I think that is where ow have the hardest time. They see themselves as this family unit, where none exists. Imagine how it must feel, to be pregnant by this man, thinking he is in love with you and he infact is horrified at you, and is ashamed of all that has happened.

Now a child is in the mix. The Husband and Wife are still together. They want contact. The courts say he is entitled to contact. With that contact means the oc is part of their family unit. A whole part of the oc life that the ow is not part of.

I think it scares them and it must make them feel insignificant, and that is why they play out their drama fests. "bw hates oc" "I only want xmm to be with me and the baby at my house", "bw might hurt the oc"

All that is just hiding behind their fear. If a couple is getting involved with the oc, she can't stop it at all. She can't control them, nor their time with the oc and I think it must drive them batty. They are on the outside of this. Not in control. I can see where that would make them scared.

We chose no contact. And never had any. The ow was begging for it. Pleading for my h to be a father and spend time with "them". She didn't get it. They are not a family, we are. Had we gone for contact, she would have been a drama queen. We were not going to subject our family to that. The married couple has choices, contact or not. The ow really has no say at all about they chose to do about oc.

So, it seems that no matter what a xmm and his wife decide it is never going to be what the ow really wants. And that is control. Control of the oc, and the xmm. But when it turns on her, and she sees that the xmm (and his family) have just as much right to the oc as she, it must scare them. It would terrify me if someone, who I knew disrespected me, was able to spend time with my children and raise them.

Someday when the child realizes the truth of their existance, no matter how much love is around them, they will know their birth caused grief for their stepmom. And guess who will be the woman they respect the most? The Betrayed Spouse who lovingly accepted them, pain and all. Of course they will love their mothers, that is a given. But when they are older and in their own relationships, imagine what they must think?

I imagine it as this: "gee, it sure must have been awful for June to help raise me after what my mom and dad did to her. I wonder how that must have felt? I love her and hate the thought of anyone hurting her like that, wonder how my mom could have done that? My dad sure is lucky that June stayed, I am lucky that she did."

I realize they will love all, but someday they will know the truth.

OK lynn that would be yet another AMEN!!! And that is so true. I have a friend whose father had an A and they had C and you know that man is oh about 35-38 and has more respect and love and compasion for his "step mom" which he couldn't have done w/o. His dad he has not respect for or his bio mom!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Ladies & Gents...read post: Daughter of Fidelity...processing feelings...that just confirms what is being said.

Lynn

You are discribing excatly how Xmm acts. He acts like we are one big happy family. When he was seeing the kids he always wanted me to come along, trips to the park, zoo, out to eat. He would even refer to my other children as his and made all these plans for us. He just forgot a few things, my H and his W. I woke up ( a tad bit to late, but still woke up) and realized what I was doing to my H and kids, he never did.

I also want to make public my opinion that the child will be fine. The child will react the same way they normally do in new situations, either they will be friendly or they will be shy.

Only the adults know who they are-the kid doesn't know or comprehend 'daddy' (@ least not as this particular child's age) so all they will think is that they are meeting a new 'friend', the title will be meaningless & will only gain signifigance over time when & if a relationship is nurtured & developed.

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Just personally, I find it interesting that my OW tried to pull the same type of junk! But what was stupider was that we all (H, BW & BC) had met OC THEN OW said H should come alone & visit w/ OC by himself so OC would not be overwhelmed!!!! I was thinking----what? we already met OC so why cut us all out now?...hhhmmmmmmm????

It is also the same opinion of MANY OW--that the W be excluded from ? number of visits so as to not upset OC??????? Forgetting ALL the other gazillion people OC has already met in their little lifetimes that never seemed to matter about OC getting upset.

They meet people all the time, everyday @ the grocery store, walking around the block, the ol' guy who walks his dog every morning........Kids are the most precocious (sp?) humans alive..to them...any meeting is just a chance to make another new friend!

