Trying is a great place to start [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The best to you and your family.<p>OB1

Obratti, I agree with our post as a BS. My h had an affair which produced a child. I have known of this awful mess for not much time, but the child is older. I cannot deal with this child because the child is the personification of the betrayal and the most awful hurt in my life. Even my H admits the birth of the OC was not cause for a celebration and he certainly does not celebrate the birth of an illegitimate child. He pays CS, huge amounts, and wishes I could accept the child into our life. I cannot, for the reasons you stated above. He must do without contact with child, or choose contact and do without contact of me and our children. His decision. And I agree-how is it good for child to come into a home where child is not accepted, not wanted, not celebrated into the family? I think that is awful for this innocent child too. I think no contact is the nicest thing one can do for child at times.
I also agree with other posts-what will this be like for child when he/she grows up-when he/she realizes daddy has other kids he lives with, adores, raises and OC is not equal in that respect?That is good for child. I think not.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>...I think no contact is the nicest thing one can do for child at times...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That, and pray that OW finds a nice, loving man who will step up to the plate and father the OC.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>I also agree with other posts-what will this be like for child when he/she grows up-when he/she realizes daddy has other kids he lives with, adores, raises and OC is not equal in that respect?That is good for child. I think not.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hopefully, OW will not be drumming these facts into the thinking of her OC!!<p>As for mine, he did need to be reminded of the cold, hard facts of life when he rebelled against me and my H--his stepdad. I asked him to think long and hard about who REALLY loves and wants him, who was REALLY his "daddy" and to ask himself WHY he had never been over to his bio father's home or met bio father's other kids??????? The answer is because WE are the ones who loved and wanted him therefore we deserved his loyalty, not bio father.<p>OC was about 14 and telling stepdad that "you're not my father so you can't tell me what to do." I think all kids who have stepparents eventually say that, regardless of the circumstances. But still... that's how it all went down with me. OC is 19 now and he knows who his "father" really is--the father is the one who is there every day and involved in his life!

Obratti<p>You never cease to amaze me. Your insight and empathetic explanation of your last post describing how and why the Betrayed Spouse feels as she does, is by far the most concise and best description I have ever read. It is also a perfect end to this passionate thread.<p>Obratti, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Only a jughead would be unable to understand the feelings of the Betrayed towards OC after reading, and thoughtfully contemplating, your stellar post.<p>I read your post and sat here stunned that you would know, could know and be so objective and explain so perfectly how it really is and why. You are extremely fair, thoughtful and compassionate and I absolutely love you.<p>Catnip =^^=

ohbratti<p>Your post explained some feeling so well and completly. Thank you for putting some words to why I just don't want to ever see OC. (though I don't deny H to do so...and he does visit)<p>Thank you!!!<p>Take care,
Why

To the top.

