AD,

Your post I thought was right on the money and very good. FH needs to feel she has friends here. She does more than she realizes, but I think your presence and advice will mean a lot to her, surely more than mine.

My only complaint about FH's posts is that she is too defensive. She doesn't need to defend herself here. AFter all if everyone is pulling of Pops to have a good and happy marriage, that sort of means everyone is pulling for FH to have one too.


FH,


I don't know if you girls understand this, but us guys do. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So FH we want you to be happy as well, which means it would help if sometimes you posted your issues as well. Everyone KNOWS Pops isn't perfect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But we all like him just the same. I think you will find out you are well liked as well.

God Bless,

JL

WOW,,,,, did this get out of hand. especially in this house.

i did talk to fh about this same question. even told her that i thought i should post it here thinking i may very well have been to sensative.

autumn,,,, you are right the issue had nothing to do with the amount.

jl,,, as usual you hit the nail on the head. i am feeling insecure about our relationship. not that we are heading for divorce but more in line with not feeling valued. i do need fh to help me right now. i don't feel that she understands how much.

i am as concerned about my health as fh and have taken steps to find out what is happening inside.

____________________________________________
Everyone KNOWS Pops isn't perfect.
____________________________________________

WHAT????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pops:

"i am feeling insecure about our relationship. not that we are heading for divorce but more in line with not feeling valued. i do need fh to help me right now. i don't feel that she understands how much."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you conveyed this to her? If you have, what was her answer?

Pops & FH

I do feel for both of you. I know first hand on both sides how difficult this situation is. Please FH, if you ever need to talk let me know.

Best of luck to both of you.

jl,
thank you for your post, it was stated in a very calming way, last night after i posted and pops came home and read, we argued and did not resolve anything, i woke up (after sleeping at the foot of the bed) in tears, feeling depressed, unable to get things going for work, i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, our relationship--i dont know what kind of relationship we have anymore, i feel i am here because---because he doesnt know what else to do with me, i dont really know if he can still trully love me, it is so hard to respond --when you feel no response. does that make sense? i dont know how to explain how i feel. i love pops, i love all my children, i want to be here till the day i die, but i want the laughter back, i feel like im flatlining...so sad...how do i find myself so that i can be there for my family. i dont know. i feel there is too much inside of pops, that he will always put me down, never have faith in me, treat me like a child. i want to feel love and i want to give love, but i feel its lost. he gets angry if i answer the phone and say hi or hello. how are you suppose to answer--hey poopbutt? the phone is ringing----its my daughter, will be back in a moment
fullhouse

jl,
thank you for your post, it was stated in a very calming way, last night after i posted and pops came home and read, we argued and did not resolve anything, i woke up (after sleeping at the foot of the bed) in tears, feeling depressed, unable to get things going for work, i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, our relationship--i dont know what kind of relationship we have anymore, i feel i am here because---because he doesnt know what else to do with me, i dont really know if he can still trully love me, it is so hard to respond --when you feel no response. does that make sense? i dont know how to explain how i feel. i love pops, i love all my children, i want to be here till the day i die, but i want the laughter back, i feel like im flatlining...so sad...how do i find myself so that i can be there for my family. i dont know. i feel there is too much inside of pops, that he will always put me down, never have faith in me, treat me like a child. i want to feel love and i want to give love, but i feel its lost. he gets angry if i answer the phone and say hi or hello. how are you suppose to answer--hey poopbutt? the phone is ringing----its my daughter, will be back in a moment
fullhouse

FH and Pops,

At the risk of playing amateur pyshc here, and because I am YOUR ELDER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> let me offer you two some thoughts to consider. First for FH, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> how do i find myself so that i can be there for my family. i dont know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, being a guy, the only kind of advice I can really give about this stuff is what a guy would. Something sort of straight ahead. You want to find yourself, have a look in the mirror, then analyze the situation. Who are you? You are a mother, your Pops W, and most of all you are someone with love to give. I fear you are waiting for permission to wholeheartedly be those things again like you used to be. You don't need Pops permission to love him. To give him a kiss, slap him on the butt, and tell him you are there to love him and he darned well better straighten up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I am trying to say is ACTION is what I would recommend. You want to find yourself start doing things. Things you think are productive and then go from there. Ask for feedback from Pops, but keep it moving and you will find yourself.