I think if OC did ever get nervous or tense it is only because of the adults stress around them & I do agree that children can sense this & feel it. Babies especially.

And I also think that if a child is being put in daycare of any kind, then there is no reason for OW to be included in visits @ all except for maybe the very first one. After that--------the dad & his W should be left in peace to form their own relationship w/ OC.

IF OC can be left w/ daycare staff then they can certainly be left w/ MM & W & except for extreme cases(where there is a history of proven abuse & neglect, not just OW 'feelings') the MM & W should be trusted & respected.

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And also, many OW will say that W should not expect any more/less from OW than she would want for her own children--so ok, I do not leave my children in daycare (EVER)so i would feel VERY wierd if I ever had to leave my child w/ strangers but for those who do--------???? What's the difference?

ANd how can the xMM be such a stranger all of a sudden when OW WAS having sex w/ him? I mean when a baby is born it's own daddy is a stranger but we never exclude our H from holding the baby in the delivery room or being involved so how can ANY of these restrictions be considered reasonable?????

A stranger is only a stranger until you introduce yourself!

And these are not directed right @ M&TB but just making a general point. I really wish I could understand this thinking that I find so maddening then maybe I could understand my OW crazy behavior if I knew her rationale. Even the therapist says she is unreasonable so all I can think of is that ALL of these OW unreasonable requests are based on PERSONAL feelings of resentment & hurt & really have NOTHING to do w/ OC well being @ all.

Sorry if I TJ a bit here. But I sincerely find this thread interesting.

KT you bring an interesting point.

The OC attends daycare. When OW talked about the baby not knowing us and all. He brought forward that same point. How long did you stay with her in daycare until she knew them all? She didn't have an answer for him. Then came out with hours. Yeah OK.

Children will have separation anxiety thats normal. My kids did at their own grandmothers house. How do they "get over" it? They cry and the caregiver soothes them and makes them comfortable. That is how trust is established.

I would understand more if the the married couple didnt have children or had any experience. But when your talking about an established family? I dont buy it. As a matter of fact, having our own children is a plus. Kids love kids!

Hi MNtheBoyz,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it is still essentially he and I who must be able to parent this child </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you realize how hurtful this statement is. My husband just made a similar statement to me. He said that he and OW made the baby and that they had to make decisions concerning baby. He plans on leaving me out of decisions. That is what is destroying us. It is like he sees himself as a little family with her and a totally separate family with me. When it should be that he is a family with me and all his kids. And that OW be a family with herself and her significant other if you she has one, and all her kids. I also agree that kids bump into strangers everyday and meeting BW should be no biggie. I would love to be stepmom. My OW hates me simply because husband choose to stay with me and did not leave me for her. I would be afraid if OW made suggestion you have that if she takes an inch she might take a mile. I do think something like this could be harmful to MM's Marriage however secure it might be. BW cannot trust MM and does not know that he will in fact meet you in a public place if she is not allowed to come.

Genia, I agree with you. The majority of the problems arise because the OW wants to assume the role of "family= OW +OC - BW ...she doesn't want you involved so she can live out her fantasy. Your H better wise up and understand that he is playing a dangerous game with an already fragile situation...OW will become obsessed with trying to win over MM so she can have a "family too"...she wants what u have....read my post in "Question"...so u can shed some needed light on your H.
Your H is now getting comfortable with his role as being OC's father, so he is now throwing daggers at you to make u feel guilty for nothing. When he speaks, he is speaking the words that have been said to him from OW...believe me she is drilling that into his head, and he is listening. So you need to enlighten him with your new found wisdom of what the truth is, and how he needs to be handling this situation, since it is obvious that he doesn't have a clue.

meNboyz,

you've gotten really harsh but honest replies.

You were brave to ask here and patient to not lash back. Good for you; speaks well of your maturity.

Here's the problem:

"If the mother of your child was ABSOLUTELY no threat whatsoever to your marriage, would you feel comfortable with a first visit occuring as I have described?"

