I'm curious how much you all know (BS) about the OW and the affair? I found out 5 months ago and I have so many questions? OW lives very far away so I will never bump into her. I want to know everything. Husband thinks this will be damaging to our marriage, so does therapist. He has told me more than he planned to tell me, but I want to know details about everything? HOw much did you find out, and was it hard to get over knowing all the details? Was it hard to get over not knowing all the details for those who didn't get a lot of info? Do any of you feel insecure by what you did find out (OW looks, their sex life, etc.), as if the OC isn't bad enough?

fortheboys,

Well, I know what 3 of my H's xOW look like, and asked a few questions about "what" they did, but that was just me personally. I knew 2 of the xOW personally, which I feel is more painful than NOT knowing them. The third, I found a picture of her when we were getting a new bed, and it had fallen behind the old headboard. On only one of the others did I ask about her looks, and that's been it. I think that I agree, to an extent with your H and counselor. But it has to be personal to you. If you knew the "details" would they haunt you more than what's bothering you now? Which is more important in your mind right now, knowing all the details, or getting past that part of the A, and begin healing from here. Just some things to think about before pressing the issue.

Tigger

Ahh, she has no middle name. She drives a red mini-van, he forgets the make. She has no hobbies, maybe she does? She reads no books. She has no pets that he can remember. She didn't grow up anywhere. She doesn't take her coffee any particular way.

She may be a Democrat, but maybe not. She may have someone watch her children, but who knows who? Her husband may be abusive, but who knows how. If she charmed him with her details, he forgot.

She was "plain and simple." OP, dontcha feel special? He really took the time to listen? I would hitch my wagon to such a man. By the way OP, divide his W-2 by quarters...and you know him now...he's the guy who cringes at your name. Such a charming way he remembers your "love"...with dry heaves and a Tums.

fortheboys(ftbs), I disagree with tigger4jdt. She thinks details will haunt you.

I disagree. My OW also lived out of our state when I found out. I flew to her state for a week-end.

I would like to share privately. My d-day was 1996. I'm still married today. I do love my H.

It would be nice to talk on the phone.

Send me a private message if wish contact.

Wishing you well, ember

The first Ow was my so called best friend. So i already knew everything about her.

The next few were ones he meet at bars and parties. Know nothing of them.

The one he has a child with, was 19 (he was 29), part mexican, meet her at work. The really slutty type. Supposedly couldn't have kids. He told me great detail about their sex life. Makes me sick when I see her these days.

Didn't know anything about the one after, just that he was with her for a weekend. Went to work on a thursday night and didn't come home till saturday. No phone call or anything. Left me with 4 kids and no car. Came home with hickeys and tried to lie about it.

Last one that I know about, he meet at work. She was engaged. Has 2 kids. And liked to call him sweetlips. He wanted me to watch her kids while he went out with her and to use my van so he could move in. Said her kids are the same age as our youngest and would make great playmates.

My H's ow wrote him many letters. He being sentimental, I guess, he saved them in of all places his desk at work. He traveled, that's how he met her on one of his trips to another state.
I had to get something from his office one day took advantage of the situation, found them then read them.
It wasn't easy reading these love letters to my H where this young twit was planning to marry my H of 19 years. this was after I told him if he left me for her he would have a lot of baggage, because he was going to be custodial parent to our 4 older children. She thought she wanted to be a "step-mother" to my eldest son, who was 7 years her junior. Ha!
Anyway, I know more about her than she wishes and probably know more about her than she knows about me.
Do I regret finding those letters and reading them? No. Did it hurt to read them? Yes. Would I read them again given the opportunity?Yes
"Know thy enemy" is my motto.
It has 10 years since then. We are still together and have no idea what she is doing. Or her child. We have no contact per my H's insistance.
For lurkers, that is our choice and our right. I won't walk in your shoes, don't try to walk in mine, they just might pinch.
Texasgirl

Ember, you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I disagree with tigger4jdt. She thinks details will haunt you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I said was:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ....it has to be personal to you. If you knew the "details" would they haunt you more than what's bothering you now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was asking a question for her to answer about her own feelings. A question that I had to ask myself. Note the first part of my quote, it has to be your own personal feelings. I never said that it would haunt her. I said that she needed to decide for herself how much she needs to know.

How much do I know about OW... TONS!
More than even she knows that I know.

