</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and if so, notify the other possible father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the H himself doesn't want the other possible father to know? Do you think it would still be unfair to the om?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by autumnday:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and if so, notify the other possible father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the H himself doesn't want the other possible father to know? Do you think it would still be unfair to the om? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. To be blunt, the H is not the father of the child. An OM may or may not want to be a part of the childs life. But, I think he is at least owed the opportunity to be a part of his childs life. To not even tell him about it is unfair.

What if it was your H? From what I have read, he is a good, upstanding man. What if he had strayed and gotten an OW pregnant? Would you say he does not deserve a chance to help raise his child?
Michael

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Michael,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An OM may or may not want to be a part of the childs life. But, I think he is at least owed the opportunity to be a part of his childs life. To not even tell him about it is unfair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a few cases, OM's have successfully sued the women---not only for paternity, but also for fraud. It's pretty rare, but it has happened.

There aren't any easy answers. In some states, infidelity is a crime. How should an OM have a "right" when to gain that right, he's committed a crime?

It's like breaking into someone's house and being bit by a dog, and suing the homeowner for damages. Oh yeah---that happens too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'm happy I'm not a lawyer

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong> Michael,

There aren't any easy answers. In some states, infidelity is a crime. How should an OM have a "right" when to gain that right, he's committed a crime?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, I think infidelity should be a crime in every state. No one should go to jail because of it, but it should be illegal and it should be a factor in divorce.

However, in reference to paternity, if an OM commited a crime through infidelity, so did WW. Would you advocate taking away a womans child because it was conceived through infidelity? No, you probably would not. So why is it fair to in effect take away a mans child?
Michael

Michael,

You stated:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes. To be blunt, the H is not the father of the child. An OM may or may not want to be a part of the childs life. But, I think he is at least owed the opportunity to be a part of his childs life. To not even tell him about it is unfair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it fair to allow a violent xom back into our lives? In the state that everything transpired for us, it states that if the woman is M'd, the child is assumed the H's unless the H contests paternity. It also states that if the "sperm donor"(not exact wording) does not file papers for paternity, as they should know that a P COULD be possible, and a certain amount of time goes by, he can not file ANY claim to the child. And trust me, the xom in our situation KNEW there was a VERY REAL possibility of a P!

As for saying that my H is not the father of the child, you are TOTALLY wrong! He knew of the A before we knew of the P, and he CHOSE to be the father of Abbi! Just as a couple who adopt a child CHOOSE to be the mother and father of that child, try to tell them that they are not the mother and father of the child. And, having been a birthmother who chose to give a child up for adoption, I don't feel that I have any claim to the child we gave up for adoption, as I am no longer her mother, in the sense that you are implying here. Yes, I did it willingly, but the xom in our situation could have tried to file for paternity, but he didn't, and I wasn't going to help him out in trying to ruin our M any more than he already had! He still had some contact with those around us, so he could have questioned any of them, and found out about the P. As far as I know, he didn't, and that's not my fault either.

Yes, the bible does say to be honest, but God also says DON'T invite the devil into your home! I had done so, with my A, but had shoved him out and slammed the door in his face, never to allow him in again! Why re-invite trouble into your home if you don't have to. So, is my H Abbi's father, YES, is it unfair to xom, NO.

Of course each situation is unique unto itself, but for ours, with the violence of the xom, and other factors, we are very secure in our decision, and no amount of shouting "unfair" will change that. Yes, not all xom are violent, but if the M'd couple are rebuilding their M, and the H has agreed to accept this child, why include someone that was a part of destroying the M in the first place? Oh, and for the statement about if the H can no longer support the oc or whatever, I can almost guarantee you that MOST, if not ALL, states will not allow the W to claim CS from the xom after 2-5 yrs if paternity is not contested or proven before then and the H had accepted the child as his own. As I stated above with the way the state worded it, it's true, if you are in an A, no matter if you use protection or not, there is ALWAYS a possibility of P! The only true, 100% protection is abstinence, so, if the xom just walks away after the A is over, and doesn't even try to find out if there was a child, and the H is willing to be that child's father, why reinvite trouble? It's not an easy decision for the H to make, but in our case we are MUCH happier now than we would have been if the xom were in and out of our lives!

