star*fish,

You beat Quipper by the massive majority of 8606 to 426! Although in the last couple of months (which is as long as I've been here) he's been about as active as you. I'm pleased to hear that you're in training as a counsellor and I think you'll be good (in fact you're pretty good already).

If both of you want to debate porn some more do feel free but it seems to me that you've both said just about all there is to say and now risk repeating yourselves.

A further thought of mine on Christians and courtesy (someone should start a thread on that topic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )...

Maybe one of the problems is that on the web we have only written words and none of the other signals like facial expressions or body language so we may misinterpret how something was meant.

lovesaved....YES! LOL....let's get back to our regularly scheduled program here. I have written NUMEROUS threads about communication on the internet and the problems some folks have with what they view as insults or disrepect. The last thread I wrote looks a bit like this one of yours. It was called:

Warning! I don't like the people who post to me!

There appears to be some hard feelings on the board right now from newcomers who feel unwelcome and unhappy about the posting practices and replies.

There are some public aspects and private aspects of this board. This a public forum that is privately owned. So while almost everyone is allowed to post here.....only MAJOR and consistent problems result in someone being asked to leave the site.

These are my personal opinions (so give them the weight you wish) and tips for posting here:

*expect some posters to rub you the wrong way...it's a big world and not everyone agrees or perceives things in the same light. Some people express those differences respectfully...some don't....you can't control it.

*communication styles are different....some posters are kind and tactful, some are direct or abrasive. Most are trying to help. The world and this forum are full of individuals, and like the world...you'll like some and dislike some.

*don't expect to be able to control or limit who posts on your threads....or even which way the thread goes...it's not realistic and will drive you crazy. If you want a certain poster to respond to you....put their name in the title, but that is never going insure that the rest of the posters can read and post at their will...just like you can.

*don't make assumptions about posters or situations without doing your homework and understand the HISTORY of a problem. It's easy to misunderstand posts if you see a response in the single context of one thread. Many posters here have been conversing for months or years and are commenting on more than is written in the thread in question.

*try not to take things personally...usually they aren't.

*if you must assume something...assume the best until proven otherwise....don't just react and lash out, but try asking questions and getting more information if something strikes you the wrong way.

*don't expect to get someone kicked off the site for being "mean" to you. It just does not happen. It takes alot to get banned from this site, so learning tolerance and detachment are essential to feeling good about your time here.

*only part of the responsibilty for feeling insulted lies in the disrespectful poster....the greatest part...is the responsibility of the listener. This isn't a marriage or friendship...or even real life...it's an anonymous message board where the majority of what each individual can realistically control is their own perception and reactions...not other people here.

*the best way to deal with someone who you feel is being unfair to you....is avoid them and not respond. You can notify the mods...but as I mentioned before...don't expect any serious reaction unless the attack is obscene or relentless over time. When you respond defensively or make judgements about others...expect more responses from the person you are trying to avoid.

*come here with an open mind....not to teach or judge but to LEARN and you will get the maximum benefit from this site. Different perspectives can open new avenues and opportunities if you check your ego at the door and realize we are all students of life and marriage.

*don't expect fairness, consideration, sympathy or sensitivity. This isn't a therapy office. Encourage those things....YES...but don't expect them because this forum is OPEN to all but the very distructive few who have blatantly misused it. People come here with bias, hurt, history etc. and the advice WILL be peppered with all the flavors of the people who inhabit it.

*if you are emotionally affected by the reponses you get on this board....it is not a safe place for you...consider your health and don't post here.

*when you habitually whine about your treatment here....most people will dismiss your grievances. Defend yourself in a respectful manner without alot of drama if you need to.

With all of that said....I urge everyone, to practice good communication skills and controlling LBs for your relationships in the real world. Bad habits that are practiced here in this anonymous place are not so easily compartmentalized that they won't spill into your marriage and real life relationships. The best way to be HEARD is to adjust your style to the audience, really listen, and communicate respectfully.

Here are some others that pertain directly to the issue of communication:

Are You Practicing Stopping LBs on MB? by Kayla Andy

Judgement Call/Communication Help

All that is Written

Dear Star and MBers,

It sometimes occurs that there is an apparent difference in the sex drive of the individuals in a marriage. Often, the man has a larger drive, and this leads to some problems, such as porn, voyerism, and adultery.

