Lynn G - AMEN!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> KT you are the most wonderful patient person there is here. I would love to meet you two in person ! Maybe in heaven we will see each other and know that, that is the person I help or that helped me. I'm hoping that our OW gets so mad w/the papers and the DNA that she is NOT going to get out of that she will just leave !! My prayer "God please take my enemies from me" !! Keep the log book and emails and all papers because someday the OC may show up w/ the OW version of why. Just like my H told the OW when she told him what was he going to say when the OC asked why weren't you there when I was born and he said because I was with my wife and family ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And she wouldn't allow his family to be there. (Like I actually want to be) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And we have to remember that the OW use us to get back at our H's so we need to watch that too. When OW realize we (BW) are smarter than them (OW) maybe they will stop acting stupid and get some kind of respect for themselves and their children and do what is right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Don't know if it will ever happen but would be nice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:

As for your hurt, nope, It does not belong on this thread for sure. You were not an innocent party at all. Your hurt is self inflicted. Deal with it.

What has me angy that you are here, even mentioning what is best for oc, an then talking about YOUR pain. KT is a good person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no where am I mentioning my "pain." I am annoyed at MM's request if anything. I think you are misunderstanding my intentions. I am sure KT is a wonderful person and I am not trying to make light of her pain. I am just saying she either trusts her husband or she doesnt, if she needs to be on a 3 way call to feel better then it seems she doesnt trust him, as demonstrated by his reaction to her request. I would suggest something a little more fool proof, so that he could pull no stunts with OW. Better yet, just communicate with the lawyers and dont deal with her at all because it causes to much drama all the way around.
Lynn,
As far as my pregnancy, i shouldnt even have brought it up on this thread. The circumstances are way more complicated than you could imagine. So I will start another thread on that.

i have been trying to stay away from this board for reasons just like the last post by my dear friend lynn.

those narrow and bitter views from a person who simply offered advice are uncalled for.

you come on here flailing you pure hatred of all ow regardless of ones individual circumstances and knowing what the specifics are of their situation which does no one any good. it just wastes space.

you have been able to offer some excellent legal advice that i am sure has helped many. but your unsensitive and discompassionate attitudes that jump to conclusions and just blindly lash out at anyone with different views from your own should be regarded as senseless fodder. these actions show make it clearly evident that you fail consistantly to even read completely what people post here.

nyc did not in any way lecture kt on what was good for her oc. she mearly offered an opinion that might have helped her.

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,, i have been posting to you on your other thread and would like to offer this opinion regarding your situation with ow and oc c vs nc.

if it is indeed in your court papers (legal documents) then i see no reason for not persueing an end to support what the judge has ruled on. just try and keep yourself focused on the facts and not the fact that it is an ow you are battleing in court. the latter could prove to fatal (so to speak) for your case as you may get so hung up on the pride issue of trying to beat her that you overlook the common sense issues.

on the ending contact issue i would like to offer this opinion. and please remember that it is only based on what LITTLE i know of your situation.

1st i am curious to know for how long you have had contact with oc and how close is each member of your family with oc? i am assuming (and hate to do that) that since she is 6 yo that it has been for several years so i will ask you what you will be teaching all the children with whom your child and oc have interacted. that if something isn't perfect you turn and walk away? what does it say for your commitment to se things thru once you start them? maybe your child would learn that if her homework is to hard then just get rid of it.

i am sure also that in this 6 years your own child has formed some kind of attachment to the oc. so what about his/her feelings and again how do you explain that to him/her so that he/he doesn't end up wotrrying that mom and dad may someday get rid of him/her if things are not perfect.

all i am really saying is that if your relationship with oc HAS been going on for many years i think all adults involved need to sit down and do some real soul searching before they end up walking out on ANY child.

AGAIN i am NOT advocating contact in all situations. i agree with lynn that you sem to be a caring, compassionate and loving mother and person or else you wouldn't be here trying to figure this whole mess your in out. but please don't let the advice of someone who carries such anger and bitterness sway the your decision. if you choose nc for the right reasons then i can except that. but in your case not mearly for the contempt of ow. not after all this time of being in that childs life.

just my thoughts, take them or leave them, that's your choice, pops

POPS I know it makes my stomache turn when I read a lot of posts on here now. People like LynnG spewing her hatred out. It was a much better place when there was a balance of views. Now there is such over bearing hatred spewed. Ran out some great peope like you and Full house (and others...sorry not to mention more names) that really gave some good sound advice. A different perspective that seemed healthier. You speak so well...you have away that you put things....I wish you would do it more often. The hatred can not be the overall voice here. That is just too sad. Everyone can over come and make their marriages stronger without the hatred attached to it. To me it seems masked...and then to bring religious tones to it.

______________
by pops:
1st i am curious to know for how long you have had contact with oc and how close is each member of your family with oc? i am assuming (and hate to do that) that since she is 6 yo that it has been for several years so i will ask you what you will be teaching all the children with whom your child and oc have interacted. that if something isn't perfect you turn and walk away? what does it say for your commitment to se things thru once you start them? maybe your child would learn that if her homework is to hard then just get rid of it.

i am sure also that in this 6 years your own child has formed some kind of attachment to the oc. so what about his/her feelings and again how do you explain that to him/her so that he/he doesn't end up wotrrying that mom and dad may someday get rid of him/her if things are not perfect.

all i am really saying is that if your relationship with oc HAS been going on for many years i think all adults involved need to sit down and do some real soul searching before they end up walking out on ANY child.
______________

I have thought this all through millions if not more, times in my head. This would never be a rash decision.

