CM

I knew I could count on you to come out of retirement with indignation at my choice of words and anger.

Regardless, my outrage is at the horrible treatment Tina is receiving from her husband and I maintain my position. I maintain the OW is a whore and I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. Never have. I am confused why this is a problem to you. It is just my position.

I am sorry if you have been offended and you think my choice of words is "not nice" but what this woman has done and how Tina's husband is treating her is "not nice".

I guess I'll never understand some people's difficulty at accpting another point of view or someone's feelings about someone or something. It just doesn't bother me when people have differing opinions other than mine and it doesn't bother me how they express them. It doesn't even bother me if they call my husband's XOW a whore, because she is. To refute that is to deny the obvious.

It's just a word, CM, a legitimate word with a definition in the dictionary, which legitimizes it as an expressive way to describe someone. It does carry a lot of impact, because it is supposed to. The word whore makes everyone cringe, even me.

I don't know what you think you will prove by delving into my old posts. I am not denying or ashamed of anything I have ever said. If you just want to make a case that I am vocal or use descriptive words or that I am angry, I can't and won't deny it or apologize for it and it is standard record anyway. So what's your point?

Look, CM, I have come to really, really like you a lot but you just have to understand that these rages are cyclical and right now I am really smoked. I am liable to say just about anything. I am on the edge and I know it. When I get like this all I do is ruminiate about injustices and good people being crushed and it just sends me over the edge. I happen to know what Tina's husband has said and done to her and it makes me crazy. I probably should have tempered my words a bit but ONLY because I very well might have offended HER, and only her. I am only concerned about Tina and really don't care about what anyone else thinks right now.

Catnip =^^=

Tina,

I'm so sorry for your loss and for the fact that your H's response is making this even more painful. Someday Tina,,someday he'll wake up and be sooo sorry for his actions.

Catnip,

You have no idea how much truth there is to your comment..
"People like me (the intolerant) are necessary, believe it or not, because if people like me didn't openly say what most people think, we would be held emotionally hostage by people (like you?) who "scold" others for their point of view."

When I found MB, in 1998, it was a little over a month after discovery of my H's EMR. Not knowing about MB or MB principles, I muddled through Dday and the beginning of recovery the best way we could. I found MB after finding I was having difficulty dealing with the anger, the hurt and the pain. My first posts (under a different name,,pre MB major crash)all related to that pain and anger. The responses, while heart-felt and compassionate, were all about "getting past it,,letting go,,forgiveness",,and so on. I wasn't ready to hear that. I couldn't do it. I wondered if something else was seriously wrong with me that I just couldn't do these things.

One poster (some of you may remember him) was very angry. He understood my rage. He validated my pain. He let me know I wasn't alone. I wasn't completely crazy. Yes, he was crass, out-spoken, sometimes seemingly mean and nasty but I identified with his wrath. He was eventually run off the board. I often wonder about him and pray he has healed.

I didn't post alot after that. I sure didn't want to get run off after witnessing what happened to him. While still following MB principles and very occasionally posting, I chose to deal with my rage through personal emails with a close MB friend. Friend that she is, she listened to my rants and vents until I worked through them (or am I still working through them?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

The MB posters are far more tolerate now of the differing outlooks and opinions than they used to be. And, IMHO, that's a good thing. We are all at different stages, with varying circumstances. We all need help and someone we can idenitify with.

And I, for one, think you are an important voice here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nerlycrzy

Thanks for validating me. I appreciate that kind of support from an old timer.

I am well aware that I am almost always seething, and anger is always just under the surface. I go for months happy and serene and then BAM, just like that, I read something that just tears at my heart and I am off and running. This time of year doesn't help either.

Some have suggested Anger Management (I manage my anger just fine and appropriately) and some have suggested counseling (hahaha) but I maintain I am probably healthier than most because I do not contain my rage or let it simmer. I have found I am often healthier than the couselors I have spoken with...especially that quack who my husband sees.

The nice thing about it is that everyone knows where I stand and trusts me because I don't lead them around with soothing words unless the moment prescribes tenderness.

