<<OW have proven,over and over, married or single to be bunny boilers.>>

You've done a national survey including psychological evaluations? What breed of lagamorphs do they prefer to boil, the Angora or English Lop? I'm curious of your research project.


Way to stereotype. Kudos.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Human ]</small>

I think everyone should get an attorney too. I think that it makes it easier on everyone involved to have every I dotted and T crossed. That way everyone is protected. And that does include ow and oc.

For the record, I have been nice to ow who have come here and been in trouble. There was one who was afraid her child would be taken away and I truly did feel bad for her. I do believe that ow love their children. Most mothers do.

However, the points I am most vocal are the contact, and acceptance of oc. I simply will never believe that contact is necessary and certainly do not see any benefit to the marriage, nor the children of the marriage. I am also quite vocal about getting legal advice.

Some on here view BW who do not want contact, or anything to do with oc as wrong. They go on and on about how it works for them, and so forth. I give the other side of that. However, I am long past it, and the words I read can't hurt me. Unlike some of the other BW who are still reeling and hurting. So I tell it like I see it, and if someone wants to take stab, so be it. I am not vulnerable like others.

But I digress, An ow-type is wondering why if it would make a difference, and another ow type assumes it would and then goes on to enlighten us all as to why it would. Then when I disagree with her, she gets a wound up!!!

As for Josh mom, you have made some points and some friends here. Well I have made some friends here too, and am actually really good friends with one of the women here. Although she is on the private board. But I tell you this, until you are married and have this happen to you, it is pretty hard to determine what you would and wouldn't feel.

Originally posted by mom of five:
Maybe the difference is, being married we are not intrested in leaving our spouse for the other person.

Are you saying this #1 ~~ or this #2 ...

This #1. *During the affair* you had NO thoughts or interest about leaving your H for MM?

or

This #2. During recovery after the ending of the affair, you had NO thoughts or interest about leaving your H for MM?

I think this is a very important point.

Pep

Back to the original topic:

<<I was curious...I hear so much about these awful OW I wonder how many of these OW are/were single. How many people deal with MOW? I feel as a MOW I have bent over backwards so much for XMM and his family. It seems like full house tried to be fair to her XMM also. So I have wondered about this for awhile.>>


I think everyone is looking out for the best interest of the OC, regardless of OW's marital status. OW, WH & BW all are usually concerned for the OC's well being and all "bend over backwards" to find the right solution for their individual situation.

Originally posted by mom of five:
I have no intrest in being married to om. I dont want him.

And yet you made a baby with a man you are not interested in? While married with 4 kids?

I just don't understand why you would risk everything by having sex with a man you don't even "want"

Pep

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper I think she meant when it was over? I'm not positive but I think so.
I can see why she said that cause when I came out of the fog I KNOW I would never have xmm in my life as a partner in any way shape or form. A lot of true colors come out when either a d-day happens or something like this (pregnancy) happens. I personally have not had a d-day, so I know all of xmm's actions are his own, not his wife. I think that makes it easier for me not to blame where it should not go. When d-day happens and with this situation it will, I know who called the shots on the decision and this is a very good thing.

pep

What does this have to do with topic at hand,

I guess at one time many years ago om and I wanted to be together, yes I loved him and yes we did the whole baby name picking things and wishes for her when she grows up.

When it came down to it, i still wanted my husband and loved my husband and we decided to work on our marriage and give it one more chance. I dont see that as any different than these men who are wayward spouses who all of a sudden changed their mind nd are giving it another chance.


I was seperated when this started and a bs, and in an abusive situation, now years later and in a different place in my life, I love my husband we are trying to make a life for our selves and our children, and doing agood job of it. We have contact, it works because we make it work. It really is so simple.

Again you who scream the loudest dont seem to know my story or how I got to where I am. these things didnt happen over night, and it would take days to tell you the years of this and the emotions involved. I can only speak of where we are now, and as you and your spouses are entitled to be in love and have a good life and move on, Shouldnt I as a ws be entitled also.


I think if you dont want contact,, then dont, it is a good thing for you and your children, then do what you need to do.

We are just not able to do that and there fore try and make the best of it. I think thats ok as well. So why not make the best of it?

