adgirl I didn't come here to fight or to defend the relationship. You don't know what I feel whether it be remorse or not. I came here to post about my child, not the emr.

No I don't know about your remorse, but I do know that this is a Marriage BUILDERS forum.

Twilight:
I'm sorry you are going through this. Without hurting anyone's feelings until someone has been in your shoes they have no clue where you are coming from. That goes for either the bs or ow. Emotions are really high on both ends. I've been a BS, and I am now the xow pregnant. The affair was a huge mistake and although it was so wrong.....I would never ever disrespect someone for keeping a child no matter what the circumstances. Adoption is another story if the mother is not able to care for her child. It's not like giving up a cat or a dog. Maybe the uh does not have choices in this, but he had the choice to have the A. No matter what your (uh and ow) are taking some type of chance. My xmm will have nc with my child. He will pay child support. HIs choice. His loss. Yes his loss. The up on this, I don't have to deal with his w nor do I have to worry about making any decisions with him regarding my child. Twilight I agree with you it is abandonment as well. The person who said it earlier was very kind on how she said you would have to deal with this later on in life on why his dad is not around. Ya know this is the MB forum and there are some other sites you can go too. You have every right as much as W does to be hurt and upset. Maybe for different reasons, but you have feelings too. I'm sure the lady who commented to you about where is your daughter while you are mad at xmm, really did not mean that. If she has kids she knows you can have kids and still be fuming at someone. She is emotional for her own reasons. Feel free to email me if you would like. My email address is: marysway@cox.net.

. I'm sure the lady who commented to you about where is your daughter while you are mad at xmm, really did not mean that. If she has kids she knows you can have kids and still be fuming at someone. She is emotional for her own reasons

Actually I really did mean that. Because my point is, twilight, according to what i read on this post, is not thinking about OC, or W's feelings- but only of herself and what she will do, when she took part in 1/2 this mess.
Yes, I am emotional for my own reasons, (probably because my ex-h's ow is selfish in the same way, only thinking of what "she" should do, without thinking of the havoc wreaked on all lives,) but if you read through other posts of mine- like to
ex-ws's like hopeful person, jen brown, or kily, you will see that I am very kind - because I can tell they so desperately want to turn their lives around- and because I am guilty of making mistakes in my life, so why judge them for past mistakes? But in this case, I don't see twilight as caring about all that- and she herself said I have no idea what she feels and doesn't- she is right, but like I said, this is a marriage BUILDERS forum.

adgirl, I am mistaken. You did mean it. Yes you have a right to be emotional. That is why I said it. But you know what....she just had a baby. She is emotional. No matter what mess it is, it sounds like only one person is taking the responsibilty to this....her. She is having to take him to court for cs. He started a realtionship with this child, then deserted the child. How else can she see it? I on the other hand know my xmm will have no contact and I've already accepted that. That does not mean when I'm up in the middle of the night and have to go to work the next day and get my twins ready for daycare that I won't be mad at xmm too. But your right...this is the MB board. That is why I told her to email me and I would give her other websites. BTW....I don't think your mean or anything. I just think your hurt and angry and this girl is not want you wanted to read about on your board.

Regarding "Abandonment of the OC" issues...

I'm not sure I agree with that as much as I am forced to consider the entire FAMILY that the WS abandoned in order to have the affair in the first place!

In order to rebuild the family the WS needs to get back to basics and fix what went wrong before the OP ever came into the picture. The OP is not supposed to be in the picture!

The only thing that keeps OPs in the picture is the OC--IF the recovering couple can handle it.

What OPs can't control, they have to let go. I think using the word abandonment is like trying to say that the OC is entitled to the same emotional support as the WSs original family and I fundamentally disagree with that.

In order to rebuild the marriage, the WS is forced to abandon the affair and if the OP insists on having emotional rights because suddenly there is a child, it's unhealthy for the OP AND the child. You can't force someone to be emotionally attached to your baby! And why would you even want to? I kind of think that is more abusive than the actual affair. Bringing a child into the world through an affair might as well be considered child abuse in itself!

If we are misusing God's original intent for sex, then we are abusing our bodies and others' bodies as well as the innocent children who are conceived in this manner.

You're free and single. There are a few good men in the world who would embrace you and your child. Now your job is to raise your kid and hopefully a really good man will come into your life who is open to that challenge.

If the MM is hiding behind his wife and abandoning your child, as you described, then that's on you honey, as Dr.Laura would say, you picked him! This is who you have chosen to father your child... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB]Regarding "Abandonment of the OC" issues...

!

In order to rebuild the marriage, the WS is forced to abandon the affair and if the OP insists on having emotional rights because suddenly there is a child, it's unhealthy for the OP AND the child. You can't force someone to be emotionally attached to your baby! And why would you even want to? I kind of think that is more abusive than the actual affair. Bringing a child into the world through an affair might as well be considered child abuse in itself!