What is wrong with anger anyway? Unless it is dangerous or destructive to someone, I find it refreshing to hear soemone vent their rage because when they are finished, they feel oh so much better and a little stronger ready to face tomorrow. At least, I do. It inspires action, too.

I think an unflattering descriptive word is cathartic as well. I ALWAYS feel great after I run through a screaming list of the OW's uncomely flaws...always in my car alone or in the shower and never, ever in front of my husband. He feels bad enough about it anyway. We all have to stop walking on eggshells and allow everyone the freedom to express themselves.

It's too bad your friend wasn't able to stick around and I too hope he has found his peace. I can't believe they actually ran him off the board because most everyone puts up with me. When I first came to MB in mid-99, I spouted and spewed and had such serious depression, I said horrible, horrible things. For some reason, everyone was tolerant of me and I found a good balance of validation for my anger and a lot of compassion for my pain. No one reprimanded me for the terrible things I said then and find it interesting that I get a lot of flack now on this site. But that's OK.

I have found forgiveness in my own marriage but then my husband is so incredibly sweet and so, so sorry, he can't do enough to make things right. My anger is no longer at him, but at her. I'm an old dog who finds it difficult to learn new tricks and forgiving the OW is something that can't happen until the support issue is resolved to something fair and reasonable and arrears are adjusted. For me, the financial suffering is the worst next to the fact there is a child that shouldn't be here, at least with my husband as the father. It could have been prevented with that first phone call to her when I pleaded with her not to see him again...after all, they had just met. I begged her not to see him, explained to her he was very, very ill and not himself and how much I loved him and how badly I wanted to save my marriage. And she just didn't care. She didn't care. And that to me, is unforgivable.

Because she just didn't care and went ahead anyway and deliberately got pregnant, not caring how this would effect me, our family, my husband or our lives FOREVER, is the most supremely selfish act I have ever witnessed, is something so incredibly evil and rotten that when I see others suffering this kind of pain, I see red.

This kind of disregard for others is something that is so wretched, I find it curious that this is washed over on this site and almost accepted yet when we use a word like "whore"..."Oh my God! How could you say such a thing!" is laughable at best to me. What is worse? Using a word like "whore" or commiting the most heinous act possible that effects scores of lives and ruins families?

I envy those who are filled with love and forgiveness and have their niche close to God but I maintain there are those of us who are and will continue to be a work in progress and we have our place, too...to remind us that the circumstances of our being is a hideous place to be and there are those who should be held acountable for their non-caring behavior. I'm glad to be a lion and find it uncomfortable to be a lamb.

I am so glad you had a good friend you could open up to and express yourself and not be criticized for it. I'm sure it empowered you to get through your pain and face your days and facilitated your healing. My hope is that Tina will gain the strength she needs to enter into a flawless and super strong Plan B. The pain is so acute right now that I think she is having trouble moving to the next stage. Maybe she just needs to sit where she is right now and just adjust to what is happening. I know she doesn't have much of a support system which worries me.

Anyway, Nerlycrzy, I'm glad you popped in, it is so good to hear from you...do you spend most your time on GQ? I always wonder about Lone Star and whatever became of him. I loved reading his posts. He always had such great insight.

Love

Catnip =^^=

I don't really hang out on any particular board anymore but do regularly read on GQII, Recovery and this one, P/C. I read daily (post seldom) but there are sooo many new posters all the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , not the small group that there originally was, that it's almost impossible to keep up with all the stories. And sooo much pain.

I also have found forgiveness for the OW impossible even after several years of recovery. Being old, from the "hippie, peace and love" generation, you'd think I could round up some flowers for my hair, some old Beatle albums,,meditate and get over it, huh. Not so,,not for me. I should be (and am) thankful that among my H's poor choices he chose a woman too old to have a child. Older than both of us,( and that's REALLY old!!LOL) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ,,or we'd be dealing with the OC issues also.

I wish we could all have the peace some seem to have found. But sometimes I wonder,,,have they REALLY???..........

Hi Tina
I'm so sorry about your lost. I'm also sorry your H insist on you taking a back seat, like so many of our H and families have us do that goes along with adultry.

You know all my life, I had to take a back seat. I thought for once in my life I would be reconized loved and appreciated, but I find myself taking a backseat again.

