I will never forgive the ow that helped tear my heart out.She never had one once of consideration for our children or h family. I am sure my h was in somekind of MLC but that is no excuse.He has asked me and the lord for forgiveness and that is where you start. But I will never care or waste my time thinking about how she feels. Any mother who would put her children and the children of the MM in such despair deserves nothing.
Anyway the ow in my sit has not even admitted this happened she is telling people its all a lie. Could she be embarresed that she was the one on the outside looking in. I am so thankful that there was not a child conc. from this. Another idea she had was to try to get cusd. of my c so my h did not have to pay support she wanted it from me. That is the kind of b**** I had to deal with. And when I get goin on this subject it makes me feel like she is getting back under my skin so i will stop at that. I'll climb in bed with my h and have a good night.....

JTigger- I guess this debate could go on forever, but here's what I think about the man's choice. Since nature being what it is, and women getting to hold the cards with the decision making after the fact (since it is their bodies and they are the ones that have to bear the emotional and physical burden of whichever path they choose), a man's choice comes when he chooses to have intercourse. That is when he should be smart enough to realize that if he sleeps with a woman, she may get pregnant (no matter what precautions they try to take).

Now, does that mean that every time a man sleeps with a woman he should be in a committed relationship? Yes!! I now believe that, yet I know it's a little idealistic.

If the man decides to have intercourse with a woman just for fun and cheap thrills, than he should be making that CHOICE with the knowledge of the possible consequences. Why should he be able to say that he didn't intend for a pregnancy to happen, so now he should be given another choice. Just look at how many unintended pregnancies there are- even in committed relationships. Men are not naive to the risk. They just want a nice cop out after the fact- now they want a second chance to choose (the first being when they decided to have intercourse) when the woman doesn't get a true second chance. Does she ever have the choice to just walk away? even if she has an abortion she must endure that physically and emotionally. The financial burden is only one part of the responsibility. The woman must deal with the emotional and physical responsibility regardless of which path is taken. Why do men feel they are doing their part if they only help out financially? I think it is again a cop out and if most weren't forced to legally they wouldn't even do that. What does that say about them?

Is it fair to expect men to take more responsibility in making their choice to sleep with a woman in the first place? To be willing to take FULL responsibility should a pregnancy happen and be a father whether they wanted to or not? Is that too much to ask a man to understand and be responsible for? Certianly not any more unfair than asking that of a woman. Or of women having to bear the responsibility for being the ones that end up physically pregnant and bear the brunt of going through with an abortion or carrying the child and giving birth.

I think now that the choice to become a parent begins with the sexual activity. If you are unwilling to raise a child with someone else or be a parent, you don't lay down with that person. Birth control methods don't always work and people in a sexual relationship sometimes let passion interfere with their judgement. If you make a mistake and were simply being irresponsible and selfish at the time (as in most affairs) then too bad, be sorry but realize that you made your bed and can't take it back. I think both parties foolishly hope they can get away with it, but as evidenced here, that doesn't always work out.

Yes, women get to make all the decisions after the fact, but the men KNEW this was the deal when they took that chance. It's not a big cover up that a woman could decide abortion or adoption is not an option. Men are not that stupid, are they? Why do they deserve a choice after the fact? Who deserves a second chance to wash their hands of the situation emotionally when that OC will never be able to do the same? And do you really think adoption or never getting to live would be a less painful, kinder alternative for the OC? I didn't think so, that is why I made the choice I made regarding this child. No matter what choice I made once I became pregnant, I suffer. But I realized I made the mistake and took my chances. Why don't the men realize the same thing?

It's not about what is best for me anymore. And once the man creates a life, too, it should no longer be about what's best for him. He should do what is best for that child. Instead, he often puts himself, the marriage, and his wife first. Would it be harder for him to keep the marriage going and heal the hurt and at the same time be a father to the OC? Yes, but too bad. He took on that responsibility when he slept with another woman. Does it hurt the BS and possible children from the marriage? Yes, but he can't fix that or justify himself now by choosing to hurt one child or person over another. He hurt his family by his betrayal in the first place. Again, that was a choice he made at the beginning. And while he is causing his family pain, he is still there for them- at least those children get to have their father and the wife a partner and a possible happier future. Doesn't the OC deserve the same?Why shouldn't the OC at least have a father, too? Not the healthiest situation for either side, a tough balancing act for the MM, but at least it's fair and a compassionate, responsible compromise.