So, do I feel it's fair that we never said a word to xom, yes, as we do not have his interferance in our lives EVER again. Plus, he and his family don't have to pay CS for someone that they most likely would have never seen anyway, due to certain circumstances. I avoided the trouble, not only for our M, but for his as well, if he is still M'd. But, that's none of my concern, as we haven't done DNA either.

Ok, I'm rambling now, and I will stop, but I wanted you to see that in situations such as these, there is no one way to do things, and there are certain reasons why couples CHOOSE to not have the xom be a continuous threat to their families.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if it was your H? From what I have read, he is a good, upstanding man. What if he had strayed and gotten an OW pregnant? Would you say he does not deserve a chance to help raise his child?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I wouldn't say that...I think???...not completely sure, because I've not been there. The word "deserve" just seems so odd in these circumstances. Being who my H is, I believe he'd want to know, so that he could do the "right thing", whatever that may be. However, I also believe a man, if he really wants to know, can find out as Tigger suggested.

All that being said, x-om in my situation was told...by me, before I even told my H. When I told my H of this, he was upset I had told him, but understood my reasons. Looking back, I think my reasons were lame, and mostly due to my "fog". Somedays I wish I hadn't told him, somedays I'm glad I told him. Like K said, at least he can't come back and claim fraud or whatever. Then again, maybe he could, because it would be a he said/she said deal. I guess I'm not too sure about anything am I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's not exactly true either, I am sure of one thing, and that is, my H is this baby's one and only true father, even if x-om does reappear.

~ad

Tigger,
you can what if things to death. If the OM was violent, that may be a valid reason to keep him out of your life. But then, if a husband in a marriage without infidelity is violent, he would be kept out of yours and the childs life also. Would not change the fact that he is the father.

I understand your H is now your childs father. But that is by choice, effort and love. But, when you were pregnant, and before your H became a part of your childs life, he was no more the father of your baby than I am.

You said why let the devil back into your marriage. Guess what. You cheated too. Does that make you a devil? Does that mean you loose the rights to your child? No, it does not.

I respect Autumnday. Whatever her motivations at the time, she did the right thing in telling her OM about the baby. The OM may or may not be a bad person. Simply having been involved in an A does not invalidate his claims to a child anymore than a WW being in an A invalidates hers. Laws are out of date, based on old English law before it was possible to even do a blood type test to confirm paternity. Times have changed. Laws will be changed.

In my state, the laws have already been changed, allowing a man to disprove paternity and stop paying CS even years later. In some cases, men have sued and won to recover the CS paid before they knew they were not the father. How long will it be before the laws also allow a man to prove as well as disprove paternity?
Michael

Swimming,

Is there absolutely no chance this baby is yours?

Nat

Michael,

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. See, from what I know of you, you have NEVER been in the unfortunate position to have an OC involved in your life, and you have filed for D, as you no longer love your W. Well, I have been on both sides of the infidelity coin, and no matter how you feel about me, when my H and family are threatened with death threats from the xom, he has NO rights to anything that involves my family! He got his punishment, and by the devil, I was not meaning the xom! I was meaning THE DEVIL!!!! I KNOW that I was wrong in my actions, and have paid dearly for them! Our decision was never made as a "punishment" for the xom, it was to keep our family safe, and to help rebuild our M! We did our research and we didn't have to tell the xom anything if we didn't want to, but that was also putting my H in the position of if, and we knew of this if, we did get D, then he would be paying CS for Abbi as well as our other 2 kids!