This post hit home for me, I had to ask myself a question if my H past away would I even be mention in the orbit.

Not trying to hijack your post Tina but your post just hit home for me. It's bad enough you have to take a back seat to OW but OC that's a bit too much.

If my H passed, I wouldn't go to the funeral because of the humiliation I would feel. My H family is surrounded by adultry this would be the perfect side show for them.

I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of humiliating me anymore, enough is enough. I have this pain in my stomach, just reading this post and my own pain, this hurts it makes you so angry.

I just wonder sometimes is there really a God to allow all this pain and the people that rejoice in your pain, that is painful.

My prayers are with everyone here that we overcome.

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>

TROUSLEY and a warning to others who post on this board:

I believe you are my OW, posting now with another posted name. I know you read MB and believe you know who I am by what I post here. Just to set the record straight, I am not. You know nothing about me. You think you know me by what my H has said about me, by what I post here. You know nothing about me. He too lied about things about me and us. Just as you lied.Did you really think your affair with him was about honesty and love?

Nonetheless,I know a lot about you. I know you do things that hurt many and wound many. I know you thought not of hurting me or my kids or my family or even my H. Yuur actions were all about you.

You can read all you want, get angry for me not forgiving you,. etc. I really don't care. My anger at you is so justified it defies explanation. It goes way beyond the need.

C Miranda, I know you get upset with what catnip sometimes posts. I don't. They are only words that tell how she feels. She is entitled, as you are entitled to your feelings.

I woke up last night thinking of you, however, and wondered if perhaps catnip's anger upsets you so because you worry if your H found out about that the child he believes is his is the OM's that he may also feel outrageously angry with you. And that is what really scares you.

I wonder if you have told him the truth yet, or not. And I wonder if the anger you all turn toward Catnip has more to do with an anger projected outward from within. I know once in therapy, my H became incredibly angry at me for how I felt about all this, and at the therapist for trying to get him to look at his own behavior. The therapist rightfully commented, that it was so easy for my H to be angry at me and at him, but was it not really true he was angry at himself for doing such damage to us and everyone and creating this mess. In a very angry tone of voice, my H said, yes, he was furious at himself for meeting OW, having the A, having the OC.

Now I ask you, Miranda, in the most supportive way possible, is it not possible you could be like my H and maybe other WS" out there-- and be in fact be angry at yourself for doing what you did? Do you not have to deal with that anger as well to heal yourself and your marriage?

Catnip,

I'm by no means retired that is for sure.
Look, all I'm asking is that you practice what you preach around here. You ask for the ow's and the ws's to be considerate of your and the other BS's on this board. It took me a while to learn that it isn't so much what I say, but how I say it that counts.
I do not ask you or Tina, or anyone for that matter to change your feelings. You all have a right to feel the way that you do, however that may be. I have no problem respecting that. By the same standard, I expect the same in return. Alittle respect. Its not too much to ask. After all, that is what you have been demanding since the day I started posting here. It has to be mutual to work.
No, you didn't call me an adulterous whore. Nor did you personally direct your insults at my child, directly. However, indirectly, I'm offended by your choice of words. I'm entitled to feel that way. Just as you are entitled to be insulted when I've used certain words to explain how I feel about certain issues and when I have talked about the deep and meaningful relationship I had with my ex-.
Lets not get into a big debate over this. I am asking that you think about following your own spoken rules. If they don't work for both of us (bs, ws/ow) then they don't apply to anyone.

CM

UW,

You are right, I do get upset by her choice of words sometimes. They are only words? I'm not sure if it was K or JL who once explained to me that words are powerful and they have the power to hurt people who are already hurting. I used to say exactly what I thought, and sometimes, what others thought as well but wouldn't post. They were my feelings and sure, I am entitled to them. However, they were at times hurtful and for that, I'm not entitled. And neither is anyone else.

No, she didn't call me a whore. Maybe the BS's like Catnip think that all ws or ow's are whores, I'm not really sure. All that I know is that my ex- was the 2nd man in my 33 years that I've been with intimately, so a whore I am not. Not in my book. Not all women who get into an affair are whores and to assume so gets on my nerves. Maybe Tina's WS's OW is one, I don't know. But regardless, I don't think this forum is the place to discuss it, in my opinion.

