Pepperband,

You restated Lynne's posts in a very positive reframe. I totally agree with you.

The OW in my case did not consider how what she did with my H would affect me, my kids, my extended family and my relatives. She and my H have hurt many. I never understand the OW who say that they have no accountability for hurting the BS or the WS's children or other family members, since the OW did not take marriage vows. It really doesn't matter. The OW is participating in hurting others via the A, just like the WS. Both huur others, out of selfish need. It isn't only the WS who hurts the kids of family or the BS.

And I partly understand what Lynne is saying. My family was hurt by selfish people who were not thinking of me or my kids or my loved ones.Am I now supposed to not protect my children or myself from further damage from WS and OW? WE can debate how we should protect ourselves, and perhaps Lynne's way is suspect, but I think we all know that we feel hurt, vulnerable, and wounded. ANd when I am wounded, or my loved ones are wounded, I will do everything to protect them, especially from people who have willingly hurt them.

ONe more thing about contact with OC. In agreement with Harley, I think this decision should be a POJA. I just was watching Dr. Phil and he was mentioning how a married couple needs to make major decisions about anything affecting their life and marriage together. Further, major issues take two yes"s- i.e. both members of couple must agree- or one no. As long as no is well thought out, not given hastily or just to be mean.

In the case of the OC, it is a MAJOR decision. I don't agree with many who say if wife stays with H, then she is agreeing or must have contact with OC if H wishes. I don't see it that way. Nor do I think H has only the right to make this decision.Contact with OC has major complications and effects on family and the wife and H. This must be decided jointly. Let's face it, if H had jointly decided with wife his decision about wanting an A, this mess would most likely not have occurred. When the H acts independently and takes action to be some kind of father to child, with intent of staying with wife whether or not wife agrees with the decisionk the H is acting as if he is single and damaging further the nature of the marital relationship.

Ask me, I know. My H did this, and now we are separated. I never felt like repairing the damage he did to our relationship via A and oC was his priority. I never felt he made it o.k for me to consider contact with OC. And when he went and had contact openly or secretly, against my wishes in collusion with OW, it felt as if his relationship with OW had priorty as well. Not our marriage, not our kids, not our family., And it felt as if he kept hurting us.

The OC may now have a father in my H, but my kids are now minus one. My kids after months of separation are now acting out their feelings-good kids upset with the change in their family-and my H has up till now denied that was true. Now this week, after several things have happened with my kids, my H had to finally confront what his decisions have done to them. Up till this point, he has been in denial. Heck, he may still be in denial.

So, is this better all around? I don't think so.

This x-ow holds herself accountable for what happen. I will forever live with the guilt knowing that they got a divorce part due to what I contibuted in. They are still together, but I helped to do the damage. I did send a apology to the XW earlier this summer. It was truthful and from the heart.

I also have to live with the damage of what I did to my own family. The guilt of sinking below my moral standards. Giving my children a poor example.

Thing is these days, its not the OW trying to get the MM and ruin his life/family. I have my XMM still trying to ruin my life. He is the one who goes to my family and shows up at my house when ever he feels like it. No matter how many times I have told him its over, he won't give up. He is sneaking around his XW back and lying to her about everything he does.

As far as the OW getting pregnant and keeping the child so she can ruin everyones lives, anyone think that the pregnacy isn't the best thing for the OW either? Just because lots of women can handle an abortion doesn't mean that all women can. When I found out about my last pregnacy I was devistated. I cried and cried. I already had 4 kids, my marriage sucked, and alcoholic for a H, and MM was playing games with his XW and I. I couldn't go through with an abortion. I couldn't abort this child and still look at my other kids. I carried this child and kept him. I suffered the humiliation of everyone knowing I was carrying another mans child. MM made sure that everyone knew. But my son has a father that loves him (my H), a brother and 3 sisters and a big loving family. H family accepted him, said it wasn't the childs fault. And the oc does know his bio-logical father, calls him papa.