Can you imagine that BS might never "get over" seeing you as a threat, even though YOU don't see you as a threat??? Why should BS trust you OR her H?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

What is recommended by counselors and psychologically healthy people is for BS and MM to approach contact (if there is any) AS A COUPLE, or contact further erodes trust in the marriage. MM having contact alone with ANY woman after an A (esp. XOW!!) is, IMO, a major love buster and against marriagebuilders.

It's been 6y since my H saw XOW, and I STILL don't want them alone, even though I KNOW my H isn't interested in XOW.

I also think the first meeting w/OC could be (duh) emotional for the adults and that emotion, that bonding, should be shared between husband and wife, not husband and formerOW! Once we get USED to C, IF it's going smoothly (does it ever?), my H might p/u or deliver OC without me...

Some say only bio-mom and bio-dad should communicate about the child because of possible divorce(s)... is like my mom saying I shouldn't breastfeed my child because I might have to go to the hospital... UM, how 'bout we worry about divorce (or hospitalization or any other disaster) IF and WHEN it happens, and not ASSUME it will happen. Meanwhile, the MM and his W are the father and step-mom and all parties should TRY to get along for the good of the child.

I HOPE your MM and his W, is they seek visitation, will behave maturely too. Seems all too rare.

My 2c,
Jenny, successful recovery, meeting OC for first time soon

Gofigure,

My husband refuses to listen to me because he thinks my thoughts concerning contact are comeing from being brainwashed by marriage builders. Imagine that you all are brain-washing me. He actually thinks that I do not feel what I feel from inside and that I should not worry about him and OW because I should just trust him and let him handle it. He does not want to hear what any of you all say. So I am gonna just have to let him and OW have their way even though he tells me all the time that he loves me and not her. Yes I do beleive she has put all these Ideas in his head. He tells me, She hates you and she does not want you around her baby. I have always been polite to her. She hates me again because my husband chose me. But he wants contact with his baby and is letting OW control him through his baby. She can call all the shots because he lets her.

Genia,

Your H is sooooo wrong for what he is doing. But, you know what? Leave him alone. Don't ask him any questions about OW & OC...remove them from your conversation. Start doing your own thing. Don't tell him where you are going, or what you are doing...don't be rude, be the sweetest person you can be, kill him with kindness ( this is a tough thing to do, but u can do it) ....Your H is going to stop dead in his tracks, and wonder, what the heck is going on here...all of a sudden, the OW & her drama will not be so interesting anymore, because now he will be wondering what the heck is going on with my BW????? She is not saying anything, she is not asking any questions, something is not right here...

This task of yours will eventually lead you to your own peace because you will start doing things for U. You will feel good about U. Life is bigger than OW & her drama, and u need to not make that a bigger deal than what it is. See we tend to add more flames to the fire by all of our questioning, bickering, etc..we can't help it....but try this and see if it works for u. Keep praying.

Hi Gofigureit,

I am so past that stage with him. He is hopeless. I am kicking his butt out and plan Bing him. I have been useing Plan A for months and he has walked all over me. Thanks for your concern. Yes he is wrong.

Jenny,

Correct me if I am wrong, but your reply to menboyz seems to direct any/all problems with oc on the BW?

You state how this ow was "patient to not lash back" I see it as these wonderful BW were quite patient to answer her question in a thoughtfull and honest manner. Because MNB may not like what she heard is hardly reason for her to be called patient.

You also say "...I hope your MM and his W, if they seek visitation, will behave maturally too, it seems all to rare" Are you saying it is rare for the couple to act maturally? I have read KT's story and she acted beyond mature, downright saintly. It seems like the problem with visitation lie totally on the shoulders of the unreasonable ow. 99.9999% of the time the problem is the ow. I have never seen a single person on this forum, dealing with an oc who was not acting mature. I have however, heard many stories of immature, selfish, unreasonable ow.