Small print: If all parties can try to be adults of course. If the WS is truly repentant and not going to continue playing games. And if the OW is truly not psycho as some of you seem to be dealing with.

I can't even add anything to that. Thanks Lostone. Wait, I CAN add, that I gave xMM the option of walking away - completely - when I found out I was pg. His response? "What, do you think I'd do that, do you think I'm that much of a jerk?" Ahhhhh, six years later, yeah. I do.

Twiisty,

u took the words right out of my mouth.

How are you feeling? That baby is coming soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Me, my kids and our marriage...it's time to put us first...

***Why do they deserve a choice after the fact? ***

Thats simple. Because women have a choice after the fact. Thats what is known as equality.
To say that a man has made his choice by agreeing he has no choice is absurd.
And please don't ever think that walking away from a child is easy for all men. But just like women they make the best decision they can, given the circumstances. And just as not everyone will agree with the choice a women makes , not everyone will agree with the choice a man makes. But unfortunatly, unlike a woman, a man has only 2 choices and sometimes they both suck. But he has to choose the one that will cause the least damage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lostone29:
<strong> He should do what is best for that child. Instead, he often puts himself, the marriage, and his wife first. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong. The marriage comes first. And the children of the marriage. Why do so many OW think their OC is a prince/princess, and deserves so much more than the children of the marriage?!

If OW want a full-time dad, they should find a man who is available to do so. Otherwise, if they decide to have a child, they do so with the knowledge that the only support from their MM may be monetary.

jmho.

Lostone29 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who deserves a second chance to wash their hands of the situation emotionally when that OC will never be able to do the same? And do you really think adoption or never getting to live would be a less painful, kinder alternative for the OC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That oc will be able to wash themselves emotionally from the situation because they never knew MM as dad.

Adoption is how we think of this situation.

Ow in our situation did so many things TO ME, that I can't count them. I TRIED for my H to include oc, Ow turned down every attempt I made at setting things up. Finally we decided together to give it up and work on us. It was the best decision we made in this mess. Work on us.

My H plans to tell oc, if the time comes that he didn't want another c....that his mother persecuted us and ME to the point where it was toxic, and we have letters, police reports, pictures(of oc she put in mailbox for me to find), recordings to H and me on our answer machine. Incredible huh? That if there were a boat w/all of us on it and it turned over, my H would throw the life raft to me...H said he realized it was us he wanted. After over 30 years together, I believe him.

Ow was a former friend. H is still my H. H asked forgiveness in actions and words... Ow did nothing but cause me pain.

Put baptism notice in OUR church bulletin as if she and H were married....
Oc name..."parents." written with ow name and H first and last name.

We left the parish.

Puts pictures of oc in our local newpaper classifieds for public updates. You know, birthday, newyears, Christmas, it's amazing and she doesn't stop.

Prosecutor sent her a cease and desist letter last spring...now she goes around it.

All I'm saying is in a situation as serious as this, MM puts his wife first, as it should be. It may not be easy for him. As time goes on it does get better for MM in reconciliation. Hopefully ow/oc grow and go along together also and once oc realizes why no dad is around maybe ow can say why not.
I'm happy I don't have that burden.
I've already had enough.

Just that ow BLAME MM for his choice once A is in open. Never take responsibility for THEIR CHOICE...oh sure they raise oc, and bytch all the while about why MM turned back. Can't understand...well, oc is adopted or from a sperm bank donor as far as we are concerned. It's the attitude that oc supercedes all else that gets us to this point.

For goodness sake you ow! It was a secret relationship. Now you all want openess because of oc! Seldom ever works that way....

Besides oc, there are a lot of family involved from the marriage. In reality it's just better to sweep it away and continue to heal the marriage.

Debi

Dear Lostone,

I have come out of "lurking status" to ask you a question. No intent to flame, just seeking your point of view.

You believe that once a child is conceived, the focus of the MM should be on that child, not himself, and not his marriage. Someone else asked you the question and I am amplifying it. What about the children of the marriage?

If you are fair, then all children are equal, because they all belong to the MM. Why is the child of the OW more important and deserving of more consideration?

You don't get any argument from me on your point that all betrayers should think about consequences before taking the chance. But, that
is paradise. We live in the real world - a world where sex is packaged and peddled like perfume. Not saying it is right, but it is a fact, that men succumb to the cheap thrill. That, in itself, is not an easy thing to accept for an OW, that the MM was looking for a cheap thrill and not a lasting relationship.

My own philosophy is simple. The majority of individuals who betray their spouses are selfish and thinking only of their own pleasure. In most cases they are not thinking about the OW -- they are not thinking about the spouse.

