Good Idea.<p>How old is your daughter now? How is she with your other kids? Is she well adjusted? <p>My heart broke reading about the 3 year old she once was. God Bless you Mom, your heart sure is big.

she is 8, the others are teens
she is a plesant child now, very loving and needy, and very stubborn.
But she has made so many changes since she was three, she is smart and fun and getting to be very good with the baby although there were some jelousy feelings at first.
She can now control her behavior and has learned how to ask communicate what is wrong, she now comes to us for consoling her instead of running to a corner and screaming for 5 hours, when she is mad, she comes back latter and says i am sorry.
so I think we have come far and I think we have further to go,

There is always room for improvement in us all

Momof5,<p>I feel very frustrated right now. I thought I'd ask your opionion away from Babstr's thread about CS. I try and put myself in the BS shoes but the whole idea that it's the womans sole responsibiltiy for a child born of an affair makes blood boil. I know that you have been on both sides, ws and bs. How do you see this? I know I am not a BS but what the hell could a person be thinking if they feel that their WS is not responsible for a child that they created?
It is disqusting to me that people can honestly believe that these men should walk away free of the consequences of their very voluntary affairs. If the woman can't make ends meet on here own, what, the state should use tax dollars to support a child when the biological father is still living, breathing, and working?! My God, it makes me madder than hell and seems that some of the BS of the WS are enabling their WS right into another A never mind treating them like a child. I'm sorry but I had to vent to someone who won't bite my head off for not agreeing with their opinion. <p>CM

cm
they know there husband did wrong just like my husband knows I did wrong.. he had no choices either, he could stay and love that baby or he cold leave and move on. and in this case he is the bs.
They are not attacking you.. they are attacking the situation that has made there life unbearable and sometimes they include every situation as if it is the same. It is not that cut and dried and could never be.. ever situation is different. I belive any woman who finds her self in this postition is not keeping the child because she wants to cause pain to others. She is keeping this child because she has a great need to love that child and feel responsible. Because she was an equal participant.
You dont no this having never been a betrayed wife, But I have done this many times and every time I blamed her for everything.. I mean everything. It wasnt sure they all new i was married and didnt care, but you know what he didnt either, he gave no reguard to the fact that I was sitting at home alone with my babies, praying he hadnt been hurt or wasnt in an accident.. when all the while he was in some womans house married or not , pleasuring him self with out reguard to his family and for that I blame him. as I am sure he now blames me.
WE are not having to deal with another womans child so we cant really say how we would feel.
My husband doesnt like the fact theat this man and I will have a connection to this man for ever, because we have a child together.. these women are trying to prevent the rest of their lives from ending up ruined and holding on to what they have and this is an intrusion, like it or not.
Dont take it personally, you cant change there thoughts or feelings. It isnt about you, we are just all outspoken women who have beliefs based on what we know.. what has happened to us.
we really are all on the same boat, we want to stay married somehow someway despite all that we have been through.

CM,<p>I think you are missing an important part of this: The third party, the government. If you go back to the thread you are referring to, what sets these ladies teeth on edge is that system deems the OC more important than the children of these ladies families. THe fact that there are other children is often not factored into the equation or it is the first out, first in line attitude without regard to the existing other children.<p>I think it also bothers many and it would me too that any advancement the family makes from now on, including pay raises by the W, the OW and OC benefit. You are seeing rage at the OW not the OC and the rage at the OW is based on how the system treats all concerned. The W of the men that conceived these children is completely ignored.<p>THat makes them angry, it makes me angry, and I suspect if you think about it, it would make you angry. It is the heartlessness of the system and the failure to take into account the existing family that is bothering them, not the OC or even that there is CS to pay. <p>Word of warning:: Don't even get close to Catnip on this subject. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] When you hear what the system did to her and her husband financially, it will make your hair curl. The courts have amazing power and this power is often capriciously used.<p>That is primarily what the venting is about. You have not choosen to make your OM accountable for the child, but rather your H. So this portion of accountability has been put on hold.<p>Momof5 is right, it is about perspective, but actually the venting isn't about the WS NOT supporting the OC. It is about the manner in which the system works and how it is applied.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>cm
they know there husband did wrong just like my husband knows I did wrong.. he had no choices either, he could stay and love that baby or he cold leave and move on. and in this case he is the bs.
They are not attacking you.. they are attacking the situation that has made there life unbearable and sometimes they include every situation as if it is the same. It is not that cut and dried and could never be.. ever situation is different. I belive any woman who finds her self in this postition is not keeping the child because she wants to cause pain to others. She is keeping this child because she has a great need to love that child and feel responsible. Because she was an equal participant.
You dont no this having never been a betrayed wife, But I have done this many times and every time I blamed her for everything.. I mean everything. It wasnt sure they all new i was married and didnt care, but you know what he didnt either, he gave no reguard to the fact that I was sitting at home alone with my babies, praying he hadnt been hurt or wasnt in an accident.. when all the while he was in some womans house married or not , pleasuring him self with out reguard to his family and for that I blame him. as I am sure he now blames me.
WE are not having to deal with another womans child so we cant really say how we would feel.
My husband doesnt like the fact theat this man and I will have a connection to this man for ever, because we have a child together.. these women are trying to prevent the rest of their lives from ending up ruined and holding on to what they have and this is an intrusion, like it or not.
Dont take it personally, you cant change there thoughts or feelings. It isnt about you, we are just all outspoken women who have beliefs based on what we know.. what has happened to us.
we really are all on the same boat, we want to stay married somehow someway despite all that we have been through.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are right and I appreciate hearing your perspective from the bs side of things. I know you can't carry on in a M when you harbor such bad thoughts toward spouse and they have to go someplace. I can accept that as OW but as WS I can't. I was so much a part of the A, OM never played on my emotions or forced me to stay. It just seems so misplaced to think OP is that bad but I understand how it has to be that way.
I know it's not personal but it feels that way to me and I'm sure it does to them that is why we feel our buttons being manipulated.
I am a black and white person most of the time, I have a hard time seeing the gray matter and so when someone says that us women got pregnant by our own choice makes me furious because I know I wasn't alone in my relationship regardless of BC & whether or not it failed. Adults know how babies are made even men and women in a "fog".
OM is only let out of picture because I let him be for my own selfish reasons. He has no inherent right in my eyes because he is "only" a man. Uggh, thanks for letting me vent.

JL,
As usual, thanks for your kind input and very wise warning.
I do see the whole CS system as being unfair. I understand alittle about how it has gotten that way as it has been explained to me but I don't agree with it's implementation.
It shouldn't be so biased and complicated. All children of the one parent should be considered equally and BS income should not be taken into consideration and neither should the OC custodial other parent. I know they are very frustrated having to yet again suffer the consequences of the A.
What sent me off was not the CS or OC issues, but the view that us OW get pregnant on our own and we choose to all by ourselves, considering there are somewhere around 500 (yup, 500) methods of effective Birth Control. Men have BC choices. They are all fallable...but that isn't even the point.
I just see the conception of a child as a joint effort regardless of intent. I was insulted by having the blame put on women. I know the focus was soppose to be on CS but the way OW are blamed for A is one thing and I can understand why and how but for a pregnancy? I just can't wrap my brain around that...

I think the general misconception is I live in a pollyanna world and have blinders on, But WE are way past discovery and childbirth and the A.
WE have all ready fought and screamed and argued and cried untill we are all cried out... so we move forward. thats all.
when you tell your husband he will have a lot of the same feelings these women have.. so be prepared, it will not go smooth at first. <p>Your husband has an advantage you gave birth to the baby and he loves your son and considers him yours, Howver I hope you have considered this before fathers day.. I dont want to scare you, but it would hurt tremendously to know you pretended on fathersday and each little thing like that will hurt him more and he will remember those. my husband met some woman off the internet and on valantines day a few years ago he said he was going fishing, turns out he was in the same town in a hotel with another woman. <p> to this day I think valentines day stinks and dont even recognize it except for my children.
just something to consider.
so you can see why these women are angry.. it eally isnt about you and I am sure they give or have given there husbands heck for what they have done or do.
You are no different than thier husbands.. nor am I, we all did the same thing, but you see they love thier husbands and they dont know you so it feels good to vent.
I can tell you ever time a woman took my husband I blamed them with all my heart and still do,
I think xom's wife should blame me, I contiued for years with her spouse and in time had no reguard for her whats so ever, neither did he, but that is for them to deal with not me.
was he at fault yes very much so... he new I was seperated and new what was going on in my life before he ever introfduced him self to me, he new how to be a shoulder to cry on and did it well. but no more than I was, because I new we were in deep and year after year I stayed.

CM,<p>Well, I don't know if what I have to say is going to help, but have felt the need to express from my POV. In all your posts, you have put the blame that the BS are putting on their xOW on yourself. YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!!!! Why?!?!?! Because their situation has nothing to do with you! I have NEVER felt as if they were putting the blame on me! Yes, xOM doesn't know of Abbi, but I still put myself into the situation I now find myself! <p>Babstr's thread got WAY off subject! She was not blaming xOW or fighting with her over CS! She was concerned that the CS office had sent this letter, after she was under the understanding of it not being possible till 2003! She has literally put her life on hold for this xOW and the OC, and as you know, having just had a child yourself, those hormones can be he!! the whole pregnancy, let alone the last few months!<p>I am not trying to point fingers here, and you know that I truly want to help you in your situation, but you cannot come here, to a place that was created specifically for the BS of WS who have produced a child from their A, and expect to not have the OW be painted in a perfect light! I think that maybe you still are holding on to your xOM, and that's why you are feeling the sting of these women here. You may have some underlining guilt that causes these knee jerk reactions in you, and you post with that pain you are feeling! Maybe that's why I have never felt these women were "attacking" me when they spoke of their xOW! Since D-day, I can say that I have absolutely NO feelings what-so-ever about xOM! <p>Maybe, when you feel as if you are being attacked, you should take a day off from the board, really think about what these BS are being put through, really read everything they have said in their posts, before you respond! When you react when you are angry/hurt, it comes out as attacking everyone else on this forum who are in some very painful situations themselves. Too many of the BS here have been told by the xOW that they planned to get pregnant to make WS leave the M! I have a very strong feeling that's what xOM was trying to do with me, but in my stupidity, didn't stop it myself! But, that was almost 2 yrs ago, and I am now past that, and repairing the damage I have done, and well down the long road of recovery with Sailorman! It's easier for us than most here, as we don't have that 3rd party interferance that most others here do have. <p>I still say, pray, hope that you tell your H. And that it happens, from your mouth to his ears, before he suspects something is up! As you've been told many times before, the longer you wait, the bigger the betrayal it will be to your H! If you think that it can be kept a secret, look at what Usedlongago is going through! He found out AFTER the son he thought was his was grown and out of the house with a wife of his own! Look at the pain he and his family are now going through!<p>Ok, I have gone on and on, but I do hope you read this and can get something out of it! Please, don't take what the BS here have/are/will be saying about the xOW in their situations as a direct attack on you or your situation! Many of those you have "counter attacked" have offered you some of the best advice you've gotten on these boards! <p>Tigger

Thanks for your POV. I respect it and some I can agree to and some not. I do tend to take some of what the BS say persoanlly as a fws and ow. I can even understand alot of it and I don't think the BS is in any way unjustified. But when I don't share their view, they take persoanl shots at me, my situation, which I shared here because I do want to fix my M. They use my history againist me and I've been called names and told to get the *uck off this site. Now, if I do that, I'm some threatening OW in violatin of the rules. They do it and it's okay. Well, not okay.
The part that I could not fathom on Babstr's thread was people saying how women are solely responsible for conception and pregnancy. I still can't believe women can say that about other women. Men, well, yes, I can see it but other women? I have heard some BS say that they were told bu OW that she got pregnant on purpose and that is outrageous and I'm sure they have every right to be pissed. But when they say things like if we all used BC none of this would happen, it makes my skin crawl because my bc failed. So now what? I do take some of their words personally and it sure seems that they take mine the same way.
I realize people here are venting but I wish we all were allowed to be respected for our views. In my case, and in some other WS/OW/OM who post here, when we say something that hits a button with BS, they take and apply it to their own situation and we're accused of pouring salt in wounds.
We all do have wounded spirits here; BS are not alone in their pain. <p>We have a MC that we both like, but we're in early stages so I'm continuing to take it slow with my H. I do have some attachment issues with OM that i'm not over yet but it's getting better. I'm sure you are right about that. I appreciate your advice and encouragement.<p>The thing is Tigger, when people get involved in intimate relationships, all logic goes out the window. It seems to be a consistent factor for us all, whether ws,bs, or op. Married or not. We all do things and say things out of hurt or desperation or love. <p>My ex-om always told me that there were 2 of us in the relationship. We were there becasue we wanted to be. I never twisted his arm nor he mine. I don't want to make excuses for my actions and I sure as heck won't let anyone excuse a perfectly capable & intelligent man. I know how he persued me as much or more than I did him. It makes this OW blame game hard to take.

CM,<p>You are very right about many things you just said. The largest is that this isn't "logical".<p>Actually, there is a logic to many of the things that happen, but to appreciate this logic one would have to know the details of individuals thoughts and not even the spouses know that. So, the result is all of this appears to be so illogical.<p>I think one of Harley's major contributions is that he has provided sort of a cause and effect scenario. Sort of a logic if you will. It applies in a general sense to all, but the details do vary. He never claimed that ALL people would fall within his logic.<p>I think you need to realize that the BS are not responding logically either. How could they? They knew even less that the WS and OP about the events so if the events seems somewhat illogical to the WS and OP, they seem just to be mad to the BS. Hence they come to vent, to work out the emotions, so that they can get down to bedrock, and then apply "logic" to their situation.<p>When you tell your H you will get to see the process first hand. He will be a complete basket case emotionally, then he will be in pain probably followed by anger, very likely he will withdraw from you for awhile so that he can get down to the bedrock of the situation (does he love you enough to stay). Once he does that, he will start to question, have many doubts, but he will start to apply a logic to the situation and gradually he will recover. <p>Will the marriage recover?? Most often it can, if you can help supply the information for him to build a logical system that says that he should stay.<p>Logic is the key, but it is an individual logic, not a universal one that is at play here. I have no doubts that you consciously made decisions that allowed your affair to happen and continue as it did. Each decision based on a logic within you based on what you felt about your H, your marriage, your vows, your OM, his marriage, his vows, the potential of a future with him. <p>Interestingly, each decision was correct within your logic. There is no disputing that. People don't consciously make wrong decisions. Although, they may be aware that the logic they are using is leading them away from what they know is right.<p>Of course this is were the term "the fog" comes from. It isn't because what the WS feels is false, the attraction, the love is real. What is in "the fog" is the logic being used to arrive at this situation. You see the internal logic doesn't have to match the realities of the world, but if it doesn't dire consequences often occur. I think you are aware of that.<p>So, when you read the BS's posts understand this, their logic and yours simply don't match. But, as they heal, and you take the necessary steps to repair what you have done with and to your H, you will see the LOGIC of both situations begin to converge. <p>A WS trying to rebuild a marriage for all the world sounds like a BS trying to rebuild a marriage. That is why when someone comes here wanting to rebuild, they are generally treated pretty much the same. The goal here is to get their logic to match what is required to rebuild no matter how they came to that stage.<p>So calm down abit. Let it flow, everyone here is trying to get stablized and reorder the logic of what is going on around them.<p>God Bless,<p>JL