When I post, I often point out two directions for the upset wife. One is to work on restraint and self-disciplne. My wife and I took the Silva Method some time ago. I feel that the course helped us in several aspects. Certainly counseling is an avenue. Are there other self-improvemetn courses that you feel might help a couple who wish to approach the problem of the difference in drives, by helping the husband cut back?

I feel that Middle-Eastern countries are having such difficulties because they don't have rehab programs. There are many volunteer organizations and people, who make self-improvement work in the West, like the Salvation Army and the Catholic Charities. Many individuals are willing to forgive and help those coming out of prison, into our communities. The Middle East does not have this type of support network.

Thanks for Takola's reference on using the URL. I believe I got it to work for The Love Diet. I see that TOOMUCHCOFFEEEMAN has created and MB Garrage.

STEADFAST AND COMMITTED:

Can we agree to disagree? As our threadstarter, LOVESAVED pointed out, I am starting to repeat myself. I encourage you to countinue to express your ideas.

Blessings,

Quipper
Husband of 28 years, raised 2 challenging kids, still struggling

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sometimes occurs that there is an apparent diffference in the sex drive of the individuals in a marriage. Often, the man has a larger drive, and this leads to some problems, such as porn, voyerism, and adultery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes Quipper, I know this is is what you say. What I am afraid of....is that someone may believe it. The causes for paraphelia (voyeurism is in this category) is defined as this in psychology books:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is unclear what causes a paraphilia to develop. Psychoanalysts theorize that an individual with a paraphilia is repeating or reverting to a sexual habit that arose early in life. Behaviorists suggest that paraphilias begin through a process of conditioning. Nonsexual objects can become sexually arousing if they are repeatedly associated with pleasurable sexual activity. Or, particular sexual acts (such as peeping, exhibiting, bestiality) that provide especially intense erotic pleasure can lead the person to prefer that behavior. In some cases there seems to be a predisposing factor such as difficulty forming person-to-person relationships.

Nathan, Gorman and Salkind (1999) provide the following survey of current theories regarding the etiology of paraphilias. Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors learn to imitate and is later reinforced for the behavior. Compensation models suggest that these individuals are deprived of normal social sexual contacts and thus seek gratification through less socially acceptable means. Physiological models focus on the relationship between hormones, behavior and the central nervous systems with a particular interest in the role of aggression and male sexual hormones.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't think you can lump what is described by EVERY medical/psychological text written as dysfunctional in the same group as porn use and adultery. It is clearly illegal, and not merely a sin. Sin is not illegal, but crime is. Voyeurism is considered a crime.

To star*fish and Quipper-

OK you two - my thread has now been so well and truly hijacked that I no longer care and I'm going to join in.

Quipper wrote:
"...some problems, such as porn, voyerism, and adultery."

These things cannot be put in the same category and here I share star*fish's concern. Adultery is virtually always wrong (except when the spouse agrees to it, maybe due to severe disability, but that must be very rare). Many Christians would disagree with me even then.

Voyeurism is also almost always wrong. I'll ignore the legal issue and stick to the moral question. If someone gets a kick out of disporting themselves so there is effective consent on their part (also rare I would suggest) AND your partner enthusiastically agrees to your watching then it's theoretically possibly that it's OK, but it's a one in a million shot.

Porn is different and I think on this you can agree to the extent that if it's used within marriage by mutual enthusiastic agreement it's OK. You have both said this many times.

Let me sum up your differences:

Quipper want's his W to accept more porn in their relationship, which she doesn't seem to want to do. He and her need to work that out. I'd say to Quipper that if you can't get that acceptance don't look to MB for support for your position by talking about prudishness or frigidity or anything else. Negotiate it with your W not with us.

star*fish is personally against porn because of the wider impact it has and is taking a stand. She accepts that it's OK for other people where it is used within POJA. The only point I have to make about this is that making a stand is only effective when other people see your example. Passing the couchie on when everyone else takes a puff makes a statement. Avoiding porn isn't seen by anyone else so doesn't have any impact.