A very screwed up situation, but trying to make the best of it. So if me keeping my child makes me "less than the dirt on the bottom of your shoe", then so be it.

I think you all must know something I think Lynn is trying to tell BS.

In the beginning on D-Day, H is usually so far in the fog or a mental state of confusion that although he may say he's sorry and want the marriage there is still a long way to go via the ow's pregnancy.

Since ow/ws were recently lovers, how can one ask for a poja and expect a reasonable answer?

I do not know of one single person from the past that had their ws agree to that early on while still in the fog.

Therefore Lynn is telling bs to get a foothold on the situation before it spirals out of control, which again it has for far too many bs on this board.

We cannot hear a tone of voice from the internet and sometimes a person trying to give fabulous advice is "heard" out of context.

To expect a ws in the early days of discovery to do right by his family is outrageous thinking. If spouse won't go to counseling or agree to a poja and you have young children then Lynn's advice is right on the money, no pun intended.

I will also say that Steve Harley asks for N/C to be implimented as it allows bs time to heal. He actually told me it shouldn't happen until the child is an adult IF H and W agree at that time.

I will tell you that for a spouse to have an A and produce a child and expect everyone else involved to become mature and accepting of something that is so hideous to most family members is just as sophmoric as the A was to begin with. For most reasonable people it causes so much difference in their way of life and so much pain that most cannot do it, me included.

I didn't ask for this and never imagined this could even be a remote possability of happening to my marriage. That it has doesn't mean I am willing to accept oc and just whistle while I work.

I never will.

There is nothing wrong with my H coming out of the fog and leaving the oc for mama to raise and support it financially. Nothing. He has/had strong views and they faded as he came back to reality with me. For him now oc is an obligation that he will pay for and God willing we will still have a few years left together after those payments to celebrate the fact that we made it.

He is now a wonderful loving and (thank God ) honest man. You can just tell the difference, especially when you lived with a maniac during the A and didn't have a clue what was wrong!

God has answered my prayer of which way to go.

So, Lynn, keep up the good info and perhaps tone it down to a loving wife and mothers level. I know you can do it..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

love
Debi

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

UW wife said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ANd when I am wounded, or my loved ones are wounded, I will do everything to protect them, especially from people who have willingly hurt them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I don't understand is ... your H is one of those people that willingly hurt your loved ones, yet if the conditions were right you would forgive him and continue in a loving marriage. So, why does one set of circumstances apply to the H and another to the OW? I can certainly understand NOT forgiving either, but I cannot understand such strong feelings about one and not the other. Maybe I am missing something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ?

And Gem:

No one seems to be focusing on the real questions that were asked here. What GOOD advice are you talking about? All we have heard from some on this thread has been get a lawyer, get a lawyer, and take the worthless piece of dirt through the ringer! I thought this was marriagebuilders and I don't see anything in the words that I am reading that is guiding anyone towards re-building their marriage!

Has this thread advocated techniques to get past the pain? Has it shared any tools to improve communication with your spouse?

Gem, you said that if your spouse is not responsive and is not interested in a POJA, then run for a lawyer right away. I would fully agree with that because it would be obvious that your marriage is in serious trouble.

Why are some of us wrong to point out that some of the posts in this thread have no redeeming value in relation to MB principles? And why do we need to be chastised because we don't enjoy insulting and slinging mud at members who have come here to respectfully present their point of view -- regardless of whether they are BS or OW.

Everyone, have your fun. If some of you think that ignoring the dignity of any other person makes you superior than go ahead and indulge. I don't understand how anyone on MB, BS or OW, can talk about their superior intelligence, better jobs, or enhanced incomes, when the simple fact is your spouses -- JUST LIKE MINE -- at one time felt that you were NOT all that special. How you handle that moment in time is what determines what the rest of your life will bring.

Thank you, Lynn, for the threads that you have started on this board. It made me see some of the people on this board much more clearly.

