Hi MO5
Boy!! reading your post was something. It kicked up feelings in me concerning my own situation. I'm no where in the position you and your H. are in. My H. and I just started communicating.

I have the utmost respect for your H. being a man, and continueing to love you inspite of, This is hard for me. My H. had the affair while we was separated but still seeing me at the same time.

I would have to except H. OC. but I don't want any dealings with OW. She's very vindictive and keeps drama. Dealing with this situation is enough on my plate with out her adding appetizer to the menu.

I would like to know more about your story if possible. I do have one question for you.
Why do you have a dislike for OW? just need clarity that's all.

Far as your situation listen to your H. OM has no right placing demands on you, after all you are with your H. not him.

You can ask OM what is his reason for not wanting his W. to see your daughter what is his motives is it emotional blackmail?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]he bullys her more than any one but she chooses to be there so I dont feel sorry for her.

My personal feelings is this started because om was going out of town for a few days for personal reasons that did not include her and this was a trigger for her,

I think that is why she called so early and wanted to meet me tomorrow.. to make sure I was really in town still. and not with him.. why do I think this.. because he travels all the time and every time she calls for something the next day. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. I feel sorry for her. If you re-read what you wrote, don't you feel somewhat sorry for her? Shoot, I would. Imagine a woman who has invested a number of years into a marraige with someone she loved, who vowed he would love only her, forsaking all others, through the best and worst of times, until death. And then, years later find out he had a huge on-going affair with someone and produced a child.

She is basically stuck. She doesn't want to give up the great times, history, memories and she could very well be still shell-shocked from the fact her husband was capable of doing this to her. Then, she has graciously accepted your daughter, is more than civil to you while you tell everyone here on many occasions that you do not like her but never tell us why.

She knows you don't like her and probably couldn't care less how you feel about her but she is making the best of a bad situation and meanwhile has fallen in love with her husband's child and valiantly ignores the fact who her mother is and just puts blinders on to the pain. The only time the blinders come off is when her husband leaves town and she is once again thrown back in time, remembering the deceit and lies and the searing heartache of knowing he is with you. Of course she is calling to check up on where you are. The last thing she ever wants is for you to be with her husband again. He is her husband and she is territorial. They have the life together and the history and she doesn't want to loose anything more of what is really only belonging to her. I feel really sorry for her because her husband is cruel and I hope you don't get a measure of satisfaction from their fighting and her discomfort and uneasiness about your coordinates when he is out of town. It sounds like it anyway and if I'm wrong, sorry.

My heart breaks for this woman because she tries and she acquiesces and it isn't easy, in fact, it is the hardest thing and the most embarrassing thing in the world to her to have everyone know that her husband left her for a time for you. She probably thinks people think there is something wrong with her or you are more desirable when nothing could be further from the truth. She probably thinks that her husband still has feelings for you and it breaks her heart and she can't figure out why or what she is doing wrong. She probably thinks "keep your enemies close" and if she accepts this child and learns to love her, somehow her marriage will survive.

No one should be put in this position yet many of us are in this position and it is more devastating than loosing your husband to death, which would be far, far easier.

A little empathy goes a long way in a situation like this. When the OW is compassioante and understanding and realizes the full impact of what the BS has been through and is trying to make the best of a bad situation, the BS won't be so "trigger happy" when H has to leave town because if you dislike her and secretly enjoy her pain, she will sense it and become more protective of her turf.

Their "fight" over whatever that is spilling over into your daughter's life is manipulative on FMM's part. His cruelty is hurting this little girl, hurting his wife, upsetting you and annoying your husband. He absolutely right on how to handle this. You will probably enter into a POJA on this with him because you are working the program so diligently and are so protective of your daughter.

It must be so difficult having this couple interfering into your life and making things so complicated for you and your hsuband. Life would be so much less traumatic for this little girl if all she knew as Mommy and Daddy was you and your husband. since it is too late to change the dynamics here, it's important to create some really, really strong boundaries with FMM so he doesn't pull this [censored] again. It must be so disruptive to your family and lives.