Please both of you don't react too quickly to this but read it a second time and see whether you can find common ground.

And don't give me woolly niceness about agreeing to differ. Cerri and I don't do nice.

OK you two - my thread has now been so well and truly hijacked that I no longer care and I'm going to join in.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> guilty as charged.

Quipper wrote:
"...some problems, such as porn, voyerism, and adultery."

These things cannot be put in the same category and here I share star*fish's concern. Adultery is virtually always wrong (except when the spouse agrees to it, maybe due to severe disability, but that must be very rare). Many Christians would disagree with me even then.

Adultery is always a sin even with consent...but I'm not interested in coming between an H and W and the POJA. In a few states, it's still a crime too...but like in the miltary it isn't enforced. I don't sanction adultery, and I think there are many reasons for adultery besides problems in the bedroom....many!!!!

Voyeurism is also almost always wrong. I'll ignore the legal issue and stick to the moral question. If someone gets a kick out of disporting themselves so there is effective consent on their part (also rare I would suggest) AND your partner enthusiastically agrees to your watching then it's theoretically possibly that it's OK, but it's a one in a million shot.

Voyeurism is a crime....illegal...always wrong. Staged voyeurism is not voyeurism. It is also considered by all of medicine as dysfunctional sexual behavior. And here's the catch....the scenario you presented above...will not satisfy a true voyeur...anymore than pornography does...it is the desire to look at people WITHOUT their knowledge that is the thrill for them. It also has not been correlated with high sex drives that frigid women who ban porn acerbate.

Porn is different and I think on this you can agree to the extent that if it's used within marriage by mutual enthusiastic agreement it's OK. You have both said this many times.

Yep....our only disagreement is that I don't see it as good sex therapy in all but rare instances. I would not recommend it....not because of my own desire not to use porn...but because it is unproven as an effective tool to improve marriages.

Further....while the controversy over whether sexual addiction is really an addiction...the fact is...there IS a controversy. There are enough experts who think it IS an addiction for me to caution people about the POSSIBLE danger of becoming obsessed with it. Judging from the things that men like Kasey, HitchHiker, and many others on this board say....it works on them like an addiction.

Let me sum up your differences:

Quipper want's his W to accept more porn in their relationship, which she doesn't seem to want to do. He and her need to work that out. I'd say to Quipper that if you can't get that acceptance don't look to MB for support for your position by talking about prudishness or frigidity or anything else. Negotiate it with your W not with us.

This I agree with, although we haven't previously discussed this much.

star*fish is personally against porn because of the wider impact it has and is taking a stand. She accepts that it's OK for other people where it is used within POJA. The only point I have to make about this is that making a stand is only effective when other people see your example. Passing the couchie on when everyone else takes a puff makes a statement. Avoiding porn isn't seen by anyone else so doesn't have any impact.

Ah....but all these posts are quite visible I think. Did you cerri's post on JFO about the VS fashion show? They can't see me resist pornography, but I can raise discussions here and perhaps some open minded people will re examine the evidence pro and con and think about it. In that way, I can exact some small change. I can put it in the forefront of people's thoughts. I can ask questions that challenge people's thinking as well as my own.


You forgot the difference we have about pedophilia. Quipper thinks that this is the result of adults "loving" children too much or with the wrong kind of "love". I think it's about abuse....the antithesis of love.


Please both of you don't react too quickly to this but read it a second time and see whether you can find common ground.

And don't give me woolly niceness about agreeing to differ. Cerri and I don't do nice.

Why is it important that we agree at all? There is just too little common ground to form much of a bond. My advice is based on the concepts that this site was designed around....and his are not. It's okay to be controversial...but those who are....must expect to be challenged. I intend to keep doing that.

We can be civil and respectful however, without being cozy or being buddies. I find his demeanor to be respectful and courteous....it's simply his ideas and sometimes overly graphic descriptions that I can't embrace.

