I am not offended, I know what your saying and agree and yes I have considered taking his butt to court and calling his bluff.. But then My daughter will not be with us, on holidays and she will be away from me in the summer, and she will be taken around what ever kind of people they want to take her around and it wont matter how they act and they will use daughter as a punishment for me, his wife has proven that as well as OM. so i GIVE ON SMALL STUFF, BECAUSE THE BIG STUFF IS STILL LEFT IN MY HANDS, BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO LOSE MORE MONEY... Keeps us out of court, but who wins, they will have daughter have the time, till it starts interfering in there schedule and My daughter will be with out her brothers and sisters half the time.. I do not want that, it scares the hell out of me.. I am sure that doesnt sound resonable to some on here. and perhaps it isnt, but I love my daughter and I dont want her to be gone so much , she is so little and she cant talk and tell me if something is wrong. I dont know if I can do that and before every one starts screaming how unfair I am, think of your own babies and tell me how pleased you are or would be sending them away all the time.

If I take him to court he will consider that a personal attack and come out fighting with full force and daughter will recieve most of it, because it will cause friction and crap when daughter is with them.

yes om suggested looking at husband email, but husband wrote it all by his little self, this is not new behavior to husband, and this is the same behavior he had all those many years ago, while his wife was home caring for his children in a foreign country. The same wife, who would have never cheated on him and was devistated to find out this was a pattern for him.

OM and his wife are fighting all the time and yes it seems this has turned into a game for him, when he wants to punish her , he uses me, but what do I gaing by getting involved, I end up in a battle with his wife, who I dont want to battle with and dont want to spend my time talking about her dysfunctional husband or life, as we can all see I have my own problems.
By the way If I give him that court order then I truly give him all control dont I, Whole lot easier to make demandds when you have a court order with you..... at the moment legally husband is her father and i can keep him at bay.
so I can take om to court and cause a huge battle with our families and then make exchanges in heated silence or snide remarks, and have daughter feel bad every time she goes and risk his wife talking badly about daughters family when she is there, or try and keep my sanity and remain friendly and try and stay out of the crossfire.. I cant tell you which is better, I can only tell you that my children mean the world to me, and I do not want this to be another situation where the parents are fighting all the time and the children feel hurt and confused. I am trying to make the best out of a bad situation.
I have considered all of these things and dont have any answers..I have even considered telling his wife what he is really up to and showing her proof to back it up, I am not sure it would do any one any good, because then I am considered just trying to wreck his marriage and frankly I think he can do that well enough on his own. Isnt that what all the wives would think on here if a former ow came to them with lies of the husband.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> of course they would.

mo5,,,,, again please don't take any of this the wrong way but i must disagree with you on some of the points in your last post.

1- if you go to court it DOES NOT give om any power. in fact it most likely gives you more. there will be no way in hell the courts would take your d away from her mother. you are a very caring and protective woman with all your kids. there is no abuse and you are a very attentive mom.

2- it is not writen anywhere that i know of that court has to be hostile. why can't you just explain to om that the way things are now is not good for you. and in that same light if you are not doing well then your d will not be doing well as children have that way of knowing and feeling your tensions. ( this is the case with grace as om has been contacted about cs and fh is very tense right now.) just simply explain that you are not looking for more money or trying to cut his time with your d merely trying to get something down on paper so you know where everyone stands. tell him you are not looking and do not want any battles. just clear understanding through mediation.

3- you should be able to make it very clear where you stand in relation to any extra CHECKING IN on you by om while h is away. if you don't want that kind of relationship with him say in very clearly to him so there is no miss understanding. something like although you appreciate his concern for you and d, you are quite capable of taking care of yourself and that for the best of your marriage and his you feel that any unnecessary visits by him are out of order. and please don't use the just checking on d line to be here when you are unwanted.

mo5,,,,, again please don't take any of this the wrong way but i must disagree with you on some of the points in your last post.

1- if you go to court it DOES NOT give om any power. in fact it most likely gives you more. there will be no way in hell the courts would take your d away from her mother. you are a very caring and protective woman with all your kids. there is no abuse and you are a very attentive mom.

2- it is not writen anywhere that i know of that court has to be hostile. why can't you just explain to om that the way things are now is not good for you. and in that same light if you are not doing well then your d will not be doing well as children have that way of knowing and feeling your tensions. ( this is the case with grace as om has been contacted about cs and fh is very tense right now.) just simply explain that you are not looking for more money or trying to cut his time with your d merely trying to get something down on paper so you know where everyone stands. tell him you are not looking and do not want any battles. just clear understanding through mediation.

3- you should be able to make it very clear where you stand in relation to any extra CHECKING IN on you by om while h is away. if you don't want that kind of relationship with him say in very clearly to him so there is no miss understanding. something like although you appreciate his concern for you and d, you are quite capable of taking care of yourself and that for the best of your marriage and his you feel that any unnecessary visits by him are out of order. and please don't use the just checking on d line to be here when you are unwanted.

Mom of five, I have read many of your posts, and I hope you don't take offense at what I say.

Perhaps it is just my perspective, but your involvement with OM"s family,w ife, kids, etc seems a bit too cozy to me. It may be good for your joint child, but even that I am not convinved. YOu all know too much of each others' lives to be helpful to your family life and marriages. Over and over, I see very blended boundaries between you, OM's family,wife, OM, and your family, including your other kids and your husband. I cannot imagine how this can be good for your marriage, OM"s marriage, and most of all, your family life.

I know you believe being nice to all involved is overall to best your daughter, but being overly involved is not . I cannot imagine why OM feels he should check up on you while your H is out of town.

I think you all need to set some limits and boundaries-ie. OM does no checking while H out of town, OM has no contact with H while at job, you and he stop talking daily unless your H and his wife are in attendance or on phone, etc.

I think this all must stop, if you want a healthy life for you and your family.

JMHO.

mo5,,, sorry about the double / double post. i thought i was going to lose my post and just started clicking buttons and i don't know how to edit so now we have 2. i would like to mention a couple of other factors also.

4- i don't think that om's w would hurt your d in any way. from what i have read from your past posts she is very loving and caring toward her. you have said before that she calls just to talk about your d. this seems to be a woman who is also in a very difficult marital relationship but has but that anger aside in the best intererst of your d. ( i would never hurt grace in any way and if me and fh were to divorce i would request visits with grace as she is so loved by her brothers and sisters (my children) that it wouldn't seem fair for them to talk of going boating, or to disneyland, etc and make her feel left out.)

5- the relationship between you and om's w is one like no other i know of. you have all been so open to each other except om to his own w. you should not allow that openness to be jeparadized by om's lies. i believe that by your silence you are making yourself look as if you are part of the whole mess should tings come to light. which they always do. again give your words some thought beforehand so as not to sound vindictive in any way and simply point out that you have nothing to gain by telling her. i feel she will understand. heck she may already know this is going on anyway.

6- you really should stop setting yourself to be the whipping post for these arogant jerks that have surrounded you.

fh felt much as you do about om going to court and taking baby away, om calling shots, making demands, etc.. the courts will prtect the mother/baby relationship wwhenever possible. you are the one who is in control here not om. all you need to do is take it. be confident in yourself.

sorry just one more note. i to think you should rethink your position on the overly coziness of both families. it is hard enough for non batt;ing divorced parents to co-parent and manage new relationships. now you are trying to rebuild your m and parent a d and existing family while trying to keep piece in your family and that of the om. seems a certain recipe for disaster. if either m has problems both m's have problems. i think that you should start to cut some of the closeness between the 2 families. and not trying to sound cold but you had to understand that having om involved in d life would eventually mean that she would be spending time away from you. fh and i are starting that process now with her om wanting to have a say in grace's life. fact is he does not. he can't chose last name, he can't chose baby sitter, he can't have over night visits right away, he can't chose to take her when he wants. and in fact if he means what he has told fh about only wanting what is best for grace then he will pay his child support and stay out of her life as much as possible. if he truly cared for her he would not add the conflict of a second family or the tramatic experiences that grace will go through when she is picked up and taken away from her security, her home. that is where he could finally step up and become a man instead of seeing a child because he wants something for his buck. anyhow no more on my situation i can address that on another post.

UNHAPPY WIFE,
i KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AND THATS FINE YOU ARE ENTITTLED TO AN OPINION, i DO NOT INVOLVE MY SELF IN OM'S LIFE WITH HIS WIFE AND HIS CHILDREN, THEY HAVE INVOLVED THEMSELVES IN OUR LIVES, YOU FORGET i WAS CONTENT TO WALK AWAY AND LET IT BE. oops sorry caps

We do know too much of each others lives, but not because we are having dinner every night, but because om and I spent many many years together and know every thing aout the other.. I dont think those things change just because we are not involved any more, we still know the other person .

also Husband can not stay away from om at the new job, OM got the interview for him and he will be responsible for some of the training, but once that is over, they will very seldom see each other, as om works in town where we live and husbands job is three hours away.

POPS, Thats ok, a double post makes me think twice haha.. OM sees me taking him to court as me trying to start a battle,and he has told me that if I do this he will see this as a hostile move on my part and I will not want to be on the receiving end of that. probably a bluff, But I do know if I go to court, I will have to give up my daughter more times than I want, at the moment he ask me first and if I say no she doesnt really feel good, he says ok no problem, but I also dont usually say NO to him about visits, But we keep them to one night or afternoon,If daughter crys when they pick her up, he doesnt take her away sad, he waits and if she doesnt stop he kisses her goodnight and leaves her home with me. if I go to court they may say, he gets her 1st 3rd and fith of every weekend, although I know he will not be around that many weekends, as he goes out of town alot, what if he see this as a threat and makes my life miserable usung my sweet baby to do so. Look at the example his daughter and wife pulled at the b day party... They had arranged what they would allow my daughter to take home with her when she left, ahead of them, but no one informed me...
OM is busy playing both sides of the fence and I am growing weary I would love to tell her and his step daughter exactly what he is really like, and what he is up to, but I dont believe it would do many any good, they know the way to hurt me is through my children.
In reality I know the court will be on my side, but they also will expect a fair and resonable amount of time and as om informed me if I do that I will have no control over where he leaves daughter or what they do with her. so if he wanted to pick her up and dump her at this step daughters house that hates me so much, he could do that and what could I say.. I dont want my baby to go through stuff like that and I dont want to worry over her all weekend long and certainly not 5 weeks in the summer with out her mama. I need to sit down with a lawyer and see what can be done I guess, I like full house, have so many of those worries.
I dont think om's wife will hurt daughter, but she is so jelous of me, she sometimes uses daughter to try and punish me, and he seems to think she is a basket case waiting to happen, I know he is causing this and by a round about way making it appear as if I am the cause, but I DONT WANT TO INTERFERE IN THE relationship they have, because it would appear that I was involving my self in their life, [as unhappy wife thinks] and I do not want to be involved in what goes on behind close doors.

om will use daughter for his benefit if he has to pay money, that is the way their mind works it is about money first everything else later.
you should know we arnt cozy in the respect that we all do things together all the time, but we do try and all be civil at all times, and even though this is all going on, we still are polite and respectful in public and in front of daughter..

yes I know letting him be involved meant she would be away some, I am not a complete idiot, but as a mommy I also know that is a hard thing to do and is very unsettling at times, most times it is ok, but sometimes it is hard.
I just vent and scream, but In reality when the time comes and daughter goes, I am encouraging for her and make sure she knows its ok, and she will have a great time.

But saying what is on my mind is sorta therapy for me, then when I am put in a position I handle it better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

By the way I already informed them both I was capable of taking care of my self and children while husband is away, I was a military wife, we are used to taking care of things our selves it goes with the territory. I dont think that will be a problem..

OM calls this house any time he wants to check on daughter, he doesnt always talk to me, sometimes it is my husband, depends on who is home. twice a day, no he needs to stop that and I have told him so.. I also told him he needs to make sure if he stops by he needs to do so when my husband is home, he laughs and says I must be tempted, if I am that weak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
arrogence a big part of his world. I will sit with husband tonight and see if we can change some of the problems we seem to be having.

you are right protecting his lies, makes me look guilty as well, How ever husband and I both agree it is none of my business and I should stay out of it.

His wife once wrote me a nasty email about how unfair I was not to let her husband see daughter before she was a year that he had no Idea, well they all new including her since I was three months pregnant, I told her that wasnt true and her husband had seen daughter for over a year once a week behind her back till I told him he had to come forward... she didnt believe me and continued to feel she was right because this is what he told her.. Now I have proof, I have emails and such talking about visits and daughter, I even have a few pics of daughter younger than when she and he met daughter together... But what would I be solving, what she thinks of me isnt the end of the world, I couldnt change her opinion from the damage that is already done, but I would bet she would see it as another attack on her from me. so do I show them or ignore it and walked away, If I showed her do you think I will still get cooperation from her for my daughter.. I am guessing no.... These are just my thoughts and I know not all will agree with me, But I am doing the best I can.
I dont feel I can tell her these things about him with out it coming out mean and I dont want that. If I show proof then I would have to send emails, to her that he wrote things about her.. I think I owuld be causing more pain than helping my self.

mo5,,,,, i in no way meant to imply you were an idiot. sorry if i came across that way. i hope you and h can come up with some solutions and also that he doesn't fall back into his old patern of just having some fun. he should appreciate what a lucky man he is to have you as his w. and i can understand that sometimes we have to eat a little crap so we don't have to eat the whole bowl.

oh I know you didnt mean that pops haha I was teasing ....

