Yeah, a poster on that Other Board is quite upset about this thread. Yawn... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Back and Forth, Back and Forth.

The thing is we write something then get accused of quoting out of context and then we are quoted out of context on the other board.alwasy a double standard.

OC----BC

One counts more than the other.

BS-----OW

One is more responsible than the other.

Depending on which side you are on decides who you think is more responsible and which child counts more.

On THIS board, we focus on marriage so our advice is to put the marriage first. On the other board, where that is not the focus, it will not be the priority.

It's not about you or me or even who's fault this is.

It's about mistakes and people who are here to repair the damage that has been done. It's about a terrible violation and all the consequences, pain & anguish and innocent lives that are affected by it.

It's about struggling to find your way when the path you are on suddenly---w/o warning has been utterly destroyed.

It's bigger than me or you, bigger than OW, MM, and BS. Sometimes it seems unbearable and it feels like there is no hope and never any answer or solution.

It's about being a mother or father and seeing your very own children hurt and you are helpless to make it better.

It is about something that started out being just about MM and OW and then blew up in everyone's faces and we are all reeling from the fall out ......... still.

What do you expect? What do you want? Every one is angry. Every one is hurt. Everyone has a valid point ........ somewhere.

Really, if women would not sleep w/ MM, then there would be no cheaters. If women did NOT put up w/ crap then men would always be on their best behaviour. If women used the power and control over our own bodies that we actually have then their would be NO unplanned pregnancies.

And if you do not act like something you once WERE then you are no longer that person or label. My H is no longer a WS. There are women here who are no longer OW. So the label does not apply to you because you are no longer that person.

These now are things that you once DID but no longer who you ARE.

That is why a BS CAN take back a lying, cheating H. Because we see that he was not always that man and he is no longer that man and he proves it everyday. Is he capable of being that man again, of course. I am capable of becoming a WW, we all are. I can become an OW if I choose. I choose not to.

I think OW have been so hurt that they find it hard to face reality and the fact that MM has changed. He is not the adulterous man she was once with. He is now finding his way back to the honorable man he once was. He is going back to his wife and family and reminding OW that she was w/ a man w/ a wife and family.

That is a hard thing to face. To face that you have to face then what you have also become. Just like BS has to face where she was and what she was during the A.

There is no excuse and there are a # of reasons why any one strays from their marriage and covenant. BS are not blind but because we knew the spouse BEFORE the A, we can remember what that spouse was once capable of being, MORE than just a WS, more than a liar and a user. We know because we would have NEVER married a liar and a user. We know that BS can return to the honorable, loving spouse they once were.

That leaves OW alone to face the fact that the MM they were w/ WAS a liar and a user and they willingly agreed to get involved w/ THAT man! Then when MM is no longer that man, obviously, he will not want to be w/ her.

It is very sad all around and devastating when a child is involved. There are lots of children involved, which is what most here on MB remember to point out and give voice too. ALL the children, ALL the childhoods that are and will be affected, ALL the innocence lost!

Just as many have advised any one here, OW or BS, to get legal advice to look after their OWN.

ANY good mother would.

As for the piece of paper thing...whatever, it doesn't even matter, that was just a plain DUMB thing to say.

It's a 'piece of paper' that holds the key if OC has MM DNA or not. Dollar bills are only 'pieces of paper' but no one discounts thier value. Our constition is a 'piece of paper' and one that defines our country. There are tons of 'pieces of paper' in this world and we all know the value of each of them and what they intrinsically imply.

The one that is in ??? here is the difference between buying and renting. One you put your time and energy to invest in and the other-----someone else OWNS and you are just borrowing and every one knows it.

AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Great post, kt!

I'll second that!!! (clapping)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>

The point of this post is to rebutt the other poster's declaration that marriage is nothing and to reinforce the pervasive notion that marriage is the foundation of an adult's life, well-being and gives each person in the couple the connection to create a bond meaningful in their lives that will see them through the good, the bad and the ugly.

this has bothered me every time I read it and if anyone is reading this stuff over there, especially Newbies, I don't want the power of suggestion to influence you and take from you what is your truth, your foundation.

Nuf said. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, Kids. I am quoting myself to reintroduce my point. This was just a musing...not trying to start a board war. Really. Really, really.

I wasn't "insulted" or pissed off about the remarks, I am simply confounded by the thinking that minimmizes something that the majority of society continues to embrace despite the minority of nay-sayers. I admit I don't like having people putting down a tradition, institution or covenant complete with all the bells and whistles (like sacred vows and promised) because we are all struggling so hard to recover our marriages and I don't like seeing something we are working at so diligently devalued and minimized.

To me saying that marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper that was once popular rhetoric back in the 70's along with "love the one you're with", (which unfortunately, was done to most of us to all our detriments) the "new" Coke or other rejected notions, I refrain from accusing the writer of sour grapes and instead give them a pass that they are misguided (?)

