C Miranda, I must reply to you. You have no idea what it is like to have another woman conceive your H's child. It is a pain like no other. The fact is, if your lover's wife finds out, and for her sake, perhaps she is better not knowing since MM is not involved with your child, I hope she never finds out.But she will be hurt and pained beyond measure.<p>Further, your excuse that you had no intent of hurting the MM's wife or kids is fool hardy. You are an adult. When you make decisions about what you do in life, you have the abililty to foresee the consequences of your actions. You and MM took a calculated risk, as my H and his OW did, to have an affair thinking it would never hurt anyone if no one knows. Fact is, that still is true in your own situation. Your H does not know of A or OC, and neither does MM"s wife. WHen or if they find out, trust me, you will be seen as some one who has hurt more than your own family. You have hurt people you didn't know, the MM"s family and children, willingly and mindfully, even if that wasn't your initial intent. WE know people in A's have as their intent to get it on with OP. But it comes with much more heartache.<p>At least my H admits he thought he would have A and not hurt me, or our marriage, because I would never know. he wouldn't tell me, I would never know.ANd since he was good at hiding it and saw OW so infrequently, it would have worked had OC not existed. THe OC brought out the secret.<p> And let's face it, the OW was happy with secret arrangement in my case, until OC was born.Then she was upset OC was "in the closet". Hello? It's o.k to screw another man secretly, but if he has impregnated you, now everyone should welcome OC and bring it to the open? What planet does she live on?<p>The fact is, my love for my H is over because he lied to me over and over. He gave me no choice but to accept OC to stay in marriage.He and OW set it up that way-he took more than a year after OC was born to announce the child's existence-after alleged bonding occurred on his part. and what am I supposed to do? Just accept and move on with marriage? He gave me no choice-as if his life and my life and our life together will adapt to anything. He and she took my choices away, in more ways than one. You all talk as if I should compromise and consider he having some contact to save marriage. What the heck do you think me and every other BS in this situation has done? We have compromised on'<p>1. infidelity being broken. I did not have an affair through more than 20 years of marriage.<p>2. ANother woman in my bed and home.<p>3. the birth of a child by OW when my own H admits I was the only one he wanted to have kids with. That was a sacred thing between he and I , now broken.<p>4. Money coming out of my income to support a child I had no say in, because the mother of OC
Had to be a mother. Please, that was a selfish thing on her part, since she could not provide even an apt. for both to live on on her own.<p>5.Emotional love given to OW, so says H, that rightfully was taken from his love to me.He claims he never stopped loving me. Irregardless, it has damaged a love I once valued.<p>There are many issues over which I have compromised, to try and see if this marriage will work, despite the many failings of my husband, but accepting the OC shouldn't be the one I need to compromise on.What is the WS compromising on? When do I feel and get some compromises from my H? And why must I compromise once again to keep the marriage? Frankly, with all his lies and decisions to do what he must do, because of his love and need to do the right thing, I have had it.
Today I realized, the love is gone. ANd I no longer am even sad about it. I have passed the grief and ready to move on. I have had enough. I think when your H learns of all you have done, Miranda, he may have had enough too, unless you compromise as well. <p>Just my thoughts.

Well said UW,<p>I think CM has a hard time relating to the reality of circumstances when the whole truth is out.<p>I reflect on Tigger's many many thoughtful posts. My most favorite OW on the boards. She never, ever pushes her opinions on contact/no contact. Her opinions are never slanted and she only speaks of what she has found successful in her relationship. She always give insightful suggestions on how to better communicate and grow the marriage. I love that about her.<p>(I just deleted a long rant on the inability of CM to really and truely empathize with your situation. She has no idea what it's like to feel like you are fighting for life or death. When saving your marriage feels like life or death.)<p>Z.