Please don't let it bother you if we don't get along. We all must post from our own sense of responsibility and perspective. But thanks for trying to mediate the sandbox. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Dare I join in on this discussion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I haven't read all the posts but read this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Bible is silent on pornography.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Whatever is TRUE, whtever is NOBLE, whatever is RIGHT, whatever is PURE, whatever is LOVELY, whatever is ADMIRABLE-- if anything is EXCELLENT or PRAISEWORTHY- think about such things." Phillipians 4:8

Pornography is none of those things. First of all, in alot of pornography, there are underage girls. Sometimes children. The men who film these things. ICK! It literally GROSES ME OUT to even think about it... but the men who film these things. Okay... here are two people having SEX in front of camerman! How pure, admirable, and noble can that possibly be? "Oh you are so noble... you have sex on video so that other people can watch you and get turned on. How admirable and lovely."

If it was truly admireable, lovely, and good, then there would be no shame associated with it. It would not hurt lives.

As a woman, if my husband had used pornography to get himself "turned on"... what an insult to me! A man has to view another couple having sex... a naked couple... in order to have sex with their spouse?

Quipper said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I encourage women, or anyone, coming to MB, with a religious or ethical block to enjoying porn with their spouse, to re-evaluate the underpinings of their block.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is sooooooooo disturbing!!!!! Pornography has destroyed marriages, has literally put some men in bondage becuase they become addicted, has led to prostitution (need I menion all the children/women sold in other countries into prostitution for the sake of men's lusts?), and... well, I for one... when I was married, had eyes for only one man and one man alone... my husband. And he had eyes only for me. It would literally have disgusted both of us to view two copulating naked people on the t.v. screen of our bedroom. If that means I have a block, well, I thank God for that block, or whatever you want to call it!!

I am divorced, but one thing I can be very, very thankful for is that I had a very faithful husband. He never gave me a single reason to fear about him and other woman. He did not view pornography and would never have suggested that we do that. I just cannot imagine any woman truly being happy that her husband views pornography, esp. as foreplay. I also don't understand how any man could be happy if his wife needed to view pornography in order to get aroused towards him.

Quipper, you say people who aren't into pornography have a "religious" or "ethical" "block." ?? No, but we do desire to live pure, wholesome, good lives. And when I was married... well, like I said, I did not need pornography to turn me onto my husband. My love for him was enough.

I became a Christian when I was 12 years old and it was the best decision of my life. I love the Lord and I am so very, very thankful that He helps me to live a pure, good life in which I am not addicted to other things.

Oh... you remember Jeffrey Dahmer. He murdered a bunch of people? It began with pornography. He spoke in a few interviews about how he began viewing pornography... first magazines and then more... and how soon, it wasn't enough. He needed more "stimulation"; thus, he murdered.

I can see NOTHING good that could come from viewing pornography.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We can be civil and respectful however, without being cozy or being buddies.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish, I agree. This world will never be a peaceful, everyone-get-along world because there are those with values and those without, there are those who think it's okay to steal and those who don't, there are those who murder and those who don't, there are Hitlers and there are Mother Theresas.

It is more important to speak or defend truth and goodness than it is to get along.

Take Martin Luther King. He was a man of peace. He died for it. He angered people because he stood up for what was right and he spoke out against what was wrong. He was more concerned with that than he was with "getting along" with everybody.

That's how I view things. If it is possible, I want to live at peace with everyone, but if it is at the cost of moral compromise... I will chose to have someone hate me, judge me, etc. rather than to smile at what is wrong or heinous.

From an article:

In response to the evils that pornography works on our state, Governor McCallum has declared October to be "Pornography Awareness Month." In an official proclamation, the Governor acknowledged that "pornography presents youth with a false and distorted image of human sexuality, devoid of love, commitment and responsibility," and that it "leads men into destructive sexual addictions and contributes to the breakup of marriages."

From another article:

"The truth is that Pornography is not a victimless crime. It is destructive to the core unit of the country, the family. It is a fact that today internet pornography is increasingly being cited as a cause for increasing divorce rates." ( Edwin Feulner, The Naked Truth - Heritage Commentary 2002, The Heritage Foundation, Washington, D.C.)

AND

Dr. Victor B. Cline is a psychologist at the University of Utah with a private practice as a psychotherapist specializing in family marital counseling and sexual addiction. He has counseled numerous couples where one of the partners has a sexual addiction to pornography.