Hi to all! <p>I havnt been around since October. Thats when I went to plan B. I didnt come home till January.<p>This is long, but here is my expierence with H seeing OC for first time and seeing OW for first time in 9 months.<p>After OC was born in August, it stirred up alot of emotional issues with H. His OW lives in another state with her H, and my H thinks they're a very unstable family. He didnt like to think @ this guy raising his daughter. (He should have thought about that a long time ago!!!)<p>The DNA was done in Sept and confirmed he was the dad. More emotional stuff. <p>I agree with Dr. Harley in that no contact with the OW is important for marital recovery. My H knows I feel very stongly about this. I didnt want to stand between him and OC but I told him I didnt think he needed contact with OW to have relationship with OC.<p>So at my request, he told her she would have to deal with me, or his sister...or I would deal with her husband, or a girlfriend of hers, but no contact between the 2 of them. Evidentally she didnt like it but said ok.<p>Then I found out in Oct that he had a phone card and was calling her on updates @ baby. Thats when I left. I didnt come home till I was confident he wasnt communicating with her, and would respect my wishes about NO CONTACT.<p>(We didnt go the court route. OW didnt want it, and We didnt either, if it wasnt necessary. I am scared as to how that will work out for visitation in the future. But with DNA done, we can always go to court if my H wants visitation that badly. She set the child support and we pay it faithfully. It is very reasonable. And were happy with that part of the situation.)<p>Heres how things have worked out since Ive been back home. At the end of January we flew up to see OC, with very little arrangements made with OW, only a text message on her phone of when we would be there and that we would text her when we were in town.<p>When we got there, we texted her to call our hotel, which she did. I spoke with her. I asked if she would bring OC to the hotel, that I would meet her and bring baby to my H for about 30 mins. She could wait in lobby. She said NO! SHe said she never let the baby out of her sight, and if that is what we expected, we wasted our trip. <p>Now H is looking at me. Am I going to stick to my guns about him not seeing OW, meaning we go back home without seeing OC? Or do I give in so he can see the baby? He says he'll do what ever I want. Now I feel like the bad guy for not wanting them to see each other. Will this be a big LOVE BUSTER if I make him go back home? SO I gave in.<p>Our first meeting with them was in a mall. I didnt want OW and H goo-gooing over what a beautiful baby they made together, so I asked him to take the baby as soon as we got there, and allow me to talk with OW for awhile. That happened. He went off and sat with baby on a bench while OW and I sat off in the distance talking. <p>We kind of got on an even ground I would say. We discussed the child support, how her husband was handling everything, and the fact that my H & I needed time to bond with the baby, that I would always treat her child well,and never usurp her position as her mother. I asked if the time would come when we could have OC alone? She said yes, when she was older.<p>For 4 days OW was our best friend! She didnt let the baby out of her sight & in fact stayed right with us the whole time. I thought she might stay a respectable distance away from us giving us some privacy, but no. As H held and walked with OC, she pushed the stroller right next to him. Funny, I actually DIDNT feel threatened by her. I didnt detect any flirting between them, or anything special at all for that matter. In fact I felt at times they were trying very hard not to even look at each other. But just the same it was very difficult to observe them interacting at all, and I was not comfortable showing OC much affection, as I would have liked to with her looking on. <p>OW was very nice to me, as I was to her! And if you were looking on you would have thought we were all old friends. I was hoping she could see that I would be reasonable to deal with, and that would make it easier for her and H to have no contact in the future. Time will tell if this is the case.<p>One night while there, It was getting to me, and I was getting cold to H because he was SO HAPPY about how things had turned out, and I felt he didnt understand how hard it was for me, and what I gift I had given him in "allowing" the contact so he could see OC. We started to argue and I fell on the floor and wept with my face in the carpet. He just sat on the bed, irritated with me. I asked him how he could just sit there when he could see I was in so much emotional pain, and not even try to comfort me. His response was "I dont know if I can give you what you want."<p>I told him I would not go through this again. He must tell OW there will be no more contact between them. Only with me. I gave him 30 mins alone with her before we left and he told her that. He said her response was that she didnt say no!<p>My H was very messed up emotionally when we returned. Missing and crying for OC, and the fact he cant be in her everyday life. He initially told me he felt like he had just seen an old friend when he saw OW, nothing romantic, but later admitted more would develope if given the chance. I said you can be with them if you want to. All you have to do is leave me and go to OW. I know she'd leave her husb for him. He asked "You'd be ok with that?" I said, "I dont want you here if you dont want to be with me." Thats what Ive told him from the beginning. He just keeps staying. I guess that means something!<p>How have things been between us since? Weird! My heart broke a little more when I didnt get the support from him I needed during the visit to OC. I feel insecure in that I dont feel his heart is complete toward me, and I dont feel he wants to be with me for the rest of his life. Not only is he not meeting my emotional needs, he refuses to when I tell him what I want from him to feel loved and wanted. He said if he did what I asked, it wouldnt mean anything, because it didnt come from his heart. He said "I'd puke if I had to do all of this." (ie...I love you's during the day, phone calls to say Hi, token gifts etc...just what he did for OW!)<p>It's 13 months since D day, I still dont feel secure that my marriage will make it. I worry that if it does OW will never allow us to take OC alone and that OW will always be a part of our life. I couldnt stand that. With no court order, she's pretty much free to call the shots.<p>I wanted H to wait a while till our relationship was on solid ground before visitation. But he wouldnt and all I can say is I will keep you informed as to how it all works out and what the end result was from him seeing OC and OW again.<p>I guess my final conclusion is that I think we saw OC too soon. It caused alot of new problems, probably set us back in time as far as our recovery, and for what? OC will not remember this visit. She is 6 months old. IT was for the gratification of my H and nothing more. A display of the selfishness that allowed the adultery to occur in the first place. After 9 months of not seeing each other and several months of not talking H & OW reconnected and that is a bad thing. I for my part will be happy to be the mediatior if H can indeed be a part of OC's life with a minimum of hassle to baby, our family or her family. But I dont think I can tolerate a life time of OW and H seeing each other and talking. You never know though, I never thought I keep an unfaithful husband around, and look where I am today. If my H comes around to fulfilling my most important emotional needs, and I feel secure in my relationship with him, maybe even that will be possible under the right circumstances.

