Miranda, Catnip, please....enough. You two are getting caught up in this nastiness and are oblivious to the collateral damage you are causing. I'm appealing to you both to lay this to rest. The immediate satisfaction you gain from this is minute and inconsequential, in the grand scheme of things. I know you are both better than this. Come on, now. Put the gloves down. Please?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Here is a post that I think you all should consider LaurieC

Please stop the bickering.

CM very little about what happens in these situations is rational. It is a sad and true fact. I wasn't blaming you, I was using this particular instance as an example of how people can take something and run with it. You are right it was your opinion and your feelings, pure and simple.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ohbratti1:
<strong>Miranda, Catnip, please....enough. You two are getting caught up in this nastiness and are oblivious to the collateral damage you are causing. I'm appealing to you both to lay this to rest. The immediate satisfaction you gain from this is minute and inconsequential, in the grand scheme of things. I know you are both better than this. Come on, now. Put the gloves down. Please?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you OB. I wished I had read through all 3 pages before I replied to any post. I didn't do that, started on pp. 1 and replied as I went along. I got caught up in the bashings.

I'm off to do something productive today. Planning a surprise for my H this weekend, have to refocus on that and think happy thoughts.

CM

Ohbratti

You are right and I concede. This is exhausting and futile.

I am often wrong and extremely flawed, but I don't feel wrong on this even if I might be. And I do feel particularly mean today because I am weary of the denial and lengthy excuses. It would be fun to just "get along" but I certainly don't see that ever happening here. They ain't like you. We spend so much time on trying to point out the obvious to no avail when other posters with issues are ignored.

I gotta go to work now.

Thanks, Ohbratti. The voice of reason in the chaos.

Catnip =^^=

Cmiranda, Interestingly, I started this post to you.

It has gone far afield from where I started-you--you too following the crowd of mean words and hostile words.

What is missing-your response to my initial post. Don't you see what is underlying my post? My worry about you and your recovery and your defensiveness in your actions of the A.

It was meant well, my post-but you instead have spent 3 pages in verbal sparring with a slew of posters.

I find that interesting-are you more interested in sparring than looking inward on how to improve yourself, your marriage, your life with H?

Just my opinion. I noticed I never got an answer from you. Something to think about.

I am mostly a lurker, I care very much for these women here who have had thier whole life turned upside down. I ignored this post for days until today (curiosity got the best of me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Cm, this is a marriage builders forum, until you have come clean with your husband and stop lying to him day in and day out you really shouldn't be here, you have nothing constructive to offer. I read your posts and they are full of sarcasm, snide remarks and sometimes just plain childish. You make excuses all day long. You constantly argue around what these ladies are trying to say to you, I know you get it because I do. Everything is still all about you and your om. If trying to win the argument is all you want, start your own forum and have your own rules, then you can argue your point all you want. The fact is, until you are honest with your husband, come clean with him and truly show remorse for what you have done, start really working, truly working on your marriage, you don't have a valid point and this isn't the place for you.

JMO.

Melissa

P.S. Ladies, you are all wonderful and teach me so much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (and no I am not a bs coming to the rescue)

Your questions and thoughts didn't go unnoticed. I do believe I answered you, if only a partial response. I was more or less just warding off the attackes I saw on the horizon at that time. If you haven't figured out, this isn't a real safe place for me to be completely honest in of my thoughts or feelings; particularily with these 2 threads going off into a ditch.
I thought about adding more but after being lashed out at, I thought it best to save my thoughts for mc and other friends who can give me some feedback off line. I apologize if you think that I was ignoring you, I didn't answer fully as I could have. It doesn't seem to work around here.
I am not angry with your post. I think in some way you are searching and I may possibly have some response to your question that you'd rather eat mud than have to ever ask your H ow. I can respect that. Maybe we can start a new thread when things cool off. I am not looking to avoid your inquiry but I'm not feeling much like opening up right now given this thread which shoudl be put to bed. ..May it rest in peace.