We have known OC for (only) almost 2 years, even though OC is 6.

I have wondered what all of "this" will and is teaching my children.

I can only hope and not guarantee what they will learn.

I hope they will learn that we all make mistakes, some bigger and more evident than others.

I hope they learn that their actions have consequences, some dire.

I hope they learn also, that thier actions affect more people than they think.

I hope they learn that "sin" hurts people and touches every one they love.

About things being "too hard" and "giving up", HELLO!!!!!

I'm sorry but there is a difference between someone not finishing thier homework and then someone stepping into your life and deliberately trying to hurt you and your family. I DON'T want my children to learn that you do not protect your family and continue to allow someone to hurt them.

I want my children to learn that we will protect them, thier childhood AND their family.

I think they will learn that love is redeemable and nothing is unforgiveable and that neither of these things can be accomplished without Jesus Christ our Saviour.

I am too tired to think much less write much more.

In Lynn's defense, not that she needs it from me, I think she can hold her own very well. I don't see her as "spewing hatred". I respect her candor and defense of BS everywhere. Just because she doesn't waffle in her views does not mean that she is bitter and angry.

Come on people, get realisitic. LynnG and her H have chosen a path that AVOIDS all the pain and madness that I and my family am currently experiencing, how is that wrong?

I wish I would have met her 2 years ago and could have avoided it myself.


edited for typos and to add:
As far as the "soul searching", I have been doing nothing else for the past 2 years!!!!!! I have even asked OW to do the same but unfortuneately with Her soul searching comes insults and unecessary details as she tries to butt into MY life and hurt me and my family. Do you really think I should allow that to continue for the "sake of OC"?

And how INTERESTING that OW writes these intrusive comments of hers and then ends the email w/ remarks about IF we continue to be in OC life....hmmmm....wonder what her motivation was/is. Get out of her & OC life or she will continue to make MINE miserable??!!!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

What do you think these posts are for? I write to help explore my thoughts, feeling, failings, successes and struggles with this WHOLE thing. And I appreciate the feedback, it helps to make things more clear sometimes and more complicated others.

I don't think ANYONE would make a decision like this lightly. We're BS but NOT heartless like some of you would think.

Maybe I do whine too much, some have an easier time w/ this and maybe some heal quicker. I honestly believe I and my marriage would be much further along in this "process" if OC was not in our lives.

There are good days when I think I can do "this" and there are bad days (& hellish days like last week) when my H and I both just say-what the heck are we doing to ourselves!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Because of this ABNORMAL situation in our lives it makes everyday things seem so much more stressful sometimes. For instance in 2 weeks older son has academic testing. He must be there by 9 am, the same days we have OC and we take her to school, there is tons of traffic and H usually does not get home until 9 am. So we need to leave @ 7 am to get OC to school @ 8 am and somehow be back in time to get BC where he needs to be by 9 am!

This kind of stuff stresses me out! It is just extra stress! We chose a lifestyle (initially) that was low stress and suddenly I'm surrounded by it.

Maybe this is normal stuff to some people and that is why you can't understand but for me this is over and beyond.

And if we ever chose to end C and go exclusively NC, do you really think I believe it would be forever. OF course not, I would be expecting a knock on the door in 10 years or sometime when OC reached her teen years at least!

I have it all planned out in my mind of what we would do, how we would go about it and what NC would really look like for us.

I have thought this through in detail.

*******
LynnG, your posts make it soooo unbelievable clear. Somehow translating all that clarity in real life seems so complicated. (I think OC's name means "clarity")

After small CS victory yesterday H and I are going to try one last time, w/ new attorney to make the custody agreement full-proof and to assert ALL of H rights about OC then......that will be our last attempt and we can rest in the knowledge that we really have done all we could possibly do and I will have a 100% clear conscience in whatever steps we take after that.

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

KT, well good for you!! Just keep living and loving.

Pops, well, you and I will forever disagree about lots of things. But I do agree with your thoughts on fighting to beat the ow, instead of what is for the best.

Mom of 5 - If you want to think of me as bitter since I have little/no sympathy for a woman who gets herself pregnant by a man who is not able to be a father for whatever reason, so be it. I stand FIRMLY in the corner of the wife and the children of the marriage. If some ow doesn't like it to bad. Personally I find it BITTER on the ow part to even consider that the man and his family need to or should accomodate the child, when she certainly was not thinking about his children. I will constantly advise BW that THEY AND THEIR CHILDREN COME FIRST. I will always disagree with OW and their kind who believe anything different. The wife should not have to accomodate the ow/oc wishes at all. And KT and her family are a classic case of why contact does not work. Upheaval. Drama. OW playing games. And on and on and on.

OW types HATE anyone who support and encourage the BW to fight back. To stand tall. To be firm. That it is perfectly ok, and probably for the BEST to NOT have contact with the oc. To be totally and 100% honest with what the BW WANTS and to heck with the ow and the oc. Everybody gets one life to live, live it the way YOU want. That INCLUDES THE BW. SHE has a right to peace and happiness too.

LynnG you can step off your soap box for a minute. I don't care who you support...it is in the manner of how you speak. I wouldn't want you to agree with everything or anything I say. I like that people have different opinions than I do. Oh what a boring world if everyone was a like. When I read what or how you write it feels like words of hatred coming out. You clump all OW together...like they are the devil themselves. BUT for the WS that these woman are married to don't seem like they get the same backlash from you.
For your information I am all for someone protecting themselves the best they can. I don't believe in playing cruel. I remember you saying leaving the OC $1.00 in your will. TO me that is an unusually cruel thing to do to a child...any child. I see your point about leaving the OC something so they can't sue the estate. Like I said I am all for protecting ones self. But I see this OC in their early 30's...getting word that his biological father left something to him pertaining to his will. So first off this might be the first word this OC gets of his fathers death...then to be slapped in the face by $1.00. Even at my age I wouldn't feel it a slap in the face if I was left $2,500 or whatever was minimal to the estate. Even a $1,000 is better than $1. I thought that was so cruel. One of the cruelest things I have ever heard. This child didn't ask to be brought into this world. You shouldn't take your anger out on the OC. So I really loose respect when you go out of your way to be unusually cruel.

Well, so be it. But the point is to make sure the child can't sue the estate right? That is a LEGAL move to protect my children. You are proving one of my points, ow only like the law when it serves them. When it is used to protect the nuclear family, well then it is wrong and cruel and mean.

The wrong and cruel and mean deed was the affair itself. My children and I did not ask for this in our lives either. Yet we have paid the child support as mandated by the law. If you are so appalled at the thought of the oc not getting any money from the estate, are you equally as appalled at the amount of money over 18 years that the children of the marriage lose out on? Isn't it mean and cruel of the OW to expect them to lose out on that money???? Or is that different? Why?

See, it is a two way street. You are only seeing it from the side of the oc. What is best for oc. How mean it would be to oc. How will the oc feel. I will turn it right around at you and say, leaving $$ would not be best for MY children. It would be mean and cruel to expect them to, etc. See, two way street.

That is what has you all upset. That I do NOT worry about oc or what will or will not upset him. He is not my concern. MY children are.

Back to the same old argument. THE OC IS NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO OWNS A PIECE OF THE HURT PIE. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off everyone will be. The ow needs to take her part in the damage she has created to not only her own child, but to the BW and her children. Just as the MM has to realize what he has done. Lots of people are hurt. NOT JUST THE OC.

The wife and her children should not have to shoulder the responsibility to make everything all right. They are just as much victims as the oc.

It is perfectly legal for an ow to get child support. Why is it NOT legal to leave oc out of the will? Good grief, you say that I am mean and bitter, yada yada, listen to yourself?

All you do is whine about the plight of the oc. Yet it is wrong for a BW to fight and take care of her children?

Hypocrite.

No I think it is YOU who doesn't understand what I am saying. I think you can protect your children without slapping the OC with leaving them $1. I wouldn't have cared if you left them totally out...which I would prefer than the dollar. But I understand about protecting your assest in case after your death. BUT I do not think leaving a little higher amount so it isn't a slap in the face to the OC. I don't think your children would suffer if the OC got say the equivalent of 2 support paymemts. I am just saying I think the $1 is very cruel to someone that is also innocent.
I believe in a lot of what you do say. I think it works both ways. I do have a problem with when I think you step over the line and are intentionally cruel. Hey, I will be right there with the BS if I think they are getting played by the OW or the H.
Just like I am very happy for KT in her victory. They played it by the law. I don't like it that they can't afford healthcare for their children. NOR do I think they should have to pay half of OC private school. Especially if their own children are not in private school!
So when you give sound advice without lashing your hatred out that ALL OW are this or that. OR that you are doing something directly cruel to the OC by leaving them $1 in the will yes...I think that is just WRONG! But that is my opinion. I have a right to my opinion just as you do yours.

I get it. Don't agree with it, but I get it. I would never expect my children to lose out on money to the oc if their father died. Sorta like expecting my children to now pay for his mistake. Nope. They lost enough cause of his affair and resulting child support. That was his mistake. I feel as if my children have lost out on enough.

Here again, is the kicker. The wife and her kids see things differently then the ow/oc. So who is right?

My kids had the day they learned of oc. All the pain and confusion, etc. Oc had to learn at one point of not having his real father, etc. So who hurts more?

My kids wanting things, can't cause of cs. They are angry. Very angry at their dad. Protective of mom. OC wanting things, can't cause not enough money. Probably angry. Protective of mom.
Which one hurts more?

Examples can go on and on. Who is hurt worse? The bottom line is they all get to be hurt and disillusioned and upset and embarrassed. They ALL get it. Totally the fault of MM and OW. Absolutely not one ounce of that can be blamed on the children or the wife.

So, the point is, if the oc is hurt at the will, well his mother will have to deal with it. Just as the MM has to deal with the fallout from his kids. Sorry, it goes all over the place.

Lynn, I think your right. Everyone suffers here and its because on two people being selfish to their own needs and wants!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But the BS and BC and OC had no choice in the matter, no one stopped to ask them how they would feel it all of the actions of OW & MM blew up in their face!!! I am a beleiver that a woman has control over her body and therefore she chooses to go thru with all the hurt to everyone. Yes it took two to make it, but one who could control the situation and prevent it. I didn't want any more children, so my body, I FIXED IT!!! Many OW, I think use, this to get the MM. Most MM if they where told ok if we do this I'm going to get preg, then (I would hope) they wouldn't go for it. If asked I'm sure most of the OW where told by MM to "get and A." Thats the way most men fix things. It's soooo much fun and exciting for the OW and MM and then the BS, BC, OC are the ones in the middle suffering. The BS tring to hold everything they worked for together and the MOST OW being a pain and cause hurt and pain to the ones they blame for their pain. AND THEY CREATED THIER OWN PAIN !! They didn't get paid to have sex, why should they be paid for something they created out of lies, and deceat. I'm like lynn. why should we care about the ones that caused so much pain. They didn't think about us when they were created these little bundle of joys, that grow up thinking they cause the pain. Lynn, after all of that blah blah blah, I want to say I thank you for being so candid and truthful. Two sides to every story and you have helped many deal with their pain and fears.