No need to try to run me off. I also see clearly that I do not belong here. I want to live and enjoy my life not make my H and everyone else suffer. I want to accept my share of responsibility for what went wrong in my marriage that contributed to my H's affair. I will not pretend that the OC is not my H's child exactly the same way that my children are his. (They were all conceived and born the same way!) And, I will continue to thank God that He has softened my heart and opened my mind.

And, just like Lynn, I will continue to live well. Only I will be living as an equal with my H not holding his reins so he won't ever forget and won't ever run away again. I will not be living with a man that is so afraid of me, or afraid of what legal action I will take, that he must deny his love for a child.

I wish all of you well. I have come to love and respect many of you. God bless you all and good luck in your futures. I pray each of us finds peace their own way.

love,
heavenly

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

Heavenly,
I just spent 30 minutes trying to respond to your post, and it got lost when my computer jammed.
Don't have time to finish it now=but I will be back. Your post called out to me, and I want to respond to what you are missing in my post and also tell you what I see in your post.
don't leave yet!
Fondly,
Unhappy wife

Dear Heavenly,
When my H felt I wasn't so special that was the fantasy of the affair and it happened.

I was trying to say he is fully back to reality now but it took a long time and although at first he wasn't practicing MB principals, I was plan A'ing for months.

We don't deny he has another child with ow. He pays for that child every month.

I am saying that when we tried contact early on, ow fought the way we wanted to do it all the way. No third party, A MB principal when this situation comes about.

She wanted to call H and have him to her home. Another break in MB policy of joint agreement.
She had papers drawn to say it would be the only way since oc was an infant AND she stated that I was unstable and didn't want me around the child!

She would drive by our home shouting out the window, put things in our mailbox, send things by mail, use up the whole tape of messages at my H's office with one phone call after another.

All while still married (in name only)!

Remember during that time when she put hers and H's name as if they were married in our former church bulletin?

When you try to follow the MB principals and have constant turmoil it doesn't work. Steve Harley himself told us N/C was the only way for us to get past this emotional upheaval. To let it go until the oc was an adult and then if poja was in place and we wished to look up oc we could. Another MB principal we followed.

The advice I was talking about is get a lawyer.

If you tell your spouse that you are frightened that what you've built together may be taken away from your young children and he still sits on his hands because of a fog, you must tell him you love him but do not trust him and are getting an attorney to protect the things you have built together.

I think that may be an early plan B thing to do. Maybe it will let him know you cannot just sit back and wait for disaster to happen.

I called an attorney on d-day. I told my H, he was in the fog and said go ahead I don't blame you, you can have everything....then a couple of days later he wanted to talk. Begged me not to leave etc...well I believed him and he still was calling ow to check in and to argue, he was still lying to protect me!

I stayed in plan A for another 4 months and when I saw no change I went to file for divorce but stopped short of filing because H moved home and we began the journey of healing and using MB principals.

It was during THAT time that we were dealing with ow and bills sent to our home and all the rest of the things we went through.

She got an attorney first then we did. We had to.

Now three years later, we are doing fine. We agreed to N/C together. He is not doing it just to please me. He is also in relief that we have semi peace together. Ow still rears up and does outrageous things and we finally have a restraing order on her and her H.

Now how would contact work for us? It wouldn't. It was and still is all about her.

H tells me he doesn't know what he was thinking in trying to have contact, that ow has other c's who despise my H, and a husband who despises my H. That the best for all of us including oc is to stay away and go on. Not deny.... go on.

We pray that oc will do ok. We don't wish evil on oc. Just following MB principals and doing better all the time.

Like my H's brother said, because of what you've done to your family, everyone will have a price to pay.

A shame isn't it?

But Heavenly we do the best we can with our personal situation, as you do with yours.

I think Lynn was trying to help. Her words were too strong for a lot of people, agreed. One thing I agreed with is ow's feelings do not matter.

As far as anger at ow and not H, I had a rage and love at the same time during those early months. It was because of my H's actions that I forgave him. Now how can I feel about my former friend and her actions toward me? I no longer feel rage for her. I just pity her.

They did what they did. We are all paying a price and truthfully will carry the pain in both of our hearts for a long time. Perhaps in all of our hearts giving ow the benefit of the doubt.

Don't go, Heavenly.

Do you know that it was you and you alone that helped me personally during my darkest grief?

I wrote to you constantly and you always answered me.

I'd come home from work and there was this perfect stranger with love for me tring her best to console and comfort me. And the advice was always right on the target!

Please don't go from here.

I hope I've explained to you what you asked.

love
Debi

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

To all of you that are criticizing LynnG, I am one of the women that she is helping. Maybe because I am new here and my situation is still new, I dont see the bitterness and anger that you all see. I see a woman that went thru what most of us have and survived and is basically telling all of us that have been hurt, how to overcome it. It doesnt matter how she got here. She is here to help. If you dont see it as help, then dont read her posts. I,for one, do see a lot of good advice on here not only from LynnG, but from everyone. We are all hurting in one way or another so how about we start helping each other thru our time of need instead of putting each other down for our opinions. Everyone is different and how we perceive things doesnt make us right or wrong. That is why they are called opinions.

I think Heavenly deserves a standing ovation.

Heavenly, you are someone to be admired and respected. It is truly sad that you have once again been pushed off this board, this time, by people who claim to belong here simply for their "BS" status when they clearly are not here to follow the principals.

I believe that you are an icon here for many decent people wishing to heal and recover. To become better not worse on the inside, because of their experience. Please reconsider being bulldozed by fly by posters who clearly do not measure up to you as a human being.

Heavenly, you don't know me, but you have helped me understand the compassion, understanding and more importantly the strength of the betrayed human being. You are one through your example who has given me the courage to change my life for the better. If you do leave, I wish you the very finest life has to offer. You so deserve it.

Gemni:
I read your posts and must say that your ow is also crazy. It goes back to what I was trying to say eairler.....no one should try and screw anyone over. I can totally understand where your coming from. If she is nuts and acting the way she is she is NOT putting her child first. I have always said that if the xmm does not want contact (even if justified or not) that is his choice. You are right about heavenly. Her spriit and words are so comforting to all around. She has endured a lot in her life. Not only with her uh and oc but with her children as well. I am overwhelmed at how great her attitude is with it all. It's hard for me understand why people can be so mean. I feel personally I have to have the best interest for ALL my kids. There needs and wants come before mine. Even with my twins and there dad it's very hard for me to keep my mouth shut but I know it's in there best interest for me too. That is there dad and they love him with every being in them. He loves them too, but does not always put there needs above his own. I never came here to put down your choices.....everyone has a reason. I really came here to understand some things. There has not been a D-day in my situation. At some point there may be. I have not forced myself on xmm, or have done anything to make him have a d-day. Some of my friends have told me I'm protecting him.....I don't feel that way because I have a great deal of anger towards him. I just think I am accepting his decision and going on with my life. I've paid dearly for my part in this already. He is living life as nothing happened and pretending the affair never happened and this baby is not around. That is his cross to bear. I don't feel it's right for me to surface what is up to him. I feel it's venditive in a way to do that. Then all that would bring me is more Karma coming my way. I hope you understand that. I feel he has to do what is required by him and that is it. I don't want him to be around if he does not want to. I also know that if he changes his mind his w will be a part of my child's life and that is the way it is. That is his family and that will be my childs family (well part of it) too. I don't go by his house, or work. I don't call him. I leave him alone. I know what all he's told me. I know what he told me a week before I got pregnant and then what he told me the day I told him I was pregnant. I know how he has handled this whole thing. That's for him to figure out. I do know that possibly God has given me this child to teach me some lessons. I was in the FOG. The day I told him I was pregnant the fog lifted. Let me tell you. I know you guys probaly don't want to hear this but I don't know if I would of really ended it (although I was on my way and had tried to before and was very weak) unless something drastic like this happened. I knew better the whole time, but I fell in love with this man and believed in him. Did I think of the cause this would create his family? I never thought it would go that far. I thought he would leave her for the reasons he said he was not happy in it (just as I did before I ever was with xmm with my xh) or I would come to my senses and drop him. He was not going to end it. It had to come from me. I was the only thing in his life he had control of and I really think that is why he held on to me as he did. When I became pregnant he lost that control cause I would not abort. All he kept saying was do you know how many lives you are going to affect by your choice? Yes I do. But I guess it worked out for him cause he is living just fine now. Sorry to ramble.

