Dear Want It Back,<p>I am a wife who supports visitation, so please don't dismiss my comments as those of spurned wife.<p>I hope that you are not confusing an unwillingness to have visitation with hatred. The decision not to have contact is often a difficult and painful one, but one that is made in the honest belief that the marriage cannot survive in the face of visitation.<p>Some of us come from non-traditional families and maybe that makes it easier for us to open our lives and hearts to the OC. Others firmly believe in the traditional nuclear family. You are not necessarily evil nor filled with hatred if you do not move over and make a place at your family table for OC.<p>It is very easy to come here and take hurt at what others think, say or feel. But if the comments are not directed directly at you or your child, I think that you make a mistake to take them so personally.<p>Here's an example, slightly off topic. My husband and I are adopting. We have had our grief over our inability (or rather mine) to have biological children. We have expanded our concept of family and do not believe that genetics define what is and isn't a family. That comes from love and shared experiences. However there are others here who grieve or fear their own potential infertility. Many who are facing infertility don't think of adoption as a viable alternative to birthing children. I don't take that as an insult to me. We are just in different positions and at different stages of our lives. Now, if someone wrote to me and said "MJ, I think you are stupid for adopting, for adopting older children. You will never love them the way I love the children I gave birth to. You won't be a real parent, not the way I am truly a parent." Now then I would be pissed, but if what they said is that they wonder those things about themselves--could they love an adopted child? Will they feel the same for an adopted child as one they birthed? Those are all valid questions and ones that everyone needs to answer for himself or herself.<p>So, being pissed off at couple who have decided no contact is as inappriate as me being pissed off at all of you who have wanted three children and given birth to all three instead of birthing two and adopting one. After all, orphans are innocent children, just like OCs are. People do what they can, what they are lead to do. Please don't assume that everyone must follow the same path you do.<p>I think you are a bit over the top on this topic unless you can give me a few examples that I have missed. I don't ever recall seeing "I hate OC" or "If OC were in a burning building I would just let it die even if I could save it without endangering my own child." <p>No one here debates that OC is innocent in all of this, but many do debate whether OC has a place in their family's life and can assume that place without destroying the marriage and harming the children born/adopted of the marriage.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> "IT" is an object to me. FYI, El, FYI. As is "it's" mother.
Also as time has passed an "it" to my husband.<p>Also a huge humiliation. Huge dishonor. Something to recover from. Nothing to celebrate.<hr></blockquote> <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This is YOUR child, NOT ours. Why would we care about any OW's child anymore than any kid on the block above our own children or above our marriage? It doesn't make sense. Who cares? Are we supposed to care? Or feel guilt? It ain't gonna happen <hr></blockquote><p>By the way, I didn't bring up the burning building mataphor, someone else did.

Also Mary Janes, If you read all my posts you'll see that I do not put everyone with "no contact" in the same category. Some people have no contact but still have a heart and a concience. Others have no contact but do it with no class at all.

Ummmmhhhh, yes, the quotes you listed are angry and somewhat disturbing, but they do not talk about hate. I believe that they were said in anger in response to someone new here basically trying to guilt trip everyone into having contact. They are unkind and angry, but I still don't think they reach the level of hate. Hate and apathy are two different things.<p>Yes, you're right. Someone else did come up with the burning building metaphor, but you did add:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would never expect any woman to save the OC over her own in a burning building but what makes me sick is that these women wouldn't even attempt to save the OC if it were the ONLY child in that building. They would stand there and say good riddance. <hr></blockquote><p>I am so very glad that you and your husband and your ex-lover have been able to work this out. I am glad that both of them are decent men and in my personal opinion, you have achieved what is probably best for your child, but you seemed to come here saying everyone had to follow your prescription. It appears that you have softened your position. If you have, I apologize for jumping on an outdated thread. A lot can change in just a couple of days.<p>Even though we support and have visitation (at an additional cost to us of about $4,000 a year on top of the $15,000 a year we already spend on child support), it makes me furious for someone to tell me that this is something I have to do, that all betrayed spouses have to do. There seem to be quite a few new members to the board who are taking this stand. I think that either stand, made carefully and with prayer can be a proper decision. We are not robots, but rather hurting human beings in enormously difficult circumstances. What works for one doesn't work for others--even if exOW is not a whacko.<p>All of this emphasis on biology really confounds me. If this whole argument of a child's right to know her father is true, then how could any couple ever surrender their child to adoption? It would break the "laws" of genetic knowledge. You fathered me/you birthed me therefore I have a right to you. IMO a child has a right to a happy and healthy upbringing--that doesn't necessarily mean two birth parents. I grew up w/o birth father. BTDT raised her son w/o the birthfather in the picture. My sister has raised a wonderful teenage daughter even though my sister's H abandonded both of them 3 months after my niece was born.<p>Plenty of adopted children have grown up OK. Heck, some even get adopted by single women. Single parenthood isn't ideal, but is isn't necessarily a death sentence.<p>MJ