This I know is a guy sort of advice, but sometimes us guys do something right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i feel there is too much inside of pops, that he will always put me down, never have faith in me, treat me like a child. i want to feel love and i want to give love, but i feel its lost.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, first if you give love it won't be lost. Look in Pops post he says he needs your help, the problem he has is he knows he needs it but he doesn't know what "it" is. You looking him in the eye and telling him you love him and you will love, and acting in a loving way, I suspect will go a long way in this. You are waiting for his permission for you to act as you want to, and you should "just do it".

I suspect two things will happen. You will feel his love in return and you will gain his trust as he learns he can lean on you for emotional support.

You may not realize this but YOU are the strong one right now. You need to act like it. You need to stand up and proactively take charge of the love life, the level of affection. You shouldn't be at the bottom of the bed, you should be there with your arms wrapped around Pops, and just tell him "this is the way its going to be." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ANd then make it be that way, every night. Tough if he cannot take affection and love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You know us guys hate to admit this, but we do like it.

Finally, I think you need to realize something here and I am very serious about this. In my family the "preferred method of demise" for males is heart attack. I was the oldest living male in my family at 48. Heart disease and particularly heart attacks affect men (and I am sure women as well, but we are talking about men here) in profound and subtle ways. I am guessing but I think that a lot of the insecurity you see in Pops is NOT due to your A, it is due to very definite message of vulnerability and mortality he got with his episodes. Further, I hate to say it, he is getting older and most men begin to doubt and have concerns about their abilities.

Please realize that even if Grace wasn't there, and you never had an A it is likely that Pops would be facing some very deep issues. He needs your help, and support. Further, he says he needs it. FH I think you are looking at this wrong. You want to have his trust, and have him have faith in you, reach out and help him. He isn't certain of many things but he NEEDS to be certain of you, and only YOU can help him here. It is a question of YOU standing up and deciding to focus less on "I'm sorry" and more on "how can I help". That is my guess. You need to be the woman you were, his partner, and that means you have to decide to be just that. Take control FH, quit waiting for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he gets angry if i answer the phone and say hi or hello. how are you suppose to answer--hey poopbutt? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am betting that if you do, the things I am discussing or something else proactive as you and Pops decide that this issue will go away completely. He fears you are NOT strong enough to take control of your life. You fear his anger. His anger is coming from his fear FH. Remove the fear and you can answer the darned phone anyway you want, that is my bet.

You heard in his post what he needs. He needs your help with his fears and his uncertainty. The uncertainty isn't just about you, but more about him. Please stop and realize this.


Pops, you want to know what you can do? Read the quote below. Just as you need her help, she needs you to help set the tone. I know life isn't a bowl of cherries right now, but you need to help her take those cherries that are left, dump them in a big bowl of ice cream and sit back and enjoy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i want to be here till the day i die, but i want the laughter back, i feel like im flatlining...so sad...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pops, I think you know this but I fear FH hasn't quite got it. You are waiting for her to become more proactive aren't you?? You want her to stand up and tell you she is here for you and she will darned well love you even if you are a ???? sometimes. But, Pops you also need to help her do this, by talking to her about your concerns, your fears, and allowing her to take a more active role in your life and feeling. Not just the HURT ones, but the ones where you struggle with yourself. You need to permit her to make mistakes. I know you fear the BIG ONE, but in your fear of that you are paralyzing her. That is my thought on this.

Life is short and too darned painful not to laugh at it. You need to show her how to do that.

Well, I am hopping off of my soap box. I know I missed at least a few targets if not all, but I hope that something I have said will help you two to see things a bit differently.

I am reminded of a college football coach I had, who yelled at me one day "don't just stand there, do something WRONG, RIGHT for once in your life." Whether you get it right the first time, start DOING something for each other even if it is wrong. You can adjust things much better when there is energy and movement in the system.