Dr. Cline says: "As a clinical psychologist, I have treated, over many years, approximately 300 sex addicts, sex offenders, or other individuals (96% male) with sexual illnesses. This includes many types of unwanted compulsive sexual acting out plus such things as child molestation, voyeurism, sadomasochism, fetishism, and rape. With only several exceptions, pornography has been a major or minor contributor or facilitator in the acquisition of their deviation or sexual addiction…"

Studies by social scientist Dr. W.L. Marshall found that almost half of rapists used pornography depicting consenting sex to arouse themselves preparatory to seeking out a victim to rape.

Other investigators have reported that rapists and child molesters use pornography both immediately prior to their crimes and during the actual assault.

Empirical research by Dr. Zillman and Dr. Bryant suggests that where experimental subjects are exposed to repeated presentations of hard-core non-violent pornography over a six-week period they develop an increased callousness toward women and trivialize rape as a criminal offense and to some it was no longer a crime and view non-monogamous relationships are normal and natural behavior."

Dear Love My Ex,

If you have more definitive citations to the studies you refer to, I would be interested in those citations.

There is an inference that pornography is bad, and is often, or at least sometimes a part of a criminal approach to a sex crime. Is there a good side to pornography? If pornography were able to be made to disappear. All magazine and video pictures and images are now fully dressed and behaving, what efect would that have on reducing rape, voyerism, etc?

To what extent is the motivation for rape, voyerism, etc, an independent motivating factor?

To what extent would a married man, with any of these deviant sexaul or criminal tendencies be satiated, by an overflowing marital bedroom? To what extent, in comparison is a skimpy, or insufficient marital bedroom, a factor into a lowered level of satiatin of deviant drives, as compared with an overflowing marital bedroom?

LOVE SAVED
I did try to start another thread. Another thread got locked down by the moderator. I'll try to get off your thread.


Quipper

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

star*fish and Quipper,

Why do I want you two to agree? You don't have to but I felt it would be good to define the areas of agreement and disagreement and build consensus where we can. I also like to work for reconciliation.

I accept that this cannot always be done and no-one should agree to something they don't really accept just to make peace. Or not if the issue is real principles rather than just money or some other mundane matter where a compromise is needed.

star*fish has some past personal issues that influence her view and which she's told us about. Quipper appears to have some current personal issues and if he's identified them I missed it.

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: lovesaved ]</small>

Quipper,

I found them online but did not save the sites.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there a good side to pornography?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO. My husband and I had a wonderful sex life and never once even remotely considered using pornography to "spice it up." I believe using pornography would've actually harmed it greatly. It would have become less pure, less intimate, less special... and more perverse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If pornography were able to be made to disappear. All magazine and video pictures and images are now fully dressed and behaving, what efect would that have on reducing rape, voyerism, etc?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am certain that it would have an affect. Obviously, there is always going to be depravity, crime, etc. in this world, regardless of the availability of pornography. However, pornography certainly does not aide in diminishing these things, it does not help men to break out of addictions or have pure thoughts, and I am certain that it contributes to many perverse and depraved thoughts of men who rape, molest, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To what extent would a married man, with any of these deviant sexaul or criminal tendencies be satiated, by an overflowing marital bedroom?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really sure what your asking here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To what extent, in comparison is a skimpy, or insufficient marital bedroom, a factor into a lowered level of satiatin of deviant drives, as compared with an overflowing marital bedroom?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not certain what you are asking here either?

Perhaps that man's insufficient, skimpy sexual life is a direct or indirect result of the pornography. If my husband had used pornography, I would have felt violated, disgusted, and I would have lost alot of respect for him.

When I was in college, I recall babysitting for a couple. I could tell immediately that they were unhappy and didn't have a good marriage. They seemed separate in many ways. Later I found a HUGE stack of playboy magazines in their bedroom. My heart broke for that wife! How can any woman compete with airbrushed images of young, naked women in a magazine? And what is his purpose for looking at those magazines? I mean, let's get serious. His purpose is to see naked women's bodies... either to simply enjoy them (lust over them) or to become aroused by them. Either way, how on earth is that loving to his wife??? How is that faithful to his wife?? How is that beneficial to his marriage?

It's not.

