LP,

In order to learn, your mind must be open.

MOF came here and was honest and open with you. If you aren't willing to open up your mind and look at life and these scenarios without the tunnel vision, you will never learn from people like MOF, who open there hearts to you and others here to try and facilitate healing of us all. We are ALL wounded spirits here.

I've responded to posts such as your and in my experience, very little is accomplished in terms of convincing you to do something in your heart, you are not capable of. It seems like you are here looking for justification in your decisions.

By the way, my mm knew perfectly well that I could become pregnant during the time that we did conceive. He knew and he persued and he wanted reassurances that I wanted his child and that I loved him all throughout our very long affair. It works both ways lemonpie. It takes 2 and I don't care what formula you come up with to try and justify otherwise. Once a child is conceived, there are permanant consequences to deal with, I know all too well, however, the ow and the mm have a relationship all it's own so to expect ow to come crawling to the bs is ridiculous! I've said it before and I say it again, the reality in these situations is the ws is the one who broke the vows to the bs, not the op. You are looking for apologies in the wrong place.

Mom of Five does have a remarkable H in many ways for accepting and loving her D by OM. But didn't you read that she is also a BS? On her knees everyday thanking God? Please, loose the judgements and GET REAL>

Katie Scarlett said something I thought was brilliantly accurate....

I often wonder what it is that would cause a man to be so careless as to not use BC. Even if she's on the pill condoms are still an option. Men aren't that stupid. They know that as soon as sperm hits egg their choices end. What's that saying, "an ounce of prevention..."[/QB][/QUOTE]

No need to say anymore.

CM

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

GROAN.

There are a lot of "you this" and "you that" going on here which causes people to head for the hills and stay in lurkdom rather than post.

In the beginning, this site was for Betrayed Spouses facing the horror of a child conceived outside the marriage. In the beginning, this was OUR place to vent and be angry without being chastised by OW's. Now we have the word police keeping us walking on eggshells and listening to long rants of excuses by OW's justifying and defending themselves.

While OW's defend themselves, which is fine, the defensiveness can get nasty and combative with post written in caps (shouting/screaming) to voice their displeasure at a Betrayed's question and opinion. This has always started one of those hot threads that eventually get locked by the adminsitrators and moderators.

I think the time has come for Betrayeds to have their own site and OW's to have their own site. Oil and water doesn't mix and neither do we. If the Betrayeds can no longer vent and be angry and say what they think and feel after what they have endured without verbal repercussions from OW's, then this site is of no use.

I am still at a loss why OW's would want to come here anyway. I would never want to post on GloryB and go into hostile territory...why would OW's feel comfortable here where the site was designed for Betrayeds? I know there are special circumstances where enlightened OW's with kind and gentle hearts who have an ability to have empathy for the Betrayeds can fare well here, allowing the Betrayeds to say their piece without being scolded, but by and large this site is being used to band together like an army to rush to each others defense rather than kindly and gently answer questions without a lot of "you" statements.

So many of the oldtimers are just so entirely sick and tired of being challenged that they have all just gone away instead of staying here to fight and argue...with good cause. We are not here to be challenged by women who are symbolic to us in many cases of the women who were interlopers into our lives. And if the OW's here cannot udnerstand that, then this is certainly not the place for them. Please ask Harley to create your own site for yourselves and we promise not to trespass unless invited.

(sigh)

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

catnip,

I was asked specific questions to which I tried to answer as honestly as I could.
I dont have to take ridicule either for just being honest,

and dont get too excited, my son did something to my computer and caps comes on all by itself, but by the time I notice I would have had to write the entire thing over.. so sorry if that bothered you.

I have a marriage and deal with the marriage and birth of my daughter and with the same things every one else deals with . While any one is entittled to vent I see no reason to attack any person, what does it solve, and Yes I am frequently attacked , because my views are different. I am not an OW I am a wife and mother , who wants to fix her marriage.
I wish no one any ill will and certainly hope lemon pie finds all her answers.

But just as you dont have to be insulted and feel free to say what you need, I have the right to do so as well.
AGAIN so sorry for the caps, it is an honest to god computer glitch with the keyboard and I dont know how to fix it.

But I will try.

and I have seen glory b.. sorry that is not for me, I dont see how that would promote a marriage for any one.