The blood is thicker than water thing is also a misnomer in many cases (i.e. stepparents, step kids etc) I PREFER my stepdad to my real dad and I love my stepkids as my own. But, that's just my family. So, expecting someone to shed his life, his family, his history with a family of several people for a relationship with an OC is not always feasible for lots of extenuating reasons. Thus, the cry of the OP over their confusion why their child is not #1 priority is usually based in emotion rather than practicality. This is just an observation and a generality and not meant to tweak or challenge anyone, but I am getting off topic. My original train of thought was my observation surrounding the comments made on the other board about the value of marriage (or lack thereof) and reducing it to something meaningless as just a piece of paper and my discomfort.

As usual, it is all about me. Hahaha.

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I haven't gone back there since earlier in the day. From what I read though, if you are able to read it objectively, there wasn't much to be up in arms about.

Ok, so there was the dramatic run down of, in 10 years, in 15 years, and so on... I think the point trying to be made was that no amount of time, no amount of no contact will ever change the fact that an OC has the same blood as the MM forever and ever. All right, true enough. When they refer to the MM as Father after all the years of no contact, that is plain silly. We all know what it takes to be a parent, and blood/DNA ain't it, not on it's own merit, anyway.

Can't take what they say personally over there. They would love nothing better, as I'm sure they're loving all the emotional responses on this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, this board gets off the principles of MB way too often and is NOT always focusing on the marriage. The C v. NC ongoing controversy is just one example of that. It gets old, fast, especially the times when it doesn't seem to be discussed with the M being the central theme. That's my gripe though.

Cat, look what you started...shame on you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Autumn...Mea culpa!

No kidding! All I wanted was to start a thread of discussion/debate on the perceived values of marriage. Ahhh, never mind. You and KT and others had some really great insight, though.

And Autumn, technically YOU started this last week by waking the sleeping dog, er, cat...hahahaha.

Sometimes I feel like all I have to say is 'shoehorn' and we are off and running...

And my post, Autumn, Catnip... maybe my post was seen as catty... but I can't apologize! I'm tired of "always" being mature and sweet.. so I can get walked all over. Can I be build my marriage and still be honest of how I may feel on some days? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I also think that the contact vs. no contact issue will always be important to many many new posters as well as ones that have been dealing with it for some time. I know it is on my brain all the time, even when I feel I have "made up my mind" on certain issues. It is a major part of this forum, as it is a huge slice of the marriage now and we cannot escape it or change it.

The other board won't be up in arms about anything over here! They all fight amongst themselves like mad-- its funny. A BS will come over.. put a nasty post or something they don't... the BS disappears and 20 of them are in a huge argument calling each other vile names....
I've never seen anything like it.

KT thanks for the post, it was awesome!
You are so nifty! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And Autumn, technically YOU started this last week by waking the sleeping dog, er, cat...hahahaha.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shoot, now that you know my methods, I shall have to come up with a different approach next time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

How surprising! Usually the ones who say that can't attain it, so therefore they have to devalue it.

I loved KT's message too. Wonderful!

The oc may have blood, but where is the bond? Families live together and grow together.


I have a teenager living in my home for the school year as her parents moved and she wanted to Graduate with her life-long friends. I have known her since she was 1 year old. I love her, always have. She is, especially now, like a daughter to me. We have not one drop of blood, but the love is there. We are very close. Her mother is like a sister to me and they feel like family. I have cousins 4 states away. I rarely think of them, send the cards, attend the weddings,etc. But I do not love them like I do this girl and her family. Love and acceptance is a choice on many occaisions.

What the ow have a hard time accepting is when the MM stays with his wife and children, and turns his back on them. They do not see that the wife and the children are the "blood" that is thickier then the "water" (ow/oc).

g123~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And my post, Autumn, Catnip... maybe my post was seen as catty... but I can't apologize! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who said your post was catty? Who asked you to apologize? I know I never did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I only know of one very catty person on this forum, and she will remain nameless! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm tired of "always" being mature and sweet.. so I can get walked all over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why I said we can't take the stuff they say (or anyone here for that matter), personally. They are not your OW. They are not walking all over you. Your OW cannot even walk all over you, unless you allow her to. You can be as mature or immature as you wish. You can be sweet, or not sweet. It's all your choice. No one can control how you choose to conduct yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I be build my marriage and still be honest of how I may feel on some days?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely!! In fact you can build your marriage and be honest about your feelings on ALL days.

I'm sure cat will respond soon...Just let me say though, that cat would be the first to defend your right to speak your mind on here and to be honest with your feelings, without fear of TOW scurrying over here to beat you over the head. I happen to agree with her. This is YOUR board, your safe haven. If they and their minions do try to clobber you, so what...clobber back, or don't. I'm merely suggesting you don't take it personally.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also think that the contact vs. no contact issue will always be important to many many new posters as well as ones that have been dealing with it for some time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C v. NC issues are important. I don't deny it's a central theme to this board. How can it NOT be when this is a P/C of infidelity forum?