Catnip's anger isn't upsetting to me. I'm used to it and I understand how she can be as angry as she is. I understand that anger isn't a one shot deal. It comes and goes in waves. I don't fault her for her anger. I certainly don't fault my H for his anger toward me at this time. My H isn't as angry as I thought he'd be. He sees alot of his own actions that contributed to where we are today. I don't blame him for my choices, but we both can agree that our M was in big trouble before the A.

I am not feeling comfortable coming on the board after my absence and having the pot all stirred up again over Catnip's post. I think this issue needs to settle down first. However, I am happy to share that I've revealed a good amount of truth to my H over the past month with the help and guidance of a professional. Its complicated to say the least. We're both angry at times, at eachother and at ourselves.
I'm angry at myself for but not for the reasons your H describes. I can't look back and wish it weren't so. I look back and know that I've grown because of where I've been. I understand myself alot better today than I did 7 years ago. I see why I got into the situation I did and for that, I am not angry.

We are working hard to save our M and become best friends again. My H is amaziningly forgiving as he realizes that he also needs to be forgiven. Its a two way street for us.
CM

tina,
I'm sorry your H is putting up a fuss. It's soooo not necessary. His OC didn't have a relationships to his father, so why should anyone recognize one? I'm so sorry for your continued pain. You're a good woman to treat your inlaws with loyalty and kindness despite your H.
-----------------------------------
CM,
I'm so glad your marriage is improving, honesty's improving, you and H are forgiving each other your wrongs and growing. It's helpful to examine the problems in the marriage; it helps the betrayed spouse forgive the wandering spouse, as your H is forgiving you, and to work on improvement. But the idea an affair was an okay way to improve it is self-serving.

My marriage is better after my H's affair, but I don't think he HAD to have an affair for us to get that improvement; I'm not going to give A the credit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> There were OTHER ways to get my attention!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I understand now that he was "acting out" rather than face his problems. A is still immoral and forever a scar on our lives.

Prayers for all,
J
in recovery 4 yrs and glad I stayed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>tina,
I'm sorry your H is putting up a fuss. It's soooo not necessary. His OC didn't have a relationships to his father, so why should anyone recognize one? I'm so sorry for your continued pain. You're a good woman to treat your inlaws with loyalty and kindness despite your H.
-----------------------------------
CM,
I'm so glad your marriage is improving, honesty's improving, you and H are forgiving each other your wrongs and growing. But the idea an affair was an okay way to improve it is self-serving.

My marriage is better after my H's affair, but I don't think he HAD to have an affair for us to get that improvement. There were OTHER ways to get my attention!! A is still immoral and forever a scar on our lives.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jenny,

I never said or meant to sound as if the affair was a means to an improved marriage. I certainly didn't use the affair to try and gain my H's attention. I feel that once our marriage got to a point where it was pretty bad, there were two correct responses. Seek a seperation or seek help and stay in it. Its really that black and white for me. I didn't do that. I happen to meet OM at the time when I was moving toward the seperation option and my actions and choices were forever changed because of him and the emr.
I believe that if I didn't have the A, we'd be divorced. I don't think the A saved my M but I feel it rerouted my attention long enough that my H had a chance to make some very necessary changes for himself. I got into a situation where I fell in love with my ex and for my dependence on him, wouldn't or couldn't get out of that relationship for too long.

I'm not making excuses. I choose to not look back on it and cry a river of regret. I feel that while there was a good amount of bad that came out of it, there too came with it some good.

CM

(I'm really sorry for yet another reply; I didn't get a chance to read your post completely the first time)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:

I guess I'll never understand some people's difficulty at accpting another point of view or someone's feelings about someone or something. It just doesn't bother me when people have differing opinions other than mine and it doesn't bother me how they express them. It doesn't even bother me if they call my husband's XOW a whore, because she is. To refute that is to deny the obvious.

Catnip, you are the queen of confronting someone who doesn't own your opinion, what are you talking about here??! And who could call her anything, when no one in your circle knows about her? You preached to me about living honestly, all the while you and your H are living with a lie of sorts.