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Catnip,

I believe you have reminded us all of the origins of this site enough that it does not need repeating. We've heard your opinion and we've considered it. And now we move onward. MO5 responded to a specific request that was actually addressed to a woman who was in a relationship and conceived a child with her MM. That is why she posted Catnip. If the answers given are not acceptable, I would say, like, us "OW" (BS and WS that are also OW) then I say ONWARD. It is not okay to ask a question, I don't care if you are BS or whoever, and then get insulting when you do not hear what you'd like to hear. No one tells you that your writing style needs work, please lets not get into critiquing based on roles. It is not okay to vent if it is insulting and hurtful regardless if you are BS or not. I have come to believe that is nothing more than an excuse. Time and again you make a point that only applies by your rules. We should not use all caps, for we may trigger your anger, but BS does and it's okay..? Its a small example but I wanted to point out the excuses and the defensivness on your part, over and over, so many excuses and hypocracies. If you want to insult, persoanl emails would be the medium between BS's or WS or OW's.
Gloryb is not for married people. Many ow who are recovering from an affair are married and are rebuilding their marital relationships. Perhaps it would be best if you want to discuss an issue as a BS or ask a question, and then vent and insult, this is not the site for you, BS or not. Other BS post without insulting, they vent without insulting, it is not too much to expect or require. If you don't want to be "challenged" perhaps dont' ask the question, as in lemonpies case. She put the question out there. What did she really expect? I personally believe she got the responses she expected and she also got her justifications. Please, do not once again, tell us that we should go elsewhere while you justify verbal abuse. Its is wrong for anyone of us to do. You are projecting if you treat all ow as if we are your H's mistress. Just as I would be if I treated you as I feel toward ex-om's wife. All of this does stir alot of emotion, howerver, BS are not an exempt group. You can not come here and beat up OP's through insults. I know you must vent, but don't make excuses please.

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Catnip (and everyone):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the beginning, this site was for Betrayed Spouses facing the horror of a child conceived outside the marriage. In the beginning, this was OUR place to vent and be angry without being chastised by OW's. Now we have the word police keeping us walking on eggshells and listening to long rants of excuses by OW's justifying and defending themselves.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, in the beginning this site was for people trying to use MarriageBuilder's principles to build a marriage. When the forum was split into subforums, this pregnancy forum was created. I have never heard Steve Harley say that this particular forum was ONLY for Betrayed Spouses. And I feel pretty safe in saying that Steve himself would tell you that the intent of this place was to learn how to use the MB tools to restore your marriage through this horrow--- it was NEVER to sit and vent and gripe---it's not the way the Harley's do business.

This place should be for all people dealing with the repercussions of a pregancy or child from an affair---who are interested in rebuilding their marriage, using the basic tenents of MarriageBuilders. And most of the focus of this should be terms of productively dealing with the situation at hand.

The OW's that show up here stating that the OC "should come first" ought to be unceremonially booted out---they have no place here. They're not building a marriage. But I look at lemonpie's post and don't see any real questions here, nor do I see any effort at self-examination or productively dealing with her situation---I see it as a vent. A complaint. And an attack on OP's. I saw plenty of disrespectful judgements in lemonpie's posts---and those are clearly against MB use policy. It's fine to use these boards to deal with the anger that comes from being on the receiving end of an affair (and an OC)---but if you can't learn to process it and begin to move on, you will spend the rest of your life pretty miserable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know there are special circumstances where enlightened OW's with kind and gentle hearts who have an ability to have empathy for the Betrayeds can fare well here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The kindness, gentleness, and enlightenment needs to go both ways here. If you're rebuilding your marriage and dealing with this---you belong here. Man or woman. Betrayed or wayward. I get very saddened to see members (regardless of 'orientation') sitting around here complaining and attacking other members---the worse part is that they have a very, very long way to go in the healing process. This anger stage isn't something that ought to be prolonged, and it's certainly a stage that Steve Harley would move you out of ASAP if you were in counseling with him.

God bless

Catnip,

When I first started posting on this board that is exactly what I thought. I thought I could just let my feelings out and other BS would help me understand better.

MOF, BTDT, K, and CMiranda are correct in I did ask a specific question and I WAS NOT and AM NOT angry with their responses.

Again, it is obvious this site is not me, I knew this a year ago but once I was approached with my H wanting to see OC I decided to try this site again for comfort and understanding but once again I did not get what I needed with NO FAULT TO ANYONE HERE.

Again Catnip, thanks for understanding, I will continue to read, just not post.

Dear lemonpie,

I hope you don't stop posting. You are in a very delicate state right now and I think you need to keep talking about your feelings and working through them.

