[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dawn71:
[QB]CM,<p>dawn -"I just wanted to say that the OM in your case is not being a father to his son. He has stayed away for the sake of his M and his kids. You see that UW wants."<p>Sort of, the OM in my case was not give the choice to be a father to my son. It wasn't what I wanted. He was open to the idea of working it out and I wasn't. That very feeling came as a shock to me because I had always thought if I ever became pregnant with his child I'd have done things differently. I guess I didn't know myself as well as I thought. That is my message to UW too.
My om W may have left him, I don't know and neither did he. But if I had wanted him to be or needed him to be father, he would have done so. at least that is what he told me. I have no reason to doubt him. He struggles with my H raising child now but believes as I do that it is the best decision for the child. As I told UW, her H being a very part time father isn't the best thing for baby but it's better than being an absent father. <p>dawn -"Your H is being the daddy. Why can't OW find a man that is single to be OC daddy? What if OW was married like you would be o.k for UW H to stay away? Why is it for your OM to stay and not UW's H? Just because you have someone to be the daddy? You see OW knew he already had a family and did not care. If OW wanted a full time daddy then should not have gotten involved with a married man."<p>If H didn't want to be a part time daddy he shouldn't have had an affair. If husband didn't want a divorce he shouldn't have had an affair. And that hindsight thinking gets us where? We are where we are. OW didn't get pregnant by herself. Child didn't ask to be conceived. And so, life goes on.
I want to rebuild my M I am finding that my decision wasn't the best one, not telling my H the truth. If he decided to raise son then it would have been his choice. That would be the only thing I would want to change. I wouldn't want to change the fact that my H is my son's father. Why? Because I believe a child needs both parents. In UW case, OW is single. So yes, to me it makes a difference! OW told H she wants him to father their child. It is his responsibility. He accepted it. I see now that although I didn't need a father for financial support, I chose my H and I made a choice for him that he should have made for himself. That is my only regret regading chosing my son's father.<p>"Childern can sense when something is wrong and if UW's H has these emotions when he sees OC. Then how is seeing the OC helping the OC?"<p>I don't know how is acts or feels when with the child. I think UW only knows what he says when he's with her and she is asking for him to choose. If he wants to be with child I would imagine those visits are met with some happiness on part of H. Otherwise he wouldn't want to be there.

CM,
Yes, your OM has a choice to be the father. He can go to court and get joint custody. Just because he might of want to see OC does not mean that he wanted to divorce his W and marry you. H<p>The only person that doen't not have a choice right now is your H because you are holding the truth for him and that is unfair.<p>
You said that UW H should not have had an affair if he did not want to divorce. I believe that should go for you too and your OM. <p>
So, if OW did want UW's H in OC life then that would be just fine to you? Are you saying that it is the OW choice if she wants the father in OC life? That it is what it seems to me.<p>
Dawn<p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dawn71:<p>dawn -"Yes, your OM has a choice to be the father. He can go to court and get joint custody. Just because he might of want to see OC does not mean that he wanted to divorce his W and marry you."<p>Actually he doesn't have a choice. Or maybe I should say he doesn't feel that he has one. He wants our son and his 2 other children to be happy - his motivation prevents any other choice.<p>His name isn't on the birth certificate and as I understand it, it's quite a process to change that now. When as more time passes, he will loose all his legal rights that currently exist.
OM and I talked about divorcing and raising child together. It was an option we both felt should be explored although we both felt that although the adults would recover, the situation wasn't best for the children involved. I don't know if he would have followed through with it or not because it wasn't I really wanted at that stage of our A,and so it didn't play out that way. <p>dawn -"The only person that doen't not have a choice right now is your H because you are holding the truth for him and that is unfair."<p>I don't argue this point with you or anyone. But I won't jump into telling him. It will be in conjunction with my mc if and when I tell him. I read just today a bs post here where he said he'd be happier if he never knew. It makes me think long and hard about it.<p>dawn -"You said that UW H should not have had an affair if he did not want to divorce. I believe that should go for you too and your OM."<p>No, I said that in reply to your statement about if the ow didn't want to be single parent then she shouldn't have had A with MM. I don't believe that. I don't believe that we go into these matters thinking that way at all. And I don't think that is rationale thinking in working out solutions to the consequences.<p>dawn -"So, if OW did want UW's H in OC life then that would be just fine to you? Are you saying that it is the OW choice if she wants the father in OC life? That it is what it seems to me."<p>No, what I am saying is that the ow didn't get pregnant by herself. She doesn't own 100% responsibility. In my case, if I had to do it all again, if I had known then what I know now about how I'd feel about having OM child, what I'd do differently is simply tell H about child and A and let him decide if he wanted to stay and be father to child. I'm in a different situation because I'm married and UW OW is single. If my H said no then OM would have assumed role. OW in this case doesn't have that option to pick and choose. I believe every child's birthright is 2
loving parents. If it's part time, its not ideal but its better than an absent parent. There are already too many dead beat parents out there. I think UW and her H could work this out and ow could be cut out of picture all together. That is all I'm saying.