<small>[ August 19, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]</small>

Lynn~

We're usually pretty quick to point out when an ow says something unreasonable, stupid, or hurtful, as we should. However,I see no problem for complimenting an ow when she holds her tongue. I think that's how Jenny saw what M&TB did...I know that's how I saw it.

Many ows would've lashed out, but she did not. Perhaps she doesn't deserve a pat on the back, because she behaved how she SHOULD behave anyway, but really, I don't see a problem with commenting on her patience and maturity, especially if that's Jenny's opinion.

Jenny is known, at least IMO, for calling a spade a spade. I believe she calls ows to task when needed.

As far as saying Jenny's "reply to menboyz seems to direct any/all problems with oc on the BW"...I just don't see that either. The only place I could remotely glean that is in her last two sentences, but then she included the MM, and she also said the word, "too", (not "only" the MM & BW).

The bulk of Jenny's post was clearly directed to the ow to open her eyes to the realities.

Sorry Jenny, for butting in, I know you are more than capable of explaining. Couldn't resist adding my take on it.

~ad

Thank you Autumn for coming to my defense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lyn, I fail to see how I place all blame on BWs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I too am a BW.

I agree that most of the time it seems like OC problems arise b/c of XOW. However, in 5+years registered at MB, I HAVE HEARD stories where the MM and/or his wife sound more problematic than the XOW re: OC, so I wouldn't call it 99.99%... more than 50%, maybe more than 75%, but not 99%. there are no official stats. Not every OC situation posts on MB.

meNboyz could be like the slimes that come here to stir up trouble and fight and attack hurting BWs, but she DID NOT, despite some really harsh words that she could have taken personally but didn't.

Peace.
J

KT, I can understand what your saying, but as a mother who does leave her kids in daycare I can tell you the difference. First let me tell you that I would HAVE no problem with the bw watching my kids either. The big thing is TRUST. Also, when you go find a daycare or babysitter you interview and you investage and you go meet and watch the interaction. At least that is what I did. I took time off from work to watch the interaction. I would want to watch the interaction with both the mm and wife. I think (which I'm sure most will disagree with me here) a ow is thinking okay the mm wants to be "daddy"...this is good, but is it because he truely wants to or is it because he just feels he has to or if in most cases so much DRAMA happened through the pregnancy and all it's a ploy..........especially if alot of words and actions were thrown do you know what I mean? This is your child that your talking about. I will just show up at the babysitter's house without notice early just to catch her off guard to make sure it's as good as it is when I drop off and when she knows I'm really coming. That's just me though. I had a bad experince with a daycare lady once with my twins and it's just there for me. There has to be security there. Again, I would have no problem the wife watching my child if as long as I knew she loved my child and really truely wanted to be a part of my child's life. But I also feel that the dad should be a dad and show me he really wants to be a dad. I feel that way with my x though too. I don't know if the bio father decided to have a realation at say a age of 2 or 3 or 4 how fast I'd want that to happen on there own. Those are ages that are different for all kids. All kids are different too. But like you said you drop your kids off at daycare........well they are seeing that person watching them everyday, and have a relationship with that person. It's stable and constant. All of a sudden at an age I mentioned before your throwing this man and woman into the picture that they've never met and you have to let that child get use to the idea of it. You also have to let that child know that this is daddy and this is jane who you still have to listen to, but is not your mommy. I guess that goes to the whole explaining the mess at an age approiate. My kids (all 3) are all very different. The twins are different from each other. One is not good with change. The other twin takes things as they come. Both the twins were like who the heck are you?????? When x and I split up they hated spending the night with him. They wanted to see him but it was a slow process and only wanted to spend daytime hours with him. Now the baby.........she does not know a stranger. She is charming and loves to make people smile. She makes eveyone smile when they see her and I can see her probally not having a hard time with change. Although she is only a baby and things can change.....but strangers hold her and she is fine. She looks at you and just smiles. She so far does not know a stranger. Do you know what I mean? Does this make any sense to you? I got away from my point. Okay yes the bw is included in that relationship and the whole family for that matter. The ow is saying okay xmm wants to be a dad so he needs to make the effort to be a dad and be in control of the child. It's his child to deal with. We all know that a woman is better with kids that is a given (well most woman) but it's just the way a mother feels about her child and the father. He needs to be the one to be her leader and boss....yes the family joins in, but that is her father. I don't see me ever wanting to have a family so to speak with xmm. I knew before I got pregnant he was not leavng his wife and I defintly knew when I became pregnant he would never leave his wife. He had said it so many times before and it never happened so why would this change anything??? I was at least not in la la land about that. I never thought he'd react and do as he did, but I knew that his family would be involved if he was ever involved.

<small>[ August 21, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

Jenny I've said it before and I'll say it again.....Take the label off. What do you have people. Every person is different and we all have our own personailities. I think in all cases no matter what that the way the person acts has nothing to do with there role, but there personailty. I've read quite a few boards both for ow and bs and mm. To me if all three adults in the situation are mature and hold any kind of maturity and are nice people then they will do what it takes to get a long. In these situations where there is contact there HAS to be give and take on all sides for the sake of everyone. You mentioned that there is no harm in the bw making the calls to ow and etc. Maybe down the line when trust is established. A bw can't just start demanding just like the ow can't just make demands on the bw. It's a two way street. I did all the arrangements with xh kids after I established a realtionship,as she liked me and not him. But I agree with you on what you said but only after a common ground has been established. How stressful is it to be making arrangements between two woman who are pissed at each other. I just really feel as I've seen it on all the boards that the title does not make the personailty of the trouble, but the person does. Then add the emotions of an affair and watch out. In my case, I've left his marriage and him alone. Well I filed for cs and all, and I guess in there eyes I was a rotton person for doing so, but I have no interest in there marraige. I don't care anymore. I quit caring a month after I became pregnant. (I cared, but I opened my eyes and knew I did not want that). Most ow believe it or not don't want that mm in the "life" anymore. They just want the mm to be what he is trying to be.........a daddy. Let's face it too, woman are woman. A woman's scrone is worse than anything. Again does not matter if bw or ow. Woman are more vendictive than men too. They are smarter than men........do you get what I'm saying???? BTW.........I am really hoping that your meeting with oc goes great and things work out for all of you.

this is a good topic. I would like to add for those about to experience this or wondering how to handle this, That a first meeting its a great idea to include everyone. Its also ok for mom to stay with every one for the first meeting, it will make the child less stressed and learn these new people entering oc's life. Like it or not, if the father is married to someone else, then his wife will be in your childs life, it is just a fact.

but look at it this way, It gives one more person for your child to love and who loves your child. How can a child be hurt by so much love, It wont be easy at first, My goodness we went through some adjustment, But Now My daughter is Healthy active, loving, and enjoys time with all of us, It becomes A huge co-parenting experience, and I must say we all work pretty darn good together. Although I bet we all spoil her a bit too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , But there is no doubt that all four people Love that little girl and work together to make sure she is happy and comfortable in her place in life.

Although I bet we all spoil her a bit too much , But there is no doubt that all four people Love that little girl and work together to make sure she is happy and comfortable in her place in life. <Mom Of Five>

That is precisely what I want so badly! I long for the day where all the BS is left in the past. Life is to darn short to clutter it with this nonsense. Love is the only thing real and it should scream from families. Regardless of how the family came to be. How fortunate for you little one!! Loved by all!! Beautiful!

Thank you

I dont post here often, but I just wanted those who are new that it can happen.


I think time is a big deal in this process, we are several years into it, and have learned alot along the way. But we do work hard together, we support each others rules, and are consistant with her...bedtimes,storytime, snacks, rules of the house, are close to the same in both houses.