Ok, ok, I'm sorry for bringing up that metaphore of the burning building, it was again, taken the wrong way! Please forget I even said anything about it! I didn't mean to have it make another thread take the attacking turn, and it seems that everyone does want to "get along" so let's just forget about that little story, Ok? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But seriously, like everyone has said, we all have our POVs, and if we want our's to be respected, we need to respect the other's as well.<p>JMVHO, and I'll shut up now [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love,<p>Tigger

MJ,
I will vouch for the adopted children growing up OK. I was adopted as an infant, and always knew it. I also have had at my disposal all information of my birth-parents, and have had it available for over 30 years, I have never once asked to view the information. <p>Maybe I am in the minority in not being curious, but I feel that my birth parents made the unselfish decision to give me up for adoption, I would never want to disrupt their lives.<p>Tina

MaryJanes, Just one more thing about burning buildings and I promise I won't mention anything burning again. I need to explain why I said what I said . In the quote in my post, that woman described the OC as an object. An object that she clearly feels nothing for. I figured no one would go into a burning building to save an object they care nothing for. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Just needed to explain myself. I don't say these things for no reason at all. It was just how I was intepreting it.

Crud!!!!!!!! I missed the great burning building debate. <p>Peace!<p>another day down and I'm still sane..sorta [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

want it back, you quoted me correctly and again, I posted this answer from Dr. Harley to ME for others to ponder if they cannot deal with visitation, a word that was only for divorced friends of mine before this devastation happened to my husband and me.<p>Since we had decided together on stopping all contact w/ow/oc long before Dr. Harley answered me, I thought I'd pass it along to others lurking on this site.<p>Since last spring, when we discontinued dragging ourselves through unnecessary spewing of unwanted opinions on what kind of people we were from ow, our lives went back on track. No more worries of H or I having to deal with her or her oc.<p>Out of sight....out of mind...so to speak.<p>We now pay her the reward of producing her unwanted child in the form of cs and health insurance (which I provide through my job).<p>Hope she gets back w/her H and leaves us alone. For the sake of her other kids w/her h who were also devastated and lost their dad to another state.<p>So much for all the feelings going to oc. Oc will grow up and do it's own thing some day. I hope it didn't learn all the wrong things from mama.<p>As for our family, we anxiously await the wanted grandchild we are soon to enjoy.<p>CELEBRATE!!<p>love
Debi

I've been reading this thread with great interest and have learned a lot of new quotes from the Bible. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It seems to me, that one point has not been mentioned. The children from the marriage if contact, as it apparently often does, leads to renewing the affair and the end of the marriage, are hurt. If large amounts of child support are extracted then the children of the marriage are hurt.<p>I don't want to reignite the CS issue, but when talking about innocent children they are everywhere in this situation, and frankly none of them escape being touched by a situation that should never have happened.<p>It seems to me if the marriage fails children are hurt, so a primary motivation is to try and rebuild the marriage which is very difficult after an A, and the permenant reminder of the OC. Yet, it is done.<p>As for the IT, comment. Being a guy and a father of three children, I would like to point out to the ladies here an interesting bias I see. If you are not intimately involved in the pregnancy, as in pregnant, it is very common to only bond with the child once it is in your life. Men face this situation all of the time. We really don't bond until after the birth of the child.<p>What has been commented on as hate, by calling the child an IT, is more reflective of being not gender specific PLUS not bonding with the child. A betrayed W has no more reason to bond with a child than most men, and that is apart from the fact that the child represents a hugh betrayal. A betrayed H also faces a hugh issue and also faces men's deepest fear, is the child mine. A fear that exists even if there is no apparent affairs.<p>MY POINT???? Don't be so touchy about the phrasing of this discussion. It has been my observation that the people that post on this sight are generally people of good will and kind hearts, albeit very hurt hearts.<p>Assume the best folks, and I think this discussion will continue to be very enlightening.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just Learning,
I want to thank you for comments. I never thought about it that way. I see your point about men bonding after the child is born. My H said how can I care about someone that I do not know. I believe if my H was allowed at the hospital or even allowed to see the child things would be different.<p>Dawn

I understand the "it" thing too. But "it" is a "child" not an "object" weather "it" has been born yet or not. And as far as all the other suffering children in the world, of course everyone would like to see that no child had to suffer but having the opportunity to help that child in some way and turning your back is something I personally could not do. Just want to say that it is possible for a marriage to be rebuilt and for all the children involved to be happy and secure. I know it is because it's happening in my life right now.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DocsGirl:
<strong>Crud!!!!!!!! I missed the great burning building debate. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>FOTFLMAO! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks DG for a note of levity in a thread I was getting way too caught up in.<p>Hey! Peace right back at ya! (insert New York City accent here)<p>MJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong><p>As for the IT, comment. Being a guy and a father of three children, I would like to point out to the ladies here an interesting bias I see. If you are not intimately involved in the pregnancy, as in pregnant, it is very common to only bond with the child once it is in your life. Men face this situation all of the time. We really don't bond until after the birth of the child.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks, JL. I too have noticed the "It" thing. I have thought that on this board, while some of it may be motivated out of anger, that some of it is motivated out of privacy. I could easily post our OC's name and home town, but I don't. I respect that level of privacy for Mr. J and for me, and I respect it for OC, even exOW.<p>I have also noticed that for men, bonding--true deep bonding--only happens after some significant time spent with the child. Mr. J had no feelings for OC for quite a while. In fact, I think I bonded with her before he did, but hey, I'm female and infertile. I could bond with the hint of spit-up left in an empty elevator because my desire for children is so strong.<p>Good thing we are about to adopt, huh? I used to stand in the baby food aisle just staring at all the different color jars I would buy when my turn finally came. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I used to half-jokingly tell Mr. J that I was going to get arrested some day for following some lady with a cute baby in a stroller. Funny we are adopting school-aged kids. All in God's exquisite timing and to his exquisite will. As hard as it has been to have this adoption delayed by 18 months, maybe it was truly a gift from God; we have been given time to heal our marriage.<p>MJ

Just wanted to add my two cents. As most of you know, I am the proverbial &#8220;other woman&#8221; with the &#8220;other child&#8221;, and I have to say that I support no contact/visitation if the MM does not have the full support of his W. Why? Because he has chosen to stay and work on his marriage which means that the W will be a part of the visitation in one form or another. While I understand and agree with the arguments about putting the marriage first because it is THEIR FIRST priority, I, as the OW, have to look at it from the perspective of &#8220;what is best for my son?&#8221;. Is it good for him to be forced on someone who doesn&#8217;t really want to be in his life? What will that do for his self-esteem? Responsibility be damned! If the man and his W don&#8217;t want to be involved, by their own free will, then I really don&#8217;t want them around my son. What good does it do my son to try and force someone to love him? Trying to force visitation/contact is NOT for the benefit of the child. It&#8217;s a last ditch effort to hang on to something that no longer exists. If you want to think in terms of the innocent OC, then think about this: what are you doing to that child by pushing him into the arms of someone who doesn&#8217;t want him? I wouldn&#8217;t want that for my son&#8230;..ever!<p>OB1