Originally posted by needtomoveon:
Pepper I think she meant when it was over? I'm not positive but I think so.

I don't know either. But a woman on this thread (page 1) said she "never" wanted to be with MM.

Seems so peculiar to take such bigs risks for someone who is NOT important to you.

And, by virtue of our physiological and anatomical differences .... the risks for women in an affair are BIGGER than a man's risks. Not fair, but true.

Sometimes. women don't respect the God-given beauty of their bodies, and mis-use themselves for no good reason.

Pep

Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB] pep

What does this have to do with topic at hand,

It seemed like a curious remark. I asked you for clarification.



I guess at one time many years ago om and I wanted to be together, yes I loved him and yes we did the whole baby name picking things and wishes for her when she grows up.

See, now this makes more sense than "doing it" with someone you did not want.



When it came down to it, i still wanted my husband and loved my husband and we decided to work on our marriage and give it one more chance. I dont see that as any different than these men who are wayward spouses who all of a sudden changed their mind nd are giving it another chance.

I agree .... except for the baby part. That makes a huge difference.


I was seperated when this started and a bs, and in an abusive situation, now years later and in a different place in my life, I love my husband we are trying to make a life for our selves and our children, and doing agood job of it. We have contact, it works because we make it work. It really is so simple.

MO5.... I am not discussing NC .... just adressing the unnecessary risks we sometimes take .... and the stakes are very HIGH when it comes to adultery.

Again you who scream the loudest dont seem to know my story or how I got to where I am.

I am not screaming <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And, I have read this board for a long enough time to know your story ... or much of it.

these things didnt happen over night, and it would take days to tell you the years of this and the emotions involved. I can only speak of where we are now, and as you and your spouses are entitled to be in love and have a good life and move on, Shouldnt I as a ws be entitled also.

? Is this addressing what I asked you, or something else? I am a little lost with this paragraph. I think your marriage deserves to grow and thrive.




I think if you dont want contact,, then dont, it is a good thing for you and your children, then do what you need to do.

I don't have an OC.... and I assume you are talking to someone else, right?

We are just not able to do that and there fore try and make the best of it. I think thats ok as well. So why not make the best of it?

Make the best of life indeed.

So, at least for awhile, you DID want to be married to MM .... and yet .... you did not.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> didn't mom of 5 even state that my comment about bending over backwards was tasteless???? That is a riot considering she was an OW.

=^^= I'm appalled. I've been defending your right to say whatever you want, barring of course, disrespectful judgments. We have several XOW's here who are respected and accepted long time members who have been respectful of us and accepting of our POV's. And I am very upset to see you beating up on MOF when your assumptions are completely off base. I happen to know her quite well and know that most of everything you said about her was completely inaccurate. It sounds like you were spoiling for a fight, Lynn! I used to have an adversarial relationship with MOF a couple years ago and we have worked hard together to correct our inaccurate perceptions. I am not an OW supporter or champion their behavior...not by a long shot. But there are individual cases where certain women fall outside the Bunny-boiling profile. Especially X OW's...I'm talking X here.
Please be careful so as not to offend people like Tigger and Ohbratti, too. If you've been been around here long enough to know or understand our history or the dynamics that have brought us to where we are today...which I hope has evolved from earlier times, you'd know that everyone is treated with respect if they show adequate respect. The flip side of that is anyone coming here from the "other board" showing hostility or contempt is fair game and THEN it's perfectly OK for the gloves to come off...but, never ever throw that first punch. No one here should pick a fight.

I love to rile those types up. It just kills them to see that there are other points of view and that people think things.

=^^= Why on earth would you intentionally want to rile someone up? I once called the women on TOW a "nest of vipers" (with good reason) when they were congratulating each other for inflicting pain on a hapless BW. They were awful and they deserved it. Now the things you are saying are akin to what they have said and it doesn't serve us to inflame or start a board war...just to "rile". I don't think any oldtimers here can defend this behavior. It is not conducive to harmony.

I just don't want some BW to be swayed by any of these OW who want to push their own agenda.