God Bless You Both,

JL

tmcm,,,,, the answer is yes. i don't know how fh would answer though.

i feel that i have told fh what my needs are more times then i can count. she meets them for a couple of days or a week then there is nothing for a month or so.

this makes me feel like i am not worth the effort.

jl,,,,,

***i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, ***

this is where some of my problem lies. when i try to have fun with fh she seems indiferent to my efforts or gets mad if i put an ice cube down her pants <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . saying that that is mean. or if i try to give her a quick grab on one of her private areas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> she covers up and says the kids will see. when she comes home she is unset that the house is a mess. back packs all over. yet when the om calls her attitude turns to instant happiness. not giggly all over but like "well hi, how are you? haven't heard from you in awhile." it may very well not be that way but that is what I see.

she is right that i handle most exchanges with grace. but at the restuarant she seemed almost antsy to go out to the parking lot to get her from om.

i just don't see the joy when she is with me. she is always tired or simmering at something.

and i am afraid to show to much emotion or effection until i see some sustained effort on her part to show the same to me. i know there were unmet en's that led to her A, but her main one was time. that's why we go out so often and i ask if she wants to go with me wherever i go gas station, hardware store, pharmacy, a late night run to pick up a check or set of plans, etc..

i feel i made an effort to show her my affection in many different ways before and they went unnoticed. now i am protecting my heart so to speak until she backs her words up with actions.

sorry i have been reading and typing for about 2 hours and can't even remember what i was thinking right now. i need to take a break and finish later.

Fullhouse,
pops won't give a response until he feels you want him and only him.

As a BS I see what he's saying. You may not be aware of it but you are still acting in a way with om, as pops sees it, that is too comfortable. I mean acting too nice when he calls.

You don't have to be the one still getting those calls.

pops would it help if FH handed you the phone to take care of business? If so tell her.

Fullhouse, that flatliner way you feel can be depression... or in-a-rut type feeling.

Please call the counsel center with your concerns of unmet EN'S... please.

At least you both will begin to see some light!
It's there just misplaced after years of the same ole routine.

pops, the icecube thing isn't romantic...sorry..
How about you two writing a letter of what you'd like from each other to spice things up and bring it to Steve Harley for advice on where to begin?

Love to you both,
Debi

Pops,

I thought I would quickly respond to your posts on an item by item basis. First, let me say I feel your uncertainty and reticence in opening up is very understandable. I don't think FH knows how this has damaged you. I suspect she feels you are angry at her or unforgiving, but what I see here is that you are just so unsure. Sound familiar??? Sort of sounds like FH doesn't it?

I do think Gemini is right that FH may be depressed and that is something she must address via a doc. Plus, life is more hectic now.

So on to what you said. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jl,,,,,

***i cant live like this, no laughter, no fun, ***

this is where some of my problem lies. when i try to have fun with fh she seems indiferent to my efforts or gets mad if i put an ice cube down her pants [Roll Eyes] . saying that that is mean. or if i try to give her a quick grab on one of her private areas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> she covers up and says the kids will see. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, this is advice for FH. Fight fire with ice, put a cube or two down HIS pants I think the reaction will be much more intense from him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However, perhaps play that is NOT sexual in nature might be useful right now. More smiles and relaxing times. Pops, she needs to become your friend again. This will take the effort from both of you. She has to be more "friendly" and you need to do the same.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when she comes home she is unset that the house is a mess. back packs all over. yet when the om calls her attitude turns to instant happiness. not giggly all over but like "well hi, how are you? haven't heard from you in awhile." it may very well not be that way but that is what I see.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got ya. You don't see that casual easy "well hi, how are you..." when you call or talk to her do you?? You miss that don't you? You want that and from the sounds of it so does she. Since you cannot change her, you could change and have a look at how you converse with her. Lighten it up perhaps or be more casual and friendly to her. It would be nice if she did the same for you, but you can only change you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is right that i handle most exchanges with grace. but at the restuarant she seemed almost antsy to go out to the parking lot to get her from om.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be she was anxious to have Grace back? Could be she was anxious to have the exchange over so that your family could get on with what you were doing? Could be you are partly right? You need to ask. Pops, you making a disrespectful judgement, DJ, here and you know that is an LB. Don't try to read her mind, ask her, and tell her why you are asking...so you don't have to read her mind and guess wrong again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i just don't see the joy when she is with me. she is always tired or simmering at something.
and i am afraid to show to much emotion or effection until i see some sustained effort on her part to show the same to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The old "which came first the chicken or the egg"? The correct answer by the way is "the rooster." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Usually when people get themselves into a binary yes/no, him/me situation, they are failing to see other possibilities and solutions. You want her to demonstrate that she loves you before you will show her, and she wants to feel safe before she will show you.