BTDT wrote about the MM:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why should he walk away with no ramifications when the reality hit of what we BOTH had done????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs are often been described as being in the "fog". You are seeing, hearing and believing what you want to believe rather than what is real. I believe that when a pregnancy occurs, it catapults both people into reality. But for a woman, sometimes the reality of life growing inside of her is very different from the man's reality. I fully agree that having a child should be a joint decision, but I can also understand why a woman would not wish to have an abortion or place a child for adoption.

Adoption is a viable option to abortion. You have heard many posters on MB say that both the man and woman created the child. If that is true then both should get equal say on the future of that child. If the OW refuses abortion and adoption then she should be prepared to raise the OC without the emotional involvement of the MM in the child's life and accept CS as his only responsibility to that child.

That is also a very hard decision. And, I would not over-glamorize the lives of single mothers. I am sure that they walk a very hard road as well but I believe it is love for their child, not a desire to hurt the MM's wife or family, that motivates them.

Lemonpie, what is there to gain by dwelling on how much guilt to place on the OW? My fear for you is that you are not going to heal if you focus on placing blame rather than dealing with the situation.

I know how hard it is to face this problem. It is probably the most painful thing I ever had to deal with in my life. But the OC exists and is not going away. The important thing is for you and your H to figure out how to handle this situation in a manner that will allow your marriage to survive and thrive.

You cannot handle contact at this time and that is understandable. You said that you might consider joint custody in the future. For now, is it a viable option for you to allow your H limited visitation (without the OW), perhaps with a third party? Perhaps you could set strict limits that would allow him to see the child but not subject you to a situation you are not ready for. Just a question.

What, if anything, do you think you could accept at this point?

love,
heavenly

Hey! Guys!

I ain't insulted and I ain't mad. But, this site was originally created for Betrayed and/or Wayward Spouses with OC's, K, who were desparate to rebuild their marriages. I certianly agree this is not just a place for venting... that is a part of it, though. The main reason for this site is to heal and to find answers.

Regardless what Lemon pie was trying to get from her post is irrelevant because her post indicated to me she was extremely hurt and angry...I understood that. If all she did was come here and carp and complain I am sure she would be guided toward healing as Heavenly guided her earlier....the way Heavenly gently and compassionately offered empathy and information is exactly what this site was like for a wonderful long time...filled with love and caring. The way Heavenly responded to Lemon Pie was light years ahead of the other answers (including mine) Lemon Pie received...they were kind, loving, understanding and disarming...like a soothing balm...not to be misconstrued as a trigger for OW's to come out shooting.

Look. It's hot. I am uncomfortable and really cranky today.

And, as always, when we sound off in caps, it is usually determined by others that they are being yelled at. Just FYI...no chastisement intended, just a perception. I've expressed myself with caps several times...not right or wrong, just an explanation so no need to get defensive, anyone.

I was alarmed at the immediate roll toward something unproductive and ugly as what we have experienced here so many times in the past and was hoping we wouldn't go down that path again. Now, Lemon pie, who clearly needs this site is leaving us. Great.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Hey Catnip, dear friend,

Our posts crossed. When I joined this site more than a year ago, we used to call it a "safe haven". We had OWs on the site, but they were looking for understanding not confrontation.

There was one in particular who touched all of our hearts. Although I cannot remember her name, she had a chronic illness and was raising twin boys alone. We all wondered what happened to her and prayed for her.

I think that most of us manage to express differing points of view pretty well, there are only a few that seem to ignite this Board and keep it always on the verge of all-out warfare.

As one of our veterans, with your feet always firmly planted in reality, we rely on you, Catnip, to call it as you see it. I started a separate thread on the purpose of this Forum with the hope that we could, as a support group, come to an understanding of how we are proceeding so that we can stop degenerating into namecalling, finger-pointing and accusations.

Catnip, you are so sweet to say the wonderful things that you said about me. But, we rely on your wisdom and your pragmatic nature, to keep us in line on this Forum. You know how much I have appreciated your wisdom and the countless spouses that you saved along the way.

Please start a thread and tell us what has been happening with you.

love,
heavenly

I have hid and watched this entire thread through it's ups and downs. I like the turn that it's finally taking.

Having just read what catnip wrote I went back and reread the original question. There is one part of it that I missed the first time around.

I'm gonna add my little 2 cents here again and I hope that it's helpful.

5 years ago I got pregnant under less than ideal circumstances (too long a story to go into now). At one point my son's father asked me "why do you want to have a baby by me?" I thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . And then I simply replied to him "it's not about you."

