All of you past oldies w/visitation...please define and explain problems so far.<p>I know when I was a newbie I read of problems w/visitation. It frightened me and gave me early warning. In spite of it we tried a visit. <p>It didn't work out for us. Did it or has it been smooth for ANYONE? I think NOT and would love to hear about it to print and save.<p>love
Debi

see next post<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: whatif? ]</p>

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: whatif? ]</small>

hit by mistake<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: whatif? ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>All of you past oldies w/visitation...please define and explain problems so far.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Deb...ya know I loves ya, Darlin...but the only problem I see with visitiation is having it granted.<p>Catnip =^^=

Touche` Catnip. I just wanted to see IF there were problems, what were they? Did they prevent bs from getting on w/life? Do bs THINK they MUST do visits to keep the marriage?<p>It seems like those who do visits have enormous ongoing problems. <p>Look at poor Gabbi's situation. Now a judge may tell them it's better to keep C away.<p>In our situation I've decided H could do as he wishes....it is not my C. H now thinks it is a lost cause because of how wild ow was acting toward me. How she stalked him when I wasn't around by bringing baby up to him and asking if he wanted to hold him, in a public place! I just couldn't do it ever to save my sanity. Since it's been established that visits will not happen I've been able to work solely on us again and our families are finally coming out of shell-shock.<p>Sad, but true. Ow have to use their heads in believing a baby will keep man w/them in ANY way. Keep the baby? Go ahead. It's THEIR choice, right? AFTER the birth a man DOES have a choice. No taking part in an upbringing of an unwanted to begin with C. Mainly because it destroys bs heart a little at a time.<p>Hey, thats just me.<p>Whatif?, I e-mailed you honey. I wasn't trying to say never for all. Just curious as to all the crap that usually follows visits when ow thinks she still has a foot (vagina) in the door.<p>love
Debi

We have had visitation since OC was 1 month old. There have been some obstacles. Exow was a real manipulator for awhile, but we stood our ground. Things go smoothly for about 3 months at a time and then exOW pulls some bullsht to try and get H to talk to her more. It works for about a 1 phone conversation and then it is over.
I, for one, could not have it any other way. It has brought my h and I closer. He greatly admires how I adore OC and have allowed OC into out lives. He is extremely loving towards me at that time and he allows me to make all the decisions about further visitation and contact. It works for us, but that is just how it is.

I am interested in all that you are saying...we have no contact, our choice together. I just don't know how you all do it. I would look at the baby and see the affair, and I am the type of person who loves babies and children. I wanted at least seven-nine of our own and I am even pushing for another...
The idea that you are saying that having visitation with the baby has made you and your H closer is hard for me to understand. I think I hold too much resentment for the OW and my H's actions and that seeing the child would only bring out the worst in me.
I figure I have a hard time acting loving and such toward my H now. (He never knows how I am going to be when he walks in the door.) I could just imagine the moods I would be in if we had visitation...my anger and hurt are still very raw.
I know I didn't add any advice to help anyone out here but wanted to say that I am looking forward to other experiences which could shed some light.
NGU

I can honestly say in our experience, my H decided in advance that there wasn't going to be any contact. (I have no problem with that) even after the emotions settled down for me and I examined every aspect of the situation, the choice of no contact is still there.<p>We decided no contact for several reasons, but the two that most stand out is
1. OW and her unreasonableness
2. My H's job and his consideration of me and his children of the home.<p>I admire those that do have contact and make it work, but from what I read and from other people I have talked to locally, it doesn't always work at times.<p>This is just what works for us. Who knows what the future may hold, but I don't foresee it with OC in it. We are praying that OW does indeed get married and that Fiance-man will adopt. If not, at least she has somebody to call her own and a father-figure for her child.<p>That's just our situation, I am interested in reading more about this myself.<p>Hugs,
Twiisty

Gem,
Right now we are on hold with visitation. It has been a nightmare. About 4 months back when we started joint visitation (H and me) at our home, things were going fairly smoothly. I figured that after 26 yr. of marriage I owed it to our marriage to try and see if I could emotionally handle being apart of contact with ocs.<p> We were on a weekly schedule, had 3 good visits, then things started going downhill. The 3yr old became fearful, and OW put in the dig, she didn't know why it was, could be me, or the house, or just didn't think her D wanted to share my H with me. <p>We have been working with a wonderful therapist who has given advice, but neither H or OW are willing to try. Her advice is let the child cry, and not to manipulate how the visits are going to take place. Sure I understand that is heartwrenching to have your child cry, I am not completely heartless. OC wants H to visit at her house. I don't think so! But in this process OW has to be supportive and tell the C that she understands she might not want to visit, but X and X want to spend time with you and miss having your visits. The last visit was uncomfortable, oc cried for 2 hours, then settled down and played and had a good time. But that was the last visit in over a month. So now I wait till H and OW decide how to proceed. <p> I am so depressed right now, I too wish I said I want no part in this. Therapist asked H what his priority was in life, his answer was his marriage, but I am not feeling that at this point, all we do is discuss how to incorporate his children into our marriage. That is not what I want to be spending my time discussing now. Being almost 50 I had visions of how life would be at this point of our marriage. This was not it.<p>I just want one last Xmas with our two grown children (d getting married soon) just the 4 of us, just like it was suppose to be before all the crap happened. I am so emotional all the time. But like some others, there is no Christmas spirt here, I don't have the ambition to shop, and believe me I am a proffesional shopper. <p>This morning our therapist called and had a cancellation, so hopefully this will help to get us off to a calm week. There, thanks for the vent, I needed that.<p>Tina