But when a child is conceived, it forces them to take a long hard look at the future. That is when many MM realize that they built a life with the spouse -- a sense of closeness and familiarity that is not easily replaced. And that is also when they start to understand (often for the first time!) what those marriage vows truly meant.

I am truly interested in your thinking on the children of the marriage, also innocent, coming from a blessed union, and the same flesh and blood of the MM as the OC.

love,
heavenly

Butterfly wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Twiisty,

u took the words right out of my mouth.

How are you feeling? That baby is coming soon </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm feeling okay...baby will be here in ten weeks...just started my 28th week and will be induced a week early as 'we grow'em big' at our house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The little squirt didn't even cooperate during the U/S so we have to wait until he/she is born.

Heavenly,

You wrote very eloquently what I could have wanted to type out after reading this far on this thread....I am interested also in trying to understand other's POV, even if I don't agree, at least I'm glad we all have a right to say what we need to say. We all believe in different things.

Hugs to y'all.....
Twiisty

I also guess, that if a married man choses to have sex and therefore creates an "unintentional" child and by some lines of reasoning here, that some think that he should be in that child's life, then I guess when the OW agreed to have sex, she took the chance of the man running out on her also. She took the chance of having to raise the child alone with monetary support and nothing more or less. That's a chance I suppose that the OW's take when they consent to sex outside of marriage too.

Even if the man wasn't a married man, he could be a single guy and still skip outta town. He still has the obligation to pay, but no one can force a man to be a father if he didn't want to be. Married, single or what-not.

I agree, that men should be careful where they spread their DNA. (Married or not). But as usual, it takes TWO to tango, the wayward spouse and the very willing OW/OM. BOTH are responsible and unfortunately, both have to pay in some way...either financially, or having to "go it alone". And as I said before, the real losers in this little unfair game we call life is the BS, the OC and the Children of the Marriage.

One thing I'm learning in this new book called, "Total Forgiveness" by R.T. Kendall is that we have no control over much of life.

We cannot control our wayward spouses
We cannot control ex-mm's
We cannot control Ow's/Ex-ow's
We cannot control BS's
We cannot control the court system
We cannot control how the OC will feel in the future....

All we can control is ourselves and how we choose to adjust to what is handed to us. We can control how we raise our children (OC's and COM's (children of marriage)
We can control what we teach them.
We cannot control how they will respond to it, so why worry if the child is gonna be damaged in the "what-if" future that may never happen? Do all we can to raise good kids now and let the future take care of the "what-if's".

OC is not a secret to anybody in our family. Our OW won't have to worry about that. The Family knows about her and I don't see them asking me for her address or see them knocking down the doors to get to their long-lost grandchild. I offered to give it to them and my MIL just did one of her "hand on her forehead and long sighs" thing. I've never kept anyone from OC. That was my H's choice.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are given choices on how we are going to handle what we have to deal with...and I'm trying to move on and make a better life for my children and myself.
I raised my two older kids by myself for almost four years before I married Mr."T"...my children's bio-Dad, "Wild Bill" just now is visiting them after 8 years.

I chose to raise them the best I could without bitterness even when he barely contacted them and barely paid his child support. I never brain-washed my kids in "what a jerk your bio-dad is" and they consider Mr."T" their Daddy in all respects. But they love Daddy "wild Bill" too. I'm glad we are trying to work this out now.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, your kid will turn out how to choose to raise the child and how you choose to present things to them.

You really cannot predict what a baby will think when they are older and if they will even be mad at bio-dad etc. unless presented with all the facts and then THEY will make their own conclusions anyway.

I think I make sense...just had a weird conversation with my ex-husband...maybe this is what spurred this little soapbox thing on...who knows...

I'm off to crack open a diet coke....I miss those things! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Twiisty (almost signed it twiity...yeah I'm that too!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Very interesting topic.
I do agree wife Marriage is first priorty
Someone here gave me a scripture pertaining this scenario OW & OC.

The scripture is in Genesis 21. 9-14 Sara was grievous over Abraham oc with Hagar also Abraham saw the grievous in his wife, Sara asked Abraham to send Hager and her child away.

Abraham went to God, God told Abraham to listen to his wife. Hagar and her child was sent away. Back then God knew the pain this would inflict on a wife and child the laws were put into effect back then NO CONTACT.

Read it for your self, This is something very painful for BS so I agree 100% NO CONTACT at all
this is my honest opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>lostone29,

But thats the entire point. YOU had all those options. Don't you think a man should be allowed the same ?
Admittedly he can't have an abortion or force you to have one but don't you think he should also have the OPTION to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy ?
Why is it only women are allowed the option of deciding when they do or do not wish to be a parent ? If you hold to the saying it takes two to create a child then should not both have equal say about if they wish to be a parent to that child ?
And just for the record, if a man is forced into unwanted parenthood, I for one don't think he should be forced to pay child support.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is just my personal opinion but if God wanted a man to have those options, She would have given man the ability to have children. Perhaps God knew what She was doing when She gave WOMEN the ability to have children and WOMEN the ability to make those decisions.

Men would go out screwing any and everything they could if they knew they could do it and have NO consequences. ONE man, could have sex with say TEN women in a weeks time. Say none of those women knew about the others (or even if they did) If EIGHT of them got pregnant, it's okay for the guy to just walk away b/c he didn't wasnt to have children, he just wanted to have fun? ALL of those women should give up the kids or abort b/c the dad doesn't want them? i respect your right to your opinion but i respectfully disagree. I personally think that paying CS is a consequence my H SHOULD pay. It's his consequence for having fun. I could look at it a a consequence to me too but I think of it more as a CHOICE. A lousy choice no doubt, but a choice nonetheless. Just like exOW CHOSE to have that kid, I mean, the OC knowing my H wouldn't be a full time dad, I CHOSE to stay with my H knowing he had an OC and a CS obligation. I could have walked away from the OC we didn't want.

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: nocontact4us ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is just my personal opinion but if God wanted a man to have those options, She would have given man the ability to have children. Perhaps God knew what She was doing when She gave WOMEN the ability to have children and WOMEN the ability to make those decisions</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I never read God giving women the option for
abortion nor adoption, I believe man women made those choices.I believe those choices had nothing to do with God.If that was the case if God was put first we wouldn;t have adultry OW OM OC.
just husband wives children of a 2parent family.
that just my opinion.

Because of the choices that were made without God being in the equation there are consequences.There is a nature rhythm for birth control for men and women one is called rythm method for women the other is called
en-jaculation for men.

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twiisty:
<strong>I also guess, that if a married man choses to have sex and therefore creates an "unintentional" child and by some lines of reasoning here, that some think that he should be in that child's life, then I guess when the OW agreed to have sex, she took the chance of the man running out on her also. She took the chance of having to raise the child alone with monetary support and nothing more or less. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose that some would look at it that CS is the price that the MM/xMM pay for it, and being a single parent is the price that the OW (the single ones, at least) pays? I know some people that have made it completely on their own with NO CS whatsoever (not an OC situation). Personally, I couldn't do it without going to the state for assistance, and even then I made too much money to qualify for anything. But I sucked it up and lived in one room with my son for a year and 1/2 because having him was a choice that I made, and if that's what I needed to do to live, that's what I did. I was getting CS at the time, but not enough to cover anything - he lied on his financial statements, and cut his income in half so he wouldn't have to pay. When we went back to court, I subpoenaed his wage records, and took HALF of what I could have been granted.
It's xMM's choice to not be in my son's life. HE made that decision, and he is the one that has to live with it. His decisions and his life are no longer my problem/issue. I live my life, he lives his. Arrrgh, off on another tangent I went.. LOL

Joshmom,

I can totally understand...I was a single mother who raised two girls on their own before marrying my H of now.

I think I was musing to myself when I was typing that and then I realized...that the OW does suffer in their own way and that single parenthood could be the consequence. It just kinda hit me there....I was like, WHOA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It isn't easy. I just wish there was a way that we all could feel good about ourselves and our decisions that are best for us without all of us feeling that our way or the highway is the way to go...there are sooooo many differences...from long term relationships to one night stands to the OW's not knowing that the MM's were married to those that willingly knew and "hoped" they got their man...we all have different scenarios....

You are doing the best you can and you are the best mother for your child. I wasn't trying to demean ya or anything...like I said, I was musing and the realization just came to me that OW's take chances too just as MM's do when they dally in a sexual encounter...

Peace and Hugs to you,
Twiisty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's xMM's choice to not be in my son's life. HE made that decision, and he is the one that has to live with it. His decisions and his life are no longer my problem/issue. I live my life, he lives his. Arrrgh, off on another tangent I went.. LOL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JoshMom you said it. He chose that (NC) to make his and your life peaceful. In other circumstances wild horses wouldn't keep him away.