Well thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have lived this and am not new to it.

OW do NOT want a BW empowerd and swinging back. It will work better if the BW is a whimpering hurt soul. That way the OW can run roughshod all in the name of "doing what is best for the oc". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But, boy if one stands up and says "Wait a minute, MY kids are coming first" then suddenly the ow has the wife painted as some evil woman who wants to rip off poor innocent children.

And so the fight is on.

LynnG you don't know a darn thing about me. My situation is pretty perplex. I feel the pain being a child that didn't know my father either. But I was not an OC. But my husband has OC. I was one of those BS that didn't want this OC to be raised not knowing his father. So I pushed for him to have his fatherly rights. The OW was out of state. OH boy did she know how to be a real witch and get her attorneys to work the system. They held that up in court for over 2 years! Thousands of dollars. Then she remarried...somehow they got the courts to put her husband adopting her son in front of our paternity case. So the lawyers wanted thousands of more dollars to fight that case. THey were in a small county...all the attorneys knew each other. Since we were out of state...and over 10 years ago when fathers didn't have a chance in court we had to give up the case. We had a young family and it had cost us enough financially and emotionally. But I don't feel like hooray we don't have to pay for this child and take away from our family. I feel a loss. Now with who knows what the OW told this child he may never want to know us...or feel like he shouldn't look us up. I am glad he has a father figure in his life full time..because we live too far and couldn't have done that. BUT I would never leave him $1 in our will. I won't leave him as much as our children either because i am sure he will be left something from his adoptive dad. As far as I know they weren't planning on having any more kids. Yes, there is a lot of hurt. Sometimes I still have things I have to overcome if my H wants to go out with the guys after work. Or if he went out and bought his own new underware...there are triggers! Maybe the hurt will never go away. BUT I would never do something to hurt that child to hurt him emotionally.
Okay there is more to my story but don't want to write a novel...especially on someone else's thread. Like I said I agree with a lot of what you say. But your presentation sometimes really screams out hatred to me. Hard to believe you are healed and over your pain.
So I don't agree that all OW are out to get all they can. Our OW was more into having all the control over her son and calling my H just a sperm donor.
A lot of your antics remind me of the crap some of my friends X's are pulling. They were even married and do everything under the sun to screw their own kids out of money. One went from a high paying job to min. wage job. Had a great lawyer...my friend was in dire straights and couldn't afford a lawyer...so I think she had a state appointed one. For 3 kids he got off paying like $300! Then another friend's X cheated with a person at work and left her for that OW. He did something underhanded at work and was about to get fired but they gave him the option of quitting. So then he decided to stay home and watch OW kids. He got in arrears. Got a bad paying job compared to the one he had. But with arrears he decided it wasn't worth working. His girlfriend thinks it is better for him to watch her kids so she doesn't have to pay daycare and he doesn't have to pay CS for his kids. OH we won't go into all the stories I have. I don't like any child getting the raw end of the deal. I don't like children of the marriage being thought of on a lesser scale than the OC. I wish there was a more fair way for all kids to be computed. But I don't have all the answers. I don't think there is a fair way that works for everyone. Especially when there is people that play it unfairly.
So even though I agree with alot you have to say. I also feel you put some things out there that also hurts the OC which is also innocent in this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> Well thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have lived this and am not new to it.

OW do NOT want a BW empowerd and swinging back. It will work better if the BW is a whimpering hurt soul. That way the OW can run roughshod all in the name of "doing what is best for the oc". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
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Lynn, even I think a bw should stand up for her kids, as I would stand up for my twins. I think you have taken what you want the ow to think of you instead of what the ow really thinks. It's one thing to screw her over, another to protect yourself.
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But, boy if one stands up and says "Wait a minute, MY kids are coming first" then suddenly the ow has the wife painted as some evil woman who wants to rip off poor innocent children.
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No, again there is a difference between screwing over and being unfair and mean versus standing up for themselves. Like you said in one of your post......your uh did this too. So not only did your uh screw you , he is also screwing his oc that has his blood running through his viens. All the kids are innocent here. The only way I would think that someone else is evil is if they act in a evil way. Does not matter who they are.
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And so the fight is on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have seen you show compasion and then spew comes out of your mouth. I do have to agree that I even agree with some things you say, but I do think you justify your actions. Which is just as bad as the mm/ow justifing the affair. I agree with momof5 that how unfair it is when they can't afford to put there own kids on medical insurance. Kids can fall any time and break an arm, and they get sick. Medical costs are way to high with one kid let alone with 3. It's not fair. You have shown your ow that she will never have your life, your h, your money, your nothing. The difference between you and some of the others here is that they can't afford to hire a great lawyer who also happens to be a friend and hire the accountants to hide there money, or get away with filiing a false seperation because the ow is to afraid of the bs to investiagate and bring them back to court for fraud. I hope you also tell these gals that they could be taking a chance by doing the things they are doing that you have suggested instead of just getting an attorney and being honest. Did your ow hide her assests too in order to try and get more money? If so that would make you both wrong. I know for one that if I caught my xmm and wife pulling the stuff you did, I'd hire a PI in a flat second and prove it all wrong and drag him back into court for trying to screw over his flesh and blood. I'm playing by the rules and so should all the other adults. But if for some reason he would get away with it, maybe on this earth he would, but not at the end of his days when he has to meet his maker.....and before you want to ask me where my morals where when I slept with him????? Don't. I have already been there and faced that. It's a mistake never to be made again. My daughter will pay by not having her flesh and blood father. So tell me who is having to give up here? You have choosen to stay with your uh which means you have to accept what is. Leaving one dollar in the will, how evil is that? Why bother leaving anything? Just have to get one last dig in before the you die? Or before your h dies?