scenario....<p>anyone have any experiences, good or bad, with visitation with OM.... meaning.... it was the A between the OM and WW that had the OC?? SHouldn't ALL contact with OP be ended? Any need for the OM to remain in the picture? H (BS) is perfectly willing to raise the OC as his own.<p>thanks!

Tina I remember reading about the horror of your visits. I hope your H and you come to a conclusion (exclusion) soon.<p>After I look back on how truly willing I was to have baby around, then ow pranks, calls, letters, calls, to both me and H and e-mails to me and our son! She turned our lives upsidedown and spun it out of control! Lawyer letters of warning did no good. Her anger toward me calling was explained to me by Obrahatti and helped me understand why she did what she did. OB1 did not excuse it however.<p>I now have peace w/H. We're on a new level and he no longer wants visits as he saw how awful the situation became. It still meant ow in our/H's lives. To heal us that can never be.<p>Mind you that I didn't give an ultimatum. Simply said H can't have it all. Everything in life is a trade-off. He thought about it and agreed.<p>I will never turn c away if he seeks out H in the future. H has said if he does come and is disrespectful he will send him away.<p>I have a feeling with ow schooling him that day won't happen.<p>love
Debi

I have been reading this forum since last spring, and how I wish there had been somewhere I could have gone about 20 years ago. The struggles you are all going through are the same painful ones that I went through. Forgiveness is wonderful, but painful memories have a way of reappearing when they are least expected. The experience of an affair was so out of the realm of anything that I ever dreamed I would have to deal with in life, that I could not even form the words to talk to any friends or family about my feelings or about my being a BS with an OC. Luckily for me, one day as I was driving and sobbing in our car, I stopped at the Norbitine Abbey and was greeted by a retired priest. He said that I must have been led to him, because he had spent many years in helping married couples. He made it clear that I had no reponsibility toward the child, that ultimately the responsi- bility was with the birth mother, that my husband would have to financially support the child, which he did until her 19th birthday, and that we would have to work through the "blending" of the marriage and the child. He related the biblical story and how a man is not able to "serve" in two directions. He did say that some couples give visitation a noble try, but the dynamics that come and go through the process are usually more than the humans involved can deal with. He referred to phone calls, demands, overstepped boundaries, symbols - the child as a symbol of the worst pain that could be inflicted upon a marriage, etc. He did relate that the marriage nmust come first, and we had to decide what the marriage could handle. We did give visitation the noble try (by profession I have worked with children all of my life, so one might define me as child oriented - this fact alone caused me much soul searching and turmoil), as that was what my husband requested, but we were not prepared for the OW. I know I was warned by the priest, but I saw myself as "mature enough" - yeah right - to handle the situation, and I wanted to respect the innocense of the child - you know it all. As predicted the calls came - "The car does not start, and I have no food in the house, could J please stop over with some groceries", "My child should not have to visit with you in a neutral place. If she cannot be with you in your home, I won't let her go with you",etc. Then there were the boundary crossings -her seeking out our friends and family to tell them that the child was my husband's, the placing of the child in the school where our children attended, her following me in a store to show me how much the OC looked like my husband, etc. These are just a few of the examples. Also, we were not able to define the boundaries necessary for us to move on as husband and wife, father and mother to our 4 children. After many gut wrenching discussions, we, my husband and I, realized that visitation was not going to work in our situation. It was stopped.
We have gone on to build many life memories, our children are all wonderful adults, and we have seven grandchildren. Basically, we have worked at having a good marriage, but there are times I mourn what our marriage could have been.
The OC is now an adult. We agreed that my husband could contact her on her birthday and Christmas. He does call her from a neutral location - she no longer lives in our hometown. She has been requested to not personally call our home, but she can have a male friend call if there is an emergency. She has honored that request. As we have grown older, we are so vividly aware of how our home must remain our sanctuary, the one place where we feel secure and protected. We are also aware the each family has its limitations as to what it can handle, as we are all different people, with diverse histories, upbringings, experiences, feelings, etc.
I hope this has helped. You have helped me, and writing this has helped me. Life can and usually does go on after an affair. It will be different than it would have been, parts of it better, yes better, and parts of it will remain wounded. Those who share the OC experience need to respect each other and remember that each husband and wife must decide what their marriage can survive. For the most part, the contributors on this web-site are here for the right reasons - support and respect.