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star*fish has some past personal issues that influence her view and which she's told us about. Quipper appears to have some current personal issues and if he's identified them I missed it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's safe to see that we all have personal issues, both past and present, that influence our views. I don't think any person has views that aren't influenced by their personhood.

The woman who began M.A.D.D. (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers) had "issues" with the drunk person who killed her child.

John Walsh, who has a show to help find missing persons, had "issues" with his child being abducted and killed.

Charles Colson, who began a ministry to prisoners and their children (called Angel Tree) had "issues" because he was involved in the Watergate scandel.

People who fight breast cancer or AIDS or crime, etc... good bet it's because they have past or present "issues" with themselves or someone else in their life (who had cancer or AIDS or was a victim of crime).

Issues aren't such a bad thing and we all have them in one way or another.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lovemyex ----

I agree, ISSUES are not such a bad thing.

Sometimes I see posters attempting to side step an issue - or give a politically correct response to a poster, and I wonder if they realize that it's okay to disagree strongly with someone who is WRONG about something.

Conflict avoidance is an ISSUE - and it isn't a bad thing - unless it stops you from using the VOICE you have to overcome those things which ARE BAD.

I believe we have a responsibility to speak out against that which is WRONG, injust, or hurts others. It's an obligation - not just a privilege - and not just simply a 'right'.

Blessings,

Jan

But I never said that there was anything wrong with being influenced in our views by our past experiences! Read my post again and you will see that I did not say that at all.

My point was that whereas star*fish has explained the personal background to her views it seems to me that what Quipper is presenting as a theoretical debate as actually directed at current (not past) unresolved issues in his own marriage which he hasn't disclosed.

He has told us that he wishes his W was willing to use porn in their sex life.

Lovesaved,

I didn't see your post saying that there is anything wrong with being influenced in our views by our past experiences. Sorry if I came across that way. I think my post (re: issues) was more of just my own commentary taken off from your post where you mentioned issues because we often see issues as wrong. Believe me... I have many times thought my ex-husband had "issues" and then I have to remind myself that I do too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And that some of his "issues" were more of me being angry with him because he didn't treat me like I wanted him to! I do think though that I get a little "touchy" when people say someone has "issues" because I think it's used alot to dismiss or label a person and it is really quite prideful of the person saying it (because don't they also have their own issues?). But then again, I guess it really depends on how it's being said and who is saying it. I think the word "issues" is one of those words that automatically puts the person (who is said to have "issues") on the defense. Would you agree?

Actually, I don't think I ever really viewed "issues" as a positive thing until I wrote that post and began to think about it in that way. I never really saw it like that before.

As for starfish and quipper, I don't really know either of their backgrounds well enough to be able to comment on it (well, I know more of quipper's now). Yes, our own experiences/problems, etc. can definitely influence the way we see things and the advice we give people.

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

Jan,

I think it's not easy to disagree with people. We (people in general) don't want people to dislike us or be angry with us. Also, I think we often try to disagree and do it kindly but aren't sure how.

But esp. in today's day and age... boy, if you disagree openly, you risk being labeled "intolerant," "judgemental," etc. Of course, there are people who've literally lost their lives for speaking out against what is wrong (i.e. Jesus and disciples and other martyrs). If a person believes something wrong, it is really only harming that person and the people in that person's life... so when we do speak the truth (which we have to be careful to make sure that that really is what we are speaking), the purpose is to help this person or to literally "save" them from their wrong belief.

I think though alot of us fall into the mindset of we can see what we dang please however we want and to whomever we want (ESP. via the internet when it's anonymous and faceless!!), but there is a time and place for everything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe we have a responsibility to speak out against that which is WRONG, injust, or hurts others. It's an obligation - not just a privilege - and not just simply a 'right'.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree. I see this, of course, from a Christian viewpoint (which I think you do also).

I don't agree with all of Dr. Phil's advice, but I really like the way he speaks to people. He tells them what they need to hear, even when they don't want to hear it or don't act upon it. I don't find him to be rude though. He doesn't namecall or lable or judge or condemn in any way. Usually when he does say something "harsh," it is either with a tender voice and look or it is with laughter so it is lighthearted. Of course, those are the things the internet lacks (eye contact, voice, tough).

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>