Z,<p>You make me blush!!!! I truly wish to help out in CM's situation! But, at the same time, I don't want to push. It's kinda like when you invite a non-christian friend to church. If you ask too many times, it becomes annoying to the friend, and they will never go. I do feel that CM wants to do what is best for her M, but is scared to death of the consequences. I can understand what she is feeling, but have lived through what I had done to my M. And am now enjoying the rebuilding of that relationship with Sailorman!(who is alseep on the couch after a morning of golf, go figure!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>CM,<p>Again, I truly just want to help you in your situation. To quote my father, "Advice is free. Free to take it or to leave it." I hope that I have been of some help to you, but understand if I haven't.<p>Tigger

Dear Unhappy Wife,<p>I empathize completely with your posts. I was standing where you are and know exactly what you are feeling. So many of your words hit home -- the loss of specialness in marriage, the loss of control over my own life and decisions. These are all things my H and the OW took away from me. And yes, my H's exOW was also willing to carry on an affair with him for nearly two years but wanted recognition as the "mother of his child" once the child was born.<p>There were days when I never thought we would make. Days when I hated him and what he had done to our lives. Like yours, my H sneaked around to see OC because I would not allow it. At the time he was confused and motivated by guilt -- not love. My H very candidly has told me that he never felt the same feelings for the OC that he does for our children. My H came from a broken home and he was worried about the OC he created. RESPONSIBILITY - that is what he felt.<p>He knew he has ruined the OW's life with his lies and false promises and he knew he had ruined the life of an innocent child by bringing her into an unwanted situation.<p>UW, no one can fully empathize who has not been in our situation. Men can be wonderful parents and love their children dearly, but they cannot ever have the deep emotional bond that results from growing life inside your body. <p>But UW, I have learned that most men do not see things the same way we do. If you are like me, when you think of the OC, you are superimposing your pregnancy -- remembering the joy you felt when sharing the news, remembering the gentle caresses of your H, the plans you made, the shopping trips -- all the things that make a child an extra-special event. My H told me that he could never be happy because he was stressed out, upset that the woman was pregnant, worried that I would find out or worse -- that she would tell me. He never felt the carefree joy of a child that is wanted by BOTH its parents.<p>My best advice to you is to stop placing your feelings over his feelings. This child is not like your children. This child was created by accident not by two people having the desire to build a family together. <p>And I also ask you to do one thing -- try plan B for a while before deciding to divorce. Believe me, I know how you feel about the constant lying and the lack of trust you must have right now. I know how impossible it is to understand that he cannot give up the OC, but he can give up his children with you (that one never made any sense to me... although my H explained it as feeling that I would take good care of our children while he was not sure that the OW would).<p>The list you gave of compromises you have already made would stagger the strongest person. But marriage is so sacred and this is such a confusing and sad situation. The pain and the anger need to be washed away before long-term decisions are made.<p>As bitter and miserable as I used to be, my H and I today are more in love than ever. Our relationship has blossomed into something more wonderful than I ever expected. But it took many years to get to this point.<p>And, most of all, it took forgiveness. I had to learn to give up my right to hurt my H because he had hurt me. That was the hardest lesson to learn and apply, but it is the one that turned my whole life around.<p>I am sorry this post is so long, but I felt that you needed to know that someone understands your feelings, they are completely valid and normal. You also need to know that many of us have lived through this horrible time in our lives to come out stronger and better than ever.<p>I hope you will give it some thought, plan B because your H is unwilling at this time to enter into a POJA. But please try to keep your mind open to falling in love again with your H. <p>Good luck to you and God bless you.
love,
heavenly

Excellent advice Heavenly (as usual)!!<p>So good to see you posting, Lady!!<p>Continued prayers,
J

I think heavenly made a good point concerning the differences between men and women when it comes to the child. Something I had a hard time realizing when I first started posting but I have come to understand it now. I know when it comes to the women on this bord who have had the OC(myself, tigger, MoF, fullhouse, etc) we all love that child as much as the children born of our marriages. Even though that child was not conceived under the right circumstances I think one must have the experience of carrying and giving birth to a child to understand it. I think maybe CM is having a hard time seeing that not all men feel that love towards their OC although some do. Even if the man feels that same love towards the OC it does not automatically mean that his wife must feel it, try to understand it, or even want that child in her life. One point I must make though is that in my opinion and in my situation the love I feel for my daughter has nothing to do with who she was conceived with, how or why. I do not think of xOM every time I look at her just as I do not think of my H every time I look at my sons. They are individuals and they are my children. And although my H professes to love our D as much as our sons (who couldn't, she's so damn cute!! She turns 1 on Friday.) I would certainly understand it if he didn't. It wouldn't make me happy, but I'd understand. I am not so sure that it is even the OC that is the biggest issue with UW. I think it is her H's inability to work on their marriage. I know that if I hadn't tried my hardest to make ammends with my H that he wouldn't have stuck around. It wouldn't have been because of the "OC" it would have been because of me.

