I Know for me, I'm not perfect I fall short none of us are, when people are hurting, They say and do things, that hurt people that are the closest to them.

I was once told when someone says something to hurt you ask yourself why is this hurting me.

Is there some truth in what they say, am I in denial, Does this reminds me of something said to me long ago.

CM I don't know you,what is it, that have you stuck on what Catnip has to say? Are you a OW? have you had a child outside of your marriage?

I have to be honest here Catnip has answered my post and she was brutally honest with me to the point I caught feelings.

Instaed of going into a verbal match with her, I had to stop and ask myself the million dollar question was she telling the truth about my situation? Was I in denial?

When I got honest with self, I knew the very answer to my question. Yes she was telling the truth, and yes I was in denial and I tried to justify my action. Once I freed myself of that I was no longer angry with her. I became angry at the situation I allowed myself to be put in thats the key we have to know the difference. Sometimes it's not what they say, it's what they are saying about the situation we put ourselves in and we haven't truly forgiven ourselves, we can easily find a scapegoat but it that really freeing us from us no we are only runining.

The truth hurts no matter how you slice or dice it
when I'm totally comfortable with whom I am, there is nothing you can say that will hurt me.

When I have those days that I'm not totally comfortable with whom I am then yes here comes my baby feeling.

It then goes back to me why am I not comfortable with me today.It's all about being honest with self it starts with you and ends with you CM.

People are our mirrors they only reflect what we don't see about ourselves or the pain we have caused other people.

Another thing we give God the charge when in fact it was our misguided choices. God does give us choices you know.

So you say when ow buys a kit that tells her when she's ovalating and she sleeps with this man with sole intent to trap him or whatever her intentions are, you saying God had a hand in that what about the devil what part he plays in this you know he's active as well to.

I do know this, anything of God is not contingent on no one's pain. I beleieve that with all my heart now the devil that's a different story the devil will use who ever and whatever to bring about pain not God that my opinion.

Peace

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

Catnip wondering why you never replied to my last post.

Good Morning all I'm at work. I was discussing adultery and children being born out of adultery with coworkers of mine and boy what was brought into the light, what this does to the children spiritually.

People tend to believe when to people come together and have sex this is a spirit of love especially when a child is conceived.
It depends on the spirit of the act it self either it's out of deception or it's out of love.

If it's an adultery act the spirit is out of deception. If it a loving act were no one is being deceptive or hurt is out of love. I know this will go over some heads but I don't expect everyone to grasp this.

So in other words, if you are having an A with married people the act itself is very deceptive act, so this will bring about the sprit of deception, everything we do has a spirit behind it one good one bad.

One is of God, one is of the devil, so if you are being deceptive you pass this deceptive spirit on to your child while it's being conceived in your womb.

I talk to children that are children of adultery some resent there Mom or DAD my H father has 3 children, each one has different mothers, and the issue they have, these are not children they are adults they resent both parents and many other adults have the same problems.

You don't have believe anything I say, look around at our dysfunctional children as they grow into adults where do you think there behavior come from it the parents. We as adults pass these spirits on to our children good or bad depending on how you live. Please read Iyanla Vanzant book In The meantime and The spirit of a man.

She talks about her life growing up, being the child born out of adultery and the problems she had how she attract turmoil in her life because of the spirit in which she was conceived.

She experience this without even knowing she was a child out adultery as she mature and tapped into her spiritual self only then was she able to change herself.

How many of us tap into our spiritual self how many of us truly sit down with our children telling them about there spirit.

We know what's in our heart, we know right from wrong but we try to justify wrongs making them right, for our selfish needs at the expense of others this is operating out of the deceptive spirit.

Until we all understand, that we all are one, and when you hurt, I hurt when you love, we all love then and only then will we get it.

It is so simple but people complicate life.
POJA has love spirit connected to it because it's not complete until both parties agree and satisfied.
Love spirit is not complete until we all are satisfied, not me happy over here and dam you, it doesn't work that way.

If to people who are married, or one of the partners are married, decided to have an affair they are not considering there spouses feeling or emotion they are operating out of the deceptive spirit, it has become a meaningless hobbies for the both of them to fill a void at the expense of there love ones.