Good luck

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

yes catnip I read what I wrote, But I, like you come hear to vent so I dont do something like say the wrong thing to someone else, it is not meant as cruel or mean or anything else, . I am always aware of how this might make her feel and very careful about what I say or do. I spend alot of time being polite to her. I also dont write out everything about her on here.. because I dont think they would appreciate reading it on here if they stumbled across. But it doesnt really matter why I dont like her. She isnt a very friendly person and it has nothing to do with me, she has always been that way and everyone thinks the same way about her. In fact I am probably the nicest person to her besides her family and she and I have never been friends.
WE dont have arguments or go back and forth.. No I do not want them fighting in front of my daughter, what they do with each other.. I REALLY DONT CARE. I dont think I should be distraught over it, I have my own marriage to worry about. Cat nip yes she is civil to me, and i am civil to her, doesnt mean we dont both sit and tell someone we cant stand the other person. She doesnt like me either, so I am not sure why that bothers you.. DO you think we should be buddies..I said we are all nice and polite to each other and will continue to do so for my daughters sake.

The only responsibility I have Is to tell my husband what I am doing and how I feel. I have a responsability to make sure my daughter is safe and happy and loved. I have no plans to cater to her insecurities for the rest of my life and can you tell me why I should... I moved on in my life .. she will in time have to move on with hers.
She isnt stuck, she chooses to be where she is just as I choose to be with my husband and stay with him and work on things after all he has done.
I dont feel sorry for me BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO BE WITH HIM.
when her husband has to leave town I do not secretly enjoy her pain, but I have no plans every time he leaves town to spend every afternoon with her nor sit on the phone or the computer and chat with her so that she knows I am home. That is ridiculous and that is her husbands job to make her feel secure not mine.

CATNIP
I have spent a very long time being polite and respectful to her and have apologized to her and I also work over time to make sure when she is around me she is comfortable.. but I cant fix everything. I am very busy and do not have time to make her feel better every time he leaves town [which is every week] AND why would she want me to ?
I didnt know I needed to give a reason why I didnt like her. seems we all want one. Lets just say I dont and leave it at that.. but dont get to upset she doesnt like me either.. doesnt mean you cant be nice to someone you dont like. If she is getting vibes than she is getting them from her husband not me. and he should fix it not me.

life would be easier, but like you said hindsight.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> SO in the meantime we will continue to work on things.
I use this place to vent because certain things annoy me. Not to be mean and cruel .

OM has a strong personality and always has , he isnt changing and she and I both know this.. so she will deal with it the same way she has since they married. Of course it was a dumb move on mm's part.. but other than a little annoying it hasnt effected our lives that much, we go on as usual, we have 5 kids, never a dull moment around here. I dont have time to sit and worry.

and if you must know she met me to have the pictures taken I even let her pick the backgrounds, My husband said if I thought it was best he didnt care, but he wasnt going to argue with om about it.. so I called her and she met me, infact I spent 4 hours with her.. with three of my children.. We shopped made small talked. I even corrected a sales lady when she thought this woman was the grandmother.. ANY one seeing us together would have never known we werent all just good friends or family.
DID i THINK IT WAS pleasant ? Not really but would any one know it!? Nope.
Last night om called and told me thank you for calling her and he would make sure they didnt do that in front of daughter again.

I think what you dont understand is, these little episodes dont really interfere in our life that much, because we remove ourselves and our children from anything unpleasant. Of course they concern me, but we are not reminded of them daily.
I think if om would just tell her the truth for once and get it over with, then she wouldnt be so insecure, because he keeps forgetting what truth he told her and when.. That would go along way to settle her insecurities. But not my place so WHY do people think I should be the one to fix it. I dont think OM can fix my marriage.. That is up to me and my husband.
when I get the opportunity I will say something to both of them together so there is no misunderstanding. Then I will leave it alone.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have the utmost respect for your H. being a man, and continueing to love you inspite of </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi malc
I always find this statement kind of funny. I guess I dont see things the way you see them, but you havent lived my life. I hear this alot, but mostly from people who dont know what it was like for me with my husband before the affair.
My husband has had more women than years we have been married, he was abusive, mentally and physically. He was just plain mean.
Since I had my daughter, he has become more loving , doesnt drink, doesnt abuse me in any way. He is more involved with the children and he now realises what damage he has done over the years. He in a sense woke up and knows what he could lose, he isnt perfect and He may very well cheat again, but if he does I can deal with it, i WILL make a choice. Just like I made a choice for all these years.But I know I will be fine.
AM I GLAD we are giving it one more try!? yes I am and I have worked harder on this than anything in my life. But do I feel sorry for my husband NO I DO NOT. He had a choice he could leave and he did not. I can not change the past and do not want to, because the past has made me strong and I am more happy today than I was all the other years with him combined.

But I have learned to respect him more since this and we will both have to work hard to recover from the past.

I know it is hard to accept ow and the oc, but you have to know that baby loves his/her mommy and she is a part of that childs life and it isnt healthy for the baby to not feel thats ok. and that mommy is important just like daddy is important. Takes work though and not every one can do it.

I cant really say why I dont like his wife.. It wouldnt be appropriate to say on here. But there is no requirement you like ow or vise versa. We are respectful of each other and are polite. so I dont guess the other matters so much.

I do wish you luck in your situation, i am sure this is a difficult period for all. We are a couple of years into this so I am not quite as emotional as some on here. But I do know the pain of being betrayed and how difficult it is. I do not know what it is like to know your husband fathered another child.. I have om's child, but I feel no different towards her than I do my other children. SHE is great and I am thrilled to have her, such a joy to our lives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I consider myself blessed to have her. She has taught all of us a lesson or two. Love is unconditional for one, She loves us all reguardless of our history or our future, She has two families that love her and although I would rather her only have the one, she loves her daddy and his wife and she will continue to be in their life, so I must deal with that accordingly.

noplace,
I think we all learn from each other on here. I do all the time, sometimes I learn about my self and other times I learn That life isnt so bad.. so if you learn from my mistakes or even if you think shes nuts lol thats ok, you at least learned what not to do.
POJA
That has to be one of the hardest things to do.. a great source of frustration to us. I spent many years handling everything, and not asking, because I was expected to do everything, I now include him in everything, and allthough he doesnt like it, he tries. He would just rather me handle most things on my own.

We wll have to continue to work on it. My husband reads this stuff sometimes but he wont post he will just make comments ever so often about someones post. He has read the concepts but he thinks they are silly, I am working on getting him to go to counceling. but he thinks he has no problems..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]She doesnt like me either, so I am not sure why that bothers you.. DO you think we should be buddies..I said we are all nice and polite to each other and will continue to do so for my daughters sake.

The only responsibility I have Is to tell my husband what I am doing and how I feel. I have a responsability to make sure my daughter is safe and happy and loved. I have no plans to cater to her insecurities for the rest of my life and can you tell me why I should... I moved on in my life .. she will in time have to move on with hers.
She isnt stuck, she chooses to be where she is just as I choose to be with my husband and stay with him and work on things after all he has done.
I dont feel sorry for me BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO BE WITH HIM.
when her husband has to leave town I do not secretly enjoy her pain, but I have no plans every time he leaves town to spend every afternoon with her nor sit on the phone or the computer and chat with her so that she knows I am home. That is ridiculous and that is her husbands job to make her feel secure not mine.

CATNIP
I have spent a very long time being polite and respectful to her and have apologized to her and I also work over time to make sure when she is around me she is comfortable.. but I cant fix everything. I am very busy and do not have time to make her feel better every time he leaves town [which is every week] AND why would she want me to ?
I didnt know I needed to give a reason why I didnt like her. seems we all want one. Lets just say I dont and leave it at that.. but dont get to upset she doesnt like me either.. doesnt mean you cant be nice to someone you dont like. If she is getting vibes than she is getting them from her husband not me. and he should fix it not me.

life would be easier, but like you said hindsight.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> SO in the meantime we will continue to work on things.
I use this place to vent because certain things annoy me. Not to be mean and cruel .

and if you must know she met me to have the pictures taken I even let her pick the backgrounds, My husband said if I thought it was best he didnt care, but he wasnt going to argue with om about it.. so I called her and she met me,
DID i THINK IT WAS pleasant ? Not really but would any one know it!? Nope.
Last night om called and told me thank you for calling her and he would make sure they didnt do that in front of daughter again.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me thinks thou dost protests too much!

Sheesh! Relax! Talk about super hyper defensive!!! My God, MOF, I don't really care one way or the other. I just felt bad for the BS because when her husband leaves town she's so threatened by what has happened that she immediately gets on the phone to you. My heart went out to her and I thought you sounded kind of smug about it.

Vent away, MOF...everyone does. I wasn't scolding you, just questioning you.

I can't believe you find so much time to sit on this site and get so indignant when you have a rack of kids to take care of. You are a super woman to be sure!