kt,,,,,,,,,,,,

..................................
I'm sorry but there is a difference between someone not finishing thier homework and then someone stepping into your life and deliberately trying to hurt you and your family.
.......................................
homework was just used here as an exampple of what your chldren might learn about life. not that i was trying to compare homework with the pain of infidelity. what if when your kids are older the lesson they remember is that they are having troubles with their own spouse so what the heck they will just leave. that was the piont i was trying to allude to. the just walking when things aren't going your way. but that doesn't matter.

if you and h decide after this next attempt at getting your ow in line on nc then that if fine. all i was doing is trying to point out another side of this coin. it seems so easy for bs spouses to hate the ow and in the name of "protecting my family" and on the advice and encouragement of some elders who carry the flame of anger for years walk away from oc.

your posts tell me that you have looked at things from many angles. the fact that you are going back to court and have continued visitation for 2 years say that you really do care about oc. it is just the ow that yu are having a problem with.

with my oldest son his mom was a real bi!#$. she did everything imaginable to pi$$ me off and get me to stay away. but once i had made the connection with my son there was no way i was going to walk out on HIM.

now i am not necessarily a gambling man unless i see a sure thing and i'll bet you $100 to your day old donut on this. your ow is being such a pain in the a$$ so that she can beat YOU again and teach your h a lesson by driving you out of her life and also keeping his money. she is trying to make him PAY for what he did to her.

same bet on the fact every time you and h take the oc for visitation it drives her crazy and she hates it.

i think you are correct and i'll make that bet one more time that someday down the road oc will knock on your door if you choose nc. and you can be assured that she will take it very personal and have a hard time understanding that you and h walked out of her life because you couldn't deal with ow. beacuse remember ow will have spent years filling her head with negative things about you and h with oc ever seeing or having any feedback to show her differently. but then again YOU are concerned about YOUR family not ow's family. one of which like it or not is YOUR stepdaughter.

i wish you and yours the best in which ever path you choose. see i'm headed for margarita ville.

lynn,,,,,,,,,,,,, by your definition and remembering that i am also a BS i guess i if i am worn out at the end of the day or just plain tired i should not have to ACCOMODATE grace should she need something or maybe wake up at 3 am from a bad dream or maybe if i'm just mad at om for some off the wall trigger. after all that may make me a little grumpy with my bio kids if i were up all night with the OC.

fortunately i missed your message about protecting yourself from ow by leaving OC $1. what a crock of misguided garbage that is. what a shame that you are such a materialistic person that in the name of "protecting yours" you would slight one of YOUR H'S children. that's right i didn't use the term OC intentionally because no matter what you want to think your h has all the children that you 2 produced together PLUS ONE.
true that child doesn't deserve anything special but he/she deserves to at least be acknowledged in a way that is not insulting. leave rthe child out of the will but don't insult him/her.

you see (no i guess you never will) but in the name of "protecting your family" you are punishing one of YOUR H'S CHILDREN. you continueally offer advice to get back at ow by punishing a child.

you seem to forget that although i am supporting c in many instances that i to am a bs dealing with an oc. the difference is that i look at things thru open eyes seeing each individual case for it's own specific facts. where as you are unwavering and closed minded about any other view then your own. i can except the fact that for some nc is best but for you c is always wrong.

i know what you are going to say to me "it is different when the ws is the w and the oc is born into the h's house". sure i'll tell you what the difference is plain and simple. when a h is the ws it is much easier to say to the bs w to have nc. the reason is simple that as long as the h stays they rid themselves of the ow and he still gets to have his kids in the house with him when he gets up in the morning.

on the other hand when the w is the ws and a h wants to choose nc for the most part he is also saying "see you later to his kids". because if he doesn't want to deal with the oc or om he will have to divorce his w and 99% of the time that means he will be scr#wed by the cs agencies and have to move out of his family's home.

now i am not saying that this is the case in my own situation. i had many reasons for wanting grace's bio dad to pay his cs but one of them was that i looked at beating him at something. which was a wrong reason.

you can constantly blame all A's on the ow/om trying to say that you know the ws had a part in it yet you simply beat up the op. tell me do you beat up your h as badly or is he an innocent also? even the narrowest of minds has to be able to see that some of the ow here have made poor judgements but at the same time poor judgenments and lies were also thrown around by all ws's.

oinions of different color are great but presentation is what classifies you as bitter.

Ya know, I've been away for a while. I've been busy with school, my new career and preoccupied and don't lurk much these days. Some of the reason for my absence is that this forum has sadly changed and is loaded with OW shoving their opinions down everyone's throat and then there are the bleeding heart BS that parrot the mantra of the OW.

I see a LOT of people freaking out and calling logical information and pragmatic advice "spewing hated and bittereness and cruelty" and it cracks me up. Where the F is this coming from? Since when is common sense considered "spewing cruelty hatefulness and bitterness? This stuff Lynn says is simply logical suggestions that will serve the BS and BC and you crucify her for it. And THAT defies logic.