Dear Heart,
You are a very strong woman. So many similarities in your story with mine. I too asked to wait on visitation till we were on stronger ground and had a chance to work on our marriage, but H also refused and started in without me. <p>My H also says what ever he does for me will never be enough or good enough, so he won't try, and that hurts. I feel he should be bending over backwards to try to make me feel loved and secure. <p>It has been 11 months past dday for me, so I can understand your feelings. <p>keep strong. <p>Tina

Dear HOH,<p>Welcome back. Recovery and visitation are both difficult rows to hoe. I know, I have been there and am there. Our visitation sounds similar to yours, except that our first two weekends of visitation took place for 8 hours in OW's house because OC was so young--about 6 months old. She would go off for the day and leave us with OC. (Gotta admit that the thought of jumping MR. J in OW's bed was pretty tempting--they were never in our bed and only in our house 2x, each for 5 minutes--no sex just picking up the dog. We no longer live in that house.<p>Have you considered telling your husband you feel like puking when you have to "give" him sex? Meeting emotional needs is really not an optional kind of thing in a marriage in recovery. Maybe there is some slight modification to what you ask for that would still meet your needs and he would find less objectional. I'll bet it is a control thing with him. What you are asking for feels like control to him and guys really resist control. Have you thought about a phone session with the Harleys?<p>Welcome back. Sorry that things are still kinda rocky.<p>MJ

Just my opinion. Dr. Phil was on the Oprah show again yesterday, discussing affairs and infidelity. Had a couple , a minister of all people, who had had an affair with a parishioner. He lost his job, everything. Dr. Phil told him in no uncertain terms, despite what realistic problems may have existed in the marriage, the choice to stray was his alone, and it was an illogical illegitimate choice and decision that was bad to all.That to do that betrayed not just the wife but also kids of the marriage.That he made the mess, basically, and would have to do anything the BS needed to make marriage right. In my opinion, if BS is not ready or willing for visitation, with OC, that should not happen. ANd, your H should be building mountains of emotional support for you to keep you, whether he likes it or not. He is responsible for his mess, he must fix it, not you.

Unhappy Wife<p>Amen.<p>Catnip =^^=

Unhappy Wife,
Thanks. You are correct.<p>Dawn

Here! Here! UnHappyWife ...

To Tina 71: About the waiting for visitation till the child was older & the marriage is on stable ground....I think you gave me that idea. I read it here, and I think it was you. It made alot of sense to me!<p>To MaryJanes: About the issue of men hating to be controlled. I think you hit the nail on the head. I printed a letter from Dr. Harley where he counsiled a WH how to make his BS feel loved. I asked him "Will you do this for me?" It encouraged about 6 I love you's a day, and a token gift & card at the end of the week. That's when he made the remark about "getting sick" if he had to do all of that. Not only did he Not do it for me, but he quit telling me he loved me the
one time a day (at bed) that he was doing. Now were down to @ once every 3 days!<p>I think he's rebelling agains my request. I think this is childish and once again hurtful. I did ask him how he'd feel if I said that when he asked me for something. He just stared at me, but he got the point. Not that it did any good. It ticks me off, and I feel just a little bit more love go out the window. You asked if I could compromise on my original request. Actually I could have. But he didn't have the desire to anything at all, so I didt feel motivated to bring it up. That article is burried under magazines next to the bed, occasionally I put it on top (with the note "will you do this for me?" still attached to it. Thats as far as Im willing to go. More and more I feel like I dont really care, and that actually takes some of the pressure off me. Waiting for something special that never comes.<p>To UnhappyWife: Yes!!!!! Even his family tells me I'm doing too much....but they don't know about marriage builders!<p>All you guys are great! I missed you while I was gone. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

