CMiranda,
<<<he still got her pregnant>>><p>As a woman I find that statement very insulting. At this time a woman has over 500 choices of birth control to keep herself from becoming pregnant. A man has 3.
To imply that a man "GOT" a woman pregnant insinuates that all woman are so stupid that they do not know their choices of birth control or do not know how to use them correctly. If this is my body then it is MY responsibility what happens to it. Blaming the condition of pregnancy on a man is prehistoric. If I become pregnant it is no ones responsiblity but mine. To say other wise is simply denial.
I'm so tired of hearing ow spew about what they are intitled to I could scream [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>jtigger

JT
I am sure cmirnada did not mean it quite that way, yes it is the other womans responsibility, although i think 500 hundred ways might be streching it a bit. we can debate this mess till the end of time and it will get us know where, we are all adults men and women alike, we all know where babies come from. end of story

Mom of Five,
No, If you count all the different type of pills, diaphrams, IUDs, jellys, creams etc... I think you will find 500 is modest.
Yes we can argue this till the cows come home but think of it like this.
If I get in my car tomorrow and choose not to put my seat belt on and someone rams into the side of my car and my head goes through the wind shield.
Is it their fault they hit me? Yes. Is it their fault I was foolish and didn't put my seat belt on so my head went throught he windshield ? NO.
Had I been responsible enough to put my seat belt on my head would not be stuck in that wind shield. And I have no one to blame but myself.<p>jtigger

jtigger, I like the way you think. Very good points.

CM,<p>You need to read my posts carefully. In regards to having to still pay the price, in fact I think I explained this before. If I leave I still have the consequences because she will get her amount, and I will get the left overs. I will get way less than she does, and how is that fair. <p>As far as him getting her pregnant, I don't think I need to add anything JTigger addressed that. I didn't get pregnant before I wanted to, no one got me pregnant I chose when my body was going to carry a child. And I still feel, if it is your body that will be carrying the child, and making the decisions for the child, than you better make sure your pregnant when you want to. No man can just decide he wants to get a woman pregnant, but a woman can always decide if she will or will not get pregnant. This is not the ice age, women can get on the pill. <p>If you have to burdened with going through pregnancy, labor, and delivery. And then you have the call in what happens to that child. Than get on the pill when you don't want a child, and get off when you do. Your right everyone knows how to get pregnant. That is why my H told her he would take her to the clinic to get the after morning pill, and she said she was on the pill and there wouldn't be any problems. After all she had a two year old already she knew how her body worked. Just like we all do. <p>babstr.

babystr,,,,, sorry you have been faced with this delema. please take care of yourself and your c's. as you may know fh was yje ws in my case and at 45 with six c's i think she actually forgot ho wc's are made sometimes. it still amazes me that this situation is in my life. i know you will not like to here this side of the story but after hereing the stories here about how unfair the cs courts are i am looking forward to them sticking it up the om's backside. i hope that they get him good and he has a firm grip on his ankles when they give it to him. i fully intend to get a fauxpa divorce just to make sure my income is in no way considered when the courts look at his income vs fh's. i am sorry if this offends any here but i still have 4 young kids that i feel i ned to protect to. i wish i had some advice for you but all the sound advice of others semms to have passed your time frame bye.

JT
you may be right about some of that, I think Babstr!(sp!) situation is so very different from mine and cmirandas, the reason we feel so strongly is because of the type of A we had and the fact that it lasted so long.
we all have choices, mine told me he had a vasectomy years ago and i believed him, we were only with each other for a long time, so i didnt use protection and he didnt want to. I trusted him. He knew i could get pregnant and said not to worry, so I didnt foolish!? definately , but Here I am taking responsibility for what I did and loving every monute of it. He decided a year down the road he was missing out and now he is doing the same. <p> Her husband had a one night stand, and should have protected him self from many things, besides pregnancy. I understand her anger at it, how do you fall in love with a child produced from a one night stand, FOR the mother thats easy for the father, he didnt even know this woman, I can see why that would cause stress,
The difference between night and day, as I am sure all would agree.
Not the childs fault, cant hate a baby, but certainly I would find it easy to hate the woman, However I would find it pretty easy to ask my husband why he was such an idiot as well.
My husband has asked me why I was an idiot, haha But he wouldnt trade thaT baby girl for anything. <p>POPs<p>My husband felt the same as you about child support, once they mentioned they wanted to be involved in her life, he wanted to stick it to them, however, while certainly if he is going to parent my daughter he has a duty as do I to support her and make sure her needs are met.
But I hope if and when the time comes, you and fh will learn to at least tolerate them and treat this man, at least as well as you would a stranger.. not for your wife, but for your child. She needs to have a stable loving environment all around, and not see all the anger and turmoil. as hard as it is.
I am hoping for your sake he will walk away and help with support, but that doesnt always happen.
You dont have to have birthday parties, like we do, but that isnt for us, it is for my daughter, we dont have set visitation, because this way I get my daughter every holiday and she doesnt have to leave me six weeks in the summer, WE all agree this is best. I hope it turns out well for you and fh and of course your child.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I must say first that I think it's right that your H should be financially responsible, not the tax payers<p>*** Both the taxpayers and the innocent family of origin would be off the hook if the child were given up for adoption to a loving, two parent household <p>Maybe that is why there have to be wage garnishments, court hearings, and alot of suffering for everyone all over again.<p>*** Garnishments should only be incorporated if the obligator refuses to pay at all. It should not be used to extort enormous, unjust and illegal amounts from the obligator when the corrupt court systems refuse to acknowledge and consider the tax returns and financial statements from the obligator and refuses to consider the innocent family and children of origin first and foremost. <p>I guess we have a choice to live with it or not to.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The only person who has a choice is the OW who makes all the initial decisions. None of the innocent betrayeds can make any of their decisions until the OW has played Grand Dame and Queen and made the "Big Decision" that impacts EVERYONE FOREVER.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by twiisty:
<strong>
but Bubba, they told Mr."T" was my responsibility...whereas they were supposed to recognize BOTH our children of the marriage, they only recognized ONE...and being that OC is TWO WEEKS older than Mini-me (our first child together) she gets precedent...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Aaaaarrrrrggggh! Twiisty! THIS is what I mean! The imbalance! The injustice! The total disregard for the family, the children, the marriage! I can't stand it. I really, really can't. It is truly an evil and corrupt system that ignores the family of origin yet has this ludicrous "reward" system in place for any OW who just gets an itch to have a child, knowing the government will force income shares out of the chump's pocket.<p>Aaaacck. Furball.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by babstr:
<strong>I am told how much children cost, and thus the justification for the high amount of child support. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>It doesn't cost that juch to raise a child. <p>Shelter is something the OW would need anyway, whether she has a child or not, so shelter is the OW responsibility.<p>Day care is something the OW should absorb if she is the one who decided to keep the child. Whether she works or not is her decision and her call. If she cannot afford to be a stay at home mom and raise her child, then perhaps she shouldn't keep the child. I mean, why keep a child if some stranger from day care is going to raise it?<p>You, Babstr, are an educated research scientist, for God's sake, and could make vats of money. But, you did not have children so some stranger could raise them for you...you should be able to stay home with your kids and not be penalized for doing so.<p>I raised three kids on a couple hundred a week for clothes and food and school stuff and some extras. When my kids were all 11, they all got paper routes and worked for their fun money. None of them wanted for anything. The ridiculous amounts of money these OW's are awarded are ridiculous and over the top. A hundred or two a week for one kid is more than enough. Especially when no one else had any say as to whether or not the child would be up for adoption...or not. Only one person got to make that decision, and therefore, that person is the one who should absorb the lion's share fo the obligation.<p>Catnip =^^=

Catnip,<p>thanks. You are right about me working. The deal was I could stay home when I had children. The deal wasn't you will have to give that up and go back to work if your husband screws up. When I quit my job I didn't know about this siutation of I am sure I would have reconsidered giving up my salary, even though I wouldn't have wanted to do that. I found out way after I had left. <p>Mom of 5,<p>Yes, my H got read the riot act after I found out about the one night stand. He was passed out, she did "wake him up" in the van he was in, she went looking for him. So no offense, but I don't know too many men who when they are totally drunk, who have their "instrument" being rubbed to wake them up that are thinking too clearly at the time. I laid into him for months, and I still held my breath this time when I got all of my tests run for my pregnancy. Those creepy STDS can stay hiddin forever. But like many women there wasn't much I could do. I got pregnant three months after the incident, and I told him over and over what would have happened if not only there was an oc, but I would have caught something and passed it on to our child. <p>Just to add another two cents. My H still is having great difficulty getting through this. the anger that he carries with him towards himself and towards the ow is very deep. It flares up at times in our relationship and things have been rocky for the four days since we got the letter. He doesn't know how to let go of the anger and the shame. I don't want him to forget, but he needs to let it go. And he can't. At times I am trying to get him to understand, that he will only heal when he does that. This incident happened over 4 1/2 years ago. I know he keeps it buried, but when these things come up it brings it back. It makes it hard to heal when you are constantly reminded of it, and having someone digging into your life again.<p>babstr.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]
I do recieve child support, but it is not what the state says, we just talked and i decided what i would need, and they do other stuff when they can or want to. I never ask, I know if I go to court, I could get about several hundred more. But what would be the point, I dont need it,and my daughter spends a lot of time with them, so They will need to provide for her when she is there, besides I know if i needed anything, I would just pick up the phone and tell him, I need this and by that afternoon it would be there. So I dont worry about it.
QB]<hr></blockquote><p>THIS is the way it should be done...and could be done, if we were allowed to work out the amounts ourselves without the interference form the courts. The only time the courts should become involved is when the obligator refuses to offer financial assistance. And then, the courts have a duty to take only the amount prescribed by law and the state's guidelines.<p>We pay $1,350.00 per month for ONE child. If my husband doesn't work overtime, he only takes home $400 per week, just slightly more than OW gets.<p>And the Nassau County Family Court of NY refuses to acknowledge or consider our earnings, tax returns, financial repports done by legitimate CPA's and made their support decision based on arbitrary figures they just pulled out of thin air, at OW's aggressive insistance that we have lots of money and requested orignally $3000.00 per month, which was originally granted, based on nothing, of which $21,000 of "arrears" that we really fo not owe, is recorded against us, which will take any and all of our tax refunds for eternity.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong><p>As a woman I find that statement very insulting. At this time a woman has over 500 choices of birth control to keep herself from becoming pregnant. A man has 3.
To imply that a man "GOT" a woman pregnant insinuates that all woman are so stupid that they do not know their choices of birth control or do not know how to use them correctly. If this is my body then it is MY responsibility what happens to it. Blaming the condition of pregnancy on a man is prehistoric. If I become pregnant it is no ones responsiblity but mine. To say other wise is simply denial.
I'm so tired of hearing ow spew about what they are intitled to I could scream [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>jtigger</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Jtigger<p>You are singing my song. I said practically the same thing to OW in a letter two years ago that inspired her to slap me with a phony restraining order whereas she lied and said I threatened to take her spawn away from her (I'd rather eat ground glass and wash it down with gasoline)<p>I guess the TRUTH hurt.<p>Catnip =^^=

JTigger,<p>I do not agree, it takes 2 people to have intercourse and no birth control is 100 %. I became pregnant and we were using BC. I own my 1/2 of the responsibility in that but I wasn't alone for the almost 7 years with my OM. He was right there and his participation makes up the other 50%. That is how I see it.
Like you, I am also tired. I'm tired of BS whining that OP wants something from their WS (as if the WS is some innocent victim..?) after that man had sex with this woman and the end result was a child. It may hurt paying support and all of the rest that goes along with affairs, I know it does. I don't think women are stupid and did not intend to say that in my remark that he got her pregnant. She didn't do it alone and with that fact, it doesn't mean much to me whether 2 people had a 5 minute affair or years and years. I guess I'm on the side of the courts. Too many adults when confronted with their responsibilites shun them onto someone else because it's convenient. Alot of WS are guilty of that. I feel sorry for the BS who must live with lousy consequences of the WS affairs, I honestly do. Nothing is fair about affairs. We all loose in the end.

Well, I am so worked up right now and so completely outraged, I can hardly contain myself. This topic is like tossing a cat into a swimming pool.<p>My accountant is almost finsihed with my taxes for 2000 and 2001 and as soon as I have them in hand and notarized, I am going on a major crusade to have the arrears and monthly payments adjusted retroactively and if it doesn't work, if they won't comply, I am going to sue the State of NY. Since I was unable to sue the OW for Personal Injury because of running out of time and not having the money for an attorney, (statute of limitations) I'm just going to fill out the paperwork on own and represent us myself. I have absolutely nothing else to loose.<p>Catnip =^^=

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>Mom of Five,
No, If you count all the different type of pills, diaphrams, IUDs, jellys, creams etc... I think you will find 500 is modest.
Yes we can argue this till the cows come home but think of it like this.
If I get in my car tomorrow and choose not to put my seat belt on and someone rams into the side of my car and my head goes through the wind shield.
Is it their fault they hit me? Yes. Is it their fault I was foolish and didn't put my seat belt on so my head went throught he windshield ? NO.
Had I been responsible enough to put my seat belt on my head would not be stuck in that wind shield. And I have no one to blame but myself.<p>jtigger</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tigger,
I guess you don't know anyone who used birth control and STILL became pregnant. It happens.
Regardless, birth control or no birth control, if a man, any man, married, or not, has sex with a woman and she becomes pregnant, how is it that you can justify his lack of responsibility?
I dont hear you saying well the man had 2 choices for BC, a condom or abstinence. It is not the womans responsibility alone to protect from pregnancy. Sorry, these men are not idiots, I refuse to treat them like blubbering victims of some woman. They knew exactly what they were doing and the risks they were taking.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by babstr:
<strong>CM,<p>You need to read my posts carefully. In regards to having to still pay the price, in fact I think I explained this before. If I leave I still have the consequences because she will get her amount, and I will get the left overs. I will get way less than she does, and how is that fair. <p>As far as him getting her pregnant, I don't think I need to add anything JTigger addressed that. I didn't get pregnant before I wanted to, no one got me pregnant I chose when my body was going to carry a child. And I still feel, if it is your body that will be carrying the child, and making the decisions for the child, than you better make sure your pregnant when you want to. No man can just decide he wants to get a woman pregnant, but a woman can always decide if she will or will not get pregnant. This is not the ice age, women can get on the pill. <p>If you have to burdened with going through pregnancy, labor, and delivery. And then you have the call in what happens to that child. Than get on the pill when you don't want a child, and get off when you do. Your right everyone knows how to get pregnant. That is why my H told her he would take her to the clinic to get the after morning pill, and she said she was on the pill and there wouldn't be any problems. After all she had a two year old already she knew how her body worked. Just like we all do. <p>babstr.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Babs,<p>My response about women choosing when and if she gets pregnant is summed up to Tigger. It sounds like you are in denial of your H participation. He had a choice and he took a risk that could result in pregancy. If he didn't know her, what about safe sex? The pill doesn't protect against STD's.
Not all women can take the pill by the way. Are there any doctors or PA's here?!
We are adults and we know how babies are made. Lets not put the burden and responsibility on women, please. That is discrimination. She wasn't alone, period.

catnip
we may disagree on a lot of things but you always make me smile. <p>I think you are paying un ungodly amount of support and would be shocked at such a thing, we could get as much, and once in a while husband would like to just to stick it to him, but it passes,
My daughter has to spend time with them and I want her to have nice things as well when she is with them, including furnishings for her room and taking her places and such, they have to have money to do that, and my husband makes more any way. But I do believe he has a responsibility to help with things as does he. The money we get, xOM does not even notice and is happy with it, because it keeps peace at home,HIS HOME
How ever when i want to make a major purchase for daughter I tell them and they go halves with me, we also share all pictures, if i take snap shots of her i give them copies and they do the same, we try to keep it all pretty equal. the only thing not equal at the moment is visitation, I decide if she can go.. and i rarely say NO, if we disagree and at times we do.. we talk till we agree. but you have to understand it is not equal because they are new to her life and were not that involved in the begining. so they have eased into it, although we have come farther than i ever dreamed. AND all are pretty happy with the way it has worked out.
His wife and I have worked our butts off to be nice to each other.. and in time, it isnt work any more, we dont have to pretend to be nice.
The best thing is our children dont have to see ugliness or anger in any situation, they can all be comfortable with him being in her life. It has truly made life better. It takes a lot of compromises on both sides to make it work.

you are all right about one thing.. The men have no choice in the say of adoption, or abortion, it is that womans body, They have a choice to be involved or not, and many have chosen NC.
I was asked to do both and i chose neither.. but i took all responsibility on my self as well and walked away.
I was told two days ago.. I cant believe I ask you to kill that baby; Thank God your too much of a ***** to listen to me. haha I think it was a compliment.
All I can say is get a good lawer and do what you can, it isnt fair to be railroaded, We can agree on that.. and I wish you lots of luck.. because no matter what we are all people and we all hurt and i HATE to see any one hurting.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]
My daughter has to spend time with them and I want her to have nice things as well when she is with them, including furnishings for her room and taking her places and such, they have to have money to do that, and my husband makes more any way. But I do believe he has a responsibility to help with things as does he. The money we get, xOM does not even notice and is happy with it, because it keeps peace at home,HIS HOME
How ever when i want to make a major purchase for daughter I tell them and they go halves with me, we also share all pictures, if i take snap shots of her i give them copies and they do the same, we try to keep it all pretty equal. the only thing not equal at the moment is visitation, I decide if she can go.. and i rarely say NO, if we disagree and at times we do.. we talk till we agree. but you have to understand it is not equal because they are new to her life and were not that involved in the begining. so they have eased into it, although we have come farther than i ever dreamed. AND all are pretty happy with the way it has worked out.
His wife and I have worked our butts off to be nice to each other.. and in time, it isnt work any more, we dont have to pretend to be nice.
The best thing is our children dont have to see ugliness or anger in any situation, they can all be comfortable with him being in her life. It has truly made life better. It takes a lot of compromises on both sides to make it work. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>See? THIS is what I mean. THIS is how it should be.<p>Mom of five....you should write a hand book on protocol for situations such as this.<p>Thanks...<p>Catnip =^^=

I was wondering after reading Momof5 story if she is right about something. I know that contact for many of you between H,yourself and OC is not something that you feel you want right now or maybe ever. I can understand what feelings drive that decision. Thought I wonder for the rest who struggle with big support payments and alot of anger if there is another way that someday may work for you.
I wondered as I read Moms account of how it is working in her life and how she and EX-OM worked out payments without court intervention,etc, if alot of that had to do with the relationship that exists between all parties. I know they're probably not having tea or barbeques together, but it seems that a civil relationship may be the key to avoiding the pain and frustration that seem to the norm. The courts seem to be the last place you'd want this payment thing worked out. I don't know how much Catnip is paying in CS but it must be alot to have her this worked up. I am just thinking outloud so please don't bash me on this. I don't think it would be any easy task to replicate the kind of relationship Moms' ex-OM and his wife have with her and the child but it seems to allow all 4 of the adults in her story to have some happiness and peace. In her case it struck me that something really good did come out of her A, all 4 adults love this child and they aren't fighting about outrageous payments. How can any of us heal and forgive if the fighting goes on and on? Just my thought for the morning.