<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bonniebb:
<strong>If it works for you that's great. But it doesn't make it the right way for everyone or everyone here. <p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I realize that. <p>You understand, I wasn't responding to your "whipping H into shape" thread, I responded to your quote: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Quite frankly, you sound like a victim and I cannot imagine this may of thinking. I also sincerely doubt that this point of view is held by many women. Do you have daughters?<hr></blockquote><p>I am not a victim. I *was* a victim in my past marriage in many ways. <p>Also, I have adult daughters, and I don't pretend to have the answers about marriage for them, clearly not, since I am divorced. <p>Yes, I am doing what I see as the "right thing" for me as a wife. My ex was a bit of a serial cheater (5 OW) and I, very selfishly, became an OW myself... I have seen this from all sides, although, as I said earlier, I don't normally post on this section, since I don't have OC issues.<p>I do care about the people who post here though, and I have become friends with a few of them...<p>I check in because there was a ... problem... with some ill-mannered OW a few months ago... and I want to jump in and support my friends (and all who post here) when I can.

I understand what you are saying and I am glad things are working better for you in this marriage. 5 OW? Sounds like losing him was a good move! Good luck.

Julia,<p>Very nicely put. There is one thing that I find some people do quite often and that is to take the parts of the Bible that they do like and leave the rest saying surely God couldnt mean that! We are now down to discussing what God says that we can take and what we cant. God says to "ask, seek, knock" in HIS will, way and time. Not "demand" in ours. Keep praying for your Hs ladies, and yes pray for yourselves. Of course pray for yourselves. Pray for peace in your heart and mind and strength, God's strength and comfort. He can turn your H around. Glory be to GOD, not ourselves. God turned my H around, I surely didnt whip him into shape. The Lord did. Keep doing what you are doing. The Lord is sooooooooooo very faithful.<p>Love in Christ,<p>bw<p>Oh, and for the record....I do pray for Bonnie and the lady who suggested such is absolutely correct. We should pray for her. Whoever she is, whatever her pain, it must be great.

Hi Nyneve:<p>I was reading some of your comments and had a question for you. Are you and your husband following the policy of joint agreement?<p>When he makes a decision, is it a decision with which you enthusiastically agree? If not, do the two of you continue to negotiate and discuss until enthusiastic agreement is achieved?<p>Biblically, the wife is to be surrendered to her husband. I do agree. Yet the husband, also, is to be submitted to Christ and to be loving his wife.<p>I don't think God was really advocating paternalism as much as he was the balance that Dr. Harley presents.<p>If the two of you, as Christians, are not in joint agreement... enthusiastically... then somewhere the balance was lost. One of you is less than equal in the decision making process.<p>Leadership is good... and good leadership should bring the two of you to mutual agreement, do you agree?<p>God is a God of Love. He asks us to surrender to Him... and His will for us is good... and in perfect balance.<p>Men are human beings. They are not always Christlike or altruistic. <p>If women aren't careful... they will buy into a doormat doctrine in the name of submission to their husbands. Dr. Harley calls that sacrificing past the point of self-interest... and Dr. Harley says that leads to imbalance, inequity, hurt feelings, unmet needs, and, often, divorce.<p>Husbands begin feeling invincible... women begin feeling powerless... and an imbalanced situation like that is a problem in a real relationship.<p>We're still on this side of glory, sisters. We can't trust others to have our best interests at heart... since all men are sinful.<p>All I am saying, really, is that Dr. Harley's common sense principles really are spiritually sound.<p>It's a lot easier to keep men honest in mutual accountability and joint agreement than it is to bring them back from the brink after they've become very self-centered, proud, vain, chauvenist creatures. That's not what God intented from my point of view.<p>God bless,<p>Laura

I want to second what broken wings just said my h is also a changed man. He used to be the biggest a hole around God can do wonders.<p>In God we trust united we stand!
with love flowerseed

GOOD NEWS! <p>Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be hot hindered.<p>Peter 3:7<p>
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everthing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.<p>Ephesians 5:21-25<p>
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.<p>Ephesians 5:33<p>We are all different, but the one thing we have in common is we are all sinners. Like Broken Wings said, we can either believe bits and pieces of God's Word that we like and and the parts that coincide with our ways OR we are going to trust God's Word (every word of it) as AUTHORITY for our lives.