I know she has petty theft in her background... Domestic Violence peppers her history with men...
She has given birth to 3 children, all different fathers, and only has Joint Physical Custody of the youngest, our Lil Bit. She gave her first son up for adoption until the father stepped in and took him... 2nd son was removed from her custody because she failed to protect him (at the tender age of 4 yrs old) from violent beatings by her then boyfriend...
(I know all this because of having a background check done on her...)

I know what she looks like... I see her generally twice a week. (We have Joint Physical Custody, with 51%+ each week) I admit I was astonished at how she looked when I first saw her... SHOCKED <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> is more the word... I had been told that until she got p and I lost weight, we were the same size... Friends of H told me that was NOT true, she was ALWAYS bigger than I was! One of H's friends even called H a liar to his face in front of me over the whole thing!

I know how the A started. I know where the "acts" took place... etc...
Yes, I asked... and I got mostly bits and pieces... UNTIL my H finally gave in to FULLY committing to our M again.

Knowing the "dirty little details" is a double edged sword, for me.
I now have a better grasp for my H's thought pattern during that time frame... but I also went through a period of having the "movies" run rampant in my brain.
Occasionally, I still see the "clips" in my mind... but I dismiss them. He is still here, with me.. Our M is different than it was then... our bond is closer... We have a renewed commitment to each other... BOTH of us have changed... and we are BETTER for it.

As Tigger pointed out, it is a PERSONAL choice.
I can't tell you what is best for you or your mental state. I can only tell you how I handled it.

Its a bumpy road... but what worth fighting for is easy???

Prayers for you, ftb...

Thanks for the replies.
EMBER - I am new here - How do I send a private message? I would like to share more and find out how you have been handling this for so long. Sometimes I wonder how I can make it through another day.

I agree that it is a personal decision on how much a person can handle. I guess my question is whether or not any of you still feel jealous of OW? For those of you who know what she looks like, you have an advantage over me. I just have a ghost. But from discussions, OW is beautiful (tall, thin, blond, former model). How many of us feel like we can compete with a woman in a magazine? I know my H is with me, but the thought of him being with a woman like that is difficult to handle. I also have movies running through my head of what they did together in bed, but a lot is speculation? Is it better to know those sordid details, or do they make it worse? Do you ever stop thinking of the two of them together?

tigger4jdt, Sorry, I misunderstood your posts.
I just do not understand how a person, or a marriage, can heal without the truth.

To all others, this is only my experience from life.

I can honestly say, I would not have stayed if I had never met OW in person.I have great respect for her, having me as a guest in her house for a week-end. She set me free.

How can a person be set free if the truth is not known, and a doubt always exists?

Like many of you, I had a ghost until I met OW in person.

You are all correct. It is a personal choice.

I find the A was not about physical looks. Physical beauty means nothing without emotion. We all loved ET. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

One day does not pass that I do not think about it.

I agree will Stacia_Lee's post above, paragragh 5. I could not have said it better for my own situation. (sorry, I don't know how to copy it here.)

Wishing you all well,

ember

H-mmmm. Well she was a person "who had absolutely nothing in life. She came from a neglectful family. Was moved from one relative to another while growing up. Never knew when she came home if her parents were letting her stay or moving her." Oh, and by the way, "we're just friends" (to quote my WS) She's 26 years younger than my WS; she was 21 and he was 47. They met at their 12 step meetings as she is a recovering alcoholic and my WS is a recovering addict and alcoholic. I have spoken with her once. She and I were both quite calm and collected during the call. I have seen her once, close up. She looks really young, has long blonde hair, and is a medium build. (I've struggled with my weight since kindergarten. Mostly lost the battle!) She's a smoker. My step-daughter told me that she's nice, but very opinionated about everything. My WS doesn't know what he saw in her, but that didn't stop the affair. According to WS "She's lazy, does nothing around the house, and thinks the world owes her." They went to a hotel the first time they had sex and then had it at the apartment where she was staying with a friend. WS feels she "trapped" him and may have gotten pregnant deliberately. I wanted the details. I still have details I want to hear about, even if it hurts. (D-Day was 4-2002)In my case, I think what I imagine is probably worse than knowing the truth. The truth hurts, alot. But at least I have an idea of what I was dealing with. And I want to know what was going on in my WS's mind, so as to be alert for possible relapse behaviors. Also, all of the lying made me feel so crazy!! Some of hearing the truth helps me confirm some of what I suspected but was being denied by my WS. As for getting the pictures out of my mind... They're less frequent than they were at first, but they still happen. It hurts so bad to think about him getting all turned on, with that "special look" he gets in his eyes before he climaxes. (Hope this doesn't offend anyone!) That's the part that hurts the worst for me. I thought that "look" was part of something special shared by just the two of us. He did say that he had problems getting an erection every time. Oh shucks!! Part of wanting to know, for me, is that I don't want him or her to have an little secrets they share that shut me out or give her an edge over me. Since we are dealing with an OC, contact will be an ongoing issue. Whew! Guess this question pushed a few of my buttons!

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: lilymarie ]</small>

for,
IMO, it's easier to "forget" in the long run if you don't know much to begin with.

I know too much. Waaaaaaaaaay too much. XOW was a close "friend"(NOT), or so I thought. Not only do I wish I knew less, I wish she knew less about me. It was a horrible violation. She housesat for us, so she could have read my diary, looked through our undies, and anything else she wanted. She took some of our things. I'm grossed out. I could go on and on but I won't.

Concentrate on your marriage, not XOW.
Good luck!
J, in recovery 5y and glad I stayed

Dear FTB,

Good question. I never knew exOW during the 7-year long affair even though she lived just a couple of miles from us at the time. Now we all live thousands of miles apart.

Since D-day we have flown out to where exOW and Precious live 3 or 4 times for visits so I know exOW fairly well. She and I even emailed back and forth quite a bit working out a working relationship. We will never be friends although that is what she would like--one big happy, extended family. Ewwwwww! She is kind to me on our visits, she speaks well of us to OC, she makes every effort to make the visits successful even offering to let us stay at her home and she would go stay with her parents and let us care for OC in her own home. Too icky for me and I can't believe she would let me prowl through her home--maybe it's because she knows I wouldn't.

About the sexual aspects of the affair I don't know a lot and I don't ask. The movies in my head were very strong right from the beginning and I didn't want to reinforce it. Mr. J was experiencing impotence in our married life due to anti-anxiety meds. I know that after awhile it began to happen in the affair also. I know that she said she didn't want anything from him but that she got needy and clingy (and disguised it as "true love") very quickly. I know that Mr. J says sex at home was better. I am more giving and open and adventerous. She was quickly angry that she got very limited amounts of his time and he says sex is pretty bad when you know you are going to get up and go home as soon as it is over and she is really pissed about the fact. I know he regrets the affair, doesn't understand how he let such a thing happen and continue, and that if he had all the magic power in the world he would go back and never repeat the affair. That's enough for me.

MJ

FTB,

Like Jenny, I know waaaaay too much about the OW and their affair. I found letters and cards that the OW wrote to my H. I was insatiable in the beginning. I wanted to know every detail about everything, especially sex. My H did not want to tell me because he thought it would hurt more and quite frankly, he was embarrassed talking about these things to his wife.

We went to therapy and I told the counsellor that I had this need to know the details but my H thought it was not healthy. The counsellor told us that my H should answer any and every question that I had as honestly as he could even though it made him uncomfortable. He said that it was important for me to clear my mind of all doubts and questions.

But, the counsellor also told me that I should only ask questions until I felt satisfied. If I found myself becoming more upset by the answers then it was time to stop. He said that most of the time we are searching for a reason -- but the hardest thing to accept is that there is NO reason. Nothing your spouse can say will make you accept the fact that they cheated.

I found this advice was helpful. At one point, I made a conscious effort to STOP questioning.

It is truly a blow to your ego when the OW is physically more attractive. But, I have found out that there really is more to it than the physical looks like others have said. We, as woman, tend to judge along those lines. Men have different standards so it is not always about looks.

But, also as others have said, what was really hard for me was the thought of the special little things we shared as a couple being shared with the OW. To deal with that situation, we have now created our own "special" ways of showing affection during intimacy. My H makes a point of saying that this is something special we share because of our love for each other.

It is definitely an individual choice, but don't allow yourself to be driven crazy by thoughts of what they did together. Try to focus on the reality that he is with you -- so regardless of whether you feel not as attractive, or not as sexually exciting -- he must see something in you that is worth keeping and saving.

The gremlins will fade with time and with effort. Work on forgiveness and that will help to focus you on the future. The actions that took place between your H and the OW were those of a different man in a different circumstance -- work on getting past those old days and concentration on better days ahead.

Good luck to you.
marie

Thanks for all the info and the advise. My desire to know all the details is insatiable right now. I have a lot of the same feelings mentioned - don't like the idea of there being anything that I don't know; I feel like she has the upper hand over me because she shared something with my husband that I wasn't a part of; want to know if he did the same things in bed with her; etc. My husband thinks if he tells me everything about their sex life, that it will ruin ours because I won't be able to do the same things in bed with him without seeing the two of them together in my head. I'm trying to make sense of this whole mess. I guess I think if I know enough details I will be able to figure out what was going on in his head when he was with her, but he can't even seen to figure that out!