So everyone tap into your God self and stop the demonic spirit, maybe I'm asking to much. I just don't like when folk justify pain hurting people then giving God the charge.

Hey Catnip! I'm with you all the way. Your continued words to BS and what they may be feeling help more than you know.

It lets BS know that the feelings and thoughts they have about ow/oc are a normal way to think.

At some point in time the feelings relax, and attitudes change. That doesn't mean BS do not continue to think the same way, just not as fierce or as often.

If recovery is going well, the thoughts diminish with time but never go away.

MALC, I read somewhere that ow say these oc's are a gift from God. God would never allow a child to be born as a "gift" that would bring so much unhappiness/pain to so many people.

He would allow it as a wakeup call. To stun adults into an awakening. To call them back home with Him. That is usually the case.

That being said, God will not punish the oc. The punishment is a lifelong reminder to oc's parents of the pain and suffering the oc brought to many lives because the parents chose to ignore the commandment of "Thou shall not commit adultry".

Perhaps the schoolyard ridicule will harm oc, but not as much as it will hurt oc' Mom.

We all know we'd rather have and absorb ANY pain our children may have. When we can't absorb it, we realize it ourselves in a worse way.

God will bless these kids in other ways.

Cd, perhaps that is what happened to your h? Mental illness can be a result of trauma. Maybe your H hasn't forgiven himself for the turmoil he put his family through. Now he's a mess and you are on your way to a better life. You are one strong willed woman and I wish you the best.

H and I are doing fine. His continued remorse and our private talks are wonderful healing tools.

We enjoy our granddaughter so much. H is beyond greatful to me. He thanks God we remained together and tells me it was MY STRENGTH and BELIEFS! I laugh and tell him it was GOD all the way.

As soon as my prayers began with "Show me the path to take, please God" my life changed. I wasn't begging for H anymore, just peace. I told H God did it. I also tell him that I'm so happy things turned out as they did. We now cherish each other.
Thanks Catnip, Twiisty, and Cd for asking......

BTW, I don't come here often. It's healthier for me to take breathers once in a while.

Also to avoid the thrashing Catnip and the like take for giving an opinion. An opinion many BS need to read to know they are not crazy, as I thought two years ago.

love
Debi

Hey Gem
I thought I was going off with the anger that I felt. You know some of these children do suffer because of there parents thoughtless behavior. They suffer phsychologically when they become adults they repeat what there parents did, while parent watch in silence and not mumble a word. I'm witnessing this as we speak.

This is why you have some family members that cosign the behavior it helps rid them of the quilt they have perpetuated
saying it's ok it's the norm see the next generation is doing this.

This is the lie they tell themselves to keep from being responsible for there actions. Knowing children live what they learn.try to keep it a secret they say you are as sick as your secrets.

A must read ow & om better think twice

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mistress021109.html

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>You know catnip, maybe you hit my tigger point today, as I'm normally able to ignore your defensive reply's to posters who actually disagree with you.

=^^= Is it defensiveness or a point of view?

I have to point something out. We all know that Tina's H was involved with his OP for years and years, so why do you say, in reference to the emr, flavor of the month/year? You seem to relish in belittling people and making it seem that all emr's are meaningless hobbies.

=^^= Guilty as charged. It is true. This is how I feel, this is how I see it and you are right. I do belittle the OW. I do see MOST OW's as meaningless hobbies. It makes me feel better, but it is also the way I really see them. But that's my shortcoming. It is also therpeutic for me.

I know you said this is a very bad trigger month for you but isn't there another avenue for you to tunnel your negative energy?

=^^= What better place than here? Is it negative or cathartic?

While I think supporting someone and banding together to support her is awesome and admirable, why do it in such a coarse manner?

=^^= Is it coarse or honest?

BTW,I don't understand how people who stand up here and talk about God and His love and the right and moral way to live, can justify such verbal abuse and the emotional neglect of children. As if God didn't create those children.