CM<p>You said that <p>"OW in this case doesn't have that option to pick and choose". I believe you are wrong. There a lot of men out there that she can pick and choose from.<p>Do you honestly believe that if your H did not want to be the daddy that OM would tell his W so he could be the daddy? If that is the case why not go to his wife and tell her now? If OM does not tell his W and sneaks around see OC? how is that good for OC? <p>Just some questions for you to think about.<p>OM can go to your H and tell him that OC is not his son. But he won't because he does not want to hurt his W and his childern. He does not want them finding out. If he does not want them finding out what make you so sure that he would take responsibilty for OC? You have let him off the hook. He has not taken responsiblity for his actions. <p>I believe that once everything comes out in the open that you might see things differently.<p>If that times come, you will need all the support you can get. This board has help me and I hope that has done the same for you. I hope that your M will survive. I have read your responses and it has help me a little see the OW side of it.<p>Unfortunately, every situation is different. And sometimes the best thing to do for the OC is to stay away regardless if OW is married or not. Like your OM has done. Not all OW are like you! You have to take each case separtely. <p>There are other OW here that believe that no contact could be the best thing for OC. And not all of them are married.<p>Well, my H was adopted and he said that was the best thing that happened to him. He did not have a father it was just his mom and him. He turned out o.k. His parents could not afford him so they gave him up. Yes, his parents were married but they already had 6 kids. He is thankful that they had the courage to give him up for that because he had a better life because of it.<p>Single people are now allow to adopt childern. Childern can come out happy and healthy in a one parent home. <p>
Dawn<p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]<p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]<p>[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</p>

CM, when I said you had no idea until you tell your H, I was not referring to anyone, nor UW. I will explain what I meant.<p>You have no idea how you will change when your H finds out.<p>By the way, does your OM's W know of OC?<p>Why are you so afraid of your H knowing the truth? Are you afraid of the consequences? What might those be?<p>Please share.<p>ember

c miranda. I know you think you are truthful with yourself, but you are not.Fact is, whenn you had the affair with MM, you were not thinking of his kids. Did not care about them.If you had, you would have realized that having an affair with their dad would have been destructive to them. Let's face it, having an affair with anyone who is married with kids affects the people the married person is with. In my and your case, the WS had children. YOu have hurt the kids, and their family, whether you admit it or not. If the wife finds out about the OC and his children, trust me, you will hurt them. That is the truth.<p>I am not going to defend my feelings about the OC . THere is no room in my heart for that child. THere is not even room in my heart for my H most days. <p>I would like to hear from others who have changed their mind about incorporating OC into your lives-such as CD, heavenly, zebra baby, and a few others who tried OC visits and then gave them up.?This is still my question-- how did your husbands change their mind about contact? And has it helped your marriage and family life recover from this?

unhappy wife,<p>I think the biggest issue is that your H is not committed to your marriage and children over the OC, and would still lie in order to see the child. The Harley policies are not in effect in your marriage, and you might have to Plan A or Plan B or something. I really hope YOU get a good counselor, even if your H won't go, because this is an ugly situation; your marriage cannot survive continuing this way. Have you tried calling the Harleys for counseling??? I think your mariage is worth the cost.<p>In our case, H (the conflict-avoider) told pregnant XOW before DDay that he would give up whatever it took to have OC in his life (marriage, career, etc.). After DDay, beginning recovery, and his total recommitment to our marriage, he rapidly changed his tune, though he didn't tell XOW right away. He "saw the light" and understood that he still had a chance to save his marriage and his relationship to OUR children, rather than be a half-***ed absent father to them all, with no wife at all. <p>We moved out of state and never met OC. We send OC things and are open to meeting OC if OC ever wants it, but we are too far away for normal visitation and still haven't told our children. At this point, H does not regret the lack of contact w/OC, only that he screwed up so very badly in the first place. <p>IMO your marriage needs the Policy of Joint Agreement and Policy of Honesty in operation for your marriage to succeed. If your H cannot commit to at least TRYING these policies to try to make your marriage work...? Plan B? Like I said, I hope you access a good MB-friendly counselor.