I do agree with you 100% but it can be done with class, without calling the OC names or demeaning that child and it's exhistance in some way or another. Because that child may not mean anything to them does not mean that someone else doesn't love that child dearly. I'm sure they would take offense to someone speaking about thier own children in that way even if it were in general terms. I gave my daughters father the option of having anything to do with her or not. I would never have forced her on him. If he had decided not to be involved with her I would at least hope to God that he had nothing bad to say about her.

Want it back,<p>I feel compelled to address your recent post. Please understand, I don't disagree with how you have arranged your life given the current circumstances, but my compulsion to answer you comes from a deep fear that you don't see the very fine line you are walking and have walked. <p>Don't fear my response has something to do with the thought of this thread. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] But, I am using your situation as an illustration of something that has not been considered in this discussion.<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I understand the "it" thing too. But "it" is a "child" not an "object" weather "it" has been born yet or not. And as far as all the other suffering children in the world, of course everyone would like to see that no child had to suffer but having the opportunity to help that child in some way and turning your back is something I personally could not do. Just want to say that it is possible for a marriage to be rebuilt and for all the children involved to be
happy and secure. I know it is because it's happening in my life right now. <hr></blockquote><p>You H isn't posting here so forgive me for what will seem like putting thoughts in his head.<p>I made bold the part of your quote I want to address. As I understand from your posts, your baby by the OM is less than a year old. I also understand that OM sees the baby often and is in fact HIS only child. I also understand that you have two older children. Although, you have never admitted it, I think you also have an H that has been hurt at a level that few can understand and I am certain from what you have said you don't understand at all.<p>You are most fortunate to have a man that loves his family so deeply that he will endure what you have done, BUT DON'T OVER ESTIMATE HIS FORGIVENESS OR HIS BREAKING POINT.<p>With that preamble, allow me to point out some issues that WILL arise. What is going to happen when your baby is 5-6 or more years old and wants a bicycle?? You don't really what him/her to have it but OM is a softy and buys one anyway. What if your H doesn't want the child to have one?<p>Who is going to make that decision?? You, your H, or OM. When the OM decides to bestow upon your child many Christmas Gifts (assuming you are Christian, if not pick the holiday of choice) what are your other children going to think? Who makes that decision?<p>When this child becomes a teenager and gets out of line who is doing to do the disciplining, you, your H, or OM?<p>Now, I raise these questions for two very specific reasons. One, your OM has a say in this mess, because you have brought him into the child rearing situation. You can argue that by rights you and OM should make the decision, but if you go this route you cut your H out. Given that you have had an affair, this is not going to be good for you, your H, or your children because if H feels he has lost control in his OWN house, the marriage is likely over.<p>If you cut OM out of the decision loop, you have legal problems. If you treat the child differently and more generously than your other children, they have big problems with your adultery and you may lose the connection you have with them.<p>My second point is that your H sounds like a very strong man, but when the raising of this child becomes an issue and it will because raising ones own child often leads to disagreements between H and W, there can be hugh problems that will lead to the end of your marriage.<p>Now, Want it back, I don't know the degree to which you are committed to your marriage. I hope it is now strong, but the data suggests that it hasn't been strong for that long or this child would not exist. What I want to point out, that while you seem to think you have made the right choice now you are in fact rubbing your H's face in the fact that this child is not his everytime OM comes and interacts with it and/or you take the child to OM without your H.<p>But, my main point is that life with this situation may not be as ideal as you think when really hard decisions about child rearing come. Babies are easy, teenagers are not, and having three people to play against one another is not a good thing. My guess is that it may well destroy your marriage, if it is not handled with extreme care and understanding on your part.<p>It falls to you because through your folly you have brought two men together into a very very volatile mix of emotions, trust, and responsibility.<p>So I think the connect to this thread is clear. People are focused in this discussion on "innocent" babies or young children, but to me the issue really comes to a head when children need the most parenting, the teenage years. Then the situation gets really rough and no one is discussing this part of the issue of dealing with an OC.<p>Thanks for reading through this, if you got this far.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi JL, First I have to say that I am going to be picky here. In the highlighed area of my quote notice that I said "happening" not "has happened". I realise that this is far from over. As far as things like the bicycle or Christmas presents, I suppose if the OM wanted her to have those things and we didn't then they would stay at his house. In my house, the children all get treated equally. My H and I so far have not done anything different with her in any regards as we have with our sons. In my eyes and his he is just as much her father as he is to the boys. As for discipline or any other major decisions, it's true that the OM and I are the legally responsible ones but "I" am not just me, "I" am my husband and myself. So although the OM will deal with me he is actually dealing with the both of us. So yes, all three of us will be involved in decision making. My husband knows that he is not an innocent bystander here and that he does have a voice. As far as the pain I have caused my H, I am all too aware of that and do my best everyday to make up for it. You might understand the situation regarding the OM and visitation better if you read my response to a post by Joe in the thread entitled "Don't blame the OC". I am NEVER alone with the OM and the only contact we have is in regards to our daughter. My husband has a very good relationship with her and she is always much happier to see him than she is when she sees the OM. I don't think he is worried about his relationship with her. My H does voice concerns when he has them and like everything we take one day at a time. We can't worry about what "might" happen in 10 years, how would that help us now. We both are working towards the marriage we had before my A and will deal with things as they come up together.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by want it back:
<strong>I do agree with you 100% but it can be done with class, without calling the OC names or demeaning that child and it's exhistance in some way or another. Because that child may not mean anything to them does not mean that someone else doesn't love that child dearly. I'm sure they would take offense to someone speaking about thier own children in that way even if it were in general terms. I gave my daughters father the option of having anything to do with her or not. I would never have forced her on him. If he had decided not to be involved with her I would at least hope to God that he had nothing bad to say about her.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Want it back,<p>In an ideal situation, WS would not have had an A, OC would not have been born, and nobody would be hurting. Unfortunately, as humans we have to accept ours AND each others fallibility. Regardless of which end we're on, we're all dealing with emotions at their rawest. I believe the BS suffers a lot more than the WS, OW, or OC because they are painfully aware of the circumstances and know that they have no real control or say-so over what has taken place (A and OC). They are left to cope with a situation that they had no choice in, yet it has effected them for the rest of their life. Naturally, something that causes them so much pain is also going to summon immeasurable rage and bitterness. Our very own animal instinct leads us to lash out at anything that is hurting us. The OC is the personification of the pain of the betrayal. Commonly, when one reacts to a child it is in a &#8220;how cute&#8221; detached observation. There is no emotional tie, unless it is your own child. With the OC, there is an immediate connection with the pain of the A. Like any trained lab animal, if you make the connection between pain and a certain object or sequence of events, you&#8217;re going to avoid whatever it is that causes you that pain. It&#8217;s not about punishing or hating anyone. It&#8217;s about doing what you have to for your own protection. Just like you could not abort your child for the sake of your marriage, you cannot expect the BS to sacrifice of themselves for the sake of a child that is not theirs and is a breathing representation of their immense pain. I don&#8217;t mean any of this harshly, not by any means. For me, it&#8217;s easier to cope if I face the reality of the situation I&#8217;m in. I HAVE to acknowledge that I and my son are not the only ones that matter here. It&#8217;s a road that I&#8217;ve been traveling for almost 2 years now. For me, it&#8217;s like maneuvering a minefield.<p>OB1

ohbratti1, Maybe I'm just having a hard time connecting here because the OM in my situation was not married and did not have children. I have seen the pain I caused my H first hand but I guess I haven't seen the pain of the W or her children. I will try(impossible as it may be) to put myself in thier place before I open my mouth again. Thanks for your insight!!