I agree with part of what you say. I feel 100% why push something on someone who is non emotional over the child. That is abusive. Bringing any child into this world weather it be through a single fling or affair or what ever is not abuse. I am a hard working women I am already raising twins from previous marriage I've done it all. I take good care of my kids and I don't need xmm to help with the emotional end. I can do that just fine. It took two to get the child where it is though. I don't care what the circumstances are. It took two. I agree though a mm does not have to be involved. Who would want someone raising there kids that can't even take responsiblity for there own actions? I made a huge mistake but owned up to it. For some reason a child was put in my care and all I know is I have to do the right thing. If that means that MM gets a swift kick in the butt from his wife if he ever tells her, I'm sorry. I'm the one taking the responsibility for the child.
Also, I agree with with what what was said by someone earlier about joint custody. I don't think I could handle someone women who is not invovled but only by being married to the father telling what is what and it will be done. My xh would never have his wife do that and I would never handle that with any father of my kids no matter the circumstances that it happened. The first and most important thing is the welfare of the child. If the xmm must see the child it has to be on mutual grounds with mutual resolution. It's only common sense that if xmm man is involved so is his w. But not be the leader of the child. How hard for everyone involved. I guess I'm glad my xmm has chose not to be emotionally involved. Makes it easier all the way around. I think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">adgirl, I was not chastising you. Trust me I have emotions going through my every harmone right now. I did not put you down at all I don't think and if you took it that way I'm sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by adgirl48:
<strong>BTDT, You have a way with words!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> since I was criticized and just called emotional for my "chastising" I really appreciate you saying my feelings so eloquently.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">adgirl, I was not chastising you. Trust me I have emotions going through my every harmone right now. I did not put you down at all I don't think and if you took it that way I'm sorry.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was talking more about josh's mom, except the emotional part- and that kind of came across wrong..but I didn't feel you put me down.

<small>[ September 11, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Also, I agree with with what what was said by someone earlier about joint custody. I don't think I could handle someone women who is not invovled but only by being married to the father telling what is what and it will be done

But the wife is not just "some woman"- the wife is innocent as far as the affair goes, just like the OC. Now in my circumstances, I knew that I had to either accept the OC and being forever involved and forever reminded of the affair or I had to choose not to. I knew I couldn't choose to do it, then hold it against ex-WH for the rest of his life. So I chose to, but my ex chose to go to his OC instead and drop the marriage. And the OW admitted to me that she wanted my ex because of the baby. She needed a daddy for her little girl and she did not care about my needs. This is the case of OW that it just would not have worked. Well, and my ex's addiction to porn that I just found out about AFTER the divorce kind of put a kink in plans too.

But the wife is not just "some woman"- the wife is innocent as far as the affair goes, just like the OC. Now in my circumstances, I knew that I had to either accept the OC and being forever involved and forever reminded of the affair or I had to choose not to. I knew I couldn't choose to do it, then hold it against ex-WH for the rest of his life. So I chose to, but my ex chose to go to his OC instead and drop the marriage. And the OW admitted to me that she wanted my ex because of the baby. She needed a daddy for her little girl and she did not care about my needs. This is the case of OW that it just would not have worked. Well, and my ex's addiction to porn that I just found out about AFTER the divorce kind of put a kink in plans too.

adgirl, I know what your saying. It's not like he left you married someone had a child left her then came back to you. OR something like that. I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of post where the wife has taken full charge of the decissions and dealing with the xow. I don't think it's all that right. Because of the actions of the mm as well as the ow this child is here. It's still the same as if my x got remarried and the his wife wanted to make all the decisions. It's my child. I do feel that the w should be apart of the childs life and all if part of the mm, but how would you like the ow if married to your xh coming and telling you what to do with your kids? Not one w would stand for that. Did that make sense? I hope so. I just think that because of the fact that the bw is still married to uh they have taken charge of the situation and made all the choices. I'd never ever answer to the w of my xmm. Not in a million years. I can't stand her, but if xmm chose to have a life with this child and his wife is involved, I'd never do anything to turn that away. At least his father would be a part of his life. I don't know if that made sense, and hopefully no offensive, but that is how I look at it.

I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of post where the wife has taken full charge of the decissions and dealing with the xow. I don't think it's all that right. Because of the actions of the mm as well as the ow this child is here. It's still the same as if my x got remarried and the his wife wanted to make all the decisions. It's my child. I do feel that the w should be apart of the childs life and all if part of the mm, but how would you like the ow if married to your xh coming and telling you what to do with your kids?