UW,
I am sorry for getting off your topic. I am really not in the position that you are in. All I can say that you will be in my prayers. Hopefully, you get the answers soon.<p>Dawn

UW, Thank you for rememering me and soliciting my story/advice... I will respond shortly, but I have something quick for CM.<p>CM, you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Don't let his ill feeling rationalize his responsiblities as a parent. I don't mean financial here, emotional. Children need to feel loved. Money can't buy love.
<hr></blockquote><p>The very best part of your quote was the TRUTHyou typed.<p>
Children need to feel loved.<p>Fact is, so many of these men do not love these children. Plain and simple. They didn't want the child. They didn't participate in the happy preparations for the birth. They didn't rejoice at the moment of birth. They don't celebrate the fact that they have contributed to the DNA and very existence of this child. Truth be told, they were unwilling sperm donors.<p>CM... I think if you believe what you wrote, you should also believe that NO CHILDshould be put into a situation where the "parent" doesn't love it. That child will feel that lack of love and it will cause volumes of damage in the long run. <p>And remember.. this isn't a dog or other pet.. you just don't grow to love it one day. These children were concieved out of lies and sin. They will be forever thought of by their biological fathers as embarassments and only cause shame...no person who as you said: wants to protet the innocents, would wish that on any child.<p>So please, get off of this high horse you stand on and realize that these innocents are going to be hurt even more if these men are guilted into being a parttime, reluctant daddy.<p>And I agree with the other posters... this is not an area in which you have ANY experience in since you haven't even had to address this issue in a truthful and honestdialog with your husband, life and marriage on the line.<p>What the hell will you do if you H says he wants you to send your child to live with the bio-dad to save your marriage...I guess then we'd see what's most important to you. And then we'd see that you aren't a true MB advocate or study. Because I suspect you'd choose your child over your marriage.<p>
Now UW, I'll post my response you on another thread as this one is now tainted.<p>Z.

UW,<p>Thank you for tolerating my rant on your thread. I'm growing very weary of posters who tell or imply that the choice of NO CONTACT is a selfish whim of a BS who does't give a rats [censored] about the "innocent" OC.<p>Now, my story and how we got where we are.<p>D-day was winter 2000. Initially, in a desperate last ditch effort to "give" my H what he needed (since I had neglected his needs for so long) I enthusiastically supported his decision of contact. He told me this is what he wanted. I never thought it was strange that he only saw this eight month old 4-5 times it's whole life before d-day. You'd have thought that a man who "wanted" to be in contact with his child would have made more of an effort to see it, but that was not the case.<p>The OC spent a couple of nights with us and we got OC for a couple of outings. OW began to call us to be a babysitter a few times and H seemed annoyed. Mainly because it seemed all of a sudden since we initiated contact all her baby sitting options vanished. Go figure. <p>Then the phone calls for rides to and fro started. Rides home from work, rides to the doctor, you name it. I remember one afternoon we were heading out to his father's house for a huge family gathering and half way there the cell rings and it's OW saying she needed a ride home from work with OC (she worked at the daycare). My H was furious, he was being called on for a taxi... yet again. He said he couldn't do it and she fumed calling him every sort of "dead beat dad" in the book. <p>Yet another case of OW thinking her child comes before those of the marriage. Thinking her and her child are entitled to priority. There are many other stories of OW using OC as a tool to lure H into her daily life, but that post would be too darn long.<p>Later in discussions, H told me he kept thinking how every other weekend "our familiy's weekends" were going to be centered around how we could incorporate OC into our lives. It wasn't going to be a natural fit for our kids or us.<p>The straw that broke the camel's back was one afternoon he was holding OC at our house. Our kids were asleep and I asked him did he love OC. He paused, looked into that baby's face and said, "I feel like I'm baby sitting someone else's kid."<p>I think at that moment he realized that he couldn't love that child like he loves our own. And that someday OC will look into his eyes and recognize that fact.<p>Later he told me something else contributed to his decision to end contact. He said he saw me holding OC many times and couldn't bare the pain in my eyes. Believe me UW, I tried to mask that pain. I was and am so determined to make my marriage work. I firmly believe that if a spouse doesn't meet the other's emotional needs the marriage doesn't have a leg to stand on. I was attempting to meet his needs by being strong and supporting his desire to be a "daddy". Little did I know that desire was guilt driven.<p>I guess if I can give you any advice at all it would be... DO NOT USE THAT CHILD AS AN ULTIMATUM. I has to be his choice, his decision. Then and only then you have to look inside yourself and see what you can handle. <p>Would I have grown accustomed to having OC in our lives? Probably. Would I have been HAPPY about it? No. Was it a sacrafice I was willing to make? Hell yes. Why? Because I was willing to put my marriage before my own desires. I was living up to Harley principles.<p>If my H truely felt in his gut that he loved that child and wanted to be with with it, I would have been willing to allow that child to live in this house full time, no questions asked. That's how strongly I felt about salvaging this marriage.<p>I think my husband recognized that fight in me and it made him fall right back in love with me. One thing you should know is that H's number one complaint was that I didn't give a crap about what he wanted and all I cared about was my career. He was right. I had grown into a shallow work-a-holic. It was like a chain reaction I feed off of his lack of attention. Both of us not meeting one another's needs.<p>I'm happy to say that both of us now recognize the errs in our ways and have dramatically corrected our beaviours.<p>Step one for you might be to suspend contact. Give it a time frame. Six months or a year? And in that six months or so agressively try to address the issues in your marriage. It is sooooooo hard, damn near impossible to focus on one another and the marriage with the OC/OW issues lurking and surfacing daily/weekly.<p>Once you guys get on a level field on the marriage front, you are going to have to make some tough decisions on what you are willing to accept when it comes to OC. It's going to take a lot of soul searching. But again... what's more important your marriage or your wants? (and you know what.. you might just fall so maddly in love with your H that you don't give a damn who's kid is in your life [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>If contact is what you choose to support then agree on the rules and terms.<p>If no contact is what you stand firm with you have to express this to your H and he will then be confronted with the same choice. His wants or the marriage.<p>I guess the trick (if you want to call it that) is to create an atmosphere in the marriage where the OC is just another important decision like a second mortgage or buying a new house. You only make decisions like that when the marriage is solid. No wise couple would get a second mortgage if they were heading for divorce. No wise couple should have visitation if they are heading for divorce either.<p>Hopefully your H will understand that the groundwork must be laid for a solid foundation (marriage) before any other life altering decisions can be made. With any luck he'll allow your marriage this time to heal without outside interferrence. Lord knows we have enough outside interrerence from kids, bills, jobs, etc.<p>And one side note...if your H is at all a believer in the bible, once you guys are ready to address the OC issue, have him read the Sarah/Abraham story in Genesis. It helped relieve my H of a lot of guilt. <p>Best of luck my friend, I look foward to seeing your growth and hearing of your successes... they are sure to come.<p>Open mind... Open heart.<p>Read my signature....it's helped me in the darkest hours.<p>Z. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: zebrababy ]</p>

