Chris, I said if the OW is upset that MM/BW do not want contact, to bad. They have that right and should not care if OW is upset. SHE DOESN'T MATTER.

Accountability: If he is paying CS, he is accountable. PERIOD.

Need to move on:

Phoney separations are perfectly legal. May not be fair, but they are legal and they work great. Especially if BW suddenly loses job (ie. paid in cash). None of this is fair. You and H hit me, I hit back. Totally legal and a good attorney will walk you right through it. Well worth the monye.

Respect-You sound like a 3 year old caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Now that you are caught and have oc, suddenly you deserve respect? Give me a break. This is such a line of Bull. You were part of an affair that ripped the fiber of a marriage and family apart. You deserve nothing. Not a thought, nothing. Your oc may legally be entitled to cs, but that is that. Respect? Hardly. Respect is earned by actions, and any woman who would knowingly have a child with a man who is married, thereby creating huge pain for not only her own child, but his others as well, the word respect is far from it. And don't jump on how "well if you forgive and blah blah blah your UH, blah blah" it don't wash lady. The UH, if he is working it out has alot of actions in his life where a relationship can be rebuilt. Your only action,pertaining to BW, their kids, and families is that of an OW. Why should any of them ever respect you? Based on what? Your cheating with the UH? Your run to the courts to grab money away from them?

Yeah, let this end. OW here have proven my points.

1. They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.

2. They do not hold themselves accountable for their part in the destruction of a family. It is all MM's fault, as long as he is lying and disrespecting his wife and kids, it is all ok, and if caught it is all his fault.

3. They all get pregnant by accident,and that it is now the mans responsibility to have BC. Were we not all taught in 10th grade to not have sex without BC, as most men will not even think about it? I guess only OW are the ones who missed that class.

OW keeping OC is only to keep a tie to the MM.

fofatty, i just could not help myself!!!! Please that is so ego building what you just said. Why is it that just because the ow keeps her child (have you notice I normally put her) she wants the ties to stay with you? I think no I know I'll be better off raising my child byself versus with xmm in the picture. I have no quams at all about that and have posted that over and over and over and over and did I metion over again. Is your xow moving for a better paying job or to have support from her family? That would make sense....and maybe just maybe she is just leaving the door open if by some slight chance you change your mind to have contact with your oops I mean her child.

Better for OW to be free of him except for support

New Branch....I agree 100%

Lynn:
you must really be a hard one when in a dispute with someone. You only see what you feel you can fight against. Read Read Read. Don't look at everything as we are out to get you. My gosh......As for my xmm.....I have not put his w through anything....she knows nothing!!!!!! NOTHING not even of a affair. He and his w put themselves in a mess years and years ago. When I talked about respect....it had nothing to do with me bing caught in the cookie jar.....but you can not see past your own tunnel vision. I can least see what I've done to his family (when and if he does tell them) my family, and my life!!!!!! Don't preach to me Lynn.....I'm not stupid....and Lynn it is against the law. I work for the top 3rd attorney in Calif. It's a loophole, but it's not legal!!!!!!! One more thing....I've had many chances to rat him out....I'm getting NOT one dime for this pregnancy....my choice...my state I can. I've left it up to him if and when he does. I have accepted all the terms! I could care a less if my child ever sees his father. Who would want a man around my child who is not proud of him.....I sure don't.

Cry me a river, oh cry me a river.
Take your child support and MOVE ON.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Iamsurviving:
<strong>Cry me a river, oh cry me a river.
Take your child support and MOVE ON.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whose crying a river? Can't a ow be just as strong as the bw?

Well, I am so impressed, you work for an Attorney in California? LOL. As if that is impressive? Isn't that state all messed up with their liberal laws and now damm near broke? Yeah, the legal system in California is real impressive!!!!

You are the one with tunnel vision. The oc is so born and you and others like you expect XMM to throw open his home, and of course his wallet, kick his wife and their children aside, to welcome the offspring that was created with some wonton woman in an illicit affair. Hardly.

Why are you on MB. This board is for support of those in the marriage. What pearls of wisdom are you pontificating about, that helps them? You blame their husbands, call them cowards for ignoring your offspring, arguing with others. What is your point. I am here to tell my fellow BW to get the attorneys immediately. To DEMAND, yes DEMAND that tests be done, that their children be protected and that the wishes of the OW do not matter and should not matter to them at all. What is your point? Don't they have a right to know that the legal system has tons of loopholes that they can use LEGALLY to their advantage? That they have rights, and that the OW and the OC do not have any control over anything. That is what I am here for. Why are you here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I seem to think your lumping all OW in one catergory. I never assumed my XMM should put the children before anyone else. In my case my XMM has no children with his XW. I do not push my kids on him. If he wants to see them then he may. I do not get child support from him. In fact my XMM took me to court for rights to the kids. He lost. My XMM is the one who is still sneaking around lying to his XW about the kids. I disagree with it. But its his life not mine. He is the one who has to live with the lies. I'm moving on, realized my mistake and is trying to better myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. They do not hold themselves accountable for their part in the destruction of a family. It is all MM's fault, as long as he is lying and disrespecting his wife and kids, it is all ok, and if caught it is all his fault.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hold my self 100% accountable for what happen. If I wasn't week I would have turned away his advances. He ruined my family as much as I ruined his. Better yet, I was the one who let him into my life. In to my marriage and let him help ruin it. When I told my H of the affair, I took full blame. To this day, XMM still thinks it was more than an affair and is still trying to get things going again while still pleasing the XW. Not right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. They all get pregnant by accident,and that it is now the mans responsibility to have BC. Were we not all taught in 10th grade to not have sex without BC, as most men will not even think about it? I guess only OW are the ones who missed that class.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll be the first to admitt the first pregnacy with MM was planned. We talked and planned the baby. Wasn't my doing to trap him. We planned the child togehter. And the commen that men will not even think about bc, lame excuse. They're just as much responible for it as the OW is.

As an Ow and a BW, I would like to say this. Not all OW are the same, just like all BW are not the same. This OW takes full responisibility for her actions. I almost ruined my family. i do not push my kids on to the OM, he sees them on his own free will. I never stated that men who have NC with the oc are cowards. But lets face it we all have different views on this subject.

I have a H who chooses NC with his OC, I don't agree with it. His XOW is trying to push the oc on to his family so she can get more $$. It's wrong. She plays games with me when setting up visitation times so the kids can play. Not all OW are this way.

The XW in my case has had me attacked while hanging on to my daughter, she has threatened to harm her and has wished her dead. She even accused me of abusing my children. I do not call his house unless there is an emergency with the kids. He ahs even told both the XW and I that our daughter may call and talk with him whenever she wants. I don't allow it due to knowing it will only cause more trouble.

I found this on another board and thought this BW has both courage and wisdom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We all know it's crappy and uncalled for, my question is this, should a man
>that has fathered a child with his ow, be responsible and be a part of that
>child's life?

I am living this as we speak, as some of you already know...And yes it is a very difficult thing to deal with...But the truth is I don't feel it is as difficult to deal with as I imagined it would be...Why? Well, I believe in that every thing happens for a reason...Nothing in life just happens...Whether its Karma, whether its fate I don't know...My DH has his own speculations and pretty much they are similar to mine, for the most part...

This is so fresh in my life but to answer your question...It is absolutely his responsibility to be a part of this child's life...It is HIS child...And his child is innocent to her parents errors and yes irresponsibility's...She deserves to know the love of her father...It is her right...

Interesting enough the OW sent me an email a few days ago...It was as evil as she is...That's OK she's hurt too I imagine and chooses to direct it at me...But she mentioned that it must be killing me that they have a child together...It is not killing me...I look forward to being a stepmom...I am beyond wallowing. I choose to step up and make the best of what I have been given...Be true to myself and my spirit...And everything else will fall into place...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am not suggesting the ws and the ow remain in contact. Just that the ws MAY want to have contact with the OC and it is something that should be considered by all IF it is something he wants.

But his family should not be made to pay for his sins with contact with the oc if they chose not to.
What if the family has no contact but the father does? How is the family being made to "pay for his sins"? So he's gone for a few hours on Saturday morning.

This man alreay has a wife and family, their needs are to come first.
Quit ignoring the fact that the husband NOW has one more family member.

If part of her willingness to work out this mistake is no contact
I'm confused. She is willing to make a demand(no contact)?

When she explains to oc about his roots and calls the MM a coward for not including him in his life,
What? How is he a "coward"? The betrayed spouse/wife does not want him in his (OC's) life.

Then when and oc comes, suddenly her problem (their oc) is now everyones problem and how the BW has to do this or that.
What does the betrayed wife have to do? Nothing. Let the father see his child (not see the ow). Why does the father have to "play house, just like a little family"?

Now that an OC is in the picture, suddenly MM owes them everything. Well, yes, and it's called child support and that is it. He owes you nothing, your child is your problem if you chose to keep it,as long as he sends the check.The child is HIS problem too.
If your kids (got boys?) grow up and get a girl preggers when they are 17/18, are you gonna tell them to just walk away, it's her problem?

You are the one what had that baby, you knew the situation, deal with it.
And the ws is the one who had the baby, he needs to do the same. It may be more than simply paying child support, if he chooses.

Other than venting, what is the purpose of this thread? Honestly, I would like to know. If each of the members involved in this thread can just stop for a moment and think about one positive that comes from the discussion, then that's terrific.
Maybe it is just to vent, what's wrong with that?
It's a discussion over the issues.

No where does the father's point of view matter.
You're right. Andthe father's pov SHOULD be taken into account. By the wife and by the ow.

I believe he should not be part of the childs life unless the OW is neglecting that child or abusing it. Then he has a responsibility to step in.
What if HE wants to be a part of the oc's life (not the ow's life)?

They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.
You are assuming exactly the same thing.

Again, if the father wants to be a part of OC's life, then it is something that should be considered.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I'm reading this and thinking there IS no one solution for every situation. Some families choose NC some choose to actually adopt and raise the OCs.

The only thing the OW can really "demand" is CS. I don't see how xOW can expect a former WS to provide emotional support to the OC when the WS couldn't even be there for their intact family!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just the fact that they are a WS could mean in itself that they are emotionally in an unhealthy place and need to get back to a healthy place for their own family before they can even think about helping an OC adjust to the OC's difficult situation!

I have to agree that single xOPs need to just go on with their lives and leave the WS's family alone. In cases where the WS is married, it's WHOLE a different ball of wax. It's not black and white, you have to use the Policy of Joint Agreement in every case tho, that's pretty black and white as far as Marriage Building goes. And no, the POJA does not include xOPs. Sorry!

Something constructive that BS could do concerning the xOPs feelings, especially if you believe in God is to pray for them. Pray that they would have peace in their lives and their OCs would grow close to God.

I know that is a stretch but we are instructed to pray for our enemies so that we can be able to move on with our own lives.

Everybody matters to God, especially sinners. How can we even come to God unless we recognize that we need God's forgiveness in the first place?

That's about the only way I can see to help and change someone's heart so that they don't go out and destroy another family.

I don't think affairs are 50-50, tho. I have to agree with Dr.Harley that the environment for affairs have 3-way responsibility: the WS, the OP and the BS create the atmosphere for an affair. (Surviving An Affair)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong>Well, I am so impressed, you work for an Attorney in California? LOL. As if that is impressive? Isn't that state all messed up with their liberal laws and now damm near broke? Yeah, the legal system in California is real impressive!!!!

You are the one with tunnel vision. The oc is so born and you and others like you expect XMM to throw open his home, and of course his wallet, kick his wife and their children aside, to welcome the offspring that was created with some wonton woman in an illicit affair. Hardly.

Why are you on MB. This board is for support of those in the marriage. What pearls of wisdom are you pontificating about, that helps them? You blame their husbands, call them cowards for ignoring your offspring, arguing with others. What is your point. I am here to tell my fellow BW to get the attorneys immediately. To DEMAND, yes DEMAND that tests be done, that their children be protected and that the wishes of the OW do not matter and should not matter to them at all. What is your point? Don't they have a right to know that the legal system has tons of loopholes that they can use LEGALLY to their advantage? That they have rights, and that the OW and the OC do not have any control over anything. That is what I am here for. Why are you here?</strong>[/QUOTE

****edited******by Justuss

Oppsss..I KNOW you didn't mean that so I took the liberty of removing your reply.

And to enter a reminder----

"If you are building or rebuilding your marriage or if you want to provide support to others in building or rebuilding their marriages, then you are welcome here."

Justuss

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Back to the issue of the OW having the final decision about what happens in terms of her pregnancy. Abortion, adoption, keeping child. When I became pregnant with a child with my ex-WS, we did make the decision together for me to have an abortion. We did not want to raise anymore children. We didn't feel that we were in very healthy conditions ourselves at the time. He did take me to the clinic for the abortion and stayed with me as long as he was allowed to. He was there for me right after the abortion to take me home and support me. I have had no great emotional trauma from the decision that we made nor has he. So yes, it did piss me off that the OW decided to have her child and keep him, and expect my ex-
WS to support her ( she had no place to live, held no job, was a 21 yr. old recovering alcoholic) and be there as a father for the OC. My ex-WS says he asked her to have an abortion and she said "No". She had already given one other child up for adoption when she was 18 and regretted that. To top it all off this OC was born with Down Syndrome, which could mean a lifetime of child support, not just 18 years.

Having said this, I understood my ex-WS's desire to be there for the birth of his OC because the OC was innocent and deserved to have his dad at his birth. I asked to meet the OC and said I would consider accepting him into my life if I could genuinely accept him and not feeled forced to. I met the OC. I have had visits at my home with him several times as my ex-WS and I have talked about reconciliation. I have come to adore this little guy with his big smile that lights up the room when he sees me. I have gone on a chat site for parents of children with Down Syndrome so I could better understand what we might be dealing with in the long haul. I have been concerned about how it might be to deal with the OW, as my stepdaughter has told me the OW is very opinionated about everything and thinks everyone should know her opinions. Yes, I wish this OC had never been born. Life would have been alot easier. But that's not how it is. I guess it really doesn't matter much anymore because when push came to shove my ex-WS won't leave the OW. He says it's because of his concern about the wellbeing of the baby. He says he doesn't have feelings for the OW. Even though they haven't married, I guess maybe I'm the OW now! Plan "B" is in place. What a mess for all concerned!!

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: lilymarie ]</small>

Lilly, please don't take my post as a put down for anyone who has had an abortion or chose adoption. I was trying to prove a point. For me it's not an option I went through to much to have my twin girls almost 5 years ago. I honestly feel it is a women's choice to choose and it is something that a women should make that they can live with. My affair with mm was soooooooo wrong and this is the results of it. I'm am going to have full custody of my child and not have mm involved because he had no choice in what I chose, but I do feel strong about my issues. I am sorry you went through it and your xh must really love you. He stayed by your side through this. I must say though....he is there for his d? I'm sorry she has down syndrom. I don't know much about it, but have heard they can live pretty normal lives. I have read a bit more on it due to my age. I am in a position to take care of my kids and myself. I have a desent job (he has a better one, but mine is not bad) and I've worked hard to get where I've gotten even with obsticles in my way. I understand where the ow use to be in her life, but where is her life now? If she still has problems why can't your xh try and get custody of her and get back with you? There can be ways. I hope it does work out, and please don't be the ow. It really is not worth it. It's a hard road to ride and as you can see from the post between us w and ow it's not pretty and you never know where the h mind is really at. Good luck to you Lilly.

Certainly there are a million different circumstances here. ANd a milion differnt ways to handle them.

Bottom line (for me). When I chose to have my child I chose everything that came with him. The good the bad the ugly. In my case that meant accepting that his father was a "maybe" parent at best.

Initially his father said he'd co-parent then changed his mind. Whatever.

Fair or not since I CHOSE to have the child I accepted the all of the rights and responsibilities that came with that. His father opted out. And you know what, that's his loss not mine.

His father chose to focus on his other relationship (I didn't even know he had another relationship-but that's another story for another day).

I could spend my life wringing my hands and worrying over what that man chose or I could live a full and beautiful life. Guess what I chose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And you know what, we rarely think about him. I'll bet he wishes he could say the same.

Peace
ks

Chris - if it upsets his wife and his family, he should put their needs first. If he wants to see oc, and wife doesn't want any part of it, then SHE NEEDS AN ATTORNEY. She needs to protect her and her childrens best interest. The marriage would be in bigger trouble if he pushed contact.

As for ignoring his child, as long as CS is paid, legally he is taking responsibility.

Once again. This message is for wives to get going. Get attorneys immediately. Have everything stated and planned out legally and you will be ok. Everything.

hey ca may have liberal laws <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> (still better then some of the back woods judicial systems out there), we may be damn near broke (but then again so is the federal government) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , we may have to darn many cars and pay too much for gas and electricity (when we can get it) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> BUT we sure do have the weather baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

without a doubt we have argueably the best weather in the world. tell me how many other areas in the country can have their family pose for a new years day picture and everyone is wearing shorts and t shirts. sunshine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> and temps in the mid 70's. here in so ca you have the option of going snow skiing in the morning and laying on the beach in the afternoon.

and now we even have people leaving for employment so the traffic jambs are clearing up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OH,I have no doubt that CA is a lovely place to live. I just don't think that an employee of some law firm in CA should be saying what is legal or not, just cause she works at a law firm. For all we know she is the cleaning lady and it is quite obvious she does not know law.

A couple can file a legal separation, where H pays alimony, CS, mortgage, etc. That would be filed, legally. When OW slithers in to see what she can get, the well would be almost dry!! I know of one BW who gets all that. Her husband "rents" a room from the neighbors. They are reconciled and OC gets about 300 per month, as her husband had already been paying spousal maintenence, child support, mortgage and all utilities for marital home. Slick.

if it upsets his wife and his family, he should put their needs first.
Above his own to see his child if he choosesto?

If he wants to see oc, and wife doesn't want any part of it, then SHE NEEDS AN ATTORNEY. She needs to protect her and her childrens best interest.
I don't understand what this does. Is his wife going to get a restrainging order against him seeing her? Seeing his child?

The marriage would be in bigger trouble if he pushed contact
Bigger trouble than if she called a lawyer on him because he chose to see his child? That seems prety darn rough.