in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. i believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. i am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

pops,
I don't think that ftb has it confused with single parenthood...
I think what she is trying to ask is, WHY is it acceptable for a woman to decide she wants to give up her child, for whatever reason, and no longer have contact or rights to that child?
Yet, when a man makes that same type of decision, he is abandoning his child?
Should he want to give up his child, for whatever reason, it is unacceptable in today's society.

A woman can leave her child on the steps of a church/clinic... "Oh, she left the child in a place where someone could take that child and make sure that s/he was taken care of..." There are states that will not attempt to find her because she left the child at an "acceptable drop-off place."
Yet, should a woman leave her child in a bathroom at say a McDonald's... "ABANDONMENT... FIND HER!"

Either case, is abandonment in my book.

Yet, if a woman makes the choice to sign away her rights.... give the child over for adoption.... Then she has given someone else a wonderous gift that can never be matched.

BUT, should a man decide he wants to sign away his rights to a child that he fathered.. in today's society he is branded with today's latest Scarlet Letter... Abandonment...

In essence, he is making the same choice that the woman who gives up her child for adoption.
Then why should he be forced to pay child support? If the woman gives the child up for adoption, she is not required to pay child support. Those people that adopt the child take FULL responsibility for the child... EVEN if its a SINGLE PERSON adopting a child. They don't get Child support from the bio-mothers..
They chose to raise the child and the person or persons that choose not to raise the child will not be forced to pay child support.

So, essentially, WHY should ANYONE that chooses not to raise a child be forced to pay child support?

I understand why there is Child Support.. really I do. I also see that the system is completely biased against men. I have a different view of child support, but this is about abandonment not child support...

I know I only stirred the muddy waters... Sorry I can't make it more clear.

Stacia

i understand what she is asking.

a woman single, divorced, ow, whatever can't give her child up for adoption legally without the fathers consent. she may say she has no idea who the father is and then proceed under that lie. BUT if the bio dad ever gets wind of it he can sue and most likely win custody of the child.

the same woman can also sign away her rights to the child, same as a man. AND if the father knows of this and is not willing to place the child for adoption (he wants custody) then that woman will most likely end up paying cs, same as a man.

if the same woman decides to place child for adoption and the father also says adopt then they both have given a tremendous gift. but legally it takes them BOTH to sign away their rights for adoption.

the problem arises in the fact that for most women it is extremely hard to give up a child they have carried for 9 months. so now you are faced with 2 people with opposite opinions of what they want to do about this child. a father who because of the situation (doesn't matter what) wants nothing to do with the child and a mother who can't give her child up.

would it be fair if a woman wanted to give up her rights to the baby and the man wanted to raise the child. And let's say the woman is an attorney and the man is a carpenter. would the man in this case not be entitled to cs? sure he would. so now the woman says "hey i don't want any part of that kids". should she be able to just walk away? no.

or stacia in your own situation what if ow says she wants nothing more to do with precious? do you and your h not seek cs from her? now i know that allowing her the option to walk and keeping her out of your life is there but what if you 2 needed the money? and i am not talking here about the situation where the custodial parent seeks cs out of revenge.

you see in either case one parent doesn't want to raise the child but will have to be finacialy responsible because the 2 people couldn't come to one agreement. true it doesn't often happen where the man raises the child but i have to believe the law would work the same either way.

she is in a sense asking how much that basket of apples weighs and she has a basket of oranges on the scale.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

pops,
My husband is a carpenter by trade (contractor now)

Ow is wealthy. Period.

Husband wanted no part of a pregnancy and ow was willing to bank that I WOULD LEAVE HUSBAND for her pregnancy. Didn't happen as 30 years speaks for its self....Ow is/was still married in an odd sense.

We still pay cs AND health insurance unwillinly. We would sign off in a minute if ow would let us but there is a REVENGE factor....

Still pisses us both off but living well is a beter revenge as we overcame it all. (For the most part) We are lucky enough to still vacation and purchase big ticket items in spite of cs/health ins... And for the record oc is named in our will and left zero.... heck, he won't be around when the will is read but our son and daughter-in-law and granddaughter will.....And it's all theirs.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No easy answer but if law makers and judges would actually look at each case then the laws would change by circumstance....

No contact and not wanted by my H but the law says pay pay pay...so we do...her H is daddy...what the heck is my husband doing paying for both their mistake? Why doesn't she get her fat hump out to work and pay too? We weren't allowed to mention her trust fund! We did mention zero to oc in our wills... Paybacks are a...well...you know...

My saying about it all now is "Whatever!!!" H's is "I'd like to choke that lying bytch....yeah right the "pill" she went off at the end to trap me because I couldn't deal another minute with her bull, gifts, calls, and bytching" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Debi

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. I believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. I am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend?


I would go pops, After all I love meeting new people and frankly no matter which side of the coin your on, we are all just people.

by the way.. a different thought on the subject. Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that. The system doesnt work for every one and it isnt just women who are abusing the system. Our system is screwed up just a fact.

gem,,,,,,,,,,, i know each case has its own specifics that is why i said
...................i am not talking here about the situation where the custodial parent seeks cs out of revenge...........................

for the record i agree that our system needs to be reworked.

also i agree that who is in your will is your own business.

however i think that if you left the oc out as a revenge factor that is rediculous. who are you exacting revenge on oc or ow? AND I AM NOT SAYING YOU NEED TO PUT OC IN YOUR WILL IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

just asking if you fell your reasoning is healthy for you. to not include oc because ypou and h have never had a relationship with him/her or even that you think your son's family deserves it because of whatever. doesn't matter. but for the revenge is sweet notion. that tells me that you are carrying some animosity (sp?) with you that is not healthy.

mo5,,,,,,,,, i know that fh would attend also. i really like putting faces to the names and voices of people. and i have been accussed of having the gift of gab on more then one occassion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

my 22 yol son left for n.y vacation yesterday. he is looking forward to meeting people he has only talked to on the phone with business for the first time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB] Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing.

=^^= THAT is GROSSLY unfair...unfair to the child, unfair to you and your family. If you have been successful at rebuilding your marriage and your child is safe, secure, happy and thriving, for any XMM to waltz in after several years at the eleventh hour and make a claim or disrupt your child's or life in any way is incredible selfish and self-serving. Morally, he has NO RIGHT to do this and shame on him. And, more importantly, shame on the state's legal policies that permit such disharmony and disruption in all of your lives.

I think if it were me, in fact I am positive if it were me, I would be writing reams and reams of letters to your state lawmakers and officials regarding this dilemma, citing that it is not in the child's best interest to be forced to change his/her name after years of knowing just one name and it isn't right for this person to have the power to disrupt your marriage and your family after years of getting a pass on CS and having the benefit of accessible and workable visitation with a more than reasonable person!

YOU, my dear, have been way too easy on XOM and this is one case where the reverse situation is just as bad as what most of the people here endure. You have been reasonable beyond expectation, working very hard to accomodate everyone for your child's sake, and if any of us HAVE to be in a situation like this, we all wish it were with someone like you.

I think it's appalling that any XMM can come out of the woodwork making demands years after the fact. I think it is OK for him to make a "request", but if it is vetoed, he should just say OK and back off and let everyone get on with their lives.

Cat =^^=

You can count this ws in too, I'd show up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mo5:
by the way.. a different thought on the subject. Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that. The system doesnt work for every one and it isnt just women who are abusing the system. Our system is screwed up just a fact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My worst nightmare, Mo5!!!!!

No amount of money in the world is worth having him come back to be "daddy".

Personally, I would urge any woman who has a child as a result of an affair, and decides to keep the baby...to do her very best to raise the child on her own, without CS, if at all possible. Move on, get as far away from the OM whether he's S or M. It would be better to raise the baby in a single parent home than trying to force contact with someone who simply doesn't want it. If you can go NO CS, all the better, because that pretty much guarantees NC, and no drama for ANY of the parties affected by the A.

This is very much my personal opinion, and I guess, easy for me to say, but honestly I believe in this.

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

The question is a valid one. WHY is it acceptable for women and not men?
That has yet to be answered.