Dear UW,<p>I too am sorry for the searing pain you are going through. Mr. J and I had a rough recovery also. It took him a long time to detach from exOW. The physical part of the affair was over but he still felt like he had to take care of her emotionally. It made me raging, screaming furious to see those cell phone bills each month. Every month I circled his calls to her and those that looked like her calls to him and brought them to our marriage counselor. I repeated again and again that this was not acceptable and was never going to be acceptable. I told him it was a divorcable offense. I would not be in an emotional triangle even if the physical affair had ended. I painted my boundaries with a broad stroke. I wish I had had one of those truly repentent spouses who just suddenly turned around and began living right, but alas...<p>I think a couple of recent posters have gotten it right. The issue isn't the OC, it is your H's blatant disregard for your needs. It is his behavior and lack of concern for your feelings that is the issue. I don't blame you one bit for how you are feeling.<p>So, my advice? Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. It may be the wakeup call that your H needs. If not, simply the physical separation and no contact will prevent you from having to roll around in the filth he has created. You will not see him, you will not talk to him, all contact must go through a third party. You will not know what he is doing. Do not ask people who know him what he is doing. He will be no concern of yours. Get a lawyer involved, file a legal separataion but not a divorce yet. Protect yourself financially. Get a child support order in place for your children. Move along with your life as if divorced, except no dating on your part. It would still be a violation of your marriage vows until your divorce is final. <p>Use this time to fix you, to figure out your part in the marriage and to repair the hideous and infected schrapnal wounds he has inflicted on your psyche. Live for yourself and your children. Get some counseling. If you are faithful, reconnect with your church or synagogue or mosque. Protect yourself from further harm by getting away from this man who cares not how much he hurts you.<p>No, all you defenders of children everywhere, I am not calling the OC "filth" but betrayers do make filth out of their marriage. They turn holy ground into a pig sty. If the WS is not willing to move out of the filth he or she has created then the BS has no obligation to continue to live in unhealthy circumstances. You move out of the filth by making joint decisions, treating each other with care, protecting each other from your angry outbursts: in short by applying Harely principles to your marriage. Would any of you defenders of children everyhwere consent to letting your children live in filth?<p>UW, don't live in the pig sty he has created any longer. You deserve a better life. Plan A is not about accepting hideous behavior that borders on abusive. Do not allow him back in to your life unless and until he can prove that he has changed.<p>In love and concern,
MJ

mj,
I am probably one of those defenders of children.. But I do understand UW's NEED to have her husband love and respect her. So I agree with you. She deserves better. I believe plan b works. Because I have used it before and didnt even know it. <p> wib.
I too never look at my beautiful daughter and see OM, I just see my child as I do my other children. I do what I do for her NEVER for OM.
MY husband loves her dearly although I am sure once in a while he may look at her and see OM. But it doesnt change his love for her. SHE is DADDYS little girl.
Sperm doesnt exactly make a father. Takes so much more that that. We have a child that we adopted and I feel no different to her than I do the other children. She is now a part of us as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tigger4jdt:
[QB] <p>
Tigger,
No toes stepped on here. I'm glad that you shared with me because you and MOMof5 are where I feel I want to be. I do want to rebuild my marriage and I've considered so much of the advice I've been given, even those with words that hurt me. I have come to understand that rebuilding on lies is no good. I am very afraid of all the hurt I will cause my H. I can't even put that fear into words. I have been away from om for 2 months now and for the 1st time since I've known him, I feel good about putting myself and my H before him. Before, I always put his needs first and always protected him. I have come to see what you mean about the pain being different for husband and wife of ws with oc. But it is for all, pain that runs so deep I am afraid to do that to him. I admit that I'm tempted to not tell him. But the side of me that feels reborn after being away from OM, is urging me to be honest and come clean and pray he will forgive me.

UW,<p>I respect your feelings and opinions; you are right, I don't know how it would feel to be in your situation. I never once suggested that I do but I have said that I do feel I can lend some insight about the otherside of matters. The side that you are so hurt by. If I have caused you more hurt, I am sorry. It is the side you can't really grasp because it is not your experience just as the conecpts of the bs that I fail to understand, so too, a facet of your ws that you fail to see. You have helped me to see better how my A impacts not only my H but also OM family, even if they never find out. In turn, I hope I helped you understand in some way. <p>I have never offered anyone excuses about my A. I didn't intent to hurt anyone but I also didn't know what the A would do to me or om emotionally. I wouldn't have believed it. If I had come to this site first and learned about the BS, then I would say my lack of understanding would be foolish. But I was naive or had my head buried in the clouds. If spouses never are told of A, the A still hurts the M. I failed to understand that until I lived the A and the emotional rollercoaster ride it took me on. I know now and agree with you UM, but back then, I did not.
I don't know about everyone else involved in A's. But in my case, the intention to get it on with OP as you say, wasn't there at first. It was an emotional relationship. My needs, looking back weren't sexual, I was emotionally hungry. It remained that for many months. The physical affair began long after feelings of love were established. And youre are so right, the heartache is guaranteed to follow. Confusion and despair also followed us. How now do we get out and undo this? Question often asked but we did nothing. We tried to get out once or twice, but they were feable attempts. Truth was, we had to be destroyed emotionally by the A before we'd end it. Does that sounds like 2 rational, logical, intellegent adults to you UW? To anyone reading this?
Hell no. But we are both all those things in our professional lives. Its how others perceive us in and out of work. But we weren't fit to make personal decisions. We were downright incompetent. That is what our A did to me, to us both. I imagine it happens to many others too. <p>I am sorry that I didn't understand that you really are all done with your M. I took off my rose colored glasses today and re-read your post 3x before I responded. Also, of all of the compromises you have made, I didn't realize. I'm sure none of it was easy to do or live with. I just thought you may want to know that I too thought I had no more love for my H when my A began. But then he changed and things got better between us. And now, we have a chance again. That was what I was wanted you to think about. But you know better than I what your circumstances are. I wish you well UW and I hope truly that you do not give away your personal power to your H and his OW by letting this situation take over your mind and life. I know what that can do to a person and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I may not have the best communcation tact, but I don't intend to be harsh or calluous.
Something I read recently helped me and maybe it will help you too. ...Happiness is not conditional of the hand we're dealt in life. It is an attitude. Our choice....
I first read it and thought, yeah, right. But I have found it to be true as I faked being happy these last months on the outside until I began to feel it inside too.

MJ,<p>I am a big defender of children and still, I do agree with you.

CMiranda, You have not offended me. And to all, thanks for your opinions. I agree plan B is in order. I have an appt. with the Harley's the end of the week, and then will file for separation ASAP. I want to protect my kids financially and do what I need to do.<p>Yes, I am most upset with my H at his lies, his betrayal, his doing whatever he wants without our joint decisions about anything.But I am upset about the OC. I have no intention of incorporating the child into our life, and my H seems to think with time, I will change. I have been perfectly clear with him on this point, from the outset, and have no hidden agendas with that.The child is also a different race than us, and looks like the mother. Looking at the child always reminds me of the OW-and I no more want reminders of my h with her than I already have.
The child does pain me, for many many reasons.I know the child had no say as to conception, but the child's existence pains me. ANd humiliates me and my family. I am not going to change my mind. My H refuses to ignore child, and one therapist we saw said since he had to do it,a nd I will not accept that, perhaps divorce is the best option. H didn't like that-but is that not the choice when he refuses to even bend to me regarding this?<p>I have had it. I am sleeping in a separate bedroom and barely talking to H. the hard part will be telling our kids and changing their lives. I will hate that. My kids like their home with us, but I know my children know there is something wrong with daddy and mommy, and I don't want them to think this is what a marriage should look like.<p>I resent the OW daily for her choices and decisions which have radically altered our life. And I resent her manipulation of my H, preying on his sense of responsiblilty telling him how innocent their child is. So are mine, and neither one seem concerned about that.<p>I am very tired with all of this, ready to move on.