Comparing "logic" to cruelty (or whatever the favored manipulated word is to cause shame and contrition and compliance) is kind of like bemoaning the laws of nature and calling them cruel, bitter and hateful for depositing too much rain that causes mud slides, or blaming el nino as unjust, bitter and hateful for out of control fires that destroy homes. The point being that you cannot argue with logic and the laws of nature without making yourself sound like an imbecile for demanding that you get preferential treatment simply by creating (through deceit) an OC that you are now demanding income shares for, emotional support for, integration into the XMM's home and imposing yourself and the OC into a family's life that has probably never heard of you before D-day. I mean, the crust of these people slay me.

Their sudden post D-day appearance into our lives is such a HUGE imposition and intrusion. While most BS are sorry for the OC, the OC belongs to its mother. It's Mom's problem! It is not MY problem. I have three kids. I have two grandkids. I do have room in my heart and home for OC NOW that time has passed and healing has happened, but it would still be extremely difficult to explain OC's existance to family, friends, acquaintances and while I know that OC will probably end up on the perverbial doorstep someday, we are ready and prepared to welcome this child into our life. But, that's our choice and not something that is supposed to be forced on us under the circumstances.

Ninety percent of the time, the OC's Mom wants NOTHING to do with any BS involvement whatsoever, and will usually be creating trouble and making demands while picking their pocket. And we are all supposed to embrace all this? Are you out of your freaking minds? Are you insane?

As Bee and Myst and Chud and Jil and all the others on TOW who constantly and unceremoniously demanding BS to "get the F off their board" saying "this board is NOT for BS...go to MB, the "cult" and stay off our site with all the other Christians."

They have a point. As they want us to stay the F off their site..... they and all the other OW's should stay the F off this site. The TOW ladies are always, always saying that BS do not belong on their board and will tell BS that they are stepping on "thin ice" if they say anything even remotely against their cult's mantra. So, the same should apply here as well. I totally respect their right to have their own space without BS marching over there and mouthing off just as all OW's here should go to TOW and stay off MB, because, they are in the wrong place.

Because of the heavy infiltration of OW (who are treated a hell of a lot better here than BS are treated on TOW) our site has changed dramatically and it isn't fun anymore if every single time someone offers information or an opinion that offends an OW, the bonafide member here is chastised for their POV.

Everyone go to their own boards and stay the F off each others' board and let's get this site back to where there are no word police, no accusations, no character assassiinations or that mindless bullshyt crap about "cruelty, bitterness and hatefulness" because if you want to see the gold standard of cruelty, bitterenss and hatred...just read TOW. You won't freaking believe it. We got absolutely nothing on them in that catagory.

The whole idea of this site was for people suffering the fallout of infidelity with an OC could come and discuss without having the word cops censor their words, thoughts and POV, and find a way to recover their marriages, restore their families and hopefully, heal from the devastation.

Now stop the ridiculous, stupid mewlings about OC and stop acting like any logical information that protects a BS and BC offends your delicate sensibilties, causing you to cut open a vein for the OC like they are the only person who matters when they are not the responsiblity of the BS. It makes no sense! What is wrong with you people? Have you lost all sense of logic and proportion? The BS and BC are not the ones who caused all this heartache and misery so lay the F off and go away. These people are dealing with the worst possible thing that can happen to their marriage and family, suffering enormous pain and are scared shytless and worried about their kids, their home, their life as they knew it. Stop trying to make Lynn and others measure their words so the OW here don't get offended.

As for leaving the OC a buck in a will so that they cannot sue the estate is just good sense...it's not the BS's responsibility to make sure the OC doesn't get hurt feelings over it. If the XMM and BS want to leave something more to the OC, they can adjust the will at a later date if and when a relationship is estabilished. It's up to them. Wills are changed all the time. People have their reasons for how they divide their assets and it is none of the OW's business.

Why are the BS suddenly responsible for placating OC or OW when none of them ever gave a good goddam about any of you BS? They laugh at you, berate you, mock you, make fun of you, call you disgusting names, behave like whores and rally together encouraging each other to screw the XMM, chortle at glee at your pain and heartache, wish you every rotten thing in life and delight in your struggles as they call the BS and initiate D-day. They couldn't care less if your children are heartsick, embarrassed, disgusted, fearful, hurt, lost, feeling rejected, feeling the tension in the home, watching the BS sob their heart out, hearing the angry words, not having enough money to buy necessitites...I mean PLEASE, YOU PEOPLE....wake the F up.

Pops. I have enormous respect for you, but you are on the other side of this and very bonded with your child and you're taking generalizations personally and acting as if Lynn is abusing your daughter telepathically or insulting a child that has no clue what is discussed here. No need to be so thin-skinned since your situation is different in the sense that you and your wife are raising this little girl together in a huge loving family. TRUST ME...if you were a woman and you were where we are, you would feel the exact same way or dang close to it.

None of my rantings are directed at former WS's working on their marriage as they DO belong here. Former WS's are NOT OW.

The reason I posted this here intead on Private is that I want the OW here to read this. I would also like to offer them an alternative to MB and give them a link that would suit their needs better. www.gloryb.com

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

catnip I only read 1/2 of your post. I personly don't think I took everything that lynn said and slandered it. I did however take the facts that I wrote about. I think I was not the only either. As far as bs coming to tow well, we have quite a few that do come there and are more than welcomed. I in no way have insulted anyone for c or nc. In fact I never said that xmm must have contact as I don't care. If I have to I'll do it, but I'm not worried about it. What I was talking about was her cruelty and it was cruel! If you agree with what lynn said than maybe I had you all wrong. If you believe that someone should leave anyone 1.00 just to laugh then I guess I was wrong about you. The bs keeps on throwing in that the child concieved out of deciet, but that h helped with that. Hello! You've forgiven your husband. Is noone other than your husband able to change and see they were wrong? I did not bash Lynn, I just said that the advise she gives could get someone in trouble. It's the truth. I also said if you read it, that I do believe that the bs should protect her kids, but in a legal moral manner. I could go and lie about my income easily in order to "screw" xmm out money, but it's not right and I have to live with that. I have to do what's right, so should everyone else. That is all I said. Now pops said what I said, but because he is a bs it was okay for him to say it? I respect Pops and I respect FH for what they have accomplished. But because I'm the "OW" actually I'm the xow I'm insulting you?
also I can count at least 3 people over here who post over there at tow and even though I say what I feel I don't call them names, nor do I run them off until they start calling names because of there anger. I welcome a bs who can give me insight as well. If you can't grow and learn from each other than what are these things for?

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

I have never bashed my ow, or 2 oc's. I do agree somewhat with Lynn and catnip. They give some forthright advice.

ember

[QUOTE]Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB] catnip I only read 1/2 of your post. I personly don't think I took everything that lynn said and slandered it.

=^^= Well, that then is the problem. If you read the entire post, you would see I said absolutely nothing about you or even mentioned the word "slandered" in relation to Lynn.

I did however take the facts that I wrote about. I think I was not the only either.

=^^= Which "facts" were those?

As far as bs coming to tow well, we have quite a few that do come there and are more than welcomed.

=^^= Oh yeah? Like who? Just the Wife? Pristine Beauty? They aren't welcome unless they completely conform, kowtow and make sure they don't tread on "thin ice" because it isn't their board. Fair enough. It ain't their board and I cannot figure out why these BS needlessly subject themselves to such abuse. But, welcomed? Ha! I have read enough to know that if a BS come there, she better come on her knees, measure and watch every single word and be a total Yes-man or the "posse" will come in an chase her off...unless she apologizes profusely and demeans herself completely.

I in no way have insulted anyone for c or nc.

=^^= No one said you did.

In fact I never said that xmm must have contact as I don't care. If I have to I'll do it, but I'm not worried about it.

=^^= I was speaking in generalities and not thinking of you specifically at all.

What I was talking about was her cruelty and it was cruel!

=^^= Hmmmm....protecting her children, her finances and her standard of living is cruel. Hmmmm....that's absolutely incredible. Obviously, most of these people who think this are reacting with emotion rather than logic or common sense. Seems like a lot of knee jerk bemoaning and wailing and gnashing of teeth over something that is simply put in place to defend her own.

If you agree with what lynn said than maybe I had you all wrong.

=^^= Just so no one gets me "all wrong", I absolutely defend Lynn's right to express her POV here on MB and thank her for having the guts to guide Newbies facing incredible devastation by instructing them on ways to protect themselves and their children from something that two incredibly self serving individuals did to change her life (and her kids' lives) forever. I certainly do NOT agree with the people who are here (who are not BS or former WS working diligently on recovery) with an agenda, preaching to BS's (of all people!!!!) about their OC's and how "cruel" we BS are to want to protect our own. It's nuts! It does not make any sense. The LAST thing any BS wants to hear right now and here in this forum (their "suppposed" safe haven) is how "neglected" and deprived the OC is because of something the BS is forced to do (because of what has been done to her) to take care of her own children and family...even her own WILL...for God's sake! It's here life and her business and no business of the OW. It is so preposterous for ANY OW to come here and demand equal time for her OC and to chastise any BS for doing whatever she must to keep body and soul together. The enormous crust is amazing.

If you believe that someone should leave anyone 1.00 just to laugh then I guess I was wrong about you.

=^^= Laugh? Laugh? Are you on drugs or something? Who the F is laughing? What is so f'ing funny about having to find ways to protect yourself and your kids? You think it's fun to see your life change so dramatically that no one feels safe, happy, or good anymore because of the OW and what she did and what the WS did and how they alone screwed over your entire family? The reason why the OW bemoan their OC is because they themselves feel guilty and know what they have done to their own child and are worried sick about how sad, upset, rejected, angry, confused, humuiliated, whatever (you choose the emotion) their child will feel because of what THEY have done, that the only thing they can do is sluff off the responsibility of their kid's heartache on some clueless BS. The OW is the one truly responsible for the effects the OC will endure. Not the BS. I just don't get this pretzel logic at all.

The bs keeps on throwing in that the child concieved out of deciet, but that h helped with that. Hello!

=^^= Yeah? So? We ALL know that. That's a really tired old lament and has nothing to do with anything we are discussing here. I don't know why you all drag that old thing out to beat it around like you think it's your "excuse" or ace in the hole when that knowledge is obvious and is a given and filed away under "personal business" within the marriage between H and W and something none of you are privy to. But that's not the point. None of the WS's are here to discuss these issues, so you all beat up on the BS and make us responsible for your kid by proxy and it is getting so incredibly old. You all are talking to the wrong person about your heartburn over what the WS did to you. We are dealing with it from the other end of the spectrum and it has nothing to do with you or yours. AND, the OC was conceived in deceit. So, what's your point? You can't argue the obvious.

You've forgiven your husband.

=^^= Sure. Primarily because he is not a member of the WS forum crashing this site like a hit and run driver slinging insults and nonsense then going back to his site and bad mouthing the BS, I guess.

Is noone other than your husband able to change and see they were wrong?