So when I read where lemonpie wrote
"...why she wanted a baby by a man she knew was married, she told me that was her business. I just don't get it."

I thought, maybe for this woman it's not about MM/lp's H. I loved my baby sooooo much from day one that I was willing to fight to keep and protect him. Maybe OW has run rough shod over your marriage LP. I don't really know the story and I don't know what her motivations are.

I know that in my story I was so thrilled to have my little bundle of joy that I didn't want to keep it a secret. And I didn't. I wanted him to have the best baby showers, birthday parties, etc.

I know that nothing I write here is going to make you like or understand this woman. And that's not my intension. But it may be worth considering the posibility that her intension was not to hurt you but rather that she was simply unthinking when it came to you.

I'm sorry for your pain.
ks

1. Why would a woman sleep with a man that she knows is married.
I didn&#8217;t know he was married. He and his W were living in separate states (he&#8217;s in the military). In all possible manners, MM appeared single. Our involvement developed over a period of time, during which we were as any other couple. We did not hide or sneak because I simply was unaware of a need to do so. When I finally did discover he was married, I ended the relationship immediately, but it was not soon enough. I was already pregnant&#8230;.I just didn&#8217;t know it yet.

2. Why would a woman allow herselp to become pregnant by a MM.
I think I explained the married part. As for getting pregnant at all&#8230;.it really was an accident. I was taking the pill faithfully. I didn&#8217;t miss a day! I came to find out during my pregnancy, that my mother had also gotten pregnant while on the pill (2 of 4 pregnancies).

3. After learning they are pregnant, why decide to keep child.
As Katie Scarlett stated previously, it wasn&#8217;t about MM. I had a child within me that was counting on me for its survival. It wasn&#8217;t an inanimate object that I could disconnect myself from. It was a part of me. After MM&#8217;s lies and betrayals, and then subjecting myself to BS&#8217;s never ending, humiliating questions and emotional attacks, I asked myself &#8220;how much do I have to suffer and give up to make it ok for them? What about me and making ME ok?&#8221; Not to discount the importance of the W&#8217;s pain, but I was also hurting. To expect me to give up my child in order to ease her pain, was asking too much. I couldn&#8217;t do it.

4. After all is said and done and child is here, why on earth do you think your C deserves so much when you have not only destroyed a marriage but a home and the lives of the children born of the marriage.
I believe my child deserves the world, as you probably think the same for yours. The circumstances of his conception were created by myself and MM and the burden should fall on us&#8230;not my son. I know that it is hard to separate the OC from the OW because the thought of either one can be the cause of immeasurable pain, but, honestly, how much fault does the child carry? Was it the child or the parents of the child, that caused your grief?

Lemonpie, I don&#8217;t know how much insight my answers gave. My situation is not your &#8220;traditional&#8221; extramarital affair since I did not even know it was one. In this same thread, you mentioned a lack of remorse. Believe me, LP, I have remorse and guilt. Whether I knew or not, does not change the fact that an innocent person was caused a great deal of pain by my actions. That weighs heavily on me. I feel that MM robbed me of my right to choose and also made me an accomplice to his crime. Although BS and I have been able to move forward and actually develop a strong, comfortable relationship, I will never forget the immense pain that was wrought.

OB1

Lemonpie,
Please stay, won't you?

I feel you CAN vent here safely without LB'ing your h at this time in your recovery.

Lord knows I vented and cried all over the place and every answer was of help to me.

Obrahtti, thank's again for refreshing your story. Your story is about deceit and lies MM created for you both. In your case you were lied to about him being married, different from KNOWING, 'eh?

Heavenlybody, you have helped me through so much last year. Your courage about everything you've endured in life has encouraged me.

Catnip, you fiesty 'ole woman! Thank Goodness for your trying to explain the very reason we BS get so raging mad.
Words such as "he pursued me" "He didn't want to be home", "he better be 100 percent a father or walk away", ummmm...let's see..."he'd still be with me if given the chance"..."he still lies to his wife" "oc is MOST important in this whole thing"....that's just a tip of the iceberg of hurtful things ow w'oc's here say.
Perhaps in reading, we hear our own ow say them.

I did.

Ow wanted H to be 100 percent father to oc. Couldn't happen. His number one priority lies with me now. She didn't accept me in any way shape or form and she knew we were married as she faked being my friend. H didn't fake being my h, he was a lot strange during those months, but he was still my h.