Math,<p>I just wanted to thank you for sharing that with me it was needed.<p>"After I look back on how truly willing I was to have baby around, then ow pranks, calls,letters, calls, to both me and H and e-mails to me and our son! She turned our lives upsidedown and spun it out of control! Lawyer letters of warning did no good. Her anger toward me calling was explained to me by Obrahatti and helped me understand why she did what she did. OB1 did not excuse it however."<p>Debi, I can relate to that 100% that's exactly how I'm feeling and what I'm going through. I'm going to look for OB1 post if you know which one it is please bump it to the top I would love to read it.<p>
Tee

Math,
I also would like to thank you for sharing your story.There are so many similarities with my situation to yours. <p>I am now in the "noble trying" of visitation, which is very difficult especially dealing with 2oc. But after 26 years , I feel I do owe it to our marriage to at least try, and at least feel I have given every effort to see if it is possible. Right now, I feel that it is going the way your attempt did. I know that ocs would definately benefit from our involvement, as OW has quite a disfuntional family herself, with no emotional support system.<p>We too are also dealing with boundries. OW works with H as his secretary. I have had a conversation with OW and tried to set up what I felt were fair expectations, but she has nothing to lose in crossing those boundries. Our therapist has told H he needs to keep reminding her about boundries, but he is one who avoids conflict. <p>Math, could you tell me how long you and H have been married? Were you both very young when the A happened? I am encouraged to hear that you and your H have stayed together. Thanks again for sharing. <p>Tina

math how good of you to visit. How profound your pain was 20 years ago. I cannot imagine not telling anyone. My big mouth told everyone we knew a few hours after H left and confessed.<p>I was ASHAMED, I felt not good enough sexually, I felt as if my heart were hammered into pieces. Ow was a friend.<p>My H has carefully guarded my feelings since he came home in May.<p>We are reuniting for the better.<p>Visits are totally lost forever as I also thought I could be mature. It was nothing but blinding pain. When ow shouted to me that he came to her cause he wasn't gettin it at home I was dumbstruck. He WAS "getting it" at home. Perhaps he wanted to feel something different after 26 years, so sorry he did now.<p>I am pleased you saw a real priest w/marital values. Our "fake priest" was showing more concern for ow/h/baby than us and what WE needed to do that we were all caught up in a nightmare that was slow to end. He had mentioned how as a "man" he'd never let his w stop him from being w/his c. I got up and walked out hurt and frustrated.<p>I then e-mailed priest using Our Dear Heavenly's analogy...<p>I felt as if I were attacked from behind from a wicked perpetrator who stabbed me in the back, and as I lie there bleeding and in pain, H and priest went after and sought perpertrator to see if SHE was ok...if there was anything SHE needed after that terrible ordeal. All the while I lay dying.... no one checked on me.<p>Priest wrote back saying how he had to counsel ALL members of the parish but I said NOT ow/h TOGETHER!!! he disagreed.<p>Well he's now on sick leave never to return to my former parish (it made local news). He is now awaiting trial which I MAY be part of. H too.<p>I knew in my heart he wasn't following the Catholic doctrine concerning marriage. So, you see I was betrayed yet again by all who I trusted.<p>Prozac helped me through the tough times as did prayer and changing parishes. I'm now off prozac and praying my as* off in thanks for the healing of my H and myself.<p>Alas it is something that indeed puts a pall on my marriage and life and self-esteem in general.<p>My H has been so loving, remorseful and giving. Yet I STILL ponder whether to stay or not.<p>I keep praying for the good Lord to show me the path to take. So far it's been w/H.<p>Most days I'm ok. Some days I wonder.....Hmmmmm..Could I be better off w/o all of this? Would H rather spend time raising new baby? I really pray for answers and will continue to keep the faith.<p>Thankyou math123, God bless.<p>love
Debi