Pops, if I told you that you had a year to live, and you wanted to show FH your love, would you wait for her to do it first??? I don't think so.

Pops in your wedding vows you promised to love and cherish her. ANd then there was that thing "for better or worse". You promised to love her, why are you waiting on her??? It is your promise that you must keep, NOT HERS. She made a similar promise and it is up to her to address how seriously she takes promises or vows, NOT YOURS.

The woman needs loving and you promised to do it. Interestingly, have you noticed that the vow did not say anything about "feelings". You may not "feel" like loving her, but you promised to do so anyway. Sorry, but the "rooster" part of this conundrum is that you do what you promised no matter if she is doing it or not. Open your heart Pops. I know it is hard to do, but you will be rewarded if you do so, no matter what FH does. You may get the love you deserve and were promised from her, or you may not, but you will know you kept your promise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i know there were unmet en's that led to her A, but her main one was time. that's why we go out so often and i ask if she wants to go with me wherever i go gas station, hardware store, pharmacy, a late night run to pick up a check or set of plans, etc..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good thinking. Now do you hold her hand? Do you open the car door for her? Do you show her and the people around you that you do have respect for her? Do you help her get seated?? If not, do it. She is YOUR W, and you need to show respect for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i feel i made an effort to show her my affection in many different ways before and they went unnoticed. now i am protecting my heart so to speak until she backs her words up with actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So to quote Dr. Phil: "How's that workin for ya?"

Please know that I would be asking FH the same question and I hope that you bring her here to read what I have posted, because my advice to you holds for her as well. Here is where this site shines. Harley recognized a long time ago that sometimes NEEDS not being met was not due to lack of effort but lack of correct targeting.

Frankly, you are missing your target because you aren't firing and that has to stop. You need to get in the game and meet your vows. But, I would strongly advise you to talk with FH at length about what you can do to show you love her.

Now as bad as you are or you aren't, it is clear that FH is really missing the target. She says she is trying, and I believe her, but you are not feeling many direct hits are you?? I think that is because she has not resumed control of her life and to some extent yours. Hence my previous posting to FH about helping you. I sense you would view her coming to you and asking "how can I help you" as a huge love deposit, especially if you two could then talk about what you are feeling without tears, defense but simply in a problem solving way, AND then she followed up.

Am I close???

Pops, you got to step up my man and I know that FH has to as well. Right now your marriage should be top priority, not so much the kids or a clean house, but you two need to get out of this rut, and I think ACTION on both of your parts is required. This sitting around waiting for the other person is not getting it and it builds resentment and you know what resentment is right. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the strong feeling you both are doing exactly this.

Finally, to FH

You know you screwed up big time, you know you broke your vows to Pops big time, but what you don't seem to realize is that the Vows are still in place. You may have broken them but they are still there and by the fact that Pops is still married to you, that means the break in the vows no longer exists. Just as he must honor his vows to you, you must honor yours to him. FH, the past is past but you NEED to learn from it and show Pops what you learned.

What I am trying to say, is I think your guilt may be paralyzing you, but you have been forgiven Pops is there with you. ANd he needs your help. He is leaning or wants to lean on you for help because the MARRIAGE didn't die, it didn't get broken, it got bent badly, but when Pops decided to stay and when you decided you wanted to remain married to Pops rather than be with OM, you both forfieted the right to NOT fulfill your vows.

Folks, quit staring at the chicken and the egg and start hunting for the rooster: TOGETHER.

God Bless,

JL

I'll have to agree with others here, sounds like FH is suffering from depression. Not a fun thing to go through.