He begged ow not to keep baby, as she risked destroying a lot of adults lives as well as the baby. She did it anyway. Against even her families wishes. Although married in name her h remains thousands of miles away coming home to see his his 3 c's for holidays and important family milestones. Now instead of what she hoped would happen, she lives with her aging mom and FOUR fatherless c's.

We served her w/prosecutors papers in early April to make her leave us alone.

She still inserts herself legally, parking in front of his office, driving by our home etc.

So you see Lemonpie, at first I saw my own ow posting and it flipped me out.

They tend to repeat the same things over and over.

So do we.

So how about ignoring what isn't helping you.

Please work on a policy of joint agreement where oc is involved.

Lemonpie only handle what you can.

Dr. Harley recommends NO VISITATION to properly shield BS from further pain.

Works for us.

I wish you well.

Now all of you that incorporate oc's in your life, God bless you. I wish everyone here relief from all pain.

love
Debi

<small>[ August 15, 2002, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

I am not sure I see any thing productive about this entire thread. i SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE BAIT and shouldnt have responded in the first place, but I did so whats done is done.

I originally came to this site because I thought there would be may people here working on their marriage abd dealing with alot of the same issues as I was. I also wanted to find the best way to deal with sharing my daughter with someone as I had never tried to do that before.
I wanted to learn how others handled this and how they worked on getting along to benefit the marriage and to make things ok For the children all children.
It isnt fun dealing with this on any ones part.
I work so hard to be nice and show respect for his wife and try and understand her side of things at all times, you have know idea how hard I do that. Many times I compromise so as to not upset her and let her know that she is being included. That isnt an easy thing to do.

I guess to some here I dont sound sorry enough, believe me.. Life would be so much easier if I didnt allow him to have contact with his daughter and asked him or begged him to walk away. I dont do this for me..I do it for my daughter because I felt she needed to know . But since its here and we have to deal with this.. I have to make the best of it.

I long ago apologized to his wife and she and I talked it out and its done.. she doesnt sit around wanting me to apologize to her its been done. I ate humble pie and did it, for the sake of my child. Did I like it, no i did not, BUT HEY LIFE GOES ON. I have done all my crying and asking GOD to forgive me . But I am all cried out, I dont have any more tears. I have just reached that point of I cant change the past so make the best of it.
She even told her husband he owed my husband an apology as well, However he has not done that yet and I am sure never will.

For those of you who think keeping the child was some way to punish you, it isnt.. when a woman has a baby, most automatically love that child as their own, because the baby is growing in them.. it had nothing to do with hurting her more, I just wanted to do what I needed to do.
For those who think I have been unfair to OM.
I dont see how I could be any more fair,
I let him decide child support, even though I know I could get a few hundred more,I even let him decide when to come out in the open on his own and held on to paternity test till he was ready. we pay for insurance and medical for my daughter. It isnt a burden so why not.
I shop like crazy so all my girls have plenty of clothes if they buy her something once in a while it is fine, but not needed. we just smile and say thank you. and little one loves to try on new clothes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I feel that the four of us turned something bad into something good.
I know the viisitation we have is sorta unorthadox and I sometimes wish it was different.XOM and I decided we would work together and he would not be a weekend dad, so he is free to see her or talk to her any day he pleases and also it helps work around his busy schedule. other wise he would miss too many visits. XOM and I manage to work out all issues and while isnt perfect we arnt enemies so it is easier to work it out.
I am pretty protective of my children so sharing her was a hard thing to do, and I did learn alot about doing that from here. Because want it back said in a post she would let daughter go over night when she was 18 months.. I thought about it and decided I could do that and I have ever since.

My marriage is far from perfect and I work every day to make it better and try very hard to meet all my husbands needs. But since I am the mother of this little girl, I have a responsibility to care for her and love her and do what I think is best. I couldnt treat her different because her father is different.

I had to face my families just like he had to face his, It wasnt easy and I had to face the hurt and dissapointment of what I had done and what they would think or feel about me. I had to face my children and tell them, It broke my heart, but since OM decided he wanted and needed to be in D life, it could not be kept a secret.
We have all come through ok, But not before we all had lots of pain and hurt to deal with.

These situations are terrible for all involved and while The bs's and his or her children. If the OW/OM has children it effects them as well.