HOH,<p>I hope you don't mind me breaking in here. You said something that touched a nerve with me and it has taken me awhile to figure out why. Your request "will you do this for me?" sounds pretty innocent doesn't it???<p>Yet, it set off all sorts of bells for me. I cannot speak for your H, but a request like that from my W would sound like she is "ordering" me to do it. Why? I don't know, maybe it is rebelling against my Mother telling me to take out the garbage, or her "asking" me to dig flower gardens for her, so that she could plant something. (which she never did). In some ways it seems to me you are telling him "he must say this and he must say it this way or it won't count."<p>It is a subtle thing, but it has the ring of an "or else" type of demand. I realize you don't mean it to sound this way.<p>So in that vain, could I offer you a suggestion? Could you sit down with your H and ask him to help you solve your problem. Now most guys like to solve problems and he might be ameanable to some problem solving.<p>What is your problem? Can you define it? Can you or are you willing to discuss options on how the solution might look, how it might work, are you open to HIS suggestions on how he might solve the problem?<p>Do you see where I am coming from? Your request doesn't sound like a request to him and you are right it seems he is rebeling. On the other hand if he gets to join the "team" and have some input into this perhaps he might not fight it. It might become something he looks forward to. Is there possibility of adding some humor to it. Some interesting and unusual way for him to say "I love you" that is a bit silly, but lets you know that he does??<p>HOH, think about this. Talk with your H about this. I don't think he wants to lose you, but you must realize that you almost lost him. He may not be as convinced that this will work as you are (and I don't think you are all that sure), but if he thinks he is getting the "my or the highway", he might chose the "highway". That is not in either of your's best interest from what you have said.<p>So think about it and see what you think.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Your request doesn't sound like a request to him and you are right it seems he is rebeling. On the other hand if he gets to join the "team" and have some input into this perhaps he might not fight it. It might become something he looks forward to. Is there possibility of adding some humor to it. Some interesting and unusual way for him to say "I love you" that is a bit silly, but lets you know that he does??<p>HOH, think about this. Talk with your H about this. I don't think he wants to lose you, but you must realize that you almost lost him. He may not be as convinced that this will work as you are (and I don't think you are all that sure), but if he thinks he is getting the "my or the highway", he might chose the "highway". That is not in either of your's best interest from what you have said.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>If any woman has to humiliate herself by walking on eggshells, jumping through hoops, manipulating the conversation through liguistic gymnastics to get something simple as a declaration of love from her husband, then she is living with a child. A big selfish freaking baby. Not a man with compassion heart and soul...just a petulant, mean-spirited child.<p>JL, with all due respect, I completely and emphatically disagree with your suggestion that any BS not be honest and forthright with his or her spouse to simply ask for what they need, as openly and honestly as they can, with love in their heart. Anything or any other tactic is just a lot of dishonest and manipulative work.<p>According to Harley, we are SUPPOSED to tell our spouses, honestly and openly what we need and reciprocate by openly listening to our spouses as what they need from us. It is then our job to do everything we can to meet their needs once we know what they are...and vice versa.<p>Catnip =^^=

JL,
You struck a nerve with me as well. As BS, we have bent over backwards to keep our marriages in tact. Maybe you come to a point in recovery where this is just the natural process, but I refuse to pussyfoot around the issues. I plan A'd for months, he is still here. I am now standing my ground. I try not to be B%^chy about it, but I also refuse to coddle my h.
He is a grown man who made a grown up mistake...a grave one. If he wants our marriage as badly as I, he will do whatever it takes to make it work. I don't think it is anything out of the ordinary to expect a truly remorseful WS to call and declare his love daily. To acknowledge that love with small gifts which show that he/she is truly trying to make things work.<p>"I would puke..." Well, then, puke outside of my home thank you very much.<p>Maybe, like I said before, it depends on where in recovery you are. It has been 16 months since d-day for us and I am beginning to assert myself a little more. H knows I will walk through fire for him. He has walked on hot coals for me...but I know that if he ultimately cant stand the heat of our love, passion, recovery, mutual understanding, and marriage...he can get the h#ll out of the kitchen.<p>Sorry, just struck a nerve with that one. I know you did not intend to do so. I am done ranting [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: tryin4sainthood ]<p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: tryin4sainthood ]</p>