I am not offended, but we may have to agree to disagree because I am totally on the other end of this spectrum. Your question, how would you like the OW to tell me what to do with my kids, is comparing apples to oranges. The original W did not ask for OW to be brought into the situation, or the OC. In my situation, ex-WH would have had to go NC with OW and allowed me to handle the visitation pickups. This is bc NC would HAVE to be established between OW and ex-WH for marriage to work out. I find this an extremely difficult situation and admire anyone who has done it and done it well. I know I would have loved and cared for the OC because it isn't OC's fault, but I don't know how I would have done it. IT would have been hard. The W should not make ALL the decisions- the BW and WH should use the POJA to see what is best. And work on the marriage first.

adgirl, I can agree with you to agree to disagree. I guess you can I'm use to taking control and I use that word control of my kids. My kids mean everything to me and feel like it's up to ME to make sure they are taken care of. I am also use to it. Good example. Xh sees his kids and all, but they don't come first. In Jan., both my kids had there tonsiels and adnoids out on the same day. He took the day off that they had surgery and that was it. I took a week and a half off because they could not go back to day care until then. I'm just use to it. But adgirl, I can agree to disagree with you and still respect your feelings.

I think we are just thinking on different sides or levels. I am not doubting that you are taking care of your kids and that you want to take care of your kids. What I AM saying is that I would have never tried to replace OW in OC's life, or be their "mother" unless the OW chose to leave the situation (see my signature- she chose to give up her 1st son except every other weekend). BUT I was the wife first, and anything my ex-WH would have negotiated with OW, would have been with me involved too. Which is why I am somewhat relieved it did not work out, because I think this particular OW would have made that difficult. I don't think from talking to her that she is evil, but merely childish, stupid and lonely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong>
I agree with part of what you say. I feel 100% why push something on someone who is non emotional over the child. That is abusive. Bringing any child into this world weather it be through a single fling or affair or what ever is not abuse. I am a hard working women I am already raising twins from previous marriage I've done it all. I take good care of my kids and I don't need xmm to help with the emotional end. I can do that just fine. It took two to get the child where it is though. I don't care what the circumstances are. It took two. I agree though a mm does not have to be involved. Who would want someone raising there kids that can't even take responsiblity for there own actions? I made a huge mistake but owned up to it. For some reason a child was put in my care and all I know is I have to do the right thing. If that means that MM gets a swift kick in the butt from his wife if he ever tells her, I'm sorry. I'm the one taking the responsibility for the child...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying. I believe all single parents are hard workers, it's a given. Maybe unplanned pregnancy is not a direct form of abuse like if you hit your child or something, of course I don't mean that. I mean that in the mental struggle of all the tough decisions once the consequences hit, you have no idea what problems you are causing for the OC--simply by giving birth and knowing that the xMM won't be involved...

In a perfect world, the cheaters would own up to their lying and mistakes, and the BS would forgive and love the WS who would give up all their cheating ways. In a perfect world, the xOP would not make demands that are totally unreasonable. Heck, the cheater couldn't give 100% to their own family, how would an OP hope to expect whatever is left? A person who cheats is being completely selfish in that moment...

So maybe it is not directly abusing a child but indirectly I have to stick to my point that it is.

How do *I* know? My OC is now 20 years old. I am also a mom of 8-year old twins. I also raised my OC for 10 years as a single parent before I got married. I notice distinct differences in my children's demeanor between being raised in an intact family and as a single mom with all the A issues. All kids are different so I can only tell you what I have experienced being that my experience is pretty well-rounded. (In other words, I'm old!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 12, 2003, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (In other words, I'm old!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I won't go there........about my age. I never thought I'd ever be having kids at this age....I was done (so I thought) after my twins. I see what your saying too. I do think like you said it has to do with cirucmstances. Although my kids do see there dad and we did not split up over a affair, my kids are much better off than when we lived together. It just was not good. He (xh and I) were on two different pages and have two different ideas about life....well he had no idea, but that is besides that point. Even my x says the kids are doing much better than when we lived together. But that is another story for another day.....I do understand what you are saying though totally. So are you the bs? ow? both?

twilight,

Are you NG on GB, as another poster suggested? I feel for your situation, I really do, but there is little need for understanding on what has happened here (if you are NG).

You slept with xMM and it brought on labor. All negotiations before that were based on W's belief that the affair was over and she could handle contact and visitiation. By falling into bed together, again, all bets were off. You signed the No Contact letter yourself when you slept with him in an attempt to bring him back into your life.

He wants his marriage, obviously. His wife wants the marriage, obviously. You want him. Odd man out. I am so sorry you are in this position. Perhaps if you can truly disentangle yourself emotionally and it becomes clear someplace down the road that you are not a threat to the marriage, then perhaps xMM and his W will be able to renegotiate contact. Perhaps.

I truly do wish you and your sweet baby well.