Your statements have always hit me as judgemental, and I don't appreciate you, having NEVER been on the OC side of the coin, telling me that it is wrong, the way my H and I chose to deal with the situation! Maybe if you were in our shoes, even before we knew of the P, living in fear with the xom stalking us, then finding out about the P, we made the BEST choice for ALL to not even tell the xom! I can still feel that fear, never knowing when xom would pop back into our lives if he knew of the P! He would sit and watch our home before he was kicked out of the military for the assult on my H(this because I chose my H over the xom!!!!) and threat on my H's life! SO, do you feel that a man like that would deserve to have contact with a child who is being raised by my H?!?! I know exactly what would happen, and THAT is not what I want for my family! If you knew the WHOLE story, you would probably say the same thing you keep saying, but until you LIVE it, you shouldn't judge our choices!

And, before you make some comment of "You must feel guilty if my comments make you this upset", Well, I have NO feelings of guilt what-so-ever! I went through my own trials, fear, frustration, anger, guilt, even contemplated suicide at times! So, to have someone come in and try to say that I was wrong, and that just because I didn't tell someone who would willingly kill my H, just because he chose to stay M'd to me, well, fine, but you really should try even just stepping into these shoes before you make judgements! I will stand by our decision(actually, I left it completely up to my H whether we would keep the baby or put it up for adoption!) and again, until you have lived in our shoes, please refrain from your disrespect!

If the xom, who was actually TRYING to get me P, didn't have the smarts to even find out if I had gotten P, then he is ONLY a sperm donor! In that manner, he will never know of Abbi, and we will never know for sure, as DNA is not going to be done! One more thing, before you question if something happens to her, medically, well, HE couldn't help anyway, as she has my blood type, and if you gave her HIS, she would die!(- vs + Rh factor) So, we consider xom the sperm donor, and those who use sperm donors NEVER have contact with the donor, is that wrong too???? We can pick this apart till there is nothing left, but of those who DO know "everything", we have their FULL support(including all my in-laws!!!!) in our decision!

The only thing I can think of is that this is hitting a little close to home for you, with your W's infidelity, and how you would have handled it, but you are very different from my H. He still loves me, and we have worked VERY hard TOGETHER to rebuild our M. So, from this point on, please refrain from the slight jabs at me and how we handled the situation of whether to tell the violent xom or not(NO WHAT IF'S, BASED ON FACT!), and there is NEVER a comparison between an abusive H and an abusive xom either!

Respectfully,

Tigger4JDT

Tigger, I do not question your motivation. I believe I even wrote in my last post that something like abuse or violence would be a reason to keep the xOM away from your child.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Sorry, but unless there is something along the lines of abuse or violence, I think a man has the right to know he has a child.

No, I have not dealt with a situation like this. I am very sensitive to it now though because an employee of mine is dealing with it. Long story short, he never knew about the child until he was hit for CS. Not fair. He is a good guy who would have, and does want, to be a part of the childs life.
Michael

****Edited by JustUss****

And I am sorry LemonMan but you are not going to call out and attack one of our very valuable members. Feel free to state your opinion on the topic WITHOUT attacking any one individual.

Explain how YOU are dealing with the OC in YOUR life.

But you are not going to pass judgement on any particular person.

Any questions feel free to email me...

JustUss2@aol.com

<small>[ August 16, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Well...... MY OPINION restated is that a man should know if he has a son/daughter. I think that witholding this information is wrong. Yes, "people" can use the exact letter of the law to rationalize things, but I completely disagree with this action. This is just my opinion and if many of you disagree with it, SO BE IT...I am entitled to it. When a child finds out the truth (and they will eventually), there will be a lot of devestation. I truly believe that things like this will usually resurface with the truth and then only more devestation and hurt will occur.

Disclaimer: These are the opinions of the poster and these views are not necessarily those of Marriage Builders or any of it's affilaiates. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So, Lemonman, what is your connection with an OC and or WS? How about dealings with a crazed and psycho OP(I have the police reports to prove it too)? Someone who would threaten my H, infront of a neighbor, and threaten myself and family in the form of "blackmail" letters does not deserve even a glance from me or my family! He stalked us for weeks after his arrest, but was actually smart enough to stay the required distance! So, I would much rather live my life w/out knowing FOR SURE the DNA of our D(H and mine) than living with the fear of some psychopath xom having some type of legal connection to us for the rest of our lives! Who knows, with his lifestyle, he very well could have pissed someone off just enough to get killed!

Bottom line, as a mother and wife, I will do ANYTHING to keep my children and husband safe! If you can't understand that, well, too bad. And, if you think that you can guilt me into feeling like telling xom or having DNA done, won't happen either!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MY OPINION restated is that a man should know if he has a son/daughter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, are you taking it one step further than Michael? That not only should the x-om be informed of the P, but also be called after delivery and given all the details? What if he doesn't want/care to know, do you still think he "should know"?

I believe any person who engages in sex, protected or not, should realize there's always at least that one small chance of a P. A grown man could easily find a way to find out, if he really wanted to know.

well in the state of florida the child is considered mine until prover other wise. The problem is the OM knows of the child and wants to be involved in the childs life. I told my wife that he will have to go to court to prove it is his and we can get child support. she said that she does not want to be a part of that because I am being mean and making things more difficult. Which is true I am making things difficult on him but also trying to make sure my wife is taking care of before I divorce her because I do not know how I will get past this guy in my life--he WAS a friend of mine. My wife said that she will sign the birth certificate with his name on it. She still has feelings for him "only after two months ==go figure" I feel she wants to stay married but does not think I can get over this. I am getting tired of taking the high road and the the emotions. I can guarantee my wife will make sure he sees the child even if I legally adopted it. So why even try

OK...

If I were in your place, I'd tell her she has a choice to make! No happy "love child" triangle for me! Me or him... not me and him.

keep in mind, this is from my POV not MB or anything else. I've been in this spot before and I won't deal with anything until that first Q is answered; me or him.

If she chose me, I'd be "mean" and make him prove DNA or take a hike. 3s a crowd.

If she chose him, I may plan A for a while... maybe. I'm not sure, y'know once bitten, twice shy.

again, just my POV.
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Oh and another thing!
Too bad you got thread-jacked with a bunch of crap from someone who's not trying to help or been in these situations enough to do other than stir crap up...

<small>[ August 18, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Painter ]</small>

I did not read that crap anyway. It has to be me or him. But I just do not think my wife has the character to choose me and not feel bad for him since this is the brother in law of a good friend of hers. She says that she has to figure some stuff out What ever?---I do not see the hard choice ===Me and 14 yrs married together 16 together and 2 children and all of our hopes and dreams.compared to 2 months with this jerk

Damn pal, I know.

13 years here. I still had to ask ... me or him.

After all that time, I'd hope she choose right.

It still boils down to that though. You may wait a while for that ultimatum, but in my mind thats where it all starts. It takes 2 to work it all out.

hoepfully she'll come through. I can deal with the baby, that will grow on me in a good way. it is him. if she can do the things to keep it on a business like level with him I can get over alot of stuff and slowly trust her again

Painter and Swimming,

I honestly don't believe that you are giving your W's a ultimatum by saying "him or me" because she does need to choose! I know that in your case, Painter, that Robel has chosen you, and you are both working together to grow closer again and repair the damage her A has done. As for Swimming, I can only imagine how difficult it is, not knowing what's going on in your W's mind! Luckily, or unfortunately for me(how ever you want to view it) I had seen the light about what I had done, and how the xom truly was. It sounds as if your W is still in the "fog" of the A, with all her feelings messed up. I wish I had a magic potion that you could just pour into her drink and she would wake up and see what she's done and is continuing to do.

Have you looked into or read up on Plan A/B? There are some awesome examples and helps to get you going with those. I also know that many here have gotten their WS out of the fog using one or both of those plans. How much of the MB principles have you read, and which ones have you been able to try to use? They really are GREAT and if used correctly, can save your M! As for the om, well, he needs to step back, NO MATTER WHAT, and let you and your W decide, w/out his outside influence, where your M is going. But only your W can keep him out at this point, know what I mean?

I wish that I could help you out more. Use this site as a guideline, and maybe even try the counseling! It is awesome, from other's reports, if you can do it! Otherwise, maybe check into counselors in your area who are either pro-marriage and or are familuar with the MB principles!

Tigger