This site now officially belongs to all the OW's who have had children with a married man and justify their behavior, get insulted and defend themselves as if they are the victims when in reality they are the perps. There are so many of you here now that none of the regulars are here anymore. Congratulations on your success at chasing away those for whom this site was officially founded.

Catnip =^^=

Catnip,

I wanted to make a few comments. First, please take note at the timestamp on MO5 posts. Sure seems to me that she is coming here to seek, vent, and share when she has down time. Great time management if you ask me, with the rack of kids and all. Us Moms are entitled to have a life of our own and I'm so happy she can do with 5 children.

Besides that, I wanted to say, that as one of the OW's 'round here, I thought I'd also say, that along with having MM child, we also are WS. Sometimes, I have found that I need to hear what the BS has to say, even when I don't want to hear it. It helps to understand the whole picture, not only the view that I have from my seat.
I can understand that sometimes we get triggered by one another, but I do think the dynamics of this site now are in balance. Where as before, if all the BS just #itched and moaned, what good does that do for moving on? It may help to prevent LBing all over the place, but anger and hate keep you stuck. Understanding and forgiveness is the goal, at least it is for me. See, I may be a WS and an OW, but I am also an abused wife. I am an OW who had a 6 1/2 yr. A with man that who chose to be with me. I didn't twist his arm. I am trying desperately to get over that relationship and do right by my M. I am suffering the loss of that relationship, the loss of a great love and friendship. Being his OW wasn't some picnic, the A is emotionally devestating for both the WS and the OP. The A is not normally about the BS at all. Its about the WS.
The last thing I feel like is a PERP!! I know that I am not. I am a victim in my own right, as you are. Lets be honest, affairs happen because the M relationship is broken. Please stop blaming OW/OM for the affair.
If I tell my H about A, OM will have to tell his W. As I have told him, the last thing I need as a person, is to have his BS come along and blame ME for his actions and his choices. I can empathisize but I will never, ever assume the role of PERP. I know better, in my A, it didn't work that way. I've learned that my A is not so unique.
With that feeling in mind, I have to say, please, nudge over and make room for the many people here, who by definition are not only BS's, or perhaps not BS's at all. (or at least don't know that they are). We have all been burned and we all deserve to come here as needed and heal.

warm regards,
CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This site now officially belongs to all the OW's who have had children with a married man and justify their behavior, get insulted and defend themselves as if they are the victims when in reality they are the perps. There are so many of you here now that none of the regulars are here anymore. Congratulations on your success at chasing away those for whom this site was officially founded.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry you feel that way, Catnip.

A couple weeks ago I was really at my wit's end. I really don't have any friends I could talk to about my situation (not the kind of thing you want to bring up at ladies Bible study) and didn't want to hash out all of what I was feeling, thinking, and wondering about with my husband.

When I stumbled upon this website I thanked God because I believed He led me to an anonymous support group where I could come, learn, vent, gain insights, be understood, and maybe even give back now and again when I see that I might have a little something to offer.

I didn't come here to defend what I had done. But it was comforting to know that I was not alone. And God has used that fact to bring healing to me. Yes, I, as the OW, the perpetrator, still deserve to be healed.

Those who seek healing - those that want to work on their marriages - that's for whom I thought this site was orignally founded.

NPLH said:
Those who seek healing - those that want to work on their marriages - that's for whom I thought this site was orignally founded.

I couldn't agree more with you on this. It must be hard for the BS here to hear what we have to say at times, they project our words, thoughts, feelings, relationship with OP, onto their WS or OW. I can understand that, just as I sometimes project their's onto my MM or MM's BS. Yet, as a whole, we are all good for eachother in my opinion. Some days it hurts, other days it heals. No pain, no gain, isn't that what they say?

Don't be scared away NPLH. It takes a tough bird to stick around here. That is what we all are. WS, BS, OW/OM, whoever, we are all tough birdies and we need eachother in one way or another. I am convinced of it.

You're both right to a degree and I concede to a point. But I have to leave for work right now and can't take much time. Besides, I need to take time to think about this. I have received several e-mails from several former members who have left because of OW presence, so naturally, I empathize with them. I even wondered if Harley could once again "spin off" another sub-catagory of this site since it is so volitile and there is so much heartburn. After all, there are no other sites on this forum where there are so many OW's in comparison to the ratio of site size where they feel so comfortable to come here and make themselves to home. OW's get chased off GQ pretty quickly and are in the huge minority because Betrayeds are simply not comfortable with their presence. Most of the OW's here are also Betrayeds and are in marriages that are in some degree of restoration, I admit. I guess that is why there is slightly more tolerance. But the shift is disturbing to more than just me for sure. There are several Betrayeds who are gone and will stay gone simply because they know they cannot say what they want because the OW's will jump all over them and wars start. Maybe you don't feel or see yourself as a perp but many Betrayeds probably view you as a perp simply because you were an OW and are uncomfortable with judgments from OW's telling them that they are angry, resentful, bitter, hateful like they always do. Many Betrayeds probably see OW's here as 'their' OW or wonder if one of the OW's here are indeed their OW, making it less than safe to post. It HAS happened several times. It spoils things for the Betrayeds and takes away their support system because they know you really don't like us either but you want a place to vent and rage and you have basically taken over our little haven and made it yours, kind of like taking over our husbands...just taking again what we feel is ours. I am not saying that is right, and it is probably silly, but it is probably how some of them see this situation. There is no logic to emotions from trauma. I'm just guessing.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This site now officially belongs to all the OW's who have had children with a married man and justify their behavior, get insulted and defend themselves as if they are the victims when in reality they are the perps. There are so many of you here now that none of the regulars are here anymore. Congratulations on your success at chasing away those for whom this site was officially founded.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry you feel that way, Catnip.

A couple weeks ago I was really at my wit's end. I really don't have any friends I could talk to about my situation (not the kind of thing you want to bring up at ladies Bible study) and didn't want to hash out all of what I was feeling, thinking, and wondering about with my husband.

When I stumbled upon this website I thanked God because I believed He led me to an anonymous support group where I could come, learn, vent, gain insights, be understood, and maybe even give back now and again when I see that I might have a little something to offer.

I didn't come here to defend what I had done. But it was comforting to know that I was not alone. And God has used that fact to bring healing to me. Yes, I, as the OW, the perpetrator, still deserve to be healed.

Those who seek healing - those that want to work on their marriages - that's for whom I thought this site was orignally founded.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right and my statements are not directed at people who feel as you do and have described.

We have had a lot of problems in the past because we are two camps on two very different sides...the most volitile of camps imaginable. So there are some problems with the Betrayed leaving in droves, it seems. Since you are new and don't know the history of the site, this probably looks like a place that won't have the support you need, but that's not true. Regardless of which side of the fence, you will get the support you need. Just understand the nature of the beast of two polar opposites trying to occupy the same forum, censoring and chastising each others' thoughts and feelings.

I guess I need to be more specific, however, this issue needs to be addressed because so many people are leaving that need help. We are constantly accused of bytching and moaning and being hateful and bitter whenever we say anything anyone doesn't like, so it has unfortunately banished some of the Betrayeds into obscurity because it is too upsetting to deal with the wars when they have so much distress and stress in their lives to deal with. They are not getting the support they need either. It's a shame.

Catnip =^^=

All,
With all due respect, I'd say that in the 5 months that I've been here, there have been some battles due to triggers on either side, but the wars and departures seem to be caused by verbal abuse. Never is abusing someone justified for the choices or mistakes they have made in their lives.
There are some BS that feel it is their right to post and abuse and disrespect WS/OP/OW here and if you read the administrators message, this isn't a public forem where we can say any old thing we want to. Venting if its insulting or bashing the other camp isn't what this site is designed for. I believe that is how the trouble all began.
If someone leaves without getting the help they need, it is soley their responsiblity for making that choice. Some needy WS have left as I'm sure some unhealed BS's have as well. I can say honestly that in the time I've been here, rarely has an OW come along (twice I believe) just to gloat. In those instances, that person posts once or twice and departs. My evaluation is that that is the exception. The rest of us are here to tell our stories, and to seek help.
We have been told time and again to chill out, to relax, to not take it all so personally. I'd say that must work both ways.
The "resident" OW here are all WS/BS as well. If as Catnip points out, BS's feel we don't belong here, my only comment is that I'm sorry you all feel that way. But I won't take ownership for choices other than those that I make. If some decide to leave or not post, it is their choice.

I admit, I would not be very comfortable posting if my ex-MM BS started posting. I can see that getting ugly very quickly. I'm sure we would figure out who the other was. But for now, she doesn't know so I know none of you are her. I will cross that bridge if and when I hit up against it. I do recoginze your point of being insecure in the fact that your H's OW may be here posting and you become very vulnerable if that were the case.
I think we co-exist pretty well considering.

MY MY HAVENT WE ALL BEEN BUSY.

I am sorry I couldnt respond sooner, but my busy rack of kids kept me hoping from school to school this morning, four different schools to be exact so I had a busy morning. and yes my down time was when I woke up at three in the morning to make sure I set the alarm and I sat at the computer for a bit, because kids were alsleep.. You see when kids are asleep, I dont have to parent, just make sure they are safe, GREAT THING ABOUT NIGHT TIME.

I am not upset, Just answering your post. It seemed to bother you that I said I dont like his wife.. so I just told you why I said it.. to vent. thats all. doesnt matter to me if you read it or even post to me, I just was thinking and typing, I feel better so thats all that matters.

I am sorry you feel so bad about people who were once a wayward spouse being here .. would you be that angry if your husband wanted to come and sit and learn on here or would you welcome him.. just curious.
I am not going any where, I have been insulted , called names , and attacked on whims here and I choose to not leave.. I believe I can help some one and I know some here have helped me, and my husband to read different stories, and I think he is close to going for counceling.

If someone chooses not to post, that is too bad, If you notice, I didnt respond to lemon pies thread for the bs.. although I am a betrayed spouse. But I gave her the respect of avoiding her post..
Now I didnt interrupt someone elses thread I made a new one so I wouldnt offend those of you who get so upset by my post.

Your argument is getting old catnip.. very old, I am a wayard spouse and a betrayed spouse and I am trying to recover my marriage.. I am sorry if you feel that is a problem for other betrayed spouses. I dont know what to tell you.

I just read some of these posts.

I am aghast that some of you who are also WS do not believe they are the perpetrators. I cannot believe it.

In my case, my H and his OW are definately the perpetrators of their joint affair.They made the decision to meet, have sex over and over, make a relationship separate from my relationship with my H, and then, when pregnancy occurred, despite my H's objections to going through with the pregnancy and/or opting for adoption, the OW opted to keep the child. Then seek CS and hopefully my H as a daddy to him.

My H admits he is ashamed of his wrongoing and all he has done to ruin us. Never has he believed I created what he did. I don't say that our marriage was perfect, but he says he never stopped loving me and his true life always was with me, not the OW. Even the counselors we have seen, when H was in his angry, defensive phase, believed it was easier for him to be angry at C or me instead of himself for his obvious poor choices.

My H has to live with the most heinous thing he has ever done to anyone. To me. He admits he has hurt me beyond measure. THe OW has never admitted she has hurt me, at all.

Do I think she is a very hefty perpetrator?

You better believe it.Without thinking of me or my 3 kids, she slept with my H because she felt like it and wanted sex.Then fell in love with him and thought that was o.k

I do not feel sympathy for her, at all=like my H , she was an adult and made an adult choice to ruin innocent people's lives.

I would never have done that to her or him, even had I been horribly unhappy. I think hurting innocent people as an A does is almost criminal

This boils me.

criminal wow what a strong word..
sorry I cant repair my marriage if I spend all my time worried about om's marriage and how his wife is dealing with it. My only concern is my child.. Om isnt responsible for my marriage .. I am..He is responsible for his marriage he made a decision to pursue someone else and he spent the next few years developing a friendship with me, of his own free will.. I did the same to my marriage.. was I wrong yes, do I pay a price, yes I do and will the rest of my life, do I want him to go away... sometimes, and he would if I asked him to.. But I dont get to make things easy for me, just because I hate the choice we made to be open, I dont get to make that for my daughter.. it isnt fair.

I am not here to ask any one for sympathy I dont need it, I make my decisions and right or wrong I shall pay the price for them, but I am trying to make a better life and it is hard when you dont get support to do so, instead I get called names and attacked for my feelings, It happens allt he time, I am constantly told I shouldnt be here .. but no one has given me a valid reason why.
I am blunt , yes I say what I think, but if we all thought exactly the same and no one ever drifted from the same thought, life would be very boring..
we can all support each other, above all else we are all people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"I think hurting innocent people as an A does is almost criminal."

"ALMOST"...because it hurts innocent people.