One more thing, I agree with Nyneve when she said that the husband is the head and ultimately makes the final decision. I am not a victim, nor am I a doormat, but I do hold God's word as my authority (of course, i am not perfect, far from it). And if God created me to be a helpmate and he created me as the weaker vessel, then I will gladly, rejoicingly take that role. <p>I suggest reading Genesis 2:18-25,Proverbs 31, Romans 7, Ephesians 5, Malachi 2, and Peter 3 if you want to learn what God has to say regarding marriage/covenant.<p>I know a lot of people, including my own parents and brothers say that the Bible was written by man and that everyone is going to have a different interpretation of it. Before I was saved, I felt this way too. But I want to share this scripture with you as well...<p>Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (God himself).<p>II Peter 1:20-21<p>[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: mnca6713julia3 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by laura_lee:
I was reading some of your comments and had a question for you. Are you and your husband following the policy of joint agreement?<hr></blockquote><p>Oh Honey -- we are the KING AND QUEEEN of the POJA, believe me. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When he makes a decision, is it a decision with which you enthusiastically agree? <hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely. Unless I've told him otherwise... let me give an example... dinner. I told him when we first met that if he asks me a question, like 'What do you want for dinner' and I say 'I don't care' that I **sincerely** DO NOT care, and he can make a decision for us. I told him it carries over to other things too... if I say, 'please make the decision for us' I mean it, and there will be no reprocussions for his choice.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If not, do the two of you continue to negotiate and discuss until enthusiastic agreement is achieved?<hr></blockquote><p>We talk and talk and talk...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Biblically, the wife is to be surrendered to her husband. I do agree. Yet the husband, also, is to be submitted to Christ and to be loving his wife.<hr></blockquote><p>I agree. I told my H I am giving him a gift. He understands why I am doing this, and what my motives are.<p>Let me see if I can explain this: my first marriage was a MESS. My ex-H cheated and cheated... ultimately, I fell into sin myself and had an affair. He felt he then had 'carte blanche' to begin cheating again, and did, with women he met at his church. He had begun attending an independent Christian church and wouldn't let me attend with him. He *said* he was interested in saving our marriage, but indeed he wasn't. The marriage ended. At the same time, I was frankly feeling a bit soured on God and all things Christian (I'd also had some abuse issues from a prior church - and I mean that seriously, there's a police report). However, I began to attend an Episcopal church and loved it.<p>Enter my now-H, who was raised United, is a Christian, but not a "practicing" one (as in doesn't go regularly to church)... I moved to be with him, and we have 'talked about' going to church but haven't made it there yet. <p>Now, I have friends who subscribe to the Surrendered Wife... and of course, in my studies, I have always loved the Proverbs 31 woman, so this is what I have CHOSEN to give my H -- the gift of surrender. It's easy with him, because he is so kind, so loving, and does not take advantage of the gift. I tried it with my ex-H who clearly thought it was a license to keep me in emotional shackles. I therefore took the gift away from him -- perhaps I didn't give him a fair shake, I don't know, but in the end, he'd had his five OW, and I'd had enough. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If women aren't careful... they will buy into a doormat doctrine in the name of submission to their husbands. <hr></blockquote><p>Trust me, I am no doormat. Honest!!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>All I am saying, really, is that Dr. Harley's common sense principles really are spiritually sound.<hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree.<p>God Bless you too, and hope I answered all your questions...<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Nyneve ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mnca6713julia3:
<strong>One more thing, I agree with Nyneve when she said that the husband is the head and ultimately makes the final decision. I am not a victim, nor am I a doormat, but I do hold God's word as my authority (of course, i am not perfect, far from it). And if God created me to be a helpmate and he created me as the weaker vessel, then I will gladly, rejoicingly take that role. <p>I suggest reading Genesis 2:18-25,Proverbs 31, Romans 7, Ephesians 5, Malachi 2, and Peter 3 if you want to learn what God has to say regarding marriage/covenant.<p>I know a lot of people, including my own parents and brothers say that the Bible was written by man and that everyone is going to have a different interpretation of it. Before I was saved, I felt this way too. But I want to share this scripture with you as well...<p>Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (God himself).<p>II Peter 1:20-21<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>I am no authority on submission or surrender, believe me... just a woman who knows she did it the wrong way the first time and doesn't want to make any mistakes this time around.<p>I have beat myself up over my divorce and remarriage enough -- I am ready to do what it takes this time around.<p>I truly AM living this surrendered wife lifestyle, and truly, it is freeing, not binding. Yes, there are moments when I take control, and I'm ALWAYS sorry afterwards, because I feel that it goes against what I am trying to accomplish, and makes my H feel like I don't trust him as I should.<p>Remember, I am in my second marriage, my first being riddled with infidelity, and for all I know, an OC (I keep waiting for "little David" to pop up somewhere, as his first OW wrote him notes and signed those words next to a little drawn pic of her in-vitro baby at the time). <p>I did my share of controlling in that marriage, and was working very hard to change it... but by then it was frankly too late.<p>I don't want to make the same mistakes this time, and my H and I subscribe to MB whole-heartidly (sp) and he knows I strive to be a surrendered wife, but not exactly all that entails -- but clearly "gets" that he is the authority figure (with kindness, God's blessing, and enthuseastic agreement) in our household, which is the most important concept.<p>Also, I agree with you about being the "weaker vessel" although I look at it this way -- we are EQUALLY IMPORTANT in our marriage and in life. There is EQUALITY there, but not in the sense that many women see it. If they have to "dumb down" a test for a woman to pass (like a fireman/woman) then she doesn't belong there. I'm a big girl, I don't want some woman who can't pull 1** pounds through a window to be my fireperson... <p>Men and woman are different. We are suppose to be. And that's okay by me. I am neither a victim nor a doormat. I am my H's equally important partner. I have a job to do, as does he. We work together. <p>And, I pray for him daily...