UW,<p> I am sure more that the fact that he has seen his child, the fact that he lied hurts more. <p>I dont think, while some of these principles and concepts make great sense, I dont believe they all fit every person.
Giving an ultimatum you may not like what he chooses. While I understand you have no desire to parent this child, his bond may have been made ..not out of guilt but love. That would be hard to say ok I am done loving this child.
Then again, maybe he dosnt have love, and it is a guilt thing driving him to see baby.. If this is the case, it may be a great way out and he will thank you for it. <p> But if you truly love your husband and want to stay married, then I dont think you should make a rash decision think long and hard about it first.
just a thought, and please I know not every one agrees with me.. dont get upset THIS is just an opinion nothing more.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebrababy:<p>baby you said: "Fact is, so many of these men do not love these children. Plain and simple. They didn't want the child. They didn't participate in the happy preparations for the birth. They didn't rejoice at the moment of birth. They don't celebrate the fact that they have contributed to the DNA and very existence of this child. Truth be told, they were unwilling sperm donors."<p>Whose fact? Yours? I have offered to UW my feelings and they aren't wrong. They are what I believe and have known in my experience. Just because I don't agree with some of the opinions here does not negate my experiences.
My ex-om did not respond to my pregnancy as you seem to think. My A didn't end becausse he wanted it to. <p>baby said: "I think if you believe what you wrote, you should also believe that NO CHILDshould be put into a situation where the "parent" doesn't love it. That child will feel that lack of love and it will cause volumes of damage in the long run."<p>I agree. But I also don't think an adult (ws in this case) should be back into a corner forced to choose between their own child and their M. It seems child like for an adult to feel so threatend by a child. I realize what the child represents, but you have decided to stay with spouse and make M work. So with that, I don't understand it.<p>baby said: "this isn't a dog or other pet.. you just don't grow to love it one day. These children were concieved out of lies and sin. They will be forever thought of by their biological fathers as embarassments and only cause shame...no person who as you said: wants to protet the innocents, would wish that on any child."<p>I don't think all of the fathers feel that way. Actually, I know it. If my ex-om concurred with your thinking then he wouldn't have on numerous occasions asked about how we can reverse the path were on in regard to parenting our son. If he were so concerned with shame and embarrasment, I doubt he'd initiate these ideas. If he felt so much shame, he'd stay on the path I created, and let it go.
Don't assume to know how all fathers feel. <p>baby said: "get off of this high horse you stand on and realize that these innocents are going to be hurt even more if these men are guilted into being a parttime, reluctant daddy."<p>Again, it all depends on who the man is and the nature of his relationships with wife and OW. What kind of husband are they when they are quilted into ignoring a child they do want? UW husband is pulling away in part, it seems, because she has given him an ultimatim. Why would a man sneak to see his child if all feel as you describe?! There have been posts I've read here, one in particular is momof5, the people involved in her D's life are truly amazing.
I like my view, it may be idealistic and maybe it'll change or not.<p>baby said: "I agree with the other posters... this is not an area in which you have ANY experience in since you haven't even had to address this issue in a truthful and honestdialog with your husband, life and marriage on the line."<p>While I haven't discussed with my H as you say, I have plenty of experience in dealing with all the feelings of abandoment (another story) and disappointment, of being a ws and an ow. If you don't agree, that is okay. I don't agree with your view but I can accept it. Lets not steal this thread from UW.<p>
baby said: "What the hell will you do if you H says he wants you to send your child to live with the bio-dad to save your marriage...I guess then we'd see what's most important to you. And then we'd see that you aren't a true MB advocate or study. Because I suspect you'd choose your child over your marriage."<p>I must have missed the boat here! I'd choose my son over any other human being on this earth. He is 21 months old and he needs me, I don't even know why I'm explaining that! I love him beyond words, more than my own life. My H is a grown man who would survive without me without life long scars. Are you comparing a child's need for a mother/father to an adults need for a wife or husband? That sounds too dependent coming from an adult. If ws is willing to work on marriage that should be reassuring enough. In UW case, her H isn't doing that.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ember:<p>ember said: "You have no idea how you will change when your H finds out."<p>I know. I am scared to death that he and I will be split because no one here except for a few can even begin to understand how i feel. The WS and the BS seem worlds apart.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. I have been trying to be empathetic to all bs feelings here. I try to imagine my H feeling how people here do. <p>
ember said: "By the way, does your OM's W know of OC?"<p>No, she doesn't Neither of our spouses do at this point. I had put a plan in motion on my own when I became preganat because I wanted what was (at the time) best for everyone. I didn't want to hurt anyone, not my H, not OM or his W or kids. Despite what people think, I know that our A was deceitful but I didn't intentionally set out to hurt anyone, mostly his children. I fell in love with the wrong man and I didn't make the best decisions at the time. <p>ember said: "Why are you so afraid of your H knowing the truth? Are you afraid of the consequences? What might those be?"<p>I've read about how bs react and I've read how much they hurt. Now that I'm getting getting thru withdrawl, I see it more clearly now.
I also don't want om coming into my son's life now. My h is the only father my son knows and they love eachother so much. That is why I am so fearful. More broken hearts. <p>Please share.<p>ember[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