It's just a word, CM, a legitimate word with a definition in the dictionary, which legitimizes it as an expressive way to describe someone. It does carry a lot of impact, because it is supposed to. The word whore makes everyone cringe, even me.

When I made the unknowing mistake of using the word bitter here, you went off the deep end. It sure was more than just a word to you from good old Webster. I dare ask, which side of your mouth are speaking out of today..? At least, lets be real.

I don't know what you think you will prove by delving into my old posts. I am not denying or ashamed of anything I have ever said. If you just want to make a case that I am vocal or use descriptive words or that I am angry, I can't and won't deny it or apologize for it and it is standard record anyway. So what's your point?

Catnip, it was your idea for me to go and find something you wrote that was not nice.. not mine. I am just saying that I won't do it.

Look, CM, I have come to really, really like you a lot but you just have to understand that these rages are cyclical and right now I am really smoked. I am liable to say just about anything. I am on the edge and I know it. When I get like this all I do is ruminiate about injustices and good people being crushed and it just sends me over the edge. I happen to know what Tina's husband has said and done to her and it makes me crazy. I probably should have tempered my words a bit but ONLY because I very well might have offended HER, and only her. I am only concerned about Tina and really don't care about what anyone else thinks right now.

Okay. But you gotta understand you can't have it both ways Catnip. Thats all. I'm done.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Catnip,

I'm by no means retired that is for sure.
Look, all I'm asking is that you practice what you preach around here. You ask for the ow's and the ws's to be considerate of your and the other BS's on this board. It took me a while to learn that it isn't so much what I say, but how I say it that counts.
I do not ask you or Tina, or anyone for that matter to change your feelings. You all have a right to feel the way that you do, however that may be. I have no problem respecting that. By the same standard, I expect the same in return. Alittle respect. Its not too much to ask. After all, that is what you have been demanding since the day I started posting here. It has to be mutual to work.
No, you didn't call me an adulterous whore. Nor did you personally direct your insults at my child, directly. However, indirectly, I'm offended by your choice of words. I'm entitled to feel that way. Just as you are entitled to be insulted when I've used certain words to explain how I feel about certain issues and when I have talked about the deep and meaningful relationship I had with my ex-.
Lets not get into a big debate over this. I am asking that you think about following your own spoken rules. If they don't work for both of us (bs, ws/ow) then they don't apply to anyone.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CM

I am so sorry. I don't recall being disrespectful to you at all. Am I missing something here?

CM, I really like you and I thought I have been treating you with respect all along...well, at least since we buried the hatchet some months ago. I really don't see where I have been disrespectful to you. Could you be more specific and less general so I know where I have erred?

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>

I am not feeling comfortable coming on the board after my absence and having the pot all stirred up again over Catnip's post. I think this issue needs to settle down first.

=^^= If not here, where? This is the place to mix it up, not look for a warm blanket of non-confrontational stuff. However, I have noticed that when things get exciting here, you are one of the first ones to jump on board...and I think that is great. This site was getting pretty dang sleepy lately. We needed some point/counterpoint.

However, I am happy to share that I've revealed a good amount of truth to my H over the past month with the help and guidance of a professional
We are working hard to save our M and become best friends again. My H is amaziningly forgiving as he realizes that he also needs to be forgiven.

=^^= Wow....excellent news. I was wondering if your absence had anything to do with discovery. I am so proud of you, CM...it sounds like it went much better than you anticiplated. I remember how you agonized in your fear of the unknown. I am so pleased it is going better than you thought it would. You're in my thoughts and prayers, CM, for a successful recovery.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>

First of all, CM, how do you get that cool italic look in your posts?

[QUOTE]

Catnip, you are the queen of confronting someone who doesn't own your opinion, what are you talking about here??!

=^^= It isn't confronting someone who doesn't share my opinion, it is confronting them on something they may or may not be doing that is detrimental to their recovery or or hurting someone else. I guess if you want to disect it down to the bones, it is all opinion and point of view. What I am saying, I guess, is that I don't get personal unless I have been attacked (a lot) first and try to accept someone else's mindset. Confrontational is much different than getting personal. I try to stick to the former rather than the latter, if possible. Confrontational is good.