By the way, much of my recent "story" is found on Women's Bible Study (WBS), if anyone would like to read there... and of course, my whole story is all over this site -- much of it, during my prior marriage, with the name "new_beginning."<p>Originally, WBS was using the book, "Power of a Praying Wife" which I have read, but did not go there at the time because I was divorcing. I am newly married, and perhaps will begin that study again...<p>As you can see, I've been around for a long time, and although I claim no perfection in Harley concepts, I do love them, and also this place. It saved my sanity, to be sure. Possibly my life. (By the way, Bystander has called me a "Drama Queen" so take those last words as you will [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Nyneve ]</p>

Hi Nyneve:<p>Thanks for your response. I feel better. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I was a little concerned that sisters were buying into self-sacrifice outside balance in an effort to obey God.<p>Here's a scripture: Love does not cause harm.<p>That's why Dr. Harley is right. If one of us in a relationship is suffering, then Christ is not at the center of the relationship bringing the necessary balance between us.<p>Therefore, neither one can suffer. That is not love at work. That is not Christ-centered.<p>In a healthy relationship, neither one suffers. We do not take so much that the other party suffers. We do not agree to let the other party take so much that we suffer. We do not fail to love the other party in word and in deed so that they suffer from our self-centered insensitivity.<p>Love does not cause harm.<p>So let's throw out the lovebusters, [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , learn to meet one anothers needs, and practice the policy of joint agreement.<p>Let's walk in love.<p>Sounds like, Nyneve, that you are making an active and sincere effort to do just that in your new relationship. May God richly bless you and open your eyes and anoint you to walk in high places of perfect love. God's love is perfect... we're not... but we can walk in His love with His help and guidance.<p>God bless,<p>Laura

Still makes me extremely nervous. Submit, helpmate, head of household.....no, I still feel man and wife are PARTNERS. In many households, both man AND wife work full time and both contribute financially. Many men could not have the lifestyle they have were it not for the wife's career. Yet even when this is the case, it seems the woman STILL bears the brunt of the rest of the work too, the cooking, cleaning, shopping, keeping things running smoothly, keeping husband happy etc. No way can I see a woman in those shoes subitting to H. I think when a woman submits it's because she wants to, because as Dr Phil would say, she gets a pay back for it in some way. Maybe she doesn't WANT a say. But for those of us who DO, I don't buy the Bible thing. Women today have educations and careers. In MANY cases THEY are the breadwinners in a household. I personally know MANY women who are in that position. My niece is currently in med school. I just can't hear my sister teaching her to be her H's helpmate, to submit to him, to lat him make the final decisions. I don't think God wanted that. What are you supposed to do when the H makes a poor decision or treats you poorly which sadly, happens OFTEN in this country? Do you just pray it gets better?

BB, <p>Woman was created FOR man, God created Eve to be a suitable partner FOR Adam, not vice versa, so whether your niece ends up being a doctor or a teacher, her role is still the same because she is a woman.<p>Also, Bonnie, if you don't hold the Bible as your authority then you realize why most of us don't hold your advice in high esteem. We are children, of the Most High, not the most low. Dr. Phil (although I enjoy listening to him and agree with a lot), is not the most High. God Almighty is and his Word is TRUTH.<p>I am praying for you because God has laid that on my heart all week.