Pops,

Alot of what you have said about how FH act sounds alot like me. I have a hard time being around my husband. But if my XMM calls he to accuses me of being happy to hear from him or being to friendly with him. In all honesty I don't feel I am. I know I hold no feelings for XMM, but have a hard time with the emotions. Could this be a way of FH hiding her emotions from OM?? This way he doesn't know how depressed she is? I feel that FH is going through a guilt stage. She needs to take time and find herself and heal. I'm currently going through this myself.

Any way, I do hope you two can work through this. It isn't an easy task. Lots of time and tears. Prayers are with you. And FH, Please get check for depression.

Good one Crazymum, good one.
She may be hiding true feelings so om may think things are peachy and they aren't. In pops defense!!!

I still feel JL is right... the vows are still there and you two need to get advice on how to "come together", as the Beatles would say!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blessings and we're pulling for you two!
S_U_C_C_E_S_S!!

love
Debi

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

crazy,,,,,,,
___________________________________________
sounds like FH is suffering from depression
___________________________________________

i have felt this was true for some time. even prior to her ea or pa. her sister even suggested to her to get checked for it way prior to her A.

_____________________________________________
I know I hold no feelings for XMM, but have a hard time with the emotions
_____________________________________________

please explain this statement further. i feel i understand somewhat but with my brain spinning from the last day or 2 i want to be sure.

this will most likely bite me in the butt also but here goes.

in the more recent past i have tried not bringing things that bother me here to the board. rather just try and relate my experiences in this matter to those who are struggling on the same road. the reason is that fh reads here also. even when i relate my experiences to someone when fh reads them we oft times end up in a tiff. that's why i have avoided asking some of the questions i have struggled with. this one turned into a major hoopla in this house to the point we are both asking ourselves "for what?". please keep in mind that i have never said anything here that i would not or had not previous to writing tell/told fh. i never saw this as turning into this bruhaa as i asked her the same exact question the night before.

i try my best not to upset the kettle. i don't want to fight with her but once it starts i have a hard time letting go. if she thinks it's not a big deal i want to know why if it's not a big deal can't she just exceopt that it bothers me and move on instead of wanting to prove why it didn't bother her.

so i am in a quandry wondering how i ask questions to ease my heart and not go thru this nightmare each time. maybe i just don't ask.

last night we argued again. i tried to talk to her but it ended negatively. we were out running errands. when we pulled into the drive i got out and she said i stormed out so she drove away. ater a few minutes i called her. she was parked somewhere just sitting in the car. we talked for a long time and i ended up telling her of my fears and what i percieve as my failures in life. i told her that with one of our talks just post d-day i felt like my feelings died. in mb's terms the bank was empty. that i wanted to love herthe way i did then but don't know how and i need her help. then i asked her to please come home. she did but we didn't speak the rest of the night.

i am not in any way shape or form trying to make her out to be the bad guy and myself a saint. i know that neither is true.

jl,,,,, i understand what you said about not changing her and changing me. i am afraid to change me as i don't want to ever be vulnerable like before without some sign that i won't be broken again. so now i ask have fh and i come to a mexican standoff since i am sure she feels the same way? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

Pops,

You and FH need to stop and really face some serious issues here. Your health, her health (depression), the fact that she is not seeing you as we are. The question is why not. You say FH reads here. Well, perhaps she needs to come here and tell us how she sees you, what she fears about you, and what she sees as changes in you, good and bad.

I have this feeling that you both are using DJs and it is killing what could be a good marriage. She needs to understand that you being out of sorts, or hurt, or feeling down, or just confused IS NOT a reflection on how you feel about her. Does that make sense. He talking to OM can drive you around the bend, but you still love her right?? You still want her to help you right? You still want to make her happy right?

