To MO5 if you read my post I said no harm done why are you so testy. I wasn't laughing at me mentioning rape, I was laughing about the statement below. I found that statement funny only because if it serve me, I remember you talked about this harmonious A you and OM had then you make the statement below that which was funny.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so I damn well expect him to do a good job, after all he invaded our lives and and family,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I found this statement funny!
But if I offended you, would you humbly except me apology and a (((((hug))))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont guess you have been paying attention,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Really I don't give a whole lot of weight to some OW stories here. Not being smart just being honest,my reason are, I feel some have a tendecy to glorify there A, like it was a match made in heaven at the expense of BS and family which was already established.

I do have the utmost respect for women like Joshmom and a few others here that are remorseful and I feel there sincereity.

These women don't go back and forth trying to justify there A they are very Honest from what I see. For those that are in recovery you can just tell by what they say you can feel there sincerity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by the way if you knew what you were talking about you would know I am 100 percent responsible for my bundle of joy, I love her dearly and couldn't imagine life with out her, No I dont blame om for her, on the contrary I thank him, she is awesome, and we love her very much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Once again I don't want to go back and forth with you. I can see this is a very sensitive subject for you, but when you use words like invade, one seems to think he did something without your permission.

Then on the other hand you say you are responsible for your bundle of joy and you thank him for it, not quoting but you said something along those lines this is very contradictory to me.

I know you also said later he decides he wants to be in your daughter life not quoting but something to that nature was said. The fact remains OM didn't invade anything without your permission meaning giving into to the A that'all all I'm saying.

Far as Rape, I honestly apologize if you were offeneded but when you said invaded your family life, that was my first thought. Then after I posted it hit me, how you would talk about how nice this A was and how the both of you meet weekly for lunch so forth and so on.

I just have the utmost respect for your H he is what I consider to be the hero in all this. I know the pain and it's no joke. Not flaming but look let's just squash this I don't what this to get ugly or out of hand OK (((((hugs)))))Once again my apology.

Lostone,
MALC told you it was me who led her to that "Old Testament" passage. I read it to my H two and one half years ago in tears.

We were married in a Catholic Church 29 years ago today.

The Catholic Church will not baptize a baby born out of wedlock. Very few will do that. They do not sanction children born that way. Ours did as we had a "now gone from the church" fake priest who did that for oc. I turned to my church for help and our whole family was slapped in the face by our huge parish by (1) baptizing oc in parish.....(2) printing it in our bulletin as if ow/H were married parents of oc.

It caused a great deal of embarassment to my family as well as our son who graduated from that church grade school.....if no one knew before that day...EVERYONE knew after.

Old or New Testament, I , because of my beliefs was reading that story from the Bible to help H understand that it is the wife who comes first after her H demeans her by allowing this to happen, that the oc and myself would benefit by following that scripture. That God would provide as he does for the kids of 911...although innocent, they are without bio-dad....or mom...and will go on.

My Husbands first obligation is to me, if he wants to keep our marriage.

Regardless of what you or MO5 think, H is sacrificing also. Hmmmmm....does he try and know and love oc?....Does he risk losing adult son who already knows him? does he risk losing the companionship of his siblings? Does he risk losing his life partner and be lonley because of a selfish mistake?

A lot on MM plate, don't you think?

We all have choices in life.

While you think MM should want flesh and blood, it doesn't always come down to wants.... heck, wants were already happening during A....."I want a love who focuses only on me because my spouse isn't giving me what I need at this time in my life" All done without thinking.

AFTER when given a chance to think, a man who truly wants his wife, will pay a pennance as does his wife....forever.

His being, give up ow's child to protect wife from further pain, wifes being, deal with the pain of this for years to come, without bringing it up every minute.

As far as oc...Oc doesn't even know what's going on.. Ow will have to deal w/that. WS and BS need to do what it takes if they are to remained married.
Their road is as long and hard as ow/oc!!!!
Please do not make remarks about "how can they turn their back on flesh and blood?"

Often it is because the flesh they had, took blood from existing family.

No one comes out a better person but rather all of us come out of this dramatically changed.

I personally am speaking from my own marriage and experiences. And from my own religion.

I love how ow, expect religion after doing the deed, like in saying children are a gift from God. Obviously MM doesn't think so or nothing would stop him, as you all say, right?

God in his mercy, may have allowed oc for all to grow.

Grow in His ways.

Stay in your marriage and follow his word from now on.

He promises not to turn on children. So all ow/oc can pray and depend on God for answers.