In an affair it's bad enough to deal with the betrayal for BS. When an oc gets added it's a world of horrible pain for everyone, WS, BS, OW, C's of marriage, and OC.

EVERYONE eventually feels the pain of the two who started it all and often for years. Lifes are altered no matter what decision is made regarding oc.

CS is still unreasonable in many circumstances. If it were fair, and still allowed original family to continue a reasonable lifestyle, most wouldn't yell about it so loud.

Some of the families here have been put at poverty levels because of it.

They are paying over a thousand dollars a month, their children do w/o so oc can have more. That is what I'm trying to say....fairer laws.

We do not have small children so it hasn't affected us like some. I work and have a good income too. We have oc's health insurance through my job.

We have auto deposit from business acct. for oc.

We still eat, go out, vacation, purchase, w/o being affected.

FAIRNESS is all most here ask.

Debi

HeavenlyBody,

You said: "If you are fair, then all children are equal, because they all belong to the MM. Why is the child of the OW more important and deserving of more consideration?"

I do believe they are equal- which is my point. They BOTH deserve not only financial support from the MM but emotional support too. The OC deserves a father in it's life as much as the children of the marriage.

It will cause confusion and pain to the children of the marriage, true. But no more than the pain the OC will feel in not having a full time dad and growing up in a single parent household. It wouldn't be completely easy on any of the children, but allowing both sides to have a relationship with their father is what's fair.

In NCsituations you are trying to spare your own children any pain at all at the complete expense of the OC. While you spare the children of the marriage the pain and confusion of the knowledge of what their father did, and yourself the difficulty of dealing with the arrangements, it's at the expense of the OC not having a father at all !! That is a much bigger price for the OC to pay. Not exactly looking at the children equally, is it?

Child support may be considered by many to be an adequate price for the MM to pay, but I disagree. The mother has to financially care for this child also. It's not like he's taking on the entire financial responsibility to make up for his absence in other areas. Financial responsibility is shared. The mother must bear the full responsibility for all else. Hardly a just or fair result, considering she didn't plan to have his child either. And I still don't see that the woman has the choice to walk away from the pregnancy. It didn't feel that way to me. Let's see, have an abortion? Not without physical risk and emotionally pretty devastating for me. Adoption? Carry the child and bear the physical burden only to be devastated emotionally to have to lose a child you carried and gave birth to? Some choices. I guess we have to agree to disagree on that one. I have learned a lot through this, I think at least we can help each other to think through the other side's position.

I just wish we all really could treat the children equally. It seems that the BS are guilty of the same one sidedness they accuse the OW of. They want their children to be put first, too. Maybe what I am trying to get at is that they really should be treated equally by the father. He shared in creating them, whether it was intended or not. My son was conceived in a marriage, but was unplanned. Is that any different? The relationship was ending and we didn't want another child right then. So because he didn't plan on it, does that make him morally less responsible? If a man says he wants you to end the pregnancy,and you don't,then too bad for you - and the child? I guess that is the reality of it. I just don't think it's right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The OC deserves a father in it's life as much as the children of the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes OC deserve to have a father in it's proper contexts, not at the price or expense loss, detriment, or embarrassment that results from some action or gain or SACRIFICE of destroying a family that was already in place.

OW when she made a choice to have this child in my opinion she didn't care about the devastation this would have caused the family of the people involved. Her only intent in my opinion again was to get the MM by any means necessary at the expense of hurting wife and children. If some would truly be honest with themselves this was there soul intent, I hear this to many times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will cause confusion and pain to the children of the marriage, true. But no more than the pain the OC will feel in not having a full time dad and growing up in a single parent household. It wouldn't be completely easy on any of the children, but allowing both sides to have a relationship with their father is what's fair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

How can you minimize the pain and agony a child born of of a marriage then say there pain will be no more than the pain of an OC. How can you begin to compare the two. Even the Creator knew this would be hardship on the married family this is why the Creator sent Hagar and son away.

Check this out the child of a marriage looks at his or her father as a roll model there savior etc
they were in there biological fathers life before another OC came in to existant and you have the gull to say the pain will be the same excuss my expression how dare you compare.

I will leave this one alone. I was getting ready to go there we can agree to disagree.No harm done.

<small>[ March 01, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

well it sure as heck wasnt my intent. I was lied to and more devistated than he that I was pregnant and I walked away and did not contact him or ask him to have contact with our child. I DIDNT want to leave my marriage and didnt ask him to leave his for our child.

He did, I was pretty content just where I was, at home with my husband and my children.