Mom -
Can you not explain to your H that you feel OM is trying to manipulate your M. I'd pull out all stops on the Policy of Radical Honesty with this one. It sounds like the OM is having way too much fun pawning everyone around like chess pieces. He may very well have issues in his own M and is using you & your H as a toy to upset his wife. No matter what kind of a relationship you have for your D it is still a bitter pill for his W I'm sure. Which would explain why it makes it so easy for his W to be nasty with you.

Also - if you have Caller ID, I'd let my H answer all calls from the OM. There should be no need for you to have contact with him especially if he is playing these little mind games. Also, I would only call OM's W to talk about your D. If you have to e-mail her to avoid contact with him - do it. If not eventually this will strain your M. And with your H now being out of town a lot, there is no need to even assume the appearance of guilt. Not to say you would be tempted, but even your H might assume one of the nights he was away that something was rekindled.

I can't speak on the court decision as I know you are torn on this one. I think Pops gave some very good advice, but I would start with severing some of the contact with OM if you don't feel comfortable jumping right into a courtroom.

Hope this helps - Vee

Mom -
Can you not explain to your H that you feel OM is trying to manipulate your M. I'd pull out all stops on the Policy of Radical Honesty with this one. It sounds like the OM is having way too much fun pawning everyone around like chess pieces. He may very well have issues in his own M and is using you & your H as a toy to upset his wife. No matter what kind of a relationship you have for your D it is still a bitter pill for his W I'm sure. Which would explain why it makes it so easy for his W to be nasty with you.

Also - if you have Caller ID, I'd let my H answer all calls from the OM. There should be no need for you to have contact with him especially if he is playing these little mind games. Also, I would only call OM's W to talk about your D. If you have to e-mail her to avoid contact with him - do it. If not eventually this will strain your M. And with your H now being out of town a lot, there is no need to even assume the appearance of guilt. Not to say you would be tempted, but even your H might assume one of the nights he was away that something was rekindled.

I can't speak on the court decision as I know you are torn on this one. I think Pops gave some very good advice, but I would start with severing some of the contact with OM if you don't feel comfortable jumping right into a courtroom.

Hope this helps - Vee

Thanks vee, but although you dont know my whole story, she is not nasty all the time, we just have our moments... in fact most of the time she and I do very well together[considering]just once in a while we have a bad day or moment.
OM is always using people in that way, it is just how he is, and yes I have told husband this, but he doesnt agree with me, and we dont practice the mb stuff together, just me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I dont believe he and i have no reason to communicate, he is my daughters father and I will always communicate in a civil way about my daughter, as a parent I feel I have to do so.
I can handle that part, I just dont like the petty stuff that occurs once in a while. I also do not contact om's wife for any thing, if I do she feels the need to constantly talk with me and i am not intrested in doing that. I send a little note once in a great while, because they ask me to and when I do I address his wife first and then him, same as I do in when we are all together.

I dont expect this woman to like me, why would she!? What I do expect if she is going to be involved with my daughter that she respect my wishes as daughters mother and that she ask her own child to respect those wishes as well, since om has said he agrees with my wishes and that we came up with these things together. My wishes are simple, No disrespecting judgements in front of the baby,
NO childish behaviors such as I bought this and you cant have it at your mothers house, or I bought this and you cant have at your fathers house.. Treat daughter with love and respect and know that she loves her mommy and other daddy just as much and respect the childs wishes about that.. same rule goes for all parties and I dont see how these are bad rules or difficult to follow. OM agrees with them all and most of the time backs them up, but that depends on how much his wife gripes, then he takes my side and says he is sorry and i am guessing in his house he takes her side to keep peace part of the time, the rest of the time, he argues with wife over this stuff.

However raising my daughter does not change on who I am trying to please, I raise all my children the same way and it is difficult now that she is around people who do things differently. They dont have unconditional love in their family it comes and goes, I dont want daughter to learn that. His wife has alienated him from his two children he has from his first marriage and I see her pulling little stunts with me, She wants him to only love her daughter and no one else, They have no children together.
I have watched this behavior for years and I wouldnt never want to be in the position I am in, but hindsight 20/20 <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Should have thought about that before, so I figure I am doomed to deal with it. I will find away, I am just not sure how.

Unfortunately I feel my boiling point coming near, so I hope I remain calm and do the right thing. I do not want to be involved in more garbage with them, so I try and remain out of it..
No I dont think husband thinks I will rekindle, but he is to busy playing himself to notice any way.