EMBER - you said to send you a private message - I don't know how but I set up an email account on yahoo. If you want to talk privately you can email me at lola19652003@yahoo.com
I would love to hear your story and how you are doing now.

For the boys,
I don't have long to post, but wanted to tell you about something a few memebers have done on this board.

I too was just like you, totally insatiable when it came to the details. I wanted it all, positions, places, quality, length, everything! And yes, the movies played over and over in my head after he told me. But now, they are like 30 second commericals once in a long while.

So, like the others said, it's up to you whether or not you can deal with those details over time, and let them go so the marriage can progress. If not you'll end up like another friend of mine who has obsessed for years over the sexual part of her husband's affair. She couldn't handle it.

I hope you find which kind of person you are and proceed from there.

If you find you are the type that can handle it... then here's a suggestion.

Sit down and talk to your husband and tell him that it is becoming unbearable to NOT know. Tell him you are making up the stories in your mind and it's not allowing you to get past the affair and onto the road of recovery. Then here comes the good part:

Propose to have DISCLOSURE WEEKEND. It's a weekend the two of you go away somewhere if possible. That way you don't associate any bad memories that may happen in your home. We couldn't go away, but vowed to not speak of the affair in our bed to avoid "tainting" our love space.

Anyway, in preparation for the weekend you prepare every question you ever wanted to know about the affair.. Where, when, dates, times, how, positions, pleasure, pain, outings, dinner, movies, flowers, presents, phone calls, etc.

He in turn vows to answer ALL of your questions, openly and honestly.

You vow to not be angry at any of the answers realizing, it is all in the past and from the moment the weekend is over you two will officially be in the future. Some couples even write all the questions down and burn them at the end of the weekend.

You must hold up on your vow to not be angry. You are going to want to cry, and possibly scream. I cried, but I cried in his arms. I allowed him to comfort me. I didn't cry in anger, I didn't scream, and I didn't persecute him for his actions. I made it safe for him to tell me.

We connected, he apologized, i forgave, we moved forward together. It was cleansing.

Oh, one last thing. One of the ways I got my H to agree to the weekend was ... I told him that in our contact with OW I didn't want her to ever have power over me. And all she had to do was drop a bomb on me about something the two of them shared and I would be devastated and embarassed. I told him he was the only one that had the power to prevent her from hurting me further. And he could choose to exercise that power or not. He did.

And she did try to hurt me with her words very soon after our weekend. She showed up with some pictures of him naked that she had taken (chest down and get this I could see his wedding ring in the picture, yuck). I cooly and calmly said, "thank you, Stephen told me about them, I was hoping you would return them. By the way, I have the nude pictures Stephen took of you, he asked me to give them to you, let me go get them." If you could have seen her face when I handed her those pictures. Ah the joy of VICTORY.

She tried a few more times, and each and everytime, I would say, "Oh yeah, Stephen told me about that..." And I'd finish the story for her. It used to piss her off.

Good luck,
I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Z. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Quick suggestion-
When you find out some stuff that brings up those yucky movies for you, create a new movie to replace it. If you have a movie about them in a particular spot, then go and claim that spot for your marriage by creating a new memory with your husband. The same for a sexual position or song or whatever. Force your mind to see a good movie. And don't expect that it will be automatic. Even after you create a good memory, you may still think about or see the bad sometimes. But you can overcome...

fortheboys, if you really want my story, please look up all my pasts posts.

Many on this board diagree with many of my opinions.

My d-day was in 1996. H and I still working on our marriage.

ember

ZEBRABABY - thanks for the idea about the disclosure weekend. I really liked it. My husband unfortunately did not. He seems to think that the more details I know the more I will obsess over them. Did your H disclose details of their sex life (positions, what they did, etc.)? My husband does not want to do that, and therapist agreed with him even though I want to know everything. I find I keep asking the same questions over and over again. Did you do that? I don't know why. I do think I'm going to write down all my questions as you suggested, and maybe when things are a little calmer and we both feel more secure in our relationship he will feel more comfortable answering them. Or maybe then I won't need the anwers!

EMBER - thanks for the post. I did look up your story on old posts. I would welcome any input you can give me on these boards.

I want to know some details-like how (timewise) did it take place-maybe so as to be aware if it were it to happen again.

Also I feel that some of the thoughts I have are likely WORSE than the truth!?