ntmo,

IMHO, I say that if you can support this child on your own, do it, but if you can't I would, in an adult manner, seek CS. You are right, that it is up to xMM to tell his W of the A/OC, but think of how you would react. If you knew throughout the xOW's P, you could heal, and possibly have a "relationship" w/OC. Where as finding out by being served with CS papers is an awful way to find out! It's a double whammy, and one that can break even the strongest woman! If you are still able, I would let xMM know of your intentions of CS and let him know that he may want to tell his W now, instead of finding out the hard way!

Doing it this way, you may all get to the point where mediation is all that's needed, and you can all be sure that ALL the children are treated fairly! Don't you agree that everyone being civil is tons better than going to court and fighting tooth and nail? Now, I don't know what your xMM's W is like or how she will react, especially since she basically has NO idea what's going on right now(not that the A is ongoing, just the P and such)! But, don't you think it would be much more fair to the other's who are innocent in this to know?

Just my $.02.

Tigger

She may be crazy but I wonder if what another poster pointed out earlier sheds light on the reality of these situations where the BS or the OW appear "crazy". Some of Gemini's post reveal a very angry person sort of stuck in that place of "strong" opinions. I see the correlation between this perpetual anger and "crazy" OW or BS's. That is why I think LynnG's approach will only cause more harm than good,unless you want to live in a hostile life where other people plot against you in an effort to get even. Why?
What comes around, goes around. Isn't that what they say and it is true for all of us.
Seems that the most angry people have the most turmoil in their lives, with OW or BS's "out to get them". It is no wonder really.

It amazes me of how perfect some people are, never made a mistake or much less sinned in their life. It must be wonderful. I would love to see these perfect people or person to show a more Christian attitude in their sharing of wisdom. (If they are Christian?) Forgiveness goes along way for everyone. It clears the mind. I never wanted to ruin anyones family and I am sure he never really wanted to ruin mine. I think life does deal us some amazing challenges, I would never in a million years ever expect myself to be in this situation, so out of character and moral and christian beliefs. But we are human and not perfect. I did make a life altering mistake, but I would never put all this weight on an innocent child or any child of the families. As adults we need to teach about wrongs, forgiveness, learning to find goodness in the worst scenarios, being strong, showing love and compassion to the innocent. I want all the children in our families to know they are safe and loved and will be protected all 11 of them. both our families have done an excellent job of bringing up kids with open hearts. I do not see that there has to be all this damage done to them so that they live with a storm cloud above their heads and hate in their hearts. And no oc should grow up with a so called stigma. That comes from an hateful person feeding this to them, children learn from example, sure show them the awful results and pain that can come from choosing an a, but also show that through love you can rise above and turn your life around. I am a wonderful person just as you are, you do not know me and i dont know you, our stories and circumstances can be totally different or very similar. but hatred feeds on itself and can not be anything good or productive. There are people in this world that are scum, and they dont have to have an affair to prove it. but an a does not make you scum, we all have to live with our decisions and pain and guilt, but what we do with it , matters to whether we make ourselves a good productive life for us and the ones around us or to drag everyone down to the gutter.
i agree everyone needs to protect themselves, but there is a difference in protecting and being cruel. and some here are all out cruel. We are talking about human beings, not some creature from the black lagoon. Hopefully we will have more positive feedback into helping people repair their marriages, love all the children, and have everyone grow up leading full and productive lives with out having to go to a shrink for the rest of their lives, because of the stigma some would like to put on them. I am sorry for rambling, life is unpredictable, make it the best for the short time we are here. I am sure going to do my best......

A husband who is given a 2nd chance and forgiven is forgiven based on love,and how he handles the situation. He is forgiven if he is sincere and realizes what he has done and tries his hardest to make it up to his wife and family. The OW is nothing. She does not matter.

A laywer is necessary so you don't get run over. Why oh why is that so scary? If you have an OW who is pregnant by your H, your marriage is, at that time, breaking. Why not protect yourself?

Heavenly brings up dignity. Was it dignified to have the affair? Is it dignified to go through this? What is so wrong with pure honest emotion? Are you asking that I worry about the dignity of the OW? No. I could not care any less about her. That is the whole point. SHE DOES NOT MATTER. A BW, facing an OC is hurt, why on earth should she stuff her feelings and worry about the dignity of the OW? Can't see it.

And no, I do not have reins on my husband. Just because I drew a line in the sand and said no more does not make me controlling. Personally, I worry about he reins husbands have on their wives when they have their wife babysitting the OC. That seems far more controlling to me.

Lynng, over and over people have said it is not the advocation of acquiring an attorney that is the issue. It is not that you say the OW doesn't matter. Aren't you reading what people are writing to you?!
Heck, there are now 9 pages of this, haven't you read any of it yet?
You'd rather continue on with this rampage and see somone who so much to offer people leave because your posts have become insulting?
You've made your opinion clear back on page 1.

Lynn,

Your rhetoric is very troubling. When you can call another person a "nothing", that they are less than the dirt on your shoes---it doesn't paint a pretty picture about the kind of person you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is so wrong with pure honest emotion?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong??? Nothing. How you choose to express that emotion---it can be exceedingly wrong and destructive. Affairs are results of expression of "pure honest emotion". Killing someone can be an expression of pure honest emotion. The emotion is something you can't (easily) control. The expression of emotion is something that you must learn to control, if you expect to live in a civilized society.

If you had said---upon discovery of an affair, the BS and WS need to attempt to come upon a POJA-ed plan in dealing with OW and OC, and that the OW's feelings should not be a primary consideration in reaching this agreement---that's fine. A good message. When you encourage a betrayed wife to think of the OW as "less than dirt", and insist that she does not matter, AND not to worry about expressing her emotions (especially in regards to dealing with the husband, who probably still has feelings for OW); you are leading someone to even more marital disharmony, and potentially inciting a divorce which may not have needed to occur. It is certainly NOT the rhetoric that Bill, Steve, or Jenn Harley would counsel a betrayed wife with.

forgiveness is the first step in healing, doesnt mean you condone what has been done, even Jesus says to forgive your enenmies--which i know you think we all are, because you have shielded yourself from looking at us as people. You will never lighten your heart if you cant forgive. and i am sorry but ow or om will always be a part of your life as long as there is an oc, that is just a given. doesnt mean they will be a daily part, but they are. you have a lot of issues to deal with, i am so sorry that after all these years you have not been able to come to term with any of them. What a sad life, what a waste to put all your energy in.

NTMO, thankyou.
Ow may only be still in love with H. And no, she doesn't put her children first.

I'd like to add that she still lives with her Mom and has her whole marriage. Also has a huge trust fund and doesn't work. We WERE friends (?) before D-day.

As for your situation, I feel MM will soon find a wake up call when you file for cs, as you should. Please tell him to come clean before then. I shudder to think what his W will go through if the papers come in the mail.

I hope it all ends soon for you, and you and your H truly come together and love each other again. Be ready for the ride of your life once papers are filed because MM is acting like it will never happen.

Fullhouse, you and pops have done a wonderful thing in staying together. Keep up the progress and love! I pray for all of us here daily. I wish you the best.

K,I think you gave great advice on how to handle the lawyer situation. Why would I expect anything less from you? That is the way to handle things the MB way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

love
Debi

So bascially, since I am telling women that,if they are in the middle of this nightmare, and to not care about OW, take care of themselves and look out for their children, this is wrong? And the fact that I forgave H, and could care less about OW, that I am wrong? I owe her nothing. I loved him. Big difference.

I think I am not the one living in denial here. Many of you are in the middle of a huge storm and hiding and crying is not going to help in the long run. There are women on here who have just learned that their H. have an OC coming, or recently born. Some of you are painting a picture that if they stand up for themselves and their children, they will lose their marriages and all. This is wrong. Early on nobody is looking out for her and her kids. The H is a blubbering fool, with a huge mess on his hands. His OW is obviously not going to fade away, nor is the oc. I am not stupid, they will be in the picture for 18-21 years.

Why oh why is it so horrid to show these women that now is not the time to fade. Now is the time to take care of yourself and your children as your husband has proven he is not. They do not know what will happen next week, next month or next year. If they sit back and allow events to unfold without active participation, they are the ones who will continue to get burned. Have they not been hurt enough? Are they strong enough, those first few months after Dday to think clear and rational thoughts? No. That is why the need to delegate some of this, let the law protect them so they can protect themselves.

All this forgiveness is not even a thought in the middle of this. This is not years past dday, when people are calm and cooler heads prevail. Good grief, you are talking about dignity and forgiving the OW and how the OC deserves all this and that. Those are issues that come about long after the early days of discovery. Can't you see that? The worse thing a woman could do, in this situation is to say, your forgiven, bring on the baby and we will all be one big happy family. That is not natural, not realistic and basically impossible. She is in shock, fear and hurting. A false recovery, based on denial and fear is going to cause far more resentment and trauma down the road. I know cause I tried that. Failed miserably. I tried to get over this to quick, tried to forgive and forget, all to soon. One day, it all hit me and out of the blue we were at dday all over again. Why? Cause I buried my feelings. Cause I didn't want to face it. Cause I didn't want to rock the boat. All based on fear. That is when we really worked it out. Had we done so in the first place, we would not have slipped.

The BW IS angry at what has transpired. She needs to work past that long before she can accept anything. Let her know it is OK to be angry.

Who is looking out for her? How does she know what will happen? How can she count on anyone right now? She can't. She has just learned that the person she thought she could trust he most has betrayed her. She needs help. She should find it. Counseling, legally, friends, anywhere she can. She should not be making huge decisions until she is back on her feet mentally. That could take months. At least with people looking out for her she isn't going to get sucker punched again.

Telling these women early on that this is all going to be easier if she just shows dignity and forgiveness is pointless right now. You don't run someone over with your car then tell them to stop moaning and crying about the exposed bone, that they need to forgive you immediately and that if they had any dignity they would move on and forget about it. They need to tend to the wound first. And that wound could have life long pain associated with it. Nowhere near as painfull as it is now, but every now and then that wound aches.

I know my words are harsh, but I have 15 years into this. I have seen, first hand what happens to family, children, marriage, etc. I have lived it. I have seen others, who thought they could trust and forgive get burned again and again. By trying to do it civily, and with kindness, acting in the best interest of all concerned. Only to have all of it blow up, back cs is due, and turmoil year after year after year. You think the courts are a mess now, wait tell you see what happens when oc is 4 years old and now the amicable agreement is dragged into court. Disaster for the MM and his family is to small a word.

The only way this works for every one is legally. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? You can also say it works out better for OC too. By law, we have to have that check in the bank by the first Friday of each month. If it is not there, she can come after us. That is fair. The law assures her it will be there. We can't say our car broke or whatever. She has never, once had to call her attorney cause the money wasn't there.

As for the OW, the wife never has to deal with her. Who knows, maybe down the road you could change your mind. I didn't, but I'm sure many have. But don't make rash decisions. You have a lifetime to live with this.

I do not guess what will happen, I lived it. I lived through the calls from ow, when she is so dang angry that your child went here or did that. I lived through the ow calling our home, and informing my daughter that her brother will be the same school, when my daughter was to young to even know about any of this and had not been told. I lived through the photos being mailed, out of the blue to grandparents, who stood by us.

I have known years, with no problems, then suddenly out of the blue she is calling demanding that we pay for summer camp, or skis. Then a months of peace, then she starts in again. Due to our laywer, we were able to avoid all contact and file a restraining order. Mind you, this was not happening when oc was 1 or 2 or 3. This was happening when oc was 10, 11 and 12.

Who knows, had she not been such a fruitcake, maybe we would have tried to forge a relationship with the oc. But, I learned. I now let the attorneys handle it when she goes off the deep end. Her calls and her behavior do not bother me at all anymore. She is just a bad memory at this point. Is she every ow? No. Am I every Bw? no.

The world you are entering is not as easy as some want to portray. Your marriages can survive and thrive. So can your children. You will have years and years of memories. Your life will be normal. But you just don't know what is coming around the bend in anylife, let alone one with and oc out there. Tied to them? Yes and no. Yes in that he is there and we do pay. But no, as we learned to live our lives.

For the record, we belong to a huge sorority of women. You will be amazed how you will find each other. You will lean on each other and support each other. Each with a different story to tell. Just like here. These women and I all met after oc were in our orbits. It is a great comfort to have them. Not just because the are bw with oc, but they are wonderful women and true friends. You will all find these women too.

As for peace in my life? Yes I do have it. I want it for all of you too. I don't want you awake at night worried about your future. I don't want you walking on egg shells around OW (if you chose contact), that if you say or do the wrong thing she is going to sue you for more money. I want you to live your life and enjoy your family. Have BBQ's and birthday parties. Buy a new car or treat yourselves to a vacation. I don't want you to think that this will ruin your life. It won't.

Gemini:
I posted a post left the computer I guess it froze up and it's gone. just gone! Oh well probaly not meant to be. Thank you for your kind words. My stbxh and I won't be gettting back together. I asked him to leave about 6 months plus before I had the a with xmm. I tried for years and we were just not on the same page ever. Thank you though. As far as xmm I've told him as much and it's really not my problem. I will not tell her. It's not my place and if she ever does find out it's going to be a blow to her no matter how I feel about her, I would never make it a "worse" blow. I don't that is protecting HIM either. Her personailty? Well she is kindof mean and controlling. I know her, never was friends with her (knew xmm 13 years before affair). I'm sure she has her own problems that make her the way she is....don't we all???????????? Even so, they have two girls 9 and 11 and I just won't be apart of tearing that family aprat like that. She uses his kids against him (saw first hand) and this would just make it harder on him and her. I hope they get through this too. I know I'm going to pay twice for this mess. I'm paying now and she does not even know we had an affair and when she finds out I'll be paying again. I just want to get the dna testing done, and get ON with my life with my kids. I feel as if I've aged 10 years in just 3 months. I actully told him about this converstations on this site and he realized how freaked I was and so now he's freaking out. We talk only maybe here and there or should I say debate and argue but I just want on with my life. My kids and I were in a car accident yesterday and it was the first time since he found out I was pregnant that he even asked how I was. Strange but it was almost like I could not accept him asking. OH well I'm rambling. It's been a long couple of days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by full house:
forgiveness is the first step in healing </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may think this is the first step in healing from betrayal .... I happen to think it is one of the LAST steps taken .... not "the" last step but certainly not "the first" or even "one of the first".

Disbelief is a step.

Anger is also a step in healing ... more in the front of the line than forgiveness.

Acceptance is also one of the "front end" healing steps.

Forgiveness requires understanding and acceptance of the wrongful deed ...

To me, saying forgiveness is the first step of healing adultery is like saying the first step of healing from a heart attack is running a marathon!

But, that's only my opinion..... as well as my experience.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>