Hey, look at pops and fh.... prayer gave oc a loving and fabulous father! And restored the marriage!

Look at BTDT, married and quoting Gods' word, with oc grown and healthy! W/o bio-dad.

Look at tigger4jdt, married and raising oc w/H w/o bio-dad...

Just a few here, many more...especially K...married and raising oc in Gods' way....
So Lostone29 We have our own opinions and it's what keeps this subject alive.

And MO5, I'd rather have been raped, my H wouldn't have been so confused by all of this and would have immediately begun to help me.
Rape isn't funny. Neither is betrayal.
Both are things you may well never forget. Given the choice..........well rape would have been less painful in the aftermath because a stranger would have committed the crime. Not the man I love and spent more than half my life with....MY LIFE......
Blessings to you.
Debi

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

BY A DO YOU MEAN AFFAIR OR AGREEMENT, Because the affair has been over years ago, I am sorry I got involved, but yes we had a pretty harmonious agreement as far as the baby goes. but I still expect him to do a good job with my daughter, I dont find that funny, for the most part he and I are still harmonious, we can yell and scream one min, and the next min he is acting like my best friend. That I find funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

a reference to rape I find nothing funny about. it isnt a funny subject, I am not testy I am offended.
yeah I invited him in when he came to me asking, so invaded is a strong term, but I also ask before we made it known and disrupted all my kids lives, that he be sure his wife/family could handle it.
because even though he and I made amends and have worked throught that, I knew his wife may not have, and I have to think of my kids first, his job is to think of his wife. I in turn work very hard to be fair and polite to her, I have made my apologies and such to her and have talked through all that,, so I dont feel a need to go over it again or tell every one here how sorry I am, damage is done, I see no reason to sit around and mope about it and tell every one here how sorry I am, so if you dont think I am sincere, I am sorry, But it isnt my job to convince you if I am sincere, I was merely giving my opinion, and as any we can take or leave them.
Having lunch with our daughter was a mutual agreement between the two of us, I dodnt hink it that big of a deal, yesterday, I , my husband and om had lunch together, I didnt see any one in shock while we were out, we are all pretty capable of sitting and talking.

I dont sit on here and dwell on what the past because our lives right now consist of making the future better and decided how we raise our daughter,, the past is done, cant change it, but you sure as heck can make a better future.

MO5 I'd love to email you....Xarelel will pass our address if you will....
Debi

so since I am a ws and husband is bs, and we want to work on our marriage, does that mean if mm wants oc in his life, I should say no way , you have no rights.. ?

I do thank God for my daughter, but guess what so does mm.
wonder what that means. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
whats wrong with thanking god for a beautiful healthy child. How as a mother could you look at your baby and think any thing different than Thank you God ?

I believe God has helped in many ways including helping us settle our differences with om and his wife and work out something that makes us all happy and benefits our daughter.
God is good and you are so right, he has given us lots of answers and I pray will continue to do so.

WE dont have NC, although I can see how it would benefit people who do. , but my daughter needs to know her bio father and he feels the need to know her, so that isnt an option. we will have to make the best of it, I still dont see why any one would find a problem with adults working together to make that work.
But those of you who dont have contact as a bs, I can understand why you would not want that, but dont think you should be so hard on someone who does.
and pops and fh are going to court for support, there world as they know it could very well change, and I pray to God that om is a good person who will see the benefit of not interrupting graces life for his own reasons.
And if and when it happens, I bet they will feel invaded. [for lack of a better word. ]

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

MO5, got it thanks....

I wanted to comment on the scripture...it's my understanding that Sarah TOLD Abraham to sleep with Hagar so that he could have a child with her since she herself could not have any children at the time. It was only after Ishmael was born and God told Abram that he would let Sarai bare him a son (and she did) did she want Hagar and Ishmael cast away. And even though God DID tell Abraham to send Ishmael and Hagar away, He also told him and Hagar that He would provide for him. He made a great nation for Ishmael.

I dunno. Since Sarah told Abraham to take up with one of her maids (Hagar) I can't see how that is the most appropriate scripture. Please help me see if I am wrong. But the OC came before the child of their marriage and God did not deal harshly or unfairly with Abraham for committing adultry...in fact he blessed Abraham, Sarah, AND the OC.

Genesis22:12 And he said do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him;for now I know that you fear God,since you have not withheld your son, your only son,from Me.

NCFU, Old Testament again....notice how God said only son? Not taking into account Abrahams son with Haggar?

I only used it for direction when we were in so deep I couldn't see a way out of oc mess!!

There is nothing I have read in the new testament about this special situation...Perhaps no one betrayed back then?

love
Debi

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Gemini:The Catholic Church will not baptize a baby born out of wedlock. Very few will do that. They do not sanction children born that way. Ours did as we had a "now gone from the church" fake priest who did that for oc. I turned to my church for help and our whole family was slapped in the face by our huge parish by (1) baptizing oc in parish.....(2) printing it in our bulletin as if ow/H were married parents of oc.

Gemini - My son was baptized in a Catholic church, I have been to MANY baptisms that the parents were not married. This is not true AT ALL. Maybe in your church, but none that I know of. And a very good friend of mine is a priest, and he would have done the baptism without hesitation if I'd asked him. What I NEVER would have done is go to xMM's church to do it, or post something in their bulletin. That's just spiteful.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]so since I am a ws and husband is bs, and we want to work on our marriage, does that mean if mm wants oc in his life, I should say no way , you have no rights.. ?"

Mo5- If your H, (BS), wanted nc even though OM wanted contact, would you abide by H's wishes to save the marriage? I guess that is the same situation as the BW not wanting contact between WS and OC. Did you ever have to work that through with your husband? Or was he always ok with allowing contact as you rebuilt your marriage? I am sorry if you already explained this but I don't have so much time to go back and read all the posts or threads.

I am still really confused about what to do, but at least I understand more about how painful this is for the BS and the motivation behind them not wanting contact. I still tend to feel instinctively that the OC and MM should have the opportunity to have a relationship if he so wants. And the opportunity to rebuild his marriage if he is sorry about cheating and truly wants to. Just not sure it can work. Mo5 and others with contact that worked- what was the key or way you handled the pain and stress to make it functional? Thanks again for posting your responses with respect, as I know there are a lot of strong feelings involved for everyone.

God was Angry with Sara for giving her handmaiden to Abraham because God told Sara she would concieve and Sara didn't wait on God.

If a BS & WS decide on contact and the situation is conducive by all means but when BS & WS who prefere NC that's were the grief come in on this board it seems we are ridiculed for taking a stance that's better for our situation.

I have not question no BS who decides contact with OC, As I can recall it's OW who continue to question BS when they take a stance on NC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>I have not question no BS who decides contact with OC, As I can recall it's OW who continue to question BS when they take a stance on NC.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't question BW - I question xMM. HE is the one that ultimately decides. I've said it before - if he really wanted to see him - come hell or high water - HE WOULD. I refused to let it be by sneaking around. He did see him until I said that, and that if he was to have C, then to be consistent about it - if it was an hour a week - make it be the same hour, and that there would be no sneaking around about it. He hasn't seen him since. HIS choice. That was 5 years ago.

lost

in the state I live in mm can sue for paternity rights if he so chooses even though husband is on b certificate and mm did not openly acknowledge child till she was over a year old.
so I had no choice about contact marriage or not. although mm would have probably stayed gone if I threatened or made him, but she is his bio daughter and husband and I were concerned about when she gets older if we lied to her.
so we made the decision together to let him in her life,

we just didnt know how difficult it would be dealing with his wife. and I will be honest it is very hard to see your baby girl whom you have adored from day one, leave with mm and his wife, people who said they wanted her dead, people who turned there back on her, to come and say oops we sorry we love her now, it is unsettling to say the least. But I am trying and as an overprotective mother boy is it hard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Because my husband and myself love my daughter as her parents we are strong enough to fix her marriage and still allow contact with om for the childs sake.
I would rather her know him and decide for her self , than not give her a choice to know.
My marriage on the other hand is doing great and we are making amazing progress. My husband is handling more of the decisions with mm and that is a blessing for me. Because mm doesnt pitch a fit when he doesnt get his way with my husband.

by the way mm is much older and D is so much closer to my husband, I think she always will be.
if I had to do it over again there are some things I would do differently. but for the most part tryingt o work together for the good of the child is best if the parties involved can be mature about it. That is highly unlikely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

by the way lost you asked the key to dealing with this.
Just grin and bear it, and bite your lip alot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Learn to speak up if it is an health issue or related issue with your child, but other wise bite your lip and say nothing. alays be polite, even when she is being a *****. Trust me you will come out better in the end.
Try and be nice, after all the bw will be with your child alone on occasion most likely. You want to feel safe with that.
and if you can convince all parties to get counceling for the sake of child, wondeful, I was not able to do that.

Gemini - - The Catholic Church will not baptize a baby born out of wedlock. Very few will do that. They do not sanction children born that way.

This statement is not true. I am familiar with many situations where the very opposite is true. All children are God's children.

I have found that when the situation gets out of hand between the adults involved, they begin to do things to eachother out of their anger and pain. Once this happens it is very difficult to turn back. It usually gets easier to be vindictive on the next turn rather than make amends and move on.

I am not catholic so this doesnt have anything to do with me. But I dont see how it changes any thing, doesnt make a child less important. my belief is children have no sins, god will take care of them reguardless. YOu dont have to agree, I am not asking any one to.

I didnt find God after the fact, I have the same beliefs I had before, I know I was wrong I am not dumb.
However If you remember gem, I have experienced that betrayel more times than most here, No he didnt have an oc, but he certainly had his fair share of ow, I am not new to those feelings. How sad you would rather have been raped than made a bad choice, and You and your husband of 29 years have done just that worked through it. so who is to say he wouldnt work through it as well, You on the other hand have never cheated on your husband good for you, But my husband didnt have the same feelings as you, because he had made many many bad choices in previous years, so a bit of a difference. My husband and I have been recovering for a while now and feel pretty good about our choices, and are doing well, so I dont think we are doing so bad.

cmiranda,
I am sad to say that you are right, most times when it gets out of hand with some adults it keeps on getting bad, we experienced that lately, but I am happy to report, we have all come up with a situation that makes us all happy, I feel as though a thousand lbs have been lifted off my shoulders. AND I THANK GOD FOR THAT.
we managed to work out our difficulties for the good of our child, that is a blessing for her.
My husband[ the hero] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> has been very helpfull with that.

Malc
Your point is still lost on me and I agree it is better left unsaid.
curious though, why do you want a husband who has been out of your life for so many years, I mean he moved on with ow and left you, several years ago, why dont you just move on and look for other fish in the sea ? Not flame just dont understand thats all. I think I read he left ow, good for you, but he still isnt with you is he? I could have you confused with someone else, if I do sorry, I am terrible with names.

JoshMom, CMiranda and MO5,
I was only going by what our pastor had told me at our former parish, that he would not baptize oc in our church.
NOT the priest who counseled us, but the pastor...
After that was printed a small retraction was published with ow's married name as the only mistake made.
Soon after "fake priest" was removed and has since had other charges filed against him. Trial is next year and I have been deposed. I may be used as a sympathetic witness to his other charges.

ALSO, our sons' friend had a baby w/a girlfriend 4 years ago. The family had a hard time finding a church who would baptize baby. Their own would not, as my former parish would not, and they ended up going to a church they didn't belong to to get it done.

So I may have been wrong, just going by what I knew till now.

As far as rape, MO5, I was trying to say I'd rather be raped than live through what I have these past few years. It would have been easier to "hate" a stranger for doing this. Rather to have this pain at the hands of my own husband . See?

Given a choice, I wouldn't have either.

Also CMiranda, what did you mean about things getting out of hand? Did you mean ow here? The announcement was from pain? (in bulletin?)

Hadn't she already caused enough torture for all of us w/o that announcement? No excuse after all that was done behind my back by priest, H ,and ow.

BTW we were at a graduation party the night before baptism. Ow had sent ME and S an invite, not H....fake priest called H on cell to see if we were coming!
Last, I bought the baby an Italian gold baby pin w/a small gold crucifix to wear at ceremony and dropped it off at the rectory earlier that day. From Dad and Debi. Ow called H next day and said "No more gifts" .....what's up w/that? Hurt? Pain? Give me an answer, won't you?

love
Debi

hey takes all kinds you have a crazy ow you dealt with and I get a crazy wife.
I dont blame you for being upset, our announcement in the paper stated my husband and my self welcome a new baby girl, no mention of other man ever.

but a while back my daughter wanted to put her in a baby pagent and om said NO way unless of coure it is announced that she is his and my baby, and we use his last name, I said nah bad idea and that was that.
he now agrees it was a bad idea, after all she deserves my husbands name because he has been her daddy from day one and always will be special in his heart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I dont know very much about the catholic life, But I am sure what you say is true, I know people who had troule getting married, seems logical, there would be problems with baptism as well.
the gift of the pin was very sweet, my daughter has a very special bracelet om's daughter bought for her, I will make sure she has it forever.

I always loved christening gowns, however, we dont baptise our babies, so I never had an excuse to have one . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

and yes GEM i understand.

Dont have any answers, but wouldnt it be great if we find them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />