Joshmom,
If it makes you feel any better: DIL's dad had a live-in girlfriend since before our granddaughter was born. He babysits 2 days a week and our granddaughter called his girlfriend "mama girlfriends name." They broke up before the holidays and my granddaughter never mentioned "ma ma girlfriend" again. She will be 2 this month. She doesn't remember her.

I guess I am trying to say that Josh will not remember MM. Only you are the one right now who is dissappointed because you remember.

Make sense?

Also my comments on how my husband and I feel about oc is in no way meant for others to think it is set in stone others think that way.
Each situation has it's own circumstances. This is just ours.

How he also wishes he could take back the afternoon she asked "Don't you trust me?" when he didn't have a raincoat for protection....she adamently said "You know I'm on the pill because my H and I don't want more kids....3 is enough!" "C'mon sweetheart, one last time". The rest is history! BTW H was there to drop off a check to her Mother for a home they built and sold for profit together and Mom wasn't home. H had already ended A...she lied saying her Mom was home but in the bathroom.....should have mailed that check...don'tcha think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

love
Debi

NTMO~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes I feel he has abondand her. I also feel that I would of if I would of given her up too under the circumstances.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't get that. He will be paying CS, thus meeting her physical needs, how is that abandonment?

He's not planning to be daddy for a few years, or even a few months, and then planning to disappear,is he?

You said yourself you don't care if he has contact or not, yet when he chooses not to, it's abandonment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If I were you, I'd be grateful for the CS and be glad that someone who doesn't want to be daddy to my child will not have any contact. I'm afraid if you continue to think of his decision for NC as abandonment, it will rub off on your child. Is that the legacy you want to create for her?

For the record, if you had given her up for adoption, I would not consider it abandonment either. Just because someone is in a good position to be a parent, yet still chooses adoption, does not make them an abandoner, (is that a word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

I stick by what I said earlier, the decision to give a baby up for adoption based on either "good" reasons or "bad" reasons does not matter. Either way, to give a baby up for adoption upon birth, is not abandonment.

A man, no matter his past promises, his reasoning, (whether the OW, or anyone for that matter considers them valid, good, or bad), is not an abandoner either. He chose NC, end of story.

This is JMO, no more, no less.

Catnip~
For a minute there, I thought you were on Atkins, but then, duhhhhhh, the light went on! Right there with you kiddo, only you might have to skip the mustard too. Doesn't that co. make it, as well?

needtomoveon,
I understand where you are coming from but I'm still reading that you feel mm abandoned his child because he did not capitulate to your wishes.
You say he knew there was a chance you could become pregnant but had sex anyway. I'm sure that 99.9% of women that have given children up for adoption knew that when they had sex there was a chance they could get pregnant but they had sex anyway. Does that mean they abandoned their child if they put it up for adoption? I don't think we should say that if a man consents to sex he consents to parenthood unless we are going to hold women to that standard too.
As far as the reasons that do or do not make it acceptable to put a child up for adoption I think they are completely subjective. What is is good reason to me may not be a good reason to you and vice versa. Does that make my reasons any less valid ? Does it make your any less valid ? I know for a fact my bio mother gave me up for adoption so she could finish med school. Was that wrong ? She probably could have kept me and finished school but I'm sure it would have been very difficult.
I think what we all need to learn here is that if a man walks away from an unwanted pregnancy it is not abandonment, it is a choice. Just like the choice we women make when we decide the outcome of a pregnancy. Biology gives men no other alternative.
I still think it is unrealistic to say to man... sorry, I know you didn't want a child but here we are and now I expect you to love it and co-parent it with me. Just like I think it is unreasonable to tell a women you got pregnant, now you have to have this child and raise even if you do not want to be a parent right now.
That is what choice is all about. I just think both sexes should be on the same playing field.
Now with that being said, I do think if a man has bonded with a child and then decides it gets too complicated and walks away that IS abandonment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> Joshmom,
If it makes you feel any better: DIL's dad had a live-in girlfriend since before our granddaughter was born. He babysits 2 days a week and our granddaughter called his girlfriend "mama girlfriends name." They broke up before the holidays and my granddaughter never mentioned "ma ma girlfriend" again. She will be 2 this month. She doesn't remember her.

I guess I am trying to say that Josh will not remember MM. Only you are the one right now who is dissappointed because you remember.

Make sense?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Makes absolute sense.. And I KNOW that Josh won't remember MM. He asks about him, as any child without a father around is bound to do. I'm THANKFUL that xMM walked away when he did, if he did it when Josh was older and could understand what was going on, hell would have had no fury like a mama bear who's baby has been hurt. And I'm not disappointed any more - again, I'm thankful. I've been able to move 1,000 miles away, make a better life for both of us and not have to worry about any ramifications. But, if his father had been in his life, I never would have moved. I've had a couple of serious bf's in the past 6 years, and Josh remembers one of them - barely. And not fondly. He was an alcoholic and pretty nasty when he needed a drink. Hence the EXbf. He got nasty to Josh ONCE. That was the first and last time - that opened my eyes to a lot about him, all of it not good.

Well Joshmom, glad you got rid of a potential abuser for both your sakes!

It must be hard to find words to say to Josh when there is no father figure around. I have no answers.

Now on MM maybe leaving when Josh was 6? I see your anger rising, but there is still nothing one person can do to make another pay attention and want to be a parent.

~Aut~ I get an upset stomach with big cheeseburgers especially ones from Texas, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> so can we have sushi or something like appetizers galore? (Sorry Catnip, we'll still have your burger ready!) And lots of different wines to drink....

Aut and Jtigger I love the reasoning behind your explainations... it is how I have felt for years but never had a chance to write it all down. Equal rights my (fill in with any totally raunchy word)! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
love
Debi

I'll go for sushi!
hugs
twiisty
(and yes Gem, speaking as someone who is dealing with inequality in regards to the law) "equal rights my (_________enter expletitive!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

mof5 wrote:Why is om able to say I want nothing to do with this and I will not be able to be in this childs life. So he walks away! But by law he has 4 years to come back and change your entire life and that of your child! Is it fair since he walked away and you walked away, No child support, no nothing. Then BAM I want to be daddy? Guss what in this state he can do that.
**********
**********
Why? for the same reason a woman can ask for nothing for 4 (or however many) years and then disrupt the man's life and family & come knocking on the door for CS. For the same reason that there is no statue of limitations (in some states) to file for CS.

Don't worry, the 'disruption' goes both ways. Is it fair for either one? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

It would be nice if sperm donors could CHOOSE to sign away thier rights from the very beginning---then there would be no confusion like that. NO rights means no rights and no obligations either.

(my)OW said she wanted NOTHING, nothing means nothing. Did H have thoughts of OC, yes but respected OW wishes and felt it was best for all involved since he wanted to stay married to me and keep his family.

OW had another child w/ no daddy and guess what? Well into recovery, moving on w/ OUR lives and expecting baby #3BAMyou're getting sued for CS!!! Talk about disruption of your life?

It sucks on BOTH sides! No one wants their lives disrupted so why can't the court system allow more choice? We tax payers are all paying anyway. We still have to pay (through taxes) for children and adults on welfare, whether your paying your CS or not. You don't get some credit voucher for your taxes if you're paying CS, heck you can't even claim that child as your dependant.

The whole thing just sucks! ALL around. If a parent does not want to be involved then I think they should be allowed to terminate thier rights completely. Then some man can't walk back in, all of sudden disrupting a child's life and some woman can't come walking back in, all of a sudden disrupting the om life.

I don't think it is abandonement @ all, unless like someone else said, there is a relationship established and then the parent just disappears.

JMO

gem........... this is what i was refering to.
said by you........................ Paybacks are a...well...you know...............

i could care less if oc is in or out or mentioned or not mentioned in your or anyones will. that is not what i was talking about. i was talking about the reasons for which ever action one takes. the morals behind the action. yes i know that i can't control what anyone else does. and "in the perfect world" scenerio stuff. but if i was to help one person let go of their anger for one minute it would be worth all the time spent showing my "SOFT" heart.

all i meant was that for YOU carrying the thought of revenge (my word as you said payback) doesn't seem healthy. especially considering all the years it would have to be carried.

to me it doesn't even matter the reason. i was making a statement for you to consider concerning your own health and peace of mind.

now please for you and all others who seem to think that my world revolves around grace. i know that i see things different from many but that has nothing to do with grace. i have many of the same feelings, thoughts, questions and triggers that people like ktbunch have when it comes to their oc's. if you have noticed most of my references to my experiences are from ex gf and #1s. the advice i offer to those who are dealing and struggling with c vs nc comes from my similar (no 2 are the same) expeiences while wearing their shoes from 1974 to now.

my soft spot for kids has come from over twenty three years of putting in 15 - 20 hours a week coaching kids. i have seen all types of parents and parental role models that kids deal with. fh was in the child care business for 15 - 20 years also. so not only did i deal with my kids and the kids i coached i would come home from work and help raise her daycare kids. believe me i have seen some wierd adults and heard about every strange philosophy you can imagine on child raising.

and yes having grace here day in and day out has made it easier to bond with her. no question about it. but if it were not for the person i was before she came to be either fh and her or i would be someplace else right now.

i want everyone to know that should this poor sole ever hit a lotto i am sending you all a pair of tickets for this get together deal. deal?

but i have to let you know please don't hold your breath. my luck with stuff like that is zero. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

kt

my point exactly None of it is fair for every one. never will be . We just all take what we have and make the best of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thats what you can do.

cat nip

thanks for the support, Gee you see more riled up than I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I dont think were in that bad of shape yet! I just wanted those who think it only goes against them, that they it isnt always that way. the system needs changed in many ways, It isnt perfect so we have to make the best of what we are handed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by autumnday:
[QB]
Catnip~
For a minute there, I thought you were on Atkins, but then, duhhhhhh, the light went on! Right there with you kiddo, only you might have to skip the mustard too. Doesn't that co. make it, as well?

Hahahaha....you really cracked me up. That was funny. You're right! I forgot about that. Guess I'll have to switch to Grey Poupon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtigger:
[QB]
I still think it is unrealistic to say to man... sorry, I know you didn't want a child but here we are and now I expect you to love it and co-parent it with me. Just like I think it is unreasonable to tell a women you got pregnant, now you have to have this child and raise even if you do not want to be a parent right now.
That is what choice is all about. I just think both sexes should be on the same playing field.
Now with that being said, I do think if a man has bonded with a child and then decides it gets too complicated and walks away that IS abandonment.

=^^= JTigger...God. You're good. What an excellent and extremely logical explanation. It's hard to believe that anyone could even remotely argue with your points. However, we know that some people just can't face their own responsiblity for what they have done to contribute to their child's situation and need a scape goat. Unfortunately, emotialism and hysteria will always trump logic on these boards until maturity and acceptance eventually come to everyone...in time.

Cat =^^=

Hi,
Well my H was adopted and have I have two cousins that thay were adopted. And my h said it was the best thing that ever happened for him. His parents already had 6 other kids and were dirt poor and could not provide for him.

Also, my uncle got married to a woman, who at the time his son was two years old when they might. For whatever reason, his bio-dad was not not involved with him. And my uncle stepped in and adopted him. The woman he married already had two kids from a previous marriage and then had another after she divorced her first husband. The father did not want anything to do with him and a couple of years later she meet my uncle and married him. They got a divorce 5 years later and my uncle has full custody of his son. He said it does not matter if he is not biogical his. He is his son. If the the bio-dad would have stepped in then he would not have his son today.

Also, my other uncle gave up a son that he deeply loved. He tried to see his son to he had the police come to the house but just kept te1l1ng the lady not to do it again. Sh would refuse him to see his son and he would call the cops but they would not do anything. He kept going back to court but after over $100,000 he could not fight no longer. Granted this was 18 years ago and things have changed. This lady married and her husband adopted him. He said when he comes looking for him he will tell him the truth. He will be 18 soon.

Dawn

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] i want everyone to know that should this poor sole ever hit a lotto i am sending you all a pair of tickets for this get together deal. deal?

=^^= Deal! Wouldn't that be fun? I would just love it if we could all have our own little reunion. Everyone welcome, too, right?

As far as luck, my cousin always said if she didn't have bad luck, she'd have no luck at all. I suppose on these boards that holds true for a lot of us. But, ya never know....sometimes ya just never know. When you say a "pair" of tickets, I take it to mean we bring spouse? Bipolar will come if it's in California.

Oh, and Pops...that soft heart of yours is part of your charm...don't ever change. We need the ying and yang of it all. It's why we love you. We'll just issue you a combat helmet for the next time (and there will be a next time ...you can rely on that like the sun sets in the west) there's a thread war.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

pops~ You gotta do what my H does...everytime he changes the baby's diaper, he says, "Is daddy gonna get lucky this time???...Oh yeah baby, no poopies, I think I'll have to buy a lottery ticket today!!"

KtB~ With all due respect, it sounds like your ow came after you for CS, with no intention of disrupting, except for the money. Was not the decision for C yours and H's? Couldn't all the conflict and disruption been avoided if you would've just paid CS and remained NC?

JTigger~ Extremely well put!!!

Sorry ladies, just thinking of sushi makes my stomach hurt. I'll stick with the appetizers. Cat, we could always do Texas chili, no "off limit" condiments involved in that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

~ad

Morning pops,
Really it isn't revenge...honestly I say "whatever" meaning no revenge is in me now, maybe at first, but not now.

The will thing is simply because paying for all the years we will have to is enough dough to pay for an unwanted pregnancy. We will never know oc and oc will be a stranger and who leaves anything to a stranger? See? I don't know how else to explain it.

I guess we look at it like oc IS adopted by ow's H and that will be the family oc will know. I don't think people leave their adopted out children anything in their wills... Understand now?

Thanks for worrying about my health pops. I'm doing rather well these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's so hard to read how the written word is said around here, the sound of the words are the way they are taken, you know? Mine are said without a tone of revenge here.

Twiisty nice to know you'll be enjoying the sushi with me! Now that Texas chili sounds yummy~~~~~

Debi

***Unfortunately, emotialism and hysteria will always trump logic***

Thats the biggest problem when you try to get people to rationally explain their position on this point. Their emotions get in the way and they can not argue the point logically.
And by the way....
Sushi sounds excellent to me !!

<small>[ April 03, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

I think that what we've gone through in our lives has a lot to do with how we feel about things like this. I was engaged to a man years ago that had a son whom he never saw or paid cs for. When he told this story, I insisted that he start paying cs and at least start making some sort of effort to contact this boy. It was not if he could not afford cs, he made very good money. He was just dead beat. I told him I could not marry someone who did that cause he may do it to our own kids too. We never married as he cheated on me and I left, but he did start having a relationship with his son. He has passed away and at least I know he got to know his son before he died. So I guess it's just the way I feel. As far as one of you guys asking me about just take the cs and be done with it seeing I don't care if he sees her or not. I'm working on that. I've accepted the fact he won't be in her life. For me it will be easier. As far as cs.....well I can't even get him to take the dna test, let alone pay cs. My attorney has filed paperwork and he will be served soon. He asked me to take a dna test through amino as soon as possible. I made two appointments and he did a no show to both. For my daughter it would be in her best interest, but as it's been said so many times....in a perfect world.....this is not a perfect world. She will be okay though without him in her life. I have plenty of friends and family who love her and cherish her. As a mother though I just can't help but to feel sorry for her for this. Also, someone mentioned about my feelings going off on her over this. That won't happen. I can feel the way I feel over this, but hide it. As much as he has done and hurt me, it would do her no good to know any of it. There may come a day when she is much much older that he may change his mind or she may go looking for her and it's not up to me to put thoughts into her head. My twins father (although around) does not put them first nor does he think of them as he should. I don't put him down to them or discourage them at all. That is there daddy and will always be. The older they get they'll see and hopefully by then he will realize how important his time with them is and do some changes with that. So I guess I've already learned with my twins what NOT to do or say. I don't know how I will handle it then, but I've got years before I've got to deal with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by autumnday:
<strong> KtB~ With all due respect, it sounds like your ow came after you for CS, with no intention of disrupting, except for the money. Was not the decision for C yours and H's? Couldn't all the conflict and disruption been avoided if you would've just paid CS and remained NC?

~ad </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Paying over $500 a month for 1 OC while the rest of us and our family are expected to now live off of $1500 a month is quite a disruption don't you think?(hmmmm...lets think.... $500 for 1 OC and $1500 for 2 adults and 3 BC????? oh no that's rith there were ONLY 2 BC since #3 was not going to be born until AFTER CS hearing!)

We thought since OW originally said she wanted 'nothing' and now was asking for "something" that OW was now inviting us and wanted us in OC life. We naively thought, "how can you be there financially for OC and not there in every other way?" We stupidly thought, "since OW is contacting us, why wouldn't we be involved?"

We thought we were doing the "right thing". I guess the 'right thing' is dependant on what OW wants!!!!!!!!!

Yes, if we had known that that OW ONLY wanted $$$$ and not for OC to have a "dad", while a little double standard'd, we might have left it that way instead. OW continuously gave mixed messages.

CS is still a disruption and when you are low income to begin w/ it is a MAJOR disruption!

But things are different now, CS is lower and visitation is more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

gem,,,,,,, i get it. the reason i responded on this topic to you is that although i had many reasons for om paying fh cs originally one of them was for the "revenge" factor. i was never the same old me until i let go of that part.

so i know how holding on to that can eat at ones inner self.


kt,,,,,,,,,, i think that you are still looking at your situation in the wrong light. i feel that you see the ow as being in control.

it is about attitude. you need to take the controling attitude. sure she may do things that don't meet with you and h's approval. but being able to control which school (i know this is important to you) or when oc visits is not what i am talking about. i had all those thing and more with exgf.

what i am talking about is taking the positive attitude that you and h are in oc's life to stay (if that is what you decide with h) and that no matter what she does, you will always be there. don't let the small stuff get to you and don't let her control your emotions, anger, disgust, telling her off. if that happens she is manipulating you and she is in control.

what is important is the relationship between your family and oc. everything else is small stuff. just keep showing oc that you all love her(?). if she says that ow said this or that just let it go and tell her that everybody makes mostakes usually because they don't understand everything.

let it role off your back like water off a duck. believe me i know it's hard. but you will win the war not the battle.

in my case exgf was always hiding #1s. she was continually 1 -2 hours late for my scheduled and agreed upon pick up times. but i never exploded at her and never let #1s see that i was upset with his mom. that would have only pushed him closer to her which would have distanced him from me.

here's an example; did you ever try and tell a teenage daughter that the guy she likes is no good. there is no way on this green earth you can make her see what you are saying and the harder you push the more she feels she likes him.

i hope all works out for you and h.