We have been married 28 years. The affair happened about 23 years ago, lasted a few years, and I found out about it approximately 20 years ago. There is life after an affair, but for us the rebuilding of our life together did not really begin until the struggling around the OW and OC ended. I believe there has to be a definitive finality that all concerned can live with, whether that be no visitation, structured visitation or whatever - but since everything about the affair was highly charged and complicated, we found it impossible for everyone involved to agree on anything. When the spouse remains in the marriage, the marriage deals with a "scorned" person, another set of dynamics. How I remember the pain of grappling with what I could accept, the guilt over not wanting to be a part of the OC, yet thinking about her innocense, questioning what my husband really want, trying to figure out how all this would impact our children, etc. The OW, in our situation, wanted to continue being involved in my h's life in any way she could - it just all became too complicated, as the issues around the OW and OC were consuming us. It had to stop if we were to move ahead as an intact family. Slowly but surely we healed, as best we could. From time to time the pain resurfaces - when there is mention of an affair in a TV program, etc. However, we have a togetherness history to draw upon whenever the affair revisits us, and we are able to quickly move on.
When I share my story, I am in no way saying our choice was the best. I am only stating that we tried the visitation approach, but the turmoil was overwhelming - and we had four children to raise - another reality.
Now all are raised, including the OC. I hope we taught her that marriage is sacred, that it takes commitment and trust to make it thrive, that it cannot absorb all outside forces, etc. Yes, I pray that she never has to deal with betrayal from a spouse.

We have been married 28 years. The affair happened about 23 years ago, lasted a few years, and I found out about it approximately 20 years ago. There is life after an affair, but for us the rebuilding of our life together did not really begin until the struggling around the OW and OC ended. I believe there has to be a definitive finality that all concerned can live with, whether that be no visitation, structured visitation or whatever - but since everything about the affair was highly charged and complicated, we found it impossible for everyone involved to agree on anything. When the spouse remains in the marriage, the marriage deals with a "scorned" person, another set of dynamics. How I remember the pain of grappling with what I could accept, the guilt over not wanting to be a part of the OC, yet thinking about her innocense, questioning what my husband really want, trying to figure out how all this would impact our children, etc. The OW, in our situation, wanted to continue being involved in my h's life in any way she could - it just all became too complicated, as the issues around the OW and OC were consuming us. It had to stop if we were to move ahead as an intact family. Slowly but surely we healed, as best we could. From time to time the pain resurfaces - when there is mention of an affair in a TV program, etc. However, we have a togetherness history to draw upon whenever the affair revisits us, and we are able to quickly move on.
When I share my story, I am in no way saying our choice was the best. I am only stating that we tried the visitation approach, but the turmoil was overwhelming - and we had four children to raise - another reality.
Now all are raised, including the OC. I hope we taught her that marriage is sacred, that it takes commitment and trust to make it thrive, that it cannot absorb all outside forces, etc. Yes, I pray that she never has to deal with betrayal from a spouse.

We have been married 28 years. The affair happened about 23 years ago, lasted a few years, and I found out about it approximately 20 years ago. There is life after an affair, but for us the rebuilding of our life together did not really begin until the struggling around the OW and OC ended. I believe there has to be a definitive finality that all concerned can live with, whether that be no visitation, structured visitation or whatever - but since everything about the affair was highly charged and complicated, we found it impossible for everyone involved to agree on anything. When the spouse remains in the marriage, the marriage deals with a "scorned" person, another set of dynamics. How I remember the pain of grappling with what I could accept, the guilt over not wanting to be a part of the OC, yet thinking about her innocense, questioning what my husband really want, trying to figure out how all this would impact our children, etc. The OW, in our situation, wanted to continue being involved in my h's life in any way she could - it just all became too complicated, as the issues around the OW and OC were consuming us. It had to stop if we were to move ahead as an intact family. Slowly but surely we healed, as best we could. From time to time the pain resurfaces - when there is mention of an affair in a TV program, etc. However, we have a togetherness history to draw upon whenever the affair revisits us, and we are able to quickly move on.
When I share my story, I am in no way saying our choice was the best. I am only stating that we tried the visitation approach, but the turmoil was overwhelming - and we had four children to raise - another reality.
Now all are raised, including the OC. I hope we taught her that marriage is sacred, that it takes commitment and trust to make it thrive, that it cannot absorb all outside forces, etc. Yes, I pray that she never has to deal with betrayal from a spouse.

Sorry about the repeated message, but I am very new at working with computers.
Debi - I feel like I know you, as I have been reading your posts for a long time - and I can relate to your "evolution" of your coming to grips with all that has happened to you. How I remember questioning whether staying in the marriage was worth the effort, as the pain was so great and one never knows what the next day will present. When I read what happened to you with the now notorious priest, I was so thankful I "ran" into the one I did when I was devastated.
As you can see, the issue continues to rear its ugly head, and from time to time, I wonder if another choice could have been made in our situation - otherwise why would I have searched out this web-site. However, the reality in our situation is that we did go on, we do love each other, our children are awesome adults, the OC is a working young adult, and our life together has been quite full. I know, knowing all involved, this would not have happened with contact. I never stopped praying for all involved.