As for our case,
OW did give a child up for adoption. The father caught wind of it… AFTER the paperwork was filed. He chose to raise the child. OW gave birth and the father took the child straight away. OW has never seen him. She gave the child up for adoption. Her rights ended.
Her 2nd child was beaten with a chain link dog leash. She failed to protect him from her exBF. The child was removed from her custody. She pays no CS for him, either.
As far as Lil Bit, if OW would give up her rights then we would accept that without one thought. We currently have Primary Custody… she is supposed to be responsible for Child Support, yet she does not pay anything. We are currently shouldering the full responsibility for the costs of raising a child. She is enjoying “part-time parenthood.”
Does anyone look down on her for not paying CS on any of her children? Probably not… WHY? Probably because it was the 1st father’s CHOICE not to press for CS and it was her mother’s CHOICE not to press for CS.
It is our CHOICE to press for CS… We are in the process of filing for Lil Bit’s CS.

The point I am trying to make is this.. CHOICE.

Scenario1:
Woman chose not to keep baby. Father chose to keep baby.

Scenario2:
Woman chose not to keep baby. Father chose not to keep baby.

Scenario3:
Woman chose to keep baby. Father chose not to keep baby.


Choice. Each of the Scenarios is about Choice. Each person has a choice.
In the first and third Scenarios, ONE person makes a choice not to be involved with the child. WHAT is so different? WHY is it that the third scenario is the one that society looks down on?
First Scenario: What a WONDERFUL FATHER!
Second Scenario: What a wonderful gift to give someone!
Third Scenario: What a JERK!


All of us are given choices. The woman has the ultimate choice. The man is left to make his choice after she has made hers. SOME men are able to make their choice before the woman makes hers… but HIS is the one that is called into question more often than not. FACT.

True, there is an innate sense of love in mothers. But also TRUE, that there can be the same innate sense of love in fathers.
And in one way of looking at things…
All people are cut out to be parents; some just aren’t sewed up right.
A woman is a woman… but that doesn’t necessarily mean she will want to be a mother.
A man is a man… but that doesn’t necessarily mean he will want to be a father.
Just because two people are “built” to have children doesn’t mean they have to have children.

Just trying to make some sense of WHY it is viewed as unacceptable for a man to make the choice not to be involved.

My question is not about LEGAL issues. It is about society views.

pops,
My H was the one to have a new will drawn up and made sure after all the cs was paid FORCEFULLY that ow/oc were owed nothing more.

Like I said, oc will not be around to see the will read. We didn't leave oc a dollar, we simply said he gets nothing more after 18 years of payment.

His bio dad never wanted him. Ow lied about the birth control she was using because as she told me, "he always wanted more children" so she took it upon herself to give him another even though he said he didn't want to have chilren with her, sort of a "condition" of the affair.

For whatever reason oc is here and H said they are already taking too much from us... Oc will be in her and her H's wills I'm sure...Why would oc expect something from a stranger? I wouldn't. Even if the stranger was biologically related but I never knew him/her.

So you can call leaving oc out of our will "revenge", we see it as protection in case of my H's death and ow still wants more for oc... Perhaps you see it as revenge because of Grace. You can see another side. Who's to say you are wrong or right? Not me. We just do what we do as humans to survive a horrendous nightmare and hope we can just continue on in peace.

We both have had discussions about oc, and H feels nothing for oc. Neither do I. No hate. No love either. We do not even know oc. We just hope they go on their merry way and leave us alone.

In a perfect world huh pops? In a perfect world....

Debi

ps....Don't think I'd want to come to the gathering of BS,WS,OP's...it would be a political nightmare with different opinions flying around like snowflakes in a blizzard. All of our stories differ but the aftershock is pretty much set in stone for each of those titles. Each feels a different hurt and it will never come to be a union of the souls type meeting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong> in one of the earlier posts you were talking about who would attend a get together. i believe it was between the bw's and the ow's. i am curious that if such a gathering would occur exactly how many ws's would attend? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pops, I think that it was me saying that if we were get everyone together (BW's and OW's) into a big room, a lot more of us would get along than you'd think. This was about the back and forth stuff from TOW. That's all.

There have been some good posts on this thread but I agree with Stacia Lee...

***The question is a valid one. WHY is it acceptable for women and not men?
That has yet to be answered***

I really want to hear from the OW that have voiced the abandonment issue so loudly. I promise there will be no flaming (RIGHT EVERYONE???!! ) But I really want to understand their thought process on this issue.