Unhappy wife said something on a thread that made me think, it was about resentment and how the ws would feel if he was asked to give up his child. he might grow and resent her.. but she stated and I dont know the exact words, but the the bs might grow to resent the ws for being with the child. Thats very true,
I believe we all just do what we have to do, but I dont think we should be faulted for it. I am not here to rub salt in wounds, these are just my feelings and things I have to deal with and while support would be nice, just because we are all people, I dont think many can seperate that I am not that differnt than your spouses, I made a mistake and the people around me forgave me and we are moving on just like you.
It is different when the woman is the ws and has the baby, because she gave birth, we are dealing with a whole other set of emotions there. My husband has some of the emotions you have, he has to deal with OM and doesnt like him, he loves daughter so that isnt an issue, but you see he was there when she was born and he was there for her every day, but I can tell you what was hard was when he had to start sharing daughter with someone else, and he has done well, but it is still painfull.

My husband knows he wasnt perfect and he knows why this happened and he has tried to put that aside. I take the blame, I could have said NO and certainly know how to do that, so I have no one to blame but me, I did all this to my self, So I have to take care of this the best way I know how.

I am sorry for your pain, and I do know the pain of being a bs, infact the bad part of this site has reminded me all to well, what I went through all those years and never dealt with it, because husband always felt the best way to deal with things was to say its in the past and we never talked, kinda like living in a silent hell.
I am able to understand the pain someone is going through and just because I have made mistakes doesnt mean I cant sympathize with someone who is going through pain themselves.

I guess the difference is I dont look at any of you and think You are like OM's wife, or like all the women my husband had through the years. I just see you as people so I dont understand why every one is not supportive of everyone.
I was upset about being attacked, but it is sort of pointless and I should not have responded.


I do not see why we shouldnt all support each other, I think we can all learn from each other.

Dear Ohbratti...it sure is good to see you here. You have been missed and I am so glad to see you posting.

BTDT...I use caps for emphasis, too. I also use it to scold or yell. Like I said, it's not right or wrong...I thought Mom of Five was yelling at LemonPie but came to find out she has computer quirks. And, I love your posts. Everyone does. You are a lot like Heavenly with your wisdom and compassion and understanding and you offer everyone here such great advice.

Mom of Five...The way you have handled your situation is extremely admirable and your kindness towards your BS tugs at my heart...I could only dream of being treated this way from my OW...it would make my life so much easier. I hope you know that I mean you no harm nor are my comments designed to insult you or hurt your feelings. I have great respect and admiration for you and when I am speaking out, it is in direct relation to the issue at hand. Not in a desparaging way toward you at all. I get so frustrated at the seemingly "siding of two camps" that I admit I am extremely territorial and protective. I am the self appointed "Gatekeeper" and will probably always feel like that and make no apologies. So what? I deeply appreciate the life saving suggestion, friends and healing I have received and feel it sometimes needs protecting.

I want everyone to be able to say what they think and feel without being scolded. A wounded BS sometimes mocks the OP's for therapeutic fun when they are being tortured in some way by their OP, and shouldn't be chastised for it. It's just a stupid way to get out the venom and resentment. I want OW's who come here to be able to vent their frustrations without repercussions. Ohbratti has done this regarding her situation with the OM and his wife moving closer to her and being more involved in her life. She received an outpouring of support from everyone here and she is one of us. So it isn't BS against OP here as much as it is feeling censored and resenting it. Neither Ohbratti or BTDT that ever taken anything any of us have ever said personally, and if they did, they intellectually knew we didn't mean them perosnally and let us say the outrageous things we sometimes say.

Lemon Pie in her anger and frustration did bait a lot of you...so what? The OP's here should be able to figure that out by now and understand there is someone here who is pissed and upset and just try to soothe her.

Catnip =^^=

Hey guys:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemon Pie in her anger and frustration did bait a lot of you...so what? The OP's here should be able to figure that out by now and understand there is someone here who is pissed and upset and just try to soothe her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the "so what" is that the baiting isn't OK. Understandable, sure. But lemon pie wouldn't be remiss in offering an apology for her behavior.

To turn this around---those OW's with OC were probably just pissed and upset and trying to 'bait' us all about how important it is to always include an OC in the lives of the married couple. I didn't see a whole lot of soothing going on there either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

Again, as unofficial 'gatekeeper' of this whole darn site (and probably as one of Steve Harley's top financial means for 1998-1999 in terms of counseling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), I would share something he ALWAYS told me.

If you hurt your spouse, apologize. Don't offer excuses. Apologize. And then---don't do it again. It's not a bad policy to apply to everyday life. We're only human here, and this is probably one of the toughest situations that someone can face---but it doesn't mean that it's OK to throw away these principles. In fact, it's times like these where you really need to take them to heart.

God bless you all.

<small>[ July 10, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>