=^^= It is only verbal abuse if I am saying this to the OC directly, to her face. I am only emotionally neglecting her if I am cruel or ignore her when we are in the same room. Since neither has happened on my watch, I am neither verbally abusing or emotionally neglecting anyone. When I call my OC "[censored] spawn", it really is a nasty thing to say and I shouldn't do it but it descibes what I feel at the moment. And secretly I really don't think that of this child in our situation, nor do I hate this child. I secretly harbor tender feelings for her. Because she is my husband's daughter and I want her to be whole and healthy...but away from us in the care of the OW. But since this site was originally for betrayeds in pain over this situation, we got spoiled thinking we could be bitter when appropriate and be loving and forgiving when appropriate. I am pleased that we vascillate toward the latter more often than the former. But also pleased we can say something "not nice" when appropriate, too. It is just words and the OC doesn't read it, so no one is hurt, except perhaps me for being petty at the moment. But, sometimes the mere thought of this child and her existence brings on the kind of searing hot pain that shakes me to my core with my longing for my own child that will never be and it takes my breath away. So, on a good day, I think of this child with warmth and well wishing, wishing I could see her and love her like I did for my husband's other two children from his first marriage, and on a bad day, I think of the circumstances of her conception and the hurt is indescribable.

Sheesh, I got up this morning expecting maybe two or three responses and found all of these...kind of scary.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>Catnip wondering why you never replied to my last post.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I went to bed around 9PM and just got up a little while ago...I wasn't ignoring you, Honey. I was just sleeping.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>I became angry at the situation I allowed myself to be put in thats the key we have to know the difference. Sometimes it's not what they say, it's what they are saying about the situation we put ourselves in and we haven't truly forgiven ourselves, we can easily find a scapegoat but it that really freeing us from us no we are only runining.

=^^= I am impressed with your introspective assessment, MALC. You seem to have found the key to begin your healing. Just being self aware and willing to open yourself up to other ideas starts the process.

People are our mirrors they only reflect what we don't see about ourselves or the pain we have caused other people.

=^^= That's insight. I never looked at it that way before.

So you say when ow buys a kit that tells her when she's ovalating and she sleeps with this man with sole intent to trap him or whatever her intentions are, you saying God had a hand in that what about the devil what part he plays in this you know he's active as well to.

=^^= This is the best argument I've seen for whether or not the OC is the product of God's will or someone else's willfulness. In my case, the OW carried an EPT test around with her in her purse like a Mormon on a mission. It wasn't God who inspired her to set this up or to hang up on me over and over, ignoring my pleas. Had she been listening to God, she would have become compassionate and backed off. And I wouldn't be here being "bitter and hateful".

I do know this, anything of God is not contingent on no one's pain. I beleieve that with all my heart now the devil that's a different story the devil will use who ever and whatever to bring about pain not God that my opinion.

=^^= Amen.

Peace</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
[QB]
Good Morning all I'm at work.

=^^= At 3:27 AM? Yikes.

People tend to believe when to people come together and have sex this is a spirit of love especially when a child is conceived.
It depends on the spirit of the act it self either it's out of deception or it's out of love.

=^^= this is an interesting point of view I have never really considered although deep down I believed this too on some level.

look around at our dysfunctional children as they grow into adults where do you think there behavior come from it the parents. We as adults pass these spirits on to our children good or bad depending on how you live.

=^^= Could explain a lot about why our society has become so sick. So many children out there in single parent homes without the advantages of a whole family. Children faced with abandonment issues and strife because of their parents' sins...when they should be enjoying their childhoods innocently embracing life and learning about integrity and character, they are left to wonder why there is only one parent, a parent who is often absent because they have to work all the time and leave the child home alone to do chores and feeling lonely when they should be concentrating on school and friends. My own son is one of these kids because I was divorced from his father and had to work and my son was left alone a lot. As a result, he has a lot of holes in his personality and a lot of residule sadness because his father never gave him the time of day. But, he was a child of divorce, not adultery. Adding that stigma on top of abandonment issues has to be so much worse. As a divorced single parent, I carry a lot of guilt and wish I could turn back the clock and find ways to be with my son more often.

We know what's in our heart, we know right from wrong but we try to justify wrongs making them right, for our selfish needs at the expense of others this is operating out of the deceptive spirit.

=^^= Good point

Until we all understand, that we all are one, and when you hurt, I hurt when you love, we all love then and only then will we get it.
Love spirit is not complete until we all are satisfied, not me happy over here and dam you, it doesn't work that way.

=^^= Another excellent point. No one can base their happiness on someone else's misery and pain.