She needs to separate out things abit. I fear she sort of has a whole bunch of things really balled up and misconnected. Just a guess. Plus, she does feel guilty, she does feel as if she is NOT on the same plane as you. I would bet she still has fleeting thoughts and moments where OM is in the picture and that gets her down. I am guessing but from what I have read here she is pretty normal, but she needs help with sorting this stuff out.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> understand what you said about not changing her and changing me. i am afraid to change me as i don't want to ever be vulnerable like before without some sign that i won't be broken again. so now i ask have fh and i come to a mexican standoff since i am sure she feels the</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see here. Why didn't you leave the marriage when you found out about the affair and the coming of GRACE ( I like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )? I think you knew it would have hurt worse to leave than stay. Are you happier now than before the A started? Has protecting yourself brought comfort, safety,... love?

In fact, you are broken now. That is what we have been talking about Pops. Getting you help to put you back together along with the marriage because you are broken NOW.

So I'm sittin her thinkin to myself, what is there to protect? Is Pops really doing just fine and I am missing something here? Isn't his heart broken now and he is just trying to let it heal?

Then I think of the old bandaides and all of the cuts and scrapes I had. I remember I used to keep that bandaide on for days, and when I took it off, man were things ugly and a bit smelly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I recall the Doc telling me take it over every night, let the air get to it and change it every day and it will heal better.

Which leads me back to you and FH. Now I don't know if she behaved before the A as she did last night with the car, but it isn't good. I keep thinkin you and FH have bandaged your hearts but you two need to open up and let the wounds air out and heal.

Pops, I'm thinkin your natural instincts are right for the short term to stop the bleeding, but they lead to infection in the long term. I'm thinkin that you need to be thinkin about protecting and healing your heart by opening it up to FH.

Pops you don't need a sign from FH to do the right thing. What needs to happen is that FH will need to reach the same conclusion. She needs to open her heart to you, and let the fresh breezes of your life heal what is so damaged.

You know the interesting point here. If you think about this for long you will realize that it doesn't matter who was at fault BEFORE. What matters is what you do starting today to heal, and help the other heal. FH has got to quit defending a fort that she, you, OM abandoned some time ago. She needs to sally forth into the world and join you.

Pops can you talk to her about this? Can the two of you come her and read and discuss how GREAT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> our advice is or how lousy our advice is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ? Can you start by practicing that???

I really do wish the two of you would avail yourselves of the kind offer of counseling. But, if you cannot do that, agree to talk and LISTEN to each other. However, the first agreement that each of you should make is that you realize that FH isn't out to hurt you, and she needs to realize you are not out to hurt her.

Must go.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

jl,,,,

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Can the two of you come her and read and discuss how GREAT our advice is or how lousy our advice is ? Can you start by practicing that???
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i would like that very much and have sugested that to her. she starts but ends up "defending a fort". i have asked her to read magizine articles and mb's books and discuss with me what we read. but the discussion part never seems to happen.


i would love to take gem and fo8 up on their most generous offer but fh thinks it is to much to except.

back to work, pops

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> That's too bad you two..... wish you'd reconsider.

love
Debi

i have again been re-reading this whole post. when i look back on it i realized that i was only trying to get a second opinion on whether i needed work on being to sensitive about fh's atitude as I percieved it.

then after fh's response i took some of the things she said very personal and the crap then hit the fan in our house.

and now it has moved on to what the 2 of us need to move out of our state of limbo.

the way i see marriage is a series of giving. i give, she gives, she gives, he gives. the problem i am havng (and this is probably very over simplisized) is that i feel our relationship prior to the A was a i give 85% and she gives 15%. from my perspective that was an uneven relationship. now fh will obviously view the giving on the opposite extreme. maybe that is because we need to understand better what the others needs are and how to meet them rather then giving each other what we desire personally.

now this is from my arrogant side in that i feel i do understand what her needs are. i am just finding it hard to continue fullfilling them without feeling like fh is meeting some of mine. and the answer is yes i have explained them very clearly to her, imho. i don't need to have a 50/50 relationship although that would be nice but somewhere along the lines of 60/40 or 65/35 would be good.

pops and fullhouse, I do not understand why you both can't agree to no contact with OM. He could still see Grace. By the way, how does his wife feel about all of this? Perhaps the "no contact" would help their marriage too.

I'm sorry we are all hurting, or we would not, all, be here.

But, I believe hurting and learning, help us grow.

ember