=^^= Where on earth is all this coming from? You must be working entirely on emotion here and taking everything I said in my rant personally when nothing is directed at you. I spoke in generalities, NTMO. Frankly, you are not a bad OW and I am not bothered by you being here and I'm not screaming at you to "leave this site" or telling you personally to get off out board, however, we as BS "think" differently than OW and OW think differently than BS. It's like oil and water, cats and dogs, north and south, east and west. The differences are obvious. That's why there are seperate boards. And just like none of the women on TOW like any of us with strong opinions voicing their agenda on TOW, I bet most of us are mighty uncomfortable with OW's coming here and calling us out for doing what we must to survive under the guise of accusations of cruelty or some other such nonsense.

I did not bash Lynn, I just said that the advise she gives could get someone in trouble.

=^^= Well, I think it is presumptuous of people to think that someone can have so much power that Newbies can't make their own decisions, don't have a mind of their own and can be so easily influenced to do something detrimental just because someone who is smart and strong says so. Debate, even unpopular debate and discussion, can be information that can glean some sort of solution that someone hasn['t thought of before. Frankly, my husband and I agreed to divorce to protect me from losing our house and my share of our equity from our OW (who is exceptionally aggressive) with great results. We still live together and the courts don't care enough about our personal business to hire a team of investigators and perform survelliance on our house to see if he spends the night. People don't need to get paranoid about doing what they must to protect themselves. They just need to be smart.

It's the truth. I also said if you read it, that I do believe that the bs should protect her kids, but in a legal moral manner.

=^^= What is so immoral about what Lynn proposes? Isn't her and her H's will their own business? It isn't anyone else's business. Least of all the OW/OC. Besides, nothing is more hypocritical to me than hearing an OW preaching "morals".

I could go and lie about my income easily in order to "screw" xmm out money, but it's not right and I have to live with that. I have to do what's right, so should everyone else.

=^^= No one is trying to screw the OC. The courts make sure they get all the financial information so your alarm about the XMM's income is just borrowing unnecessary angst since the courts make dang sure you get everything the OC is entitled to. In fact, the things I read on TOW leads me to believe that the reverse is true as many of them are out to screw XMM and they make no bones about how all they want is the cash and how much they get or are trying to get...there is endless discussion over there about money and entitlement. The truth is that "most" (and I know there are exceptions, but my OW sure ain't one of them) OW get enormous CS compared to what many XMM and BS can afford. Before 1990, many single parents got nothing and collection was not enforced. Rates were set low and percentages were equally as low. Now the CS percentages are so attractive, hell, I wish I had a little meal ticket to collect $1500 a month for me, too. My OW played the system beautifully and I bow to her incredible tenacity. However, I think that huge amount of money for OC is plenty...and a hell of a lot more than I ever received for my three kids (ZERO $)...and I do not need to make sure we include her in our will. If it takes a buck to keep her from sueing me after my husband dies when I am already grieving with my grieving kids, when the dust settles I can decide whether or not to offer a portion of the estate. But that is YEARS down the road and a lot can happen until then. We may change our minds...we might want to include her or maybe we will have developed a relationship with her by then or we might hit the lotto and leave her a huge chunk...wills can be changed as circumstances change. No one needs to get whipped into a frenzy about what we do during the first five eyars after D-day since those eyars are spent in recovery. Besides, if the OW is hitting us up for $1500 each month, she has more disposable income than we do and she should leave us money in HER will!!! Haha. Lighten up, NTMO. THINK!

That is all I said. Now pops said what I said, but because he is a bs it was okay for him to say it?

=^^= Apparently you did not read the entire post or you would have seen my statement to pops. Read before you speak, NTMO, then you will get the whole gist of it all.

But because I'm the "OW" actually I'm the xow I'm insulting you?

=^^= Sheesh. I never said you insulted me or anyone, NTMO. I am speaking in generalities and you are waaaaay too thin-skinned and self absorbed if you think this is all about you because it isn't. This is much bigger and broader than that.

also I can count at least 3 people over here who post over there at tow and even though I say what I feel I don't call them names, nor do I run them off until they start calling names because of there anger.

=^^= Well, that's good! It is much better if we can play nice. I don't know if it is ever possible for either side to call a truce of any kind but that's not really all that important. What is important is that both boards can say whatever they want without people from the other side mouthing off a lot of nonsense on the other's site. This goes BOTH ways.

I welcome a bs who can give me insight as well. If you can't grow and learn from each other than what are these things for?

=^^= If that's true, then you will hopefully eventually gain the insight into what the BS must do to protect her own without getting all sensitive about it and act like it is going to effect your own kid or something. EAch person is talking about their own situation and delivering their own opinion on ways they can protect themselves. They should be able to do this without being called cruel, hateful and bitter or accused of laughing at the OC (which I have never ever seen done here) Newbies need this information to make informed decisions on how to protect their children and these people are smart enough to take what they need and leave the rest. It isn't fair to underestimate people simply because they are temporarily confused and not thinking clearly because they are in immense pain.

NTMO...you're a good kid but seem to be reacting on emotion rather than thinking through the logic of a situation. Instead of reacting with outrage, consider that the BS is doing whatever is necesssary to protect her own and don't take what Lynn or me or others might say personally. If you are going to wade into BS territory, you have to expect that you are going to hear some stuff that you ain't gonna like. Lord knows I have to remind myself of this each time I lurk on TOW. I've stopped mouthing off my opinions on that site because I respect their right to have their own safe place. I can say whatever I want about it here...just not there. Good luck to you and if you post here just take it with a grain of salt and realize it has nothing to do with you personally...these opinions are just the opinions of the BS or former WS here. That's all. No mystery. No hidden agenda...just the obvious.