This discussion has certainly deviated...<p>How abouts we book on over to the Women's Bible Study forum to discuss this further...<p>I really do need prayer, for God is laying upon my heart the desire to be closer to Him and give my current situation "over" to Him... you can read it about it on that forum if you choose...<p>Sorry for taking over your thread, millsc1, although hopefully you found something of worth in our discussion...<p>Sheryl

You are SCARY!
You may have been created for MAN but I was not.
What about women who never marry?
Why were they created?
I find this so ridiculous.
Let me guess, you are against divorce too? What would you do if your H hit you? Would you pray for him?

And honestly, PLEASE answer me because I asked it in the previous post and you ingored it. What DO you do when H makes bad decisions or harms you? What are women in that situation supposed to do according to you?

Hi Mills:<p>Sorry, also, if we took over your thread and deviated from the course you set. No disrespect intended. You definitely do need loving, nonjudgmental support as you go through a difficult time and season.<p>Also, ALL people... male and female... were created to show forth the praises of Him (God) who called us out of darkness into His glorious light.<p>God is Love. It is empowering, not demeaning, for me to show forth His praises. I love Him. He loves me.<p>As far as the relationship between man and wife... it's about love. If we leave behind the balance of tht relationship and move into subservience... we move away from liberty and into bondage. If it puffs up a man... it's out of balance. If it leads to abuse... it's out of balance. If it results in harm... it isn't love.<p>It's a pleasure to serve Christ. If a man is Christlike, there's nothing demeaning about that.<p>My objection would be a failure to recognize the sinfulness of man and to become subject to man in a manner that leads to bondage, imbalance, inequity, and abuse.<p>We must, ultimately, be submitted to teh Word of God. If a man is not HIMSELF submitted to teh Word of God... then my failure to submit to his unbiblical behavior is not lack of biblical submission.<p>So if man and wife are jointly submitted to teh Word, to God, and to one another... all is well.<p>To focus on submission outside the greater framework of scriptural balance leads to abuse.<p>A woman who keeps touting "submission, submission, submission" and is willing to buy herself a turban and walk ten paces behind her man and become his slave... is not in scriptural balance.<p>We have to beware extremes.<p>Bonnie has probably endured abuse and is not going to let anyone tell her to "submit" instead of take care of herself. Instead of beating her over the head with my Bible... I'd like to recognize that she may have a point... just like we do.<p>Point. Counterpoint. Check. Balance.<p>God bless,<p>Laura

I have endured emotional abuse, when my H had an affair. Physical abuse? NO WAY. One time would be the last time. I'm outta here because honestly, I am beginning to think you women are all on something and I'm afraid whatever you are suffering from might catch! Please, don't pray for me. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't WANT to submit, I want my H and I to be partners because I believe THAT is God's plan. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bonniebb:
<strong>And honestly, PLEASE answer me because I asked it in the previous post and you ingored it. What DO you do when H makes bad decisions or harms you? What are women in that situation supposed to do according to you?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know who you're speaking to with this question, but I'd like to answer.<p>I am divorced from a H who was, as I said above, a serial cheater and an emotional/verbal abuser, with some physical abuse. I hesitate to classify the things he did as physical abuse, but it has been called that by therapists, friends and family alike. (There was no hitting, which is why it's difficult to classify in my mind.)<p>I mentioned above that if a man does not treat this GIFT of surrender appropriately, it is taken away, for safety's sake. I would never stay with someone who hit me... that said, I stayed with my ex for a long, long time simply because I loved him in spite of his problems.<p>Bonnie, I have so much in my life right now that I really do NOT want to fight with you. I am not "super Christian" or even "pretty good Christian"... I'm just a struggling person who wants to FINALLY do what's right in the sight of God. I'm not joining a commune, becomming a slave, or locking myself in the church basement to pray. I am a 40-something year old woman, beginning life anew with my H, trying to live a good life.<p>I wish you peace.

Bonnie,<p>I said I would no longer post to you but I must say you have gone way over the line. You can insult me, my H, my thinking, and whatever else you can come up with, BUT you will NOT insult my God or HIS word. You want to talk admin honey, well you got it. Do NOT pop back up. I will continue to pray for you, whether you like it or not. And please, regardless of what you believe, do not show back up here unless you come in love. And peace. You are a very lost and disturbed individual but you are not allowed to disrespect others the way you do. You demand respect but apparently you can not give it. I feel so sorry for your H and and children that may be unfortunate enough to be left in your wrath.