If to people who are married, or one of the partners are married, decided to have an affair they are not considering there spouses feeling or emotion they are operating out of the deceptive spirit, it has become a meaningless hobbies for the both of them to fill a void at the expense of there love ones.

=^^= Excellent point

Thanks, MALC for your insight.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Once again this sight has confirmed that I am doing the right thing and that it is a good thing that OM and his wife and my husband and myself work together to try and be good parents for my daughter.
I have doubts at times and have made some changes, But over all, I am glad we worked this out and work together, It makes for a better life for my daughter and my other children to not see fighting and here such negative things from people.


I do belive God had a hand in my getting pregnant,
I wasnt feeling well went to the dr. and found out that my last papsmear was abnormal, and while I found out I was pregnant, I also found I had cancer and would not have known had I not gone in.
I am now cancer free and doing well and I thank God for that.
Even om's wife thinks my daughter answered her prayers, she prayed that god would let a small child heal some wounds and while she meant something else she now believes my little one was that answer.
I love all my children, and think they are all awesome, That means my children I had with my husband , my child that we adopted, and my daughter I had with om. They are all amazing and life would be pretty empty with out them. Om man is amazed and excited about daughter every day, He says he is so happy we have her and I know he means it. That little girl has two daddys who think she is wonderful and look forward to seeing her every day. My husband works hard to keep his bond with her, and he does that because he loves her. Kinda the same reason stacia works so hard with their little one, because she loves her.



and yes I believe we are all entittled to an opinion, every one has one, this is just mine.

have a great sunday, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cat's-meow-nip ... I wuv ya widdle puddy tat .... I do I do ..... but sometimes you scratch, and hisssss, and bite!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But, that'a what makes you a kitty .... and I love little kitties. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CMiranda .... I love YOU too!!!!! Surprize!!!! I love your *guts* girl . You got guts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Keep working on that marriage CM .... *there is a diamond* waiting for you. Learn to trust that truth and courage is your ticket to happiness.

Lurk mode switched back on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thank you very much Catnip
I respect your honesty it just behooves me to put God in the equation of Adultry. I just don't get it.

My coworkers didn't seem to get it neither. I was asked how is God being responsible for all this pain when in fact in the bible, that's one of the Ten commandments thou shall not commit Adultry.

This is the question my coworkers are asking how can this be justified. I told them I was just as baffled as they were.

When I see people, making excuses about the pain that is caused to hurt People this just tells me what kind of society we live in .

MomofFive,

I feel the very same way. My son was sent to me strait from Heaven. He is God's miracle baby. Anyone who dare suggest other wise is working for the devil. I think that about wraps up my entire feeling on the reference to children, any child, as anything other than God's angels. Every last one of them. They came to be because they were meant to be.

CM

To avoid all confusion....God does indeed give life.

God was not there during the adultry which he condems.

The conceived child was a wakeup call to the adulterers to "wake up" and realize their selfishness will cause pain to a lot of people including oc for years to come.

If it were the way a child is meant to be brought into the world there would simply be no pain. No struggle. Only joy and happiness.

I haven't seen that one time in these circumstances.

There is guilt and problems with most of the people here who are associated with this dilema.

Sorry I came to peek in on my ole buddies.

The confusion caused by telling the truth here is why I choose e-mail with my friends rather than try to explain myself any more.

It's sad as this placed saved my sanity two years ago.

Now I just pray for new members. I'm sure there will never be a shortage of, sadly, as some people justify their very immoral behaviour with the blessing of God in their oc. Funny, isn't it?

Debi

CM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the very same way. My son was sent to me strait from Heaven. He is God's miracle baby. Anyone who dare suggest other wise is working for the devil. I think that about wraps up my entire feeling on the reference to children, any child, as anything other than God's angels. Every last one of them. They came to be because they were meant to be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Please read the post again no one implied anything you did. That's how the self accusing spirit works when you try to justify a deceptive spirit it will have you reading seeing and hearing things that are not so to justify the deception.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People tend to believe when to people come together and have sex this is a spirit of love especially when a child is conceived.
It depends on the spirit of the act it self either it's out of deception or it's out of love.

If it's an adultery act the spirit is out of deception. If it a loving act were no one is being deceptive or hurt is out of love. I know this will go over some heads but I don't expect everyone to grasp this.

So in other words, if you are having an A with married people the act itself is very deceptive act, so this will bring about the sprit of deception, everything we do has a spirit behind it one good one bad.

One is of God, one is of the devil, so if you are being deceptive you pass this deceptive spirit on to your child while it's being conceived in your womb.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

The decptive spirit is very cunnung and deceiving
it's one of SATAN ALLIES

Hi Gem

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I just pray for new members. I'm sure there will never be a shortage of, sadly, as some people justify their very immoral behaviour with the blessing of God in their oc. Funny, isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I agree with you 1000% my own grandchildren even say God don't hurt people do.
And to give God the glory and say God is behide this is really something but you are right it's only the people who is associated with this kind of behavior in some sort. They will use God name is vain to justify hurting people and destroying families.

Wait until there children grow up they will see

I find it odd that there are so many perfect people with out sin on this board. Must be hard to be so Godly.

I can talk about God in the same breath as I talk about my child, Because while I do not think my afair was right, and neither does om, we both know Our baby is innocent and we both love her and want her to be happy.
The something none of you seem to get while your pointing fingers... Your husbands are just as guilty as that ow and if that husband is able to be forgiven, and he is capable of being a good person, guess what chances are so is that ow. How many of you have said your husbands made a mistake and they love you so much and are so trying to make up what they had done. They love you, they love your children... so why is it so suprising a mother of a child, [no matter Who the father was] would not love that child as deeply and passionately as you love your own children.

My husband and I do not see this sweet baby girl as anything but a blessing. When I look at that baby laying there, my first thought is not, she is om's.. my first thought is thats our baby[husbands and mine] My husband does not look at her and say I dont want to be her daddy, he calls himself daddy and works hard to fill that role for her. My children do not look at her and think thats om's daughter, they say thats my sister... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Yes it is not with out problems, But how many of you have perfect lives with out problems... I am guessing none of you or you wouldnt be here. How many of you have children who are with out any troubles what so ever,
DO you think when ever your child has a behavior problem or has some problems you are being punished because your husband had two lives.

This argument doesnt make a lot of sense, because your spouses are in the same boat the ow is in, I just dont see the point. My guess is her family feels the same about your husbands as you do about her. They were both wrong, But I dont know about your God but mine is a forgiving God.

I think some are missing the point in this discussion about God and OC.

In MY humble opinion, I think of the child as a result of an affair senario the same way I would think of say:

Murder ... God does not bless the act of murder. He does however allow Satan to tempt and influence Humans to commit the sin. Doesn't mean he willed the act of murder to be done. Doesn't mean he planned and plotted a person's demise. Means he allowed the result to come to fruition for a greater good.

Same thing with any and all of the ten commandments.

I think that God allows these children to be born for a reason. Whether that be to wake a WS or OP up and find their way back to right, or be an inspiration to someone or some concept in the distant future.

Another analogy I like to think of is children dying of incurrable diseases, famon and starvaton. Is our God an evil God to will such horrible realities. I think not. I do think that he allows humans to excercise their free will and it pleases him when we fight to do the right thing (comfort a sick child, feed a hungry child, clean up our enviornment that we've turned into a petri dish, etc.)

I don't think the orginal poster of the subject of God's position on OC meant to offend any mother of an OC. I think the point they were trying to make is that the act in which the child was concieved was not planned nor blessed by God himself. The ACT was simply a sin. Not the child itself.

I may be wrong, but again this is just my humble opinion on the subject.

Z.

<turning back on my lurking status> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MO5, Bless your heart. What more can I say?!

Malc, I wasn't referring to your post in particular. I am referring to the overall theme if you will, toward children born of the emr, on this board.

ZB, You share an interesting pov. I don't think I've missed the point. I just don't share the vision. I don't identifiy with your scenarios though. exOM and I carried on our A after discussions about "what if we get pregnant", during my pregancy and long after our child was born. My child was a wake up call for me to understand how much I love and wanted children. I do not believe for one second that God allowed my child be conceived and born. He created my child and loves him no different than anyother human being. My son was created from love and nothing less. ex-OM and I may not be together now but that is not because we didn't love eachother.

CM