That seems logical.

She did not say it "IS" criminal ... but was relaying her feelings of the severity of this injury.

Injury to others by a deliberate and reckless act .... "almost criminal" ?? Maybe. It's a matter of opinion. And the person who inflicted the injury certainly will be less likely to hold that opinion, do you agree?

Criminal is a strong word. "Almost criminal" is a comparrison to criminal.... The injury is so severe it compares to being victim of a crime.

This makes sense to me. And not only because I am a long-ago recovered BS ... but because of the human suffering I see every day in my clinic.

If people were kind to each other ... this injury from an A would not be a reality.

Take care.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

MO5,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am constantly told I shouldnt be here .. but no one has given me a valid reason why. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Allow me, if you will, to give a reason to you.
Without meaning it, you say things that insight BS here.
Such as how insecure OM/W is , that you're sure she calls while MM is out of town to see if you're home.

That you profess to know sooo much of how MM's personality is and how "she's" put up w/it for so long. Like you are the only one who knows things about him and you're coming off as ridiculing the W. As if she's a dummy for putting up with such.
Then from the other side of your mouth it's all about you and MM's D.

If he's so dawggone awful, why bother bringing your whole family into the guy's life?

For biology?

It seems you have a passive-aggressive relationship w/ your H, MM/W.
You've written several times how you wish they weren't involved in your life.

Maybe none of them should.

Maybe you and your H and still-to-young-to-remember D would be better off having seperate lives. Seperate married lives and quit mixing it all together for a D who will not gain a positive thing from the looks of things so early on.

As far as starting another riot goes...please remember what Steve Harley himself told me some months ago.

To regain the union of marriage after such a horrible ordeal, forego visitation. It's the best way for a marriage to heal w/o constant riff-raff and arguments.

Those are some reasons for you to leave.

A new person may feel too frightened to tell their honest feelings.

In early stages it's just too awful to even consider visitation.

Just wanted you to know what others feel...not about YOU, but ow in general.

So...post away if you must, just don't expect us to be happy about things you say of MM/W or MM.

Debi

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

As I said in my post, I stand by my choices; I will never allow anyone to hold me accountable for MM's decisions. He is a big boy and he doesn't do anything he doesn't want to. I was not writing from the perpective of my own M when I posted earlier. I am thinking in terms of my responsibility to the BS here as an OW, considering the post written by catnip was not about WS at all, but the OW. I am in no way a PERP in OM's marriage. No way will I accept that role. I gave OM many outs over years, none of which he ever took. Not one. No, I didn't leave him. I didn't want to leave him. That is my choice as his staying with me was solely his own.
I am a participant in my joint affair if you will. I was there of my own free will. Yes. I do not dispute that.
I am not going to rehash the whole issue of a woman having every basic human right to carry her child to term, give birth, and raise and love it. Despite what MM decided to do or tell his wife after the fact. We have all been there; no use debating it all over again.
Some WS stop being in love with their BS and some do not. I soppose its all dependent on their marriage. I personally was not in love with my H when I was with OM. I loved him but the feeling was not of being in love. It was a feeling of obligation at the time.
I don't know what more to say other than your H's A wasn't about you or the kids. I know in my A, we never, or I should say, rarely, discussed the M relationship or the BS. Very rarely to practically never.
If my H wants CS from OM, I would say it would have everything to do with OM and nothing to do with BS. If I ever decided to ask OM for support, it wouldn't have anything at all do do with his W and everything to do with my child. I don't foresee changing my mind about it but I am fully prepared to expect my H will not agree with me down the road. I don't understand your thinking.
There is no explicit decision to ruin anyones life when one enters into an A. If anything, it would be more like signing up to ruin your very own life. It is a painful situation for WS and OP as it is for BS. Why do you think getting out is so hard? We had only broken M's to return to.
Obviously there is alot of pain involved and with that, I will rest my case and leave the criminal issue alone.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Disclaimer: I am not using the word insecure as a triggering mechanism. It seems to be the theme of your post.
M05 is looking for valid reasons. Paranoia isn't valid. If you are too insecure to read about her situation, shouldn't you just pass all together?
Is there a rule that says that you have to read posts by WS/OW? She started her own thread and posted her situation. If you are afraid of what it might say, of what feelings it may stir up in you, why not skip over it?

opps - wrong key. sorry.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>