I shall just pray and hope I do what is best for my child, because it is her life that will be so greatly affected by this mess. My husband AND i HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS WE HAD YEARS AGO MINYS A FEW, BUT WE DONT ARGUE OVER OM OR DAUGHTER AT ALL. OOPS SORRY THOSE DARN CAPS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> NOT YELLING.

Mof5, you are in a difficult position.
Here are the websites I was thinking of, the first Peggy Vaughn's (wife of former serial adulterer) and the second describes the types of affairs, even a quiz to take:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/look.html

http://www.affairs-help.com/

Mom,
You know I am fond of you, but here is my input.
This constant daily contact with OM has to stop. It is definately putting a strain on your marriage, and you are definately a threat to MMW.
You must all learn to live with a co-parent arrangement, and as it was put to me by my C it is almost a business arrangement. No personal chit chat, just setting down ground rules on when and what type of information should be exchanged. You don't need to have court orders to set up visitation, it can be scheduled monthly by the four of you, maybe meeting at a neutral site. Of course being informal arrangement, changes can be made.
Also if you both have access to a computer, then correspondence should be made through emails, that way there is no personal contact between you and MM, and MMW will have access to all communication between you.
There is no reason in the world that you and MM should be having phone calls daily, it is not fair to either of your spouses. I can relate totally to MMW. That was the major cause of my H's and my battles. The lack of respect for boundries while I was trying to mend our marriage. In my case it was the OW who contantly overstepped boundries, but my H did not want to cause any waves, plus the fact that he still had feelings for her. When she became upset, she took visitation away as a punishment. I feel that is why we are now separated, the lack of respect for the me, the BS. The contant contact between H and OW.
I see both you and OM in this type of situation, you not wanting to make waves, but you have to get some backbone and stand up to this man now before it's too late. Let your H see that he is first and most important in your life and not let the OM rule your life.

Mom, you know how fond of you I am, so please don't take offense to this ok? I am worried about you.

Tina

I am not offended tina, Not at all. You have been the driving force behind My staying away believe it or not, I feel for your situation and know how hard life is for you at this moment and i will not and do not want to be the reason for that pain. I am not going to be involved with him again, and in fact have been reminded by a certain MBer How manipulative om is. I have my feet on the ground.

However my biggest fear to over come is my daughter, I have never been divorced and have never had to send my children to any one, other than when my husband and I were seperated once. I like knowing she is ok, and I like hearing how her visit went. It means alot to me and i dont want to send my daughter to a stranger every other week. Too be honest with you I am afraid and I have never been more afraid of anything in my life. I have always provided all the care for my children and I am one of those moms who does every thing for and with . If I dont put her first who the heck is going to. It is my duty to make sure she is fine and If I fail her I will never forgive my self. I know some of you dont understand that..

In the back of my mind I always have a picture of these people who wanted nothing to do with her, except abort her or give her up for adoption, and now I have people claiming they love her with all their heart, as long as it is done their way... On one hand i have him saying his wife is taking all kinds of pills and ranting and raving every day about me, and on the other hand when she comes to see daughter she is calm cool and collected,One week she is bugging the heck out of me and the next she leaves me alone and is having a breakdown, I understand, However I am not the one contacting them in any way other than an occasional update. Through email to their home for both of them. How do I know if and when this will burst and my daughter will pay the price... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> at this point maybe I should join her in a rubber room. Because I feel the same way, she feels her husband is still in love with me and that I am him and that I want to take him away... I feel like they are trying to take my baby even though in reality that isnt happening to either one of us.

these are just thoughts that pass... so now you see I am more confused than ever, and I hate that, because I am usually pretty darn sure of what I want and how to make it happen. I am not this time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . Tina I consider you a friend and I am not offended I do see parrallels in our lives although on oposite ends and I have been greatful for your help and concern . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

By the way I have days when I am so angry I could scream, But I owuld never ever use my daughter to fix that. My feelings are seperate and she is free to love om and his wife with out me telling her anything, I can not and will not put my feelings on her, I am a grown up, this is not her doing and she shouldnt have to bare the burden.

Mom,
Glad you are not offended.
I completely relate to you on the full care of your children, as I stayed at home with our two kids, believe it or not, other than H's parents, they never had a babysitter, that is until they were older and OW stayed with them.
I was the ultimate overprotective mother, and even at 20 and 23, I still worry about them, and talk to them everyday.
I can't be too bad if son comes home from college every weekend by his choice. He is even taking me shopping to chicago this weekend, what a sweetheat.

Tina

My OLDER children had never had a sitter, I have always felt no one can take better care of them than me... this is something we dont agree on, OM thinks she should be put in day care, so I wont have so much work, what he doesnt get is, it isnt work, I truly find pleasure in being her mommy.