties of different sex drives through self-discipline and abstanance, and I am not the pure porn advocate that many seem to consider me. I have some balance.

I will consider your articles and evidence more carefully. It is not obvious to me, from your articles that a better marital bedroom cannot reduce deviant disires.

How can you say good for the sheep, when your theory is that there is no difference whether there is no martial bedroom, an insufficinet marital bedroom or an overflowing marital bedroom?

I focus more on male problems because it is much more unusal for a woman to get in trouble over it.

I heard of an unreported incident where a female baby sitter provided oral sex to a 5 year old boy. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it is just not considered as much of a problem.

My wife's sex drive is higher than mine for about 10 minutes every day. I just don't know when that 10 minutes is going to occur. Sometimes it is as my wife is going to sleep. My wife goes to sleep somewhere beteen 9 pm and 3 AM. My wife usually does not let me know when the 10 minutes is going to begin. Sometimes I take a nap early, sometimes I try to stay up late, hoping to be paying attention when the 10 minutes begins. Often I am alseep when the 10 minutes occurs. Once my wife said to me, "We have missed so many chances to make love."

Quipper

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I heard of an unreported incident where a female baby sitter provided oral sex to a 5 year old boy. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it is just not considered as much of a problem. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Provided? This makes it sound as if it is something the 5 year old would seek or want. Your choice of words is interesting, and parallels wording I've only ever heard from the excerpts of NAMBLA speeches they put on the news.

Things a 5 year old seeks: Spongebob Squarepants, Blues Clues, Tigger, Nintendo, Golden books...

Things an adult seeks: sexual gratification through others

Words that most people use to describe this behavior: molest, force, pedophilia, rape, assault, sexual assault, perversion.

Provide? It's amazing how unobtrusive and nonviolating your descriptions make the sexual abuse of children sound. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Quipper,

The importance, to me, that I posted about Silva in my first post on that thread, is to show that I did, in fact, suggest a method of improving the chances of handling the difficulties of different sex drives through self-discipline and abstanance, and I am not the pure porn advocate that many seem to consider me. I have some balance.

That's good to know. Maybe it would help if you told me what you mean by balance.

I will consider your articles and evidence more carefully. It is not obvious to me, from your articles that a better marital bedroom cannot reduce deviant disires.

When "better marital bedroom" translates into the use of pornography as a way of improving sex....then I can show plenty of problems with that. The majority of the information I read....shows a relationship between porn use and development of sexual deviancy...not the treatment.

Here's a good example (but I promise you plenty more if you'd like)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by Dr.Victor B. Cline, PhD - April 1999

In over 25 years I have treated approximately 350 males afflicted with sexual addictions (sometimes referred to as: sexual compulsions). In about 94% of the cases I have found that pornography was a contributor, facilitator or direct causal agent in the acquiring of these sexual illnesses. Patrick Carnes, the leading U.S. researcher in this area, also reports similar findings. In his research on nearly 1000 sex addicts as reported in his "Dan 't Call it Love", he stated: "Among all addicts surveyed 90% of the men and 77% of the women reported pornography as significant to their addiction."

I found that nearly all of my adult sexual addicts' problems started with porn exposure in childhood or adolescence (often eight years and older). The typical pattern was exposure to mild porn or sexual abuse (by friends, sibs, older individuals, or accidentally discovering the father's porn) with increasing frequency of exposure over time and eventual later addiction. This was nearly always sooner or later accompanied by masturbation.

This addiction was followed by an increasing desensitization to the materials' pathology, escalation to increasingly varied, aberrant, and "rougher" kinds of erotic materials, and eventually to acting out the sexual fantasies they were exposed to. This might include exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls, soliciting prostitutes, brief affairs, and even on occasion child molest and forced sex , most of the damage was through compulsive infidelity (sometimes infecting the wife with venereal diseases) and a destruction of trust in the marital bond which in many cases ultimately led to divorce and a breaking up of the family.

Many wives found their husband preferring fantasy sex (they would catch them masturbating to pornography) rather than make love with them, their partner. This had devastating effects on the marriage. One of my (patient) wives, in great pain, confronted her husband, "What do you see in those two dimensional faceless women that I can't give you as a loving wife--who is flesh and blood, a real person and committed to you?" The men never had an answer. To some extent they enjoyed sexual relations with their wives but most preferred the fantasy sex with masturbation because "these women" could do anything and were perfect inform and appearance! While some wives initially blamed themselves as possibly being responsible for their husband's problem they soon found that being extra affectionate with the husband in their intimate relations never solved the problem or stopped the "acting out" behavior or the constant lies and deception. (emphasis provided for Quipper)

I found that once addicted, whether to just the pornography or the later pattern of sexual acting out--they really had lost their "free agency." It was like a drug addiction. And in this case their drug was sex. They could not stop the pattern of their behavior no matter how high risk it was for them or terrible the potential consequences.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never suggested that providing SF to our husbands is not a goal toward marital happiness and release. It is the introduction of pornography as sex therapy for frigidity or as a cure for sexual deviancy which doesnj't hold water....and which you cannot substantiate with ANY research at all.

How can you say good for the sheep, when your theory is that there is no difference whether there is no martial bedroom, an insufficinet marital bedroom or an overflowing marital bedroom?

The sheep thing was joke (wink emoticon?) but the truth is that I have NEVER said that there is no difference in the happiness of a marriage when there is sexual compatibility....only that the introduction of pornography can cause more problems instead of relieving them.

I focus more on male problems because it is much more unusal for a woman to get in trouble over it.

Actually you don't. You focus on how women CAUSE male problems. At least that how it appears to me.

I heard of an unreported incident where a female baby sitter provided oral sex to a 5 year old boy. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it is just not considered as much of a problem.

Your use of the word "provided" also bothers me for similar reasons. It's as if this was a service of some kind. It's almost as though you refuse to refer to pedophilia as deviant. Could you please explain your stand on this issue so that I can tell whether you think that some sexual relationships with children are acceptable to you or not?

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Quipper ---

I was reading through some of your posts, because one in particularl caught my eye.

Porn is most generally created through the abuse of women who NEED money. Desperate women will do desperate things to earn money. Many of the 'women' in porn films are not women at all but rather young girls who are runaways, kidnap victims, etc. and have been promised something in return for the obvious abuse of their bodies.

When it becomes accepted as a form of entertainment or 'fantasy' for a man to watch PORN while making love to his wife as a manner of 'balance' within the relationship - the simple fact is - them man needs serious HELP.

It is so sickening to constantly be told how much men NEED sex, when the reality is - it is a God give GIFT, and it is not any more a NEED for men than it is for women.

The simple reality is --- THERE is no NEED so GREAT that it must be fulfilled through the ABUSE of another person. The creation of PORNOGRAPHY is ABUSIVE.

Pornography degenerates women to the level of an object. WOMEN are NOT objects. WE are people. WE have feelings. There is no reason to accept pornography, pedephilia, or any of the other abusive sex acts as acceptible in any way or form within a marriage. To indicate that you have used these in any form to BALANCE your relationship, indicates that you lack balance and emotional stability in REALITY LIVING.

The abuse of women/men, children, or any other creature for sexual gratification/fulfillment/satisfaction is EVIL and should not be tolerated on this forum or any other place. There is no room for ABUSE in our lives.

Jan