=^^= No one can "sway" anyone...either way. No one is that powerful and its arrogant for anyone to think they are. MOF has not said anything that could sway anyone to embrace contact or feel guilty. Her situation is very unique and works for her. She is also a BW and has been in recovery for a couple years. In fact, last night I was just telling her that no one here is bitter and angry and that I "don't see it"; but, now I have to recant.

We have to present all kinds of possible alternatives to all newcomers so they can see some possibilities that fits their situation best...it could be a combination of two or three scenarios or one idea of their own inspired by someone else. Your advice of obtaining legal advice is impertive as well. Admittedly, NC absolutely works best for the majority, and we pound that home as best we can and comfort Betrayeds who have been forced to terminate Contact (because it almost always backfires...but sometimes you just gotta try it). None of these situations are a one size fits all.

Just like the women on TOW can't understand or imagine why we stay in our marriages, we can't understand how they could knowingly be invovled with a MM or keep the child to raise alone or why they lurk here or want to read our every word and alert each other on their site for a "board war" like it is an engraved invitation. Just don't give them ammunition. They LOVE this stuff. It's like waving a bloody steak in front of a hyena...just don't do it. There are glaring differences between the two camps and it will never change...leave it at that. There is no need to deliberately tweak them when something innocently legitimate can send them on the warpath at any given moment. Personally, I just don't want to deal with them, they are here posting way too much and should just stay on TOW and MYOB....I don't like them here because after they get involved with us and we start to like and trust one of them, they run back to their board and do a lot of bad-mouthing and mocking and I know several newbies who are very sensitive about this...with good reason. It just feels like another betrayal when you think you are making friends with someone then they go back to their own site and later find out these people are making fun of someone here. None of us here do this to any of them and I think it's mean and despicable. It's just not nice...and starting a fight only encourages this nastiness and I have come to really hate it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I am so very, very sick and tired of the OW here. I don't want to hear about them! I want to hear how BS are coping.

This should be a safe place for BS. But I don't feel very safe here.

I guess that's why I don't come here very often.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

thanks cat

however, I am ok with it, I dont take it for much more than it is. these are not facts that describe me or my life. And people guessing they know something they dont.

I am proud of my life and how hard I have worked to make a better marriage for my self and my family. Statements such as the ones we have just read, only confirm for me, I am doing ok, and the things I think are huge, maybe they are not as bad as I think.

I am not smug ember, just damn happy about how my life has turned out. I thank god for those blessings, and will continue to thank him for our lives and family and for giving me the strength to do what I need to do.


and lynn catnip is right, i could never convince someone to do something they didnt want to do. but just maybe there will be someone who wants to have contact and wants to make it work, and will see there are some things worth trying.

Sometimes it wont work, and I have learned to respect that as well.


My husband just called to tell me about someone who committed suicide last night, he now has a wife and child at home who will grow up with out daddy. Sad ,they seemed so happy this summer when we were at their house. I think I am in shock.


Ember,
I love and respect my husband and when I made the decision to stay married and stay away from om, I made the decisions based on what I know of my self and my husband.
My husband and myself feel we have made good decisions and we are very happy and more loving than we had been in 18 years.

So as our kids are growing and slowly leaving the nest, my husband and I are closer, Infact its like we just started over, We are more romantic, we each put the other first, and he is so darn helpful makes me just happy all over, haha, These are things we did not have before.


I am happy for you that things are going well, Why is it so hard to be happy for me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> I am so very, very sick and tired of the OW here. I don't want to hear about them! I want to hear how BS are coping.

This should be a safe place for BS. But I don't feel very safe here.

I guess that's why I don't come here very often.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= I completely agree...from now on let's try to focus completely on helping each other through our issues and being there for the Newbies...I know our safe place doesn't seem very safe, that is why the private board was created...to take more sensitive issues somewhere safe away from prying eyes...it is entirely safe.

We do seem to post more here because not everyone has access to the private board until they have graduated from "boot camp" and this is where the Newbies come first. Perhaps we should all utilize the private board more and just check in here regularly for the Newbies...I don't know...just a thought.

I sure understand your feelings and share them. It's been pretty tough around here for the past couple years since we have so many OW's from the "other board" feeling free to mouth off here whenever they want...they sure don't tolerate any of us coming there for one minute unless we are completely empathetic to them...they chase us out of there very uncerimoniously and rudely. And naturally, many Betrayeds have left here because of it because of all the OW's from the "other board" posting here at will....it is just too difficult to get through a thread without debating those tired old cows; CS and C.

C'mon over to private once in a while...over there it feels more like it used to and we tend to be more open with each other. It feels civilized.

this is pops writing this time.. reading through this thread there was so much i wanted to respond to until i read catnips post. she hit the nail right on the head. we should be here to help each other and any new members that come here.

we should offer stories of success from our own experiences and hopefully those who need help can find it somewhere in our posts.

for the record i don't place fh in the group of crazy ow married or single. i also don't place her om in the group of lunatic om like i know all wh's who do nothing but prey on lonely married women just to have a roll in the hay.

lynn,, if you are posting here just to cause trouble and rile feathers it would probably be best if you didn't post.

mo5,,,,, i want to thank you for joining our group way back when as it was your story that showed me it was possible for me to work thru this mess by doing what i think was right for ALL children involved.

back on topic. i don't think it matters if an ow/om is married or not. some people are just plain old vindictive and some people are remorseful for their mistakes.

Excellent points Pepperband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
Excellent points Pepperband. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

I agree with others who think that your "bunny boiler" and "bending over backwards" remarks were nasty and intended to hurt not enlighten.

If I had to say one thing to all of us .... it is something suggested from AA and AlAnon meetings:

Lets put

***principles over personalities***

In my opinion, this guideline would elevate the debate to a more useful and decent level.


I know that personally, when I have violated that suggestion myself, I have lost my way to effective communication.

I think the topic of this thread is interesting.... and I think that people having affairs are *behaving like idiots* .... during their affair!!!

Behaving like an idiot is not necessarily a permanent state of being. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Former idiots can reform and become enlightened individuals. Same as I view alcoholics. While my H was an active drinker or a non-drinking but un-treated alcoholic, he was behaving like an *idiot* to the level of *major idiot*.

Today, he is a dream of a man and husband.

I think where this conversation (and other conversations) gets messy is when the "past or present tense" of affairee behavior is unclear.

People have a duty to grow and change for the better. A duty to themselves and to society as a whole.


Pep

I can see the viewpoint of there being no difference between an unmarried OW and a MOW. Married or single, she is the one that along w/ the WH ripped apart the M, and stole so much from the BW.

I think there are differences though.

1. I would think the odds are greater that if a MOW gets pregnant, you would be able to wash your hands of her and OC completely. Mostly due to the fact her H may decide to be the father in every way, including financially.

2. WH quite possibly may never find out the MOW is pregnant in the first place. This could be true of a single OW too, but it just seems more likely with a MOW.

3. A BW could take some comfort in knowing her WH and OW only ripped apart one marriage instead of two if OW is single.

As for how OW behaves after the A, I don't think it's determined by whether she is a MOW or single. I believe it boils down to, (no pun intended), whether she has changed her life around or not.

Has she become a woman of character and integrity?

Has she demonstrated true remorse?

Has she shown respect to the BW?

Has she respected the decisions made by MM and BW, (finally respecting their marriage)?

Pepper I totally agree with you. I know while I was going through it I was down right stupid. Even not being in a marriage, I knew better and knew what I was doing was wrong. It took a major major "surprise" and slap in the face to wake me up and for that I thank God for everything I've gone through in the past few months. I know it's far from over in my situation and hopeing I can handle what ever comes my way as I have so far......but I know the person I am and how I raised to believe and the stupidty I feel for everything that has happened and for letting it go on as long as it just makes me sick. I basically wasted 13 months of my life for stupidty. The end result........? The rest of my life will be the end result. Don't get me wrong....I love all my kids the same and don't regret my decision to keep her, but life as I knew it will be totally different and I must accept it and go with it. As well, I have to live with the fact that I helped put another marriage and family in turmoil. Not that I don't feel xmm had his part in it, but he is taking no blame and in my nature I always take on the extra.
edited to add: As an ow I am sorry I have invaded this board and will limit my posting.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>