Ms,

Your plea is full of hypocracies.
This post is me defending a feeling I shared because I was asked to do so. Some posters truly didn't understand how I felt the way I do and others just attacked me and anyone who actually, hold on to your seat now msherri, agreeed with me or understood i was sharing a feeling, either was bashed because ow was in their title, or their posts ignored because they are a BS.
Funny how that works.
I'm not about to apologize or explain why my posts sound as they do. If you want to talk about sarcasim, why not address all the sarcasitic posts by BS's? Hmmm. No need to answer that, I know why.
I can't say I know of you other than I recongnize your handle, yet you jump in and preach to me about why I shoudln't be here.
Have you read the forem news lately? If not, go ahead and refresh yourself Ms MB.
I'm tired of this old opinion that if we WS/OW don't say what you all want to hear and we don't lie to fit in, then we should just go. Forget our marriages and heck, run back to our OM, who as another pointed out, may well be waiting in the wings. Now, that is true MB material.
No one ever answered my question. How estatic would you all be if I were your WS here, ending the A of my own accord and deciding my M was worth rebuilding and coming clean for? You all would be laying out the tea and crumpits.
Funny thing, I do have valid points. You talk about truth? If you can't take hearing it, how can you possibly preach for it?
I was asked a question for which I answered. If you can't take the truth, don't ask. If you can't take hearing the answer MSherri lurker, don't read it.

CM

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Hello- this is my 1st time posting on the pregnancy site. No one prob. knows me, I've only recently come to MB and have been posting in other forums. I'd just like to say that I am a BS and while I think BS here do stick together, I don't think it's hard to understand why. Unless you are a BS, it's impossible to understand the pain. However, in other forums on this website, BS and WW support each OTHER frequently. And even an OP can get support. I have posted support to a WS and she has posted back support to me. I think it's good to hear both sides......and while she and I certainly don't agree on everything, it's nice to dicuss and learn from our experiences. This is just an example. I think the difference is when a WS or the OP feels true remorse and really want to change their ways. if someone doesn't seem to show remorse then it doesn't make sense to me why they are here. I am not telling anyone to leave, and maybe we are misunderstanding or interpreting the posts. But I have read several posts, not just in this forum, by people who seem to just come to be validated for the hurt they've caused others. Please be understanding if the BS get angered by this! BTW the way i don't think any BS believes they have done no wrong in the marriage....I know I made mistakes, too. Can't we just forget all the arguing and start helping each other again??

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>BTDT

Maybe quitting the affair is not marriage building but it is a pretty good start. She can not heal her marriage if she is having an affair now can she...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said there is no credit for at least quitting the affair! I thank God that after over 6 years CMs affair has ended! But that is NOT really the start of MBing. The start would be to face the fear and confess the truth to her family. Just do it. DO IT AFRAID. To me, that would be a "pretty good start."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...No one ever answered my question. How estatic would you all be if I were your WS here, ending the A of my own accord and deciding my M was worth rebuilding and coming clean for?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have a WS, but I'll take a stab at answering this question... My guess is that the WS would be welcome but after receiving the advice from countless MBers on why telling the spouse is so important, and the WS keeps answering that they don't plan to confess and if they do decide to confess it will be when they are good and ready--I would have to say that MBers would be JUST AS frustrated with their WS as many seem to be with YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>
...You talk about truth? If you can't take hearing it, how can you possibly preach for it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are directing these statements to mshermi but I just felt like I could answer. I might be wrong, but I think that what we do speaks so much louder than what we say that we can't really hear what is being said. Your "truth" is that you are living in a lie and you think everything is just fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So what IS your definition of truth? Ya know??? No answers required, just thinking out loud here...

You have gotten A LOT of what I think has been objective and helpful advice and suggestions from BS's who have recovered from infidelity using MB concepts and it seems to have no influence. From this forum as well as GQII. I could be wrong, but just going by what exudes from your posts--now, and back when you first signed on 5 months ago.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong>I'd just like to say that I am a BS and while I think BS here do stick together, I don't think it's hard to understand why. Unless you are a BS, it's impossible to understand the pain. However, in other forums on this website, BS and WW support each OTHER frequently. And even an OP can get support. I have posted support to a WS and she has posted back support to me. I think it's good to hear both sides......and while she and I certainly don't agree on everything, it's nice to dicuss and learn from our experiences. This is just an example. I think the difference is when a WS or the OP feels true remorse and really want to change their ways. if someone doesn't seem to show remorse then it doesn't make sense to me why they are here. I am not telling anyone to leave, and maybe we are misunderstanding or interpreting the posts. But I have read several posts, not just in this forum, by people who seem to just come to be validated for the hurt they've caused others. Please be understanding if the BS get angered by this! BTW the way i don't think any BS believes they have done no wrong in the marriage....I know I made mistakes, too.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome, Libby

We have many WS/OW's here who are regular long time members and who are respected and held in very high regard. We all debate and discuss respectfully and we are kind with one another. But, we do have a renegade OW now and then, who when they aren't acting victimized, post long hysterical rants defending themselves and transferring their behavior and actions on us with comments like "when I am attacked so visciously" and "when I am called all these names and insulted"...when they themselves are the perps, when they themselves are the ones who are mean, sarcastic, rude, insulting and who fired the first shot and keeps on shooting. They sure squawk when they get a dose of their own medicine.

It is frustrating and sad that the nut is just too hard to crack. But, I am so glad we have the OP's here that we do. They are wonderful and kind and smart people with courage and honor and they make this site well-balanced and interesting.

Thanks for sharing, and don't be a stranger.

Catnip =^^=

Sometimes we just can't get through to some.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mshermi:
[QB]

Cm, this is a marriage builders forum, until you have come clean with your husband and stop lying to him day in and day out you really shouldn't be here, you have nothing constructive to offer. I read your posts and they are full of sarcasm, snide remarks and sometimes just plain childish. You make excuses all day long. You constantly argue around what these ladies are trying to say to you, I know you get it because I do. Everything is still all about you and your om. If trying to win the argument is all you want, start your own forum and have your own rules, then you can argue your point all you want. The fact is, until you are honest with your husband, come clean with him and truly show remorse for what you have done, start really working, truly working on your marriage, you don't have a valid point and this isn't the place for you.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's good to hear from you again, Mshermi. I've been meaning to contact you about CS laws now that I am settle and need your e-mail.

I knew it wouldn't be long before you would be attacked on your point of view, because it is the same POV we have all offered with the same results. But, it is still good to hear from you.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB][
You have gotten A LOT of what I think has been objective and helpful advice and suggestions from BS's who have recovered from infidelity using MB concepts and it seems to have no influence. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And so much of the good advice offered here, BTDT, has been from you, my friend.

I remember when you first came here and we gave you your baptism by fire. hahaha Not only did you survive it, but you becaem a beloved and respected sister. You "got it" and you understood right away. Your kindness and compassion was reciprocated and we have lived harmoniously ever since.

Personally, I am so glad you and Tigger are here and posting every day and wish Ohbratti were here more often and wonder what ever happened to a few of the others we were so fond of. When we don't hear, I just hope they have moved on and have found their peace and happiness.

You always give such compassionate and kind and thought-provoking posts, and this was just a good time to let you know.

Catnip =^^=

Libbie,

Thanks for you post. All that I ask of anyone, regardless of their "role" here, is not to ask me a question, put it out there, and then have a meltdown when my answer is not what they like or want to hear.

I am not incapable of learning, nor of coming around and changing my mind or my thought process, but the method used by the loud posters here on this thread and the "need suggestions" thread, is not the way to accomplish that. If in fact that was their intention at all.

I think you are right on, we need to go back to helping eachother.

It is time to end this thread, put down the shields and the swords and move on.

CM

Catnip,

I'd like to ask you to go back and read my posts on "need suggestions". I personally have not acted in the manner you describe below. That is the thread that I'm focused on as this one is just a bashing contest.

..But, we do have a renegade OW now and then, who when they aren't acting victimized, post long hysterical rants defending themselves and transferring their behavior and actions on us with comments like "when I am attacked so visciously" and "when I am called all these names and insulted"...when they themselves are the perps, when they themselves are the ones who are mean, sarcastic, rude, insulting and who fired the first shot and keeps on shooting. They sure squawk when they get a dose of their own medicine.

I responded to your post there in nice manner even though I feld offended to some degree. I ignored other posts that were plain mean. I answered questions that were asked of me without being rude, ugly, or sarcastic. (although, you are one of the most sarcastic posters on this board, I find it interesting that you are taking issue with that btw)

Anyway, as I said, if a person asks me a question, shouldn't I answer it honestly? I did not act as you are accusing. Why do the bs have to point fingers and act so offended and wounded all the time? I get hurt sometimes too but I don't stomp up and down and whine when it happens. At least, not anymore, (smile...?) and I've only been here for 5 months, not years and years.

It is my hope that this board can transform into a place where we all can post, old and new members alike, where we can feel safe to be honest. Where we can learn from one another about how to be better spouses and better human beings.

I have no courage at all to tell my H how I am really feeling. I look around here and I think, my Lord, if this is how perfect strangers respond to a simple thought, how would my H take it? I'm not going to gloss the truth when it finally does come out. I want to be sincere and gentle but I don't want to lie when asked a question. I also do not want to put myself in line to be tarred and feathered.

You all can't have it both ways. The BS asks a question and then everyone goes off deep end not because of rudeness or sarcasim. But because the truth stung. For that I am sorry. I didn't mean to hurt anyone with my answer about denial of om's BS or my responsibility to his M.

Please, lets move on now.

CM

((CM))

The truth "stung" me ... because I can see how much that "not-caring-about-her" position has hurt you ... and how much YOU need to begin to care for her for YOUR OWN RECOVERY. I am long past being hurt by remarks such as yours. I see your remark as a terrible hurt that you inflict on yourself.

Do you see that as well?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

By the way .... your remark about ruining your own life was .... well, true. Have you insight to why that happened? AND ... insight to what you can change NOW to resolve the problems created by your former poor choices? I care only for the poor choices you are making today ..... those are the things I wish and pray you will focus on. Todays choices are your power tools .....

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>((CM))

The truth "stung" me ... because I can see how much that "not-caring-about-her" position has hurt you ... and how much YOU need to begin to care for her for YOUR OWN RECOVERY. I am long past being hurt by remarks such as yours. I see your remark as a terrible hurt that you inflict on yourself.

Do you see that as well?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper,

I'm not sure. I should say that I don't know that I see how to apply caring for her to my recovery. I am not sure where it fits in and to what extent to take it. Do you mean empathy? Please explain more.

CM

Well ... if you applied caring for her from the very beginning .... you would not have been able to have the A with her H? That is virtually what you said. Denying her existence allowed you to love the MM, right? So ..... here you are 61/2 years later , stuck thinking the same script.

If you don't want to hurt yourself over and over again, look at the thoughts that you originally had that allowed you to "sign up to ruin my very own life."

Recovery means recovery of what is best about you.

Not caring is not what is best about you.

I think you want to care ... but you don't know where to begin.

Build your empathy. Start with that.

You "greatest sin" (if you'll excuse that expression for a minute) .... Your greatest sin is not that you fell in love with the MM .... but that you denied the love you should have felt for his wife .... remember Christ said we are to love one another ... and that especially means the ones who are least deserving of our love.

And ... if you cannot understand what type of love I'm talking about ... it's agape love.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Okay, I start with empathy. That seems easy enough. But I am stuck.
I do feel sorry and guilty now that I am a mother. I see things that MM did, because of me, that hurt her. I see it now because as I look back, she was home with 2 small children while all this was going on. I see it because I am raising a baby, there are many many times when I am stressed, that I think back on those days and wonder if it was like this for her, alone without him because I was with him or because he was distracted from his home life. Is this where I should start? Or do I fast forward to today? I don't know how to empathize or where to start I guess. When I feel this way, I normally change my thought process to thinking (please no one jump on me) why should I carry the burden of MM choices? This is where I turn my back on my guilt because it feels like I'm being his doormat once again.

I always felt like the wounded on in my R with him. I also felt that way with my H when he drank. Maybe I'm sticking myself in the victim role and don't know how to stop.

Can you understand what I am trying to explain?

I can start with empathy if I know how to use it.

CM

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>