Gem~

What if we promised not to talk about "it", and all just got drunk, ate a lot of good food, talked about a less controversial and painful topic, like Bush v. Kerry and played bunko, or something? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The only "case" for lack of a better word that I can comment on is my own. This is the only one that I know all the facts on. I don't know enough about anyone elses to do so. xMM was around for the first year. BEFORE I had the baby, I gave him the opportunity to walk away without a second glance backwards. HE chose not to do that. I chose to say after my son's first birthday - either see him consistently and on the up and up or don't see him at all. He hasn't made an effort since. That was over 7 years ago. Do I consider that abandonment? Yes. Had he walked away when I gave him the chance when I was pregnant, would I still consider that abandonment? Probably not. He wouldn't have gotten to know this child. He wouldn't have been called "Da-Da". He wouldn't KNOW what he was missing. Now he does. BUT.... I'm also WAY past the A, the feelings, and all that and able to look at things from taking a step back. I can't make any generalizations about any other situations because I'm not involved in "their" situation.

~Aut~,
Ok then I'm in!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But Bush and Kerry can get me just as riled up....perhaps we can just eat and drink? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
love
Debi

Ok, eating and drinking it is!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Only one of the candidates gets me all riled up, the other I adore!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry JTigger, continue on....

I'll have a big ole' Texas beef burger with mustard, mayo and lettuce...NO KETCHUP. Hahahaha.

Meow.

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

it's been a while since i posted, but figured i'd add my two cents.

in the case of my oc, om has nothing to do with him. nothing. do i think this is abandonment? heck no! it's a blessing!! one that i'm so thankful for - especially after reading a thread like this.

but i do realize this is different than the single ow, married om situation...
1) i'm married so liam has a dad (an AWESOME one, i might add!)
2) my om is/was not fighting me on this
3) it was my decesion to end contact with om. so although it wasn't his "choice", he did respect my decision.

some may say that my om has the right to be in liam's life, and they'd be right. in canada, there's no statute of limitations on parental rights. meaning that om could fight me for it AT ANY TIME now or years from now. i really pray that won't happen.

back to the question, om didn't abandon the oc in this case - unless you want to say he "abandoned" him to a wonderful life, with two adoring parents who love him more than anything.

~amy

JT: I told you I'd get back to you. I know it's been a few days...sorry. The answer your now looking for is different than before. I'll try and answer both though and hopefully I can get through this without interputions.

As far as adoption, It's the greatest gift to give someone it really is. Pops said it best though about what woman go through. Also I think if a woman is giving up for the "right" reasons then she is not taking the easy road out. Although use me in this example. I'm 41. I'm not rich but I'm not poor. I already have two kids. I have a life. I do support myself. I am mentally able to raise kids. I think in my case, if I were to give my daughter up for adoption it would of purely been the easy road out. I am having to make ajustments in my life and my twins life, but they won't be for ever. I feel if I would of chosen to adopt my daughter out I would be taking the easy road out. Every circumstance is different. If I was very poor and did not have a career already and a life in place or very young then I would be doing the right thing. It's probaly a difference of opinions here as we are on two different sides of the coins. I do feel that xmm owes cs to his daughter. He does not owe me a thing. The cs is not for me, it's for her. Just as I owe her support too. In our case, we never talked about not wanting kids. It was never something that neither one of us thought about as my twins were not concieved in a bedroom. He was offered to use condoms and we together did not use birth control. He asked me months before I ever got pregnant that if I were to ever get pregnant would I have an abortion or adopt the child out. I flat out told him NO NO NO at that point. There was no "well let me think about it", or "what would you want me to do?". He knew I'd keep whatever child I had if I were to get pregnant. So as far as him not wanting her, okay so he does not want her. He also knew too. We never talked about what if I get pregnant he would not be in the child's life. He owes HER cs. NOT ME. I'm not trying to flame here, but it's really his lost not being in her life. It's not mine and it's only her's to a point. After his true colors came out, why would I want him around her? She has overcome so many obsticles through pregnancy and there is a reason she is here. I don't want cs for revenge, or any other reason then it's owed to her. Yes I feel he has abondand her. I also feel that I would of if I would of given her up too under the circumstances.