EVERY ONE hurts and wants to work out their lives or they wouldnt be here, but I guess if my husband said give your daughter away to OM and pretend she didnt grow inside me and I didnt nurture and love her, If he was that selfish and un loving towards a child that he has known about and chose to stay around. Then I would have to say, I am sorry to see you go. I think asking a mother what she would do if her spouse wanted her to give a way a child is an unbelievable question.
I work on my marriage daily as does my husband, but in the same respect I deal with all he has done to me with reguard to other women, he chooses to deal with what I have done. And if he asked me to do something such as this, I would say he didnt really love me and it was time for me to go. With my children all of them, for I love each and every one of them.
Now this does not mean, I odnt understand UW, I do understand, reading her post reminded me painfully of my husband using the internet for his own needs and meeting women off there, he has done a lot of damage by doing this, but he has done so much more, it would do me no good to rehash it. But I work at trying to forgive him as he does me.
I hate the internet so much, I wouldnt dare go into a chat room or let my children, it bothers me that there are women out there, searching for married men. It is frankly sick. sounds funny coming from me I would guess, but it is how I feel, But what I have learned from here that I never new before. That I spent all those years blaming other women, to the point that I trusted no one ever, thought all women were after my husband. (again paranoid) but thats what I did. So I DO UNDERSTAND WHY ALL THE HATE AND ANGER. I just know now that there are so many circumstances and while all are painful. I think we have to all learn to accept each other as people and try and understand.
so while we dont all like the other woman and oc child because it is painful, we cant expect a mother to not love her child. I dont love my child less because she has a different DNA than my other children.
I gave every one in her life a choice, You could either love her and accept she was in my life, or you could walk away and I would live with that as well. But if you choose to stay around she was part of the package.
While I gave him a choice to walk away ,as a mother I could not run from this baby. Right or wrong I needed to do what was best for her.

SO I gave my husband an ultimatum as well for the good of my child as uw is doing with hers. I told my husband he could stay and help raise her or he could go. He said get an abortion, and I said I will miss you. was it fair? I guess not.
I would have loved this site 16 years ago, Maybe things would have been different.
UW sounds as if she really loves her husband so I hate to see a marriage break up. I know it is hard, I wish you were able to find a way your husband could see his child and not see the other OW.
I dont know how a parent can live with the pain of not seeing their child. I am not a father but I couldnt bear to do it myself.
I hope it works out for you.

Momof5,
I'm not the first to say that bonding is a different experience for the man/father than for the mother who must carry the infant in utero, esp. when the couple is not together. I do NOT think it is the same emotional empact to ask a noncustodial father to give up contact vs. asking a custodial biological loving mother to give up contact. It really depends on whether the man has any bond/feelings for that child yet. <p>Likewise, giving up contact with a child is a different experience after one has spent time bonding with that baby or child. That goes for biodad, step-mom, half-sibs, grandma, whoever!

It does matter the circumstances regarding the parents involvement in the child's life and the bonding process.
In my experience, even the lack of a strong bond with the child creates a heart wrenching situation for the biological parent who is left out. However, I've found that really good parents can put aside their own self serving needs and desires for their children, as Momof5 has (and always does so well ) explained. I am not as good as she, at stating the facts, I do get emotional over all of this turmoil. It isn't easy by any means to be a "good" parent and put the wreakage of our own adult lives aside and make choices for the betterment of the whole rather than the individual. I believed (as did om) that was exactly what we were doing by creating a safe and happy environment in our existing marriages and walking away from our A. It should have been done alot sooner but at least we did it.
I feel that asking a parent, whether a custodial parent, a biological parent, a step-parent, (whatver flavor of parent) to choose is selfish. I realize that having the A was selfish. I realize as a ws that alot of what I have done throughout my A was selfish. I am here because I want to make a mends and really rebuild. I don't know that I buy into all of the principals taught here but this site has given me hope and a new respect for myself and all of people who have endured and survived an A. If because I wouldn't choose my H over my son makes me a lousy study, then I can accept that. I don't feel so comsumed with hate and anger toward anyone.
Whether it be by force (ultimatim & guilting the WS) or by enabling (letting WS off hook because it's best for marriage and finances and not OC) doesn't seem to be in anyones best interest except the bs. That would be just as selfish as the ws who had the affair. All that selfishness doesn't make for a solid foundation to rebuild on, seems like more dysfunction in the marriage.
I competely agree with Momof5, if faced with the choice, I would say goodbye to H. OM will never be allowed to raise child with his existing family and me be out of the picture.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by unhappy wife:<p>
You are right UW, my A with MM was destructive to everyone involved. I don't know completely how it affected his M, although I know it did, as it hurt mine almost beyond repair. All that I can say is I didn't know what I know now. I know this will sound like an excuse or some kind of cop out, but I am being honest here. I never had any intention of hurting his children or destroying his M. yes, I there was a time that I wanted a D and wanted him to leave his W. There was a time when he wanted the same but I didn't. It was a mixed up mess but there was no malice forethought to ruin the lives of our spouses or kids. We were just (as we described ourselves many times) confused and didn't know how to get out of our relationship and live without eachother.
I had no idea what the affair would do to om, me or our marriages. OW and WS like me can only now try to undo the pain and move on. I wish you could understand how hurtful the A is the WS and OP. If you could empathize with that, you would not be so hard on yourself and feel so down about yourself as the bs.
I do believe as you say, his W and kids, my H and son will be devastated by the truth of our 61/2 year A coming out. That is the very reason I don't want it to. I don't want that for anyone, not just my own family. I may have loved her husband but I never hated her. I may have loved my H but I was in love with OP. (at the time) I was torn for all those years between doing the right thing and loving him. Its not an excuse, just how I felt. It was a mistake to think all my problems would go away because I found someone who made me happy. We all make mistakes, UW, but if your heart has the capcity to forgive, you elude becoming a prisioner of your hate. In my experience, those bad feelings only imprision the keeper.

CM,<p>I think what you are missing is that UW's H is not in love with her. He shows all of the signs of not caring if the marriage stays together, and if it does it will be on his terms. One, thing I think is confusing the situation is that it cannot be determined is whether his apparent devotion is to OC or the OW.<p>You apparently felt your H didn't love you or didn't do it well enough so went off and had an affair. The point is your OM felt the same way. Now why do you suppose he hasn't told his W? It could be he doesn't want to hurt her, but it could also be he doesn't want to lose her. CM your issue isn't hurting your H, you already have, I doubt seriously that he is happy in this marriage and has been for the 6 years. Your efforts were elsewhere. The issue is whether he will stay or not.<p>If he stays, he will have decided to be the father of your child. If he leaves, you state you don't really care because your child is the major if not only focus of your life.<p>But, what you must admit is that you will never be in a situation where you find out your child is not yours. Your OM has not had to deal with what his W feels about his commitment to your child. Perhaps he won't ever, but perhaps he will.<p>I am sorry but most of your posts seem like you are protecting yourself and your OM. Whether that is completely true now I cannot tell, but it is certain from what you say, that for 6 years it certainly was.<p>CM, I keep asking myself why I post to you. THe only answer I can come up with is I feel so sorry for you and your H. Sorry for you because although you are an adult, you have managed to put yourself into a truely terrible position. Sorry for your H because I hate to see a defenseless human being taken advantage of. <p>You are a first time mother and it is clear that you have not realized one thing. Children are not defenseless. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] They have a way of getting people to take care of them that is truely remarkable. Your focus on your child is normal, but I think you are hiding your own feelings about this situation behind it.<p>You see UW should not stay in a marriage where her H disrespects her, may well still be involved with the OW. He needs to first and foremost address his marriage, and he is not.<p>In someways you are a bit different, you apparently are starting to address your marriage. You are beginning to consider your H in this process and I hope that you continue. Your protection of him by not telling will probably do the same damage to your marriage that spoiling a child does to them when they become adults. They are deprived of the learning experience of facing reality. It kills marriages and it definitely hurts children.<p>CM, everyone agrees that a nuclear family is best for children. But, UW is not bound to her H for life. Why? Because he did the one thing that even the Bible says is grounds for divorce and he compounded this mess by bringing another child into the world. She has every right to leave him, especially since he has made little attempt to rebuild the marriage.<p>I don't know why I am rambling, but as long as I am, I thought I would ask you. Do you have any idea why many WS's are accepted here and indeed embraced? Because the ones that generally come here want to rebuild their marriage. They help the people here, and they in turn receive as much help as possible. People (that would be me) love to see a happy ending. Frankly, it is my deepest wish that you tell your H and that he loves you enough and your child enough to stay with you. I wish that eventually you will see what you have failed to see in him before. But, mostly I would love to see the two of you plus your son happy as a family.<p>THat is really what this site is about. Ironically, such happiness often comes with a lot of pain, a lot of work, and lot of self examination. Sometimes nothing helps and perhaps UW's situation will be such a case. Her H must decide to make the marriage better, must take honesty to another level than he has, must put OW out of his life, and finally must convince UW that he loves her. His actions todate have not done so. This isn't about the OC, this is about UW, her H, her family, and the OW.<p>I can assure you that if OM's W ever finds out about you, that she will not view you as a friend. With work,tremendous honesty, you might be viewed in a neutral light.<p>I apologize. I rambled sorry. CM listen to Momof 5, she has got this figured out. I think she is seeing the commonality in the different sides of these issues.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>I can see that UW H may not be in love with her. But I think he loves her. He is confused obviously. I'm not condoning his actions, but I tend to think he feels cornered by UW's ultimatiums. I too during my 6 year A felt indifferent toward M at times. When I felt cornered, I turned away too. But I came back from it. I'm not suggesting it took 6 years but it did take getting out of A. We really can't devote ourselves when we are trying to make more than one partner happy.<p>You are right about why I had an A. I imagine the same is true for OM. He has voids as he describes them that I fill(ed). He told me that he liked who he was and how he felt when he was with me. I can understand that because that is how I felt. If only we knew it could not sustain us. We just didn't know what we were getting into.
He hasn't told his W because he doesn't want to ruin his childrens lives and hurt his W. He thinks that since we ended it, we should suffer in silence and eventually we'll get over it, the feelings will go away on their own, and we will feel once again why we married our H/W. Ultimately, neither of us wanted to loose or hurt anyone. That is why we aren't together, I realize this. My issue is really about hurting my H. I don't want to him to leave M. But the plain truth is that if he did, I would survive on my own. I am financially self sufficient and I would make it alone. It isn't what I want because I do still love him and want to get back what we had. I do not want to hurt him the way the BS here have explained the hurt. How deep it runs. I never did realize how much it would hurt him. At one point I was wreakless in the A because I didn't think my H even cared if I had another man. I was wrong 2long.
I realized at some point it would hurt but never understood how deeply.<p>You are right, I won't be in a situation as you describe with child not being mine. But that doesn't mean that I would never be in a situation as UW.<p>OM hasn't had to deal with his W finding out about me or child or his ongoing interest in us. I've worried about that as long as I'm willing to and now I let it go. Its his problem to carry now. I have enough of my own to deal with. I have worried, out of protectiveness, if I tell my H and then OM W finds out. I can't worry about that anymore. For the first time in over 6 years, I want to and need to put my M and H before OM and his troubles. He is a big boy and I never forced myself into his life. We made our choices and now we must live with them.<p>No apologies, 2long. If my posts seem that way, I would like to hear about it. I feel that I've begun to turn the corner and really let go of OM. I can't make him and H happy at the same time. Too many conflicting interests I now see. <p>2Long, I'm not sure that I want your pity. Maybe I'm too stubborn. I would like your advice and to be called on the carpet if you think I'm missing the point or not understanding something. But no pity. Feeling sorry for myself is what, in part, kept me stuck in my A for so, so, long. Too long and it's a trap I am prone to.
2Long, I know my situation is not good. But I try not to dwell on it. I may be in denial I don't know. But what I am grateful for is the birth of my son. Not only because he is the light of my life but his existance has shown me how much my H does love me and what a wonderful daddy he is. Why? Because before I became pregnant, I had no faith in my H. I didn't believe he loved me, or that he really wanted a family with me and or that he would be a good father. I had no faith in him. I'm ashamed of how I felt back then. It was my circumstances that changed that. If not, I'd be divorced I believe by now.

I don't know if I'm hiding my feelings behind my son.?? I don't think I am. Children are defenseless. It is our job as adults, as parents, to guide them through life. To love them and protect them.<p>Your right about UW leaving marriage if H doesn't respect her and love her. All I'm suggesting is by forcing him to choose b/w her and OC is counterproductive at this point. Compromise isn't a bad thing. Maybe then he would put his M first. But he may be doing what you accuse me of, protecting OC, himself, OW even. He may feel like UW doesn't care anymore about him because he can't give her what she wants: His abandoment of OC. UW said it in one of her posts, she told her H oc had no place ever in their life. Don't you think this scared H into believing it was about OC? I see that H has alot to prove to UW and he isn't doing any of it. I don't think she should stay based on his actions today. But I understand why he is off in the other direction. <p>I wouldn't expect OM's wife to see me as her friend if and when she finds out about me and son. I never thought of her as my friend either. I am not looking for that. All I would want her to understnad is that no one intentionally set out to hurt. OM doesn't want to see my H hurt either. We were both unhappy in our M and that enabled us to be open to eachother and subsequently fall in love and stay in a very long relationship. No malicious plans to hurt or be hurt. It was naive of us but it happened, I can't undo it now.<p>Momof5 has got her self together, I couldn't agree more. Everything she says is on the mark in my eyes.<p>Thanks for your well wishes. I appreciate your ability to try to understand, coming from someone who has been as hurt as you have by your W, who is probably alot like me in some respects.
Only messed up people get into these situations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>OM hasn't had to deal with his W finding out about me or child or his ongoing interest in us. I've worried about that as long as I'm willing to and now I let it go. Its his problem to carry now. I have enough of my own to deal with. I have worried, out of protectiveness, if I tell my H and then OM W finds out. I can't worry about that anymore. For the first time in over 6 years, I want to and need to put my M and H before OM and his troubles. He is a big boy and I never forced myself into his life. We made our choices and now we must live with them. <hr></blockquote><p>CM,<p>Is the above meaning that you are going to tell your H about your S? I really hope so! See, in our situation(meaning you and I with having the OC) the pain that H feels is quite different than what the W's feel! Especially if your H is the one who is the "Daddy" to your S, and xOM is out of the picture! In cases like ours, yes, the C is a reiminder of what we've done, but if xOM is not involved, then the M can be worked on, and those missing voids can be filled by H! I don't think that you can truly heal your M if you are keeping something a huge as your S's paternity a secret! I still stand by my advice of telling your H and letting him decide what he want's to do. It's only fair, as everything else for 6 years, he had no choice in. He has a right to know. I hope I didn't step on any toes here, I just wanted to see if that's what you were saying here.<p>Tigger