And who could call her anything, when no one in your circle knows about her? You preached to me about living honestly, all the while you and your H are living with a lie of sorts.

=^^= You're right. It does sound that way. Most people in our family do not know about her. As far as honesty, the only people my husband and I have to be totally and completely honest with is each other. The rest, in our opinion, is no one's business but our own.

When I made the unknowing mistake of using the word bitter here, you went off the deep end. It sure was more than just a word to you from good old Webster. I dare ask, which side of your mouth are speaking out of today..? At least, lets be real.

=^^= It wasn't that you used the word "bitter" and "hateful", it's that you used it in every single post when you first came here while hurling tons and tons of personal attacks on just about everyone. I mean, CM, when you came here, you were really mean and nasty and used bitter and hateful as a way to justify and manipulate or whatever it was, but it made all of us here crazy and defensive because you were not specific, just general in your insults. So we all hurled the insults back atcha, but then a miracle happened and you realized that you were just scared and lost and freaked out about discovery and BS's reactions. I work very, very hard to be fair and I appreciate your assessment that I have fallen short. I will think about what you said but I don't think it is really like that MOST of the time. I will keep myself in check as best I can, however. Thanks for your input.

But you gotta understand you can't have it both ways Catnip. Thats all. I'm done.

=^^= But, CM! I LIKE having it both ways. Why can't I have it both ways? Just kidding. I was not aware I was like this as I never thought I was a hypocrite. I will pay more attention to this and see if this is true. Thanks for pointing this out.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

tina,,,, i know this is late but i am also sorry for your family's lose.


i may have missed something in one of the posts in this thread but have you considered that maybe your husband is feling not only mournful of his fathers death but also that because of his actions he cheated his own father out of knowing what are really 2 of his grandchildren. there is no intention here by any means to try and reignite any painful feelings for you. although the reality is the man did simply have 2 more grand kids. (and i hope that i am correct with the number.) i don't agree that the ow should be includede in any of the procedures as she meant nothing to the family in any way. just a thought i had to try and ease some of the hurt and anger that is flowing through this thread.

my deepest condolences on the passing of your father-in-law, pops

Catnip,

Okay, truce. I'm not looking to fight with you. I only wanted to let you know that what you called the children hurt me. Some of us reading here got offended and if you could leave out the insults to the kids, it would be really appreciated.

thank you..

CM

Trousley

I don't know who you are but I know you do not belong here.

Unless you post your story, we assume you are here bearing ill will. To protect our members, we ask that you refrain from combative dialogue and disrespectful judgments and that "na-na-na-na" thing...

I have read all four of your posts and if you are not UW"s OW, then you are her best friend. You are certainly no friend of UW. So, please leave.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

J and trousley, I know you are the OW and her friend. I know you both have posted here before.

What you say does not effect me in the least, and does not influence me nor my family nor my H.

You have blocked our emails to you--as if I wanted to communicate to you-- and I have no desire to speak or commuicate with either of you.

But much of what J has told you is incorrect-- and not true. Do you really think what my H says in emails is true to J as well? He lied to me for many years, why do you think he hasn't lied to her as well ?

J forced him to support the child by taking him to court. He didn't start willingly to support her at all.

Don't worry about my anger or rage. It is not eating me alive, nor my family. It isn't ruining my life. I think you both have it all wrong. You both seem way too preoccupied about what I or my H or family are thinking. I think you both have it backwards. It is you both who are preoccupied with me and my H and my family, and angry with us. You post these nasty emails on MB, as if I care what you say. It doesn't matter if J or you, trousley, post--it is as if you are one against me.

Remember, I did nothing wrong to J, but she has done much to hurt me and my life. Someone who willingly hurts others, without regard for their welfare, does deserve my wrath, especially when you interfere in the life I created for my children. Nothing will ever change my feelings on that.

If you deem that as anger unjustified or too prolonged, so be it. But let's see how you feel if someone hurts your precious daughter as you have hurt my precious children. Then let's see how forgiving you will be.

Leave us alone. You both must have so little in your life that you even have to taunt us on web sites in cyberspace.

You are both sad creatures.