Lady's,<p>No offense taken. In fact I am sort of glad you reacted this way. I points out something I was trying to delicately tell HOH. So I will go a bit further, and suggest something that you will like even less. I am sorry.<p>HOH said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To MaryJanes: About the issue of men hating to be controlled. I think you hit the nail on the head. I printed a letter from Dr. Harley where he counsiled a WH how to make his BS feel loved. I asked him "Will you do this for me?" It encouraged about 6 I love you's a day, and a token gift & card at the end of the week. <p>That's when he made the remark about "getting sick" if he had to do all of that. Not only did he Not do it for me, but he quit telling me he loved me the one time a day (at bed) that he was doing. Now were down to @ once every 3 days!<hr></blockquote><p>The point of my statement was not that she coddle him, but that she try a different approach with him. Now here is the part that you need to understand, WS don't LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO. They are not convinced that the marriage is for them on several levels. 1. THey are convinced something was wrong BEFORE the A. 2. Now that they have commited this awful act made worse by the presence of another child of which spouse is not biologically connected, they are very defensive and worry that they won't ever live it down.<p>This means that the BS is stuck with a hugh job. Job one is establishing communications THAT WORK. Apparently, the communications before the A wasn't working. Next, they have to heal and overcome this awful event. You the BS's get this task IF you want the marriage to continue.<p>It isn't fair, it isn't easy, it is painful, and it takes a long time. So far you haven't heard anything you don't know first hand.<p>What you may not appreciate is that men do communicate differently and they react to sensitive things differently. Based on what HOH told us, her H is not reacting well to her simple request. My take on it is that he is not hearing it as a request but more of an order.<p>Now I will tell about me personally. I WILL take orders from some I work for. I WON'T take orders from someone I am married to. Been that way for a long time and it will continue. <p>Frankly even when I was in the military I learned very early that the best commanders never really had to ORDER anyone to do something. Their subordinates already understood what the problem was, what the mission was, and what their role was. All they needed was the decision from the commander and it was a go.<p>Why did it work this way?? The commander had already communicated to his men what the situation was, what needed to be done, and the options that he had. It was called good communications.<p>I see marriage the same way. HOH expressed what she needed. This expression of need caused a rebellion. My thinking is he didn't hear her expression as she intended it. She has two options. Continue using the same technique, and get the expected results: the end of her marriage. OR she can try a different technique and maybe have a chance to get what she needed.<p>THe bottom line is the WS is usually the last to fall in line with the rebuilding, especially if there are some past histories. We don't know why HOH's H felt the need for an affair or the state of their communications before the A.<p>My point is that you have a right to feel that my suggestion should never have to be acted on. But, the question that needs to be answered has been asked around here before: "Would you rather be right, or married?" <p>All have to make those choices. I do hope that this post clears up my thinking abit.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: Thanks for the responses. Even if you don't agree, it helps define and clarify the different views. Hopefully, that will help someone.<p>PPS: I had to come back to say one last thing. The fact that we (you ladies and myself) see this thing so differently suggests exactly the problem I was trying to address. You see it as coddling, and I see it as speaking HIS language. Frankly, I don't know if it will work. I would hope that it would.<p>Bye. (This time I am done, really [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

To play a little devil's advocate... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When does the WS need to communicate the way the BS needs? Our affair occurred for two reasons:
1. Conflict avoidance.
2. A need to be needed.<p>I have communicated with my h in the way he wants as much as I am able. The biggest issue for h is he still wants to avoid anything that makes him feel uncomfortable. I have asked for him to tell me what he needs. He will often reply that he does not know. He often does not even know what is bothering him or denies that there is a problem. Yet, he is miserable. Not all the time, but we just had a discussion about how he hates his job. Yet, he will not make any effort to change that fact. We have had many discussions where I have made it abundantly clear that he can do whatever he needs in the area of his career.<p>I cannot fill a void with anything if he will not acknowledge that there is one. The one thing that concerns me the most with HOH situation is that her h does not seem to be willing to do very much to repair the marriage. He seems to want his cake and eat it too.<p>My h has been doing as much as he can and following the Harley principles to repair our marriage. He has been extremely supportive and understanding of my emotions with regard to the affair. He has basically done all I have requested of him and I do not believe that I have been demanding. I, of course, am biased and believe that my requests have not been out of line. He still has many moments, however, where he is just clueless that he is not an entity unto himself and that his life and emotions affect others.<p>Yes, communication is the key to a successful marriage, but I do not understand, and may never, how letting your h know what you need after he chose to stray is a controlling issue. Yes, there were obviously problems before the affair, but continuing to deny what is needed for BOTH is not the way to go. She is lying on the floor in tremendous pain, that he caused, and he cannot get up from the bed and comfort her. And then, when she lets him know how he can help her, he replies...I would puke?!?!?<p>If my h had responded in that way at all and not been willing to do whatever it took, I would have walked long ago. My h is obviously no angel, but when it gets down to it, he shows that he loves me when I am hurting the most. I dont think that is too much to request or demand. However you wish to put it.<p>Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, but we have to coexist here on Earth.

tryin,<p>You won't get any arguement out of me. I tend to agree with your line of thinking. But, what I am suggesting that perhaps HOH's H response is NOT out of not caring, but rather out of defensiveness. <p>I guess after reading here, the one thing I have noticed is that the differences between men and women is smaller than the difference between the BS and WS. I sure have seen a lot of women WS's go up in smoke when their H's have made what to most of us would seem very sensible requests.<p>I don't HOH's H, I don't know what kind of personality he has, nor HOH. I don't know many things, but my suggestion is based on two things. She wants to rebuild if it can happen and his response to this "request" was not what she wanted.<p>It could be his defensiveness, it could be her "neediness" is driving him away (This is often seen from the WS). I don't know.<p>The one thing that I have learned is that there are alot of people out there much stronger and willing than I could be. More interestingly they do make it. I stand in awe of the strength and hope I seen on this board.<p>I do hope you realize that I do agree with your statements.<p>God Bless,<p>JL