Had to share....
On Sunday, lil' mama's mom called the house to arrange to pick her up from our weekend visit.
She asserted that she WOULD be picking her at 3 from my home.
My response...No, we'll meet you at 6 and drop her off.
Her rebuttle,
Well OK then, I'll PICK HER UP at 6.
My response....after a deafening silence,
No, we'll meet you somewhere at 6 to drop her off.

She apparently feels as though her daughter would be just peachy if she were to be able to pick her up from our home...a big NO NO in our book.
She actually ran this line on me..."I only have 'lil mama's interest at heart.

I diplomatically told her that I think it was great that she had her daughter's best interest at heart, but for me, I not only have to have the baby's interests at heart, but I also have to look out for my family.
We kinda went back on forth on the topic until I just finally broke it on down for her. I explained that droping her off at a public location at six was NON-NEGOTIABLE.
She so graciously complied.

How brazen can someone be? She just could not understand the harm in coming to my home????
Like I just fell of the turnip truck or something, I guess I was just supposed to comply.

ok with out fighting.. I am just trying to understand is there any reason you couldnt take the baby back to her home or vise versa.. exactly what does this hurt and why is that bad for the children.
I have to believe it is better for all children if they dont see fighting and this petty stuff going on...
That goes for both parties... children have big ears and these types of things are just not healthy for any of them.

I also believe that showing that sort of irritation over something that isnt that big of a deal..just makes this woman think you are insecure... why not show her it doesnt matter and that she is not a threat.
Just a thought and i know 90 percent of the people here are not going to agree, But since your sharing custody any way what is the big deal if you meet in the driveway or at a parking lot somewhere, except if you start exchanging at one anothers home, someone doesnt have to make a trip out and a child isnt made to feel like there should be something wrong with either parent... Doesnt mean you have to have lunch together as we do or b day parties as we do.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Basically thinking out loud...

I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO ANY BS, WS OP, OW , OM, OC.. I AM JUST CURIOUS.

Matthew, I think you are well within your boundaries in choosing when and where the c is dropped off /picked up.

At some time in the future you may want to expose this to everyone in the neighborhood, family, etc., but you needn't do a thing more than what you can handle at this time.

Ow and H should thank their lucky stars for you.

It is very unusual to include an oc in a marriage without repercussions.

OW will just have to realize you are doing what is best for you and your marriage at this time.

You did a great job Matthew, my accolades to you.
You and StaciaLee are some strong women for dealing with things as you have.
You have my utmost respect.

You handle things with dignity.

Do not be afraid to do only what you must at this time in your life.

Perhaps in another time things may change....

Bless you.
love
Debi

Mo5,

I don't know any of the reasons that "Matthew" would need to have the drop off/pick up away from her home, but do know of many who have gotten out of a violent relationship, and when their children are dropped off or picked up, they HAVE to meet in a public place. This is for the safety of the one who was abused. I know it isn't very often, but men can be abused as well as women. I also know that if our xOM ever found out about Abbi, and somehow got visitation, I have proof of his violent nature, threats to Sailorman's life, and such that he would NEVER be allowed to be at our home, even if it was just to drop off. If Matthew's xOW has threatened either Matthew or their children, I see nothing wrong in insisting that the drop off be at a public place.

You are very lucky to have a "relationship" with xOM and his W where there is no problem with dropping off and picking up from your home or his. I see Matthew as putting her foot down, and basically saying that they WILL stick to the original plan for visitation. I don't know if this was decided in or by the court either, which could cause a legal problem if things were changed w/out the court's knowledge. Changes such as those need to be discussed more than just a phone call saying that she will pick the baby up at Matthew's home at 3(and from what I understood about that was the original plan was 6 at the parking lot, not 3 at Matthew's home).

At least that's how I feel about what Matthew stated in her post. Not trying to contradict what you had to say, just what I know of other's arrangements for visitation and such.

Tigger

I am not offended. and your right in many cases it is needed to meet in public so that people do not exchange words and such and that violence is not there.. I was just curious because when there is none of that it seems more healthy for the children if every one [all parties] acted as adults and work together.

Of course if you have set times they should be respected..we dont have any set times, he can pick her up when ever he wants and bring her back the next day with in a resonable amount of time, usually he brings her early.. I am grateful we dont have to deal with any of this mess I would hate to be fighting over such stuff.
I just hate to see parents making this more difficult than they have to.

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

MO5,
I actually wondered the same thing. Then again I am the xOW so I would not DARE ask the question.

I am a pretty easy going and kicked back kind of person so it MAY not have been a big deal to me. I can't say since i'm not in that situation. On the other hand, i'm ALL about vibe. I am extremely careful who I allow into my home. It is a sacred place to us. Always peaceful and calm. So I could see not wanting to mess up the vibe of the house. I just assumed that that was Matthew's objection. But for a person who's going to be a round for a very long time (xOW) I wondered what's the harm.

Thanks Gem, and Tigger..you hit the nail on the head.

Mo5, there are MANY underlying issues that fueled my post. Since I must vent and get this junk off my chest, I'll list them now:

1. Throughout all of this mess, our home has been our private place and sanctuary where we can just get it all out and let it go.
2. I don't want any of her negative energy in my home.
3. In our conversation, she mentioned she only had her daughter's interests at heart, but in a conversation last night, she mentioned is was too tough for her to walk away from her daughter if she's pulling a separation-anxiety tantrum (which ceases when they leave)
4. I have made concession after concession for the baby. I will continue to do so, only if my sanity is not at stake. However, I will no make concessions for her mom.
5. Our LEGAL agreement states that we are to 7. pick her up from day care on Friday night (no contact w/ family) and drop her off at daycare on Monday morning (again no family contact). We realize that that's an abrupt change and wanted to ease into that schedule. As such we've agreed to picking her up with a family member present (we've even allowed her grandmom and granddad to drop off/pick up at our home) on Friday night and doing the same routing for Sunday evening, at 6.
6. If we wanted to be total idiots about the situation we would disregard the baby's feelings and cut out contact with her mom alltogether and just go by the legal agreement.
7. Furthermore, what difference would it make if she dropped her off at my home? What's the next step..."I really need to sit and stay a while until she stops crying....I really need to give her her bath until she's settled in.....let me just tuck her in until she's asleep then, I'll be comfortable enough to leave.
8. As far as insecurity, I'm not at all insecure about her or what her intentions are. I just like to take the proactive approach....."don't invite the enemy in and then act surprised when they've taken over." Or better yet, you give your enemy an inch, then they'll be the ruler.
9. None of this is negotiable. If SHE, the adult, has a problem with separation anxiety the SHE, the adult, needs to find a way to deal with it, it's not my job nor is it my husband's job to make her feel better.
10. IT'S MY HOUSE....IT'S MY FAMILY....AND DAMNIT, I JUST DON'T WANT HER SCENT IN MY HOME!!!!!!!!!!!

well sometimes you learn the hard way that a little grace goes a long way. My husband didnt want OM in his house.. why should he.. But he knows whats best for our daughter is to not see all the turmoil of raising a child in this way..

I think I shall thank OM'S wife and MY husband for agreeing with om and I how this should be done. Sorry this is so difficlt .. How very sad for the child to be raised in such a manner.
I will gladly take a birthday party with his wife in his back yard or have her come in and visit in my home over this any day.
and as a mother sometimes it is very difficult to let your child go into an environment you are not sure of... That is quite normal for any parent to experience and in time it will lesson, but with such anger I can understand why she is uneasy I would be as well.

sorry this is such a bad situation for all of you.
Hope it gets better

What mother wouldnt worry about leaving a crying baby.. and when mother is worried baby is worried, goes hand in hand.. why do you think I smile and share pictures and make nice every time I see his wife... Because we are friends hardly.. why do you think she takes pictures of my daughter and sends them, or called because I am ill and she wanted to help with baby if I was in need of help. all because she like my bubbly personality <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No we do it because there is a very impressionable little girl we are all responsible for and we want her to feel secure and grow up happy... AND because of us being able to grin and bare it.. she is Happy when she goes with OM and she is happy when she comes home and I dont worry about her so much while she is away.

I was merely wondering why no one thinks of these things... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

First of all mo5,
Let me give you more history:
**We initially requested time w/ lil lady when she was born. Mom refused, she had to be present for ALL visits..not remotely present giving us space, but intimately present and interacting with us. As a result, we lost the opportunity for bonding from infancy, therefore bonding now takes more time as she has developed healthy, non-dramatical attachments with mom and mom's family....not ours
**In a mediation session she brazenly suggested that this entire process was not only about the baby's needs, but her's also???? not!

You are correct... a little grace. And I've already bent over backwards. Having xow in my home, even for the baby's sake is creating an environment where I don't feel like I can relax in my home and I don't want to ever feel that way.
Poor me, I guess I'm just terretorial that way, your husband is obviously lightyears ahead of me in the grace department, lucky for your daughter....at least so it seems.

I think children's needs are important, but I think the needs of adults are just as important and shouldn't be sacrificed to the point of extreme discomfort especially IN MY OWN HOME, and for a marginal improvement in what is an awkward situation.

I agree to some concessions and definatly demand and give respect and pleasantries when we're all present, we've never shared a cross word...up until now. And I do the same things as your bs, I've sent pictures, letters and everything inbetween to make her feel more comfort with her daughter being in our lives. I've sent pictures of my son, pictures of my son and lil' mama together, written letters about her activities, etc....still not enough.

mo5, she has no choice but to accept that her child will be a part of our lives and I draw the line at my home. If what we've done is not enough to suit HER needs tough.

In conclusion,
I hardly think you're qualified to pass judgement on how we've handled this and the potential impact to lil lady. I'd rather take a harder MORE REALISTIC APPROACH to coping with this knowing that with time things will get better, than to take the 'MADE FOR TV MOVIE' approach of solving problems and everyone's ok within a two hour time frame.
You choose your path to healing and raising your children, and I'll choose mine.

two hours HARDLY.. It has taken almost three years and we still work on this daily.. It is hard for all.

I am not trying to insult you nor trying to argue with you, However keeping someones scent out of your home is hardly much of an argument.

I didnt say invite her to tea.. I just said what was the big deal if she pulled up in your drive way to pick up her daughter.

Harder more realistic

Ok The realistic approach for me is OM and I made a child together whom we both love dearly enough that we choose to be co parents and do so amicably. Because we believe that is best for our daughter together.. OM and I sat and Talked and WE made the decision together if he was going to be involved in her life this is how we want it to be . He and I made these rules together and we all four practice them.

I wasnt suggesting you do what I do this is right for me and my family and OM and his family. I was just explaining that is normal for a parent to worry over her child, this doesnt make her a bad mother. Missing a child when she is gone is also a normal feeling for a parent to have.

again I was not trying to insult you and did not mean disrespect just asked a question. You dont have to insult someone because their opinion differs from you.
Lighten up I am not fighting with you, just offering a different point of view.

mo5,
Again,
It's good to know your husband was kind enough to stay out of you an xmm's business and accpet the rules the two of you decided everyone should live by regarding your daughter.

Not quite our situation. We've chosen to do what's best for our marriage first, children are a very close second. I think that's where you and I fundamentally disagree.
That's fine.

I won't apologize if I play tag kinda rough right now, but thanks for the input. Just like when I post to the 'tow' message board on the same topic, I know some of the responses will be a little rough, but that's their right. They're in their safe haven and at any given time any of the participants can be in their acceptance phase of grief (where the responses are lighter), or could be cycling through the grief stages all over again due to a trigger.

At some point, the exOW has to let go.
She must for the well being of the child.

Mo5 has to let go when exOM takes their daughter for the time that he and his W have her.

Whether anyone likes it is not the issue. There are definite places of personal space and the exOP needs not invade on them. There SHOULD be boundaries and they SHOULD be adhered to.

We have an exchange place that we meet exOW at every Wednesday and Sunday. We feel that it is a “transition place” for Lil Bit to understand that she is transitioning from one Home to another. So far, it’s been very good for all involved.

I also do not want exOW in my home. I have put my foot down and said that would not happen.. EVER.
The court actually agreed with me. The GAL said that it was not in the best interest of the child to have to deal with the presence of the exOW in our home, too confusing for the child. The child needs to learn that they have 2 separate families.
The GAL insisted that there be an exchange place and exOW threw a fit about it, but the GAL said it had to be. It is also in the Court Order.

Matthew, I think you have a valid point and I fully agree with you.

Mo5, your situation is different and much more civil than Matthew’s or mine. I applaud you for your efforts with the exOM and his W, regarding you daughter.

JMHO

You are right stacia, the first couple of times I let my daughter go were very difficult for me and my husband but I did have learn to let go. I still work on it.

My husband and I usually try and look at it as a babysitter and we go do something fun for us with out the children. so it brings us closer together.

Matthew

If I had a choice of my marriage the way it was before the affair or the way it is now.. I would pray for the way it is now any day...
We have learned how to communicate, we dont fight over things, we are learning to be with each other again. He isnt violent, He isnt drinking , he is spending time with his family... As long as my husband and I are in agreement with each other, then the rest doesnt matter, every once in a while they may ask something and my husband has said NO before. SO when he does this, I say I am sorry H feels we should not do this and I need to support his decision.

I am not looking for an apology, I also dont expect people to always agree with me... we can respectfully agree to disagree.

OK...I've vented. Now it's time for solutions.

Stacia, MO 5, can you give me ideas on a transition place? So far, we've used McDonalds, but that's a place all-too frequented for everyone for her to begin to understand the transition/separate family concept.

Do you, or mo5 have suggestions on how to approach this and find a solution? I truly understand her angst, but I'm just not willing to compromise my comfort for her....somebody move that dead horse out the way please??

Thanks for suggestions!!

what about stacias idea of the exact same place each and every time so she learns it is a transition period.. a local park or maybe your local chuch parking lot.

But the same place each time is a great idea and a security to the child.
children love stability and there is no reason she cant get that from meeting at the same place each week if every one lives close enough.

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Matthew,
We actually exchange in the parking lot of a particular Grocery Store in our area.
It was not our choice, though it works out GREAT for us. ExOW’s mother chose it. We drive less than ¼ mile and exOW has to drive 5-6 miles..
The place that you choose should be a public place, where incase of altercation there are witnesses. You don’t want a place that is too crowded, though.
McDonald’s is fine... later in the arrangement…but in the early stages a parking lot is much better.

Lil Bit has learned that when she sees her Daddy at this place she is going with us. No crying, no fussing.
We have had an exchange at one other place…but that only lasted for 2 exchanges.
We, also, have not run into exOW and Lil Bit out in public. I am curious how Lil Bit would react to seeing us in that situation.

My only problem with exchanges, when Lil Bit goes back she fights… she doesn’t seem want to go with exOW. We have seen she throw a fit as exOW places her in the car… she never fights us when we put her in our car. ExOW has gotten to the point that she pops a bottle in her mouth to hush her. My problem with this… She refuses bottles at our house. She is on sippy cups only.
My MIL has also brought to my attention that Lil Bit will throw a fit when H and I are not around. (We will leave her with MIL while we go down to the garden) She will cry and fuss. MIL’s thinking on this… Lil Bit is afraid to be away from us.
As Lil Bit is only 1 yr old… and exOW has such a history…. I am terrified for Lil Bit. I don’t know what is going on… and it scares me to death.

Mo5,
I know all to well the separation anxieties of being apart from your child. I feel it every week even though she is not mine biologically.

Doesnt have to be yours biologically to feel it. When we were adopting our daughter, we had to give her back to the foster home for three days and then back to us for four days, WHEN she would leave she would be devistated and I would cry all the way home. when she would leave she would be healthy, when they returned her she would be unclean, and sick, always sick..
It was very stressful for all.
I am sure you go through all those same feelings. Doesnt take biology to love a child.

Well said, Mo5.

IMO, the cold hard fact is that sometimes parents or other relatives simply cannot stand each other. It is an unhappy fact for the children but it is the truth.

After my mother asked my father for a divorce, my grandmother (his mother) would not allow my mother in her house--even though my mother drove 200 miles to drop us off to visit her ex-mother-in-law.

I think that we all have a right to a private place, somewhere that is ours and inviolate. For me one of the big issues is that twice Mr. J took exOW into our house. There was no sex there. They stopped off to feed our dog while I was away on a business trip. Mr. J took here there because she was so insistent on a) seeing where he lived and b) seeing, from my portrait over the piano, what I looked like. I was furious after D-day when I learned that she had been in my house. I felt doubly violated. I told my SIL what had happened and even though she is Mr. J's sister she immediately knew what the violation was, she understood completely. If we had not already moved, believe me, we would have.

Women express their personality through their home, how the decorate, how they keep and maintain it. It is as intimate to me as my underwear drawer. It is to be shared only with those I trust (not that I ever share my underwear drawer with anyone).

Our marriage counselor was trying to get me and exOW to talk and come to some sort of truce. My IC said that she thought he was absolutely wrong on this one, that I have a right to stand firm and draw boundaries. You are not my friend. You hurt me in ways that while I may forgive, I will forgive with the door shut. I found I did not need to take a stance quite that firm, but if I needed it for my own sense of safety, I certainly would have. Mr. J has apologized for trying to make us be friends. He now realizes that by loving and accepting Precious, I have gone as far as I can or will go. This woman wanted every part of my life and she did everything in her power to see that she got it. She wanted my destruction; she is, and always will be, someone I do not like and do not respect. I think we might again be talking the married or single OW question.

The truth is that W and exOW don't ever have to like each other, in fact, they may strongly dislike each other. Is it hard on the child? Yup, but it is reality and to put a false face on it seems to be to be a disservice to everyone. When the time comes that the child questions it, my answer would be "Precious, your dad and I love. You are the sweetest little girl we could imagine but your mommy and I are not friends. We don't like each other and it is best for all of us that we don't pretend to like each other. I only invite my friends to my house."

Mo5, I am happy it is working out so well for you and that you are all able to make this work. Do you think your H is more accommodating because he has had multiple affairs? If I had wandered as far from the path as my H did, I might not feel so justified in my opinion of exOW. Really not intending any offense; just asking. I actually have wondered if you (not M05, just anyone) had already cheated on your spouse if it hurts less if your spouse cheats back. It seems you certainly have less ground to stand on. Ooooh good thread.

MJ

IMO, the cold hard fact is that sometimes parents or other relatives simply cannot stand each other. It is an unhappy fact for the children but it is the truth.

After my mother asked my father for a divorce, my grandmother (his mother) would not allow my mother in her house--even though my mother drove 200 miles to drop us off to visit her ex-mother-in-law.

I think that we all have a right to a private place, somewhere that is ours and inviolate. For me one of the big issues is that twice Mr. J took exOW into our house. There was no sex there. They stopped off to feed our dog while I was away on a business trip. Mr. J took here there because she was so insistent on a) seeing where he lived and b) seeing, from my portrait over the piano, what I looked like. I was furious after D-day when I learned that she had been in my house. I felt doubly violated. I told my SIL what had happened and even though she is Mr. J's sister she immediately knew what the violation was, she understood completely. If we had not already moved, believe me, we would have.

Women express their personality through their home, how the decorate, how they keep and maintain it. It is as intimate to me as my underwear drawer. It is to be shared only with those I trust (not that I ever share my underwear drawer with anyone).

Our marriage counselor was trying to get me and exOW to talk and come to some sort of truce. My IC said that she thought he was absolutely wrong on this one, that I have a right to stand firm and draw boundaries. You are not my friend. You hurt me in ways that while I may forgive, I will forgive with the door shut. I found I did not need to take a stance quite that firm, but if I needed it for my own sense of safety, I certainly would have. Mr. J has apologized for trying to make us be friends. He now realizes that by loving and accepting Precious, I have gone as far as I can or will go. This woman wanted every part of my life and she did everything in her power to see that she got it. She wanted my destruction; she is, and always will be, someone I do not like and do not respect. I think we might again be talking the married or single OW question.

The truth is that W and exOW don't ever have to like each other, in fact, they may strongly dislike each other. Is it hard on the child? Yup, but it is reality and to put a false face on it seems to be to be a disservice to everyone. When the time comes that the child questions it, my answer would be "Precious, your dad and I love you. You are the sweetest little girl we could imagine but your mommy and I are not friends. We don't like each other and it is best for all of us that we don't pretend to like each other. I only invite my friends to my house."

Mo5, I am happy it is working out so well for you and that you are all able to make this work. Do you think your H is more accommodating because he has had multiple affairs? If I had wandered as far from the path as my H did, I might not feel so justified in my opinion of exOW. Really not intending any offense; just asking. I actually have wondered if you (not M05, just anyone) had already cheated on your spouse if it hurts less if your spouse cheats back. It seems you certainly have less ground to stand on. Ooooh good thread.

MJ

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>