Perhaps I should've made myself more clear on this. What I don't like, is when threads pop up that go on and on, to and fro, back and forth, people getting upset because their view doesn't seem to be agreed with or whatever.

Who cares if some stranger on the internet doesn't agree with your stance on C v. NC?

Who cares if someone in your personal circle doesn't agree with your stance?

It is a personal, private decision to be made between the M couple.

It also irks me when a thread that doesn't even begin w/ C v. NC ends up being ALL about it. I've been here a year this month, and I've seen that occur more times than I can count. I swear, the thread could start out with the topic: "Taking My H Out for Sushi Tonight", and still manage a way to turn into C v. NC. I've been a party to many of them, so it's not like I'm above it all.

Again, this is just my gripe, my personal opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other board won't be up in arms about anything over here!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't say they would be. I said, what they have posted is nothing to be up in arms about. As in, consider the source? I do contend though, that they probably enjoy it when they see their baiting was successful.

Take good care,

~ad

oops

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

C vs NC. It will always be a personal choice.

Blood being thicker than water. The Mm will always be the oc father. Not true. How many case out there of adopted children where they are loved just like a child born of the family? My H may not be the greatest father, but he does love the 2 kids I had with Xmm as his own.

by g123:KT thanks for the post, it was awesome!
You are so nifty!

Fifty, NIFTY united states and 13 orIgInaL COlOnIEs............

uh...wait a minute.....Did I just start singing that OUT LOUD? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Good thing I don't know the rest!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

love ya g123! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyone that thinks marriage is "just" a piece of paper should also understand that to reproduce is nothing more than a simple biological function. Even the most primitive of animals do it, it takes no special talent or commitment.
But to spend your life caring for someone, taking the good times with the bad, building a life together is what makes that "piece of paper" so important. It is a symbol of commitment.
The same way that raising a child, loving and nuturing that child is what makes a parent. It has nothing to do with biology. Its all about love and bonding.
To assume that someone will love a child simply because that child carries their DNA is simplistic and naive and probably a little wishful thinking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> Anyone that thinks marriage is "just" a piece of paper should also understand that to reproduce is nothing more than a simple biological function. Even the most primitive of animals do it, it takes no special talent or commitment.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hahaha...I laugh because I just had to chase a couple dogs out of my yard stuck in their "passion" on my front lawn. The look on their faces was so incredibly comical, I wish I would have had my camera handy instead of my arms loaded with grocery bags.

I bet he never calls her or visits the kids either.

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Autumn... I'm sorry.... I really just mentioned you cause your post and catnips were much more elaborate and serious than mine-- I was teasing *myself* about being catty.... cause I was being fecetious, which I usually am not. I try to debate, rebut and stick to trying to be fair and open and pretty accepting of everyone AND THEIR RIGHT TO AN OPINION, as I am in the real world!

I, however, am not granted the right to *any* opinion, anywhere! Do you believe that since I posted here earlier, I was stalked via pm at the opposing board about it?? Cause I mentioned that *they* fight and namecall-- which that board is famous for!!This is the second time someone there has called me out at another board-- I'M SCARED--there are laws against that! EEW that is so weird. I was posting there regarding the OC/BC issues and was very open with them there and honest -- just as here-- but no more. I don't need to be stalked its creepy. Can you imagine messaging everyone from every board about what they say?? W-O-W

Its JUST LIKE YOU SAID....

WHO CARES WHO POSTS WHERE AND ABOUT WHAT AND IF IT IS DEAD OFF FROM WHAT YOU THINK??? I personally don't care - if I don't like it I can post my side of it, or not read at all- why is that so odd? THATS WHY WE ARE ON THESE BOARDS TO SAY WHAT WE FEEL-- WHEN WE OTHERWISE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE OPEN WITH OTHERS IN OUR REAL LIVES!!!! Geesh... I welcome others' opinions and rebuttals, it gives me the opportunity to dig deep within myself to challenge certain things, thus helping me sort out my own feelings- know what I mean???

Its amazing... a BS can't speak the truth or have an opinion over there cause the posters must own it-- and *now* I can't talk about anything I feel like over here, cause they "own" this board along with the right to KNOW MY HANDLE NAMES ON ALL BOARDS.... umm.. and the right to control what I say and where I say it?

Man, that stinks! LOL! I am a ROBOT.. I COME IN PEEEACE.....

Others lurk here and post from other boards and also have *much* different attitudes and/or handles on other boards-- I thought everyone posted w/handles and not their real names for a reason????

I'm off topic of course.. but today was so strange to me... WHO on earth chases people from board to board? WOW.

Well said KT, Jtigger and Catnip.

Twiisty
(who barely makes it to the boards anymore...as she isn't exactly a fresh breath of spring! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Twiisty...Where have you been and what have you been doing? I've lost touch with so many people since my hiatus. I bet you are spending most of your time chasing the baby around. I'm glad to see you back and lurking.

Catnip... You kill me! I bet he doesn't visit the kids either! Very good point. Hit the nail on the head with that one my dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />