This is a good thread. Ya know I've learned something else through this. This very subject is probally why there is less contact than there is. I mean this nicely not sarcastic either. The bw wants to make sure she has control of her situation with mm........and be in control and feel this and that are the best ways...then the ow wants to be in control of her child as that is her child and only wants her and the mm to have the decisions and last word and control over that child. So you mix the whole thing together and you've got drama and then more drama. The bw thinks the ow is being foolish and evil and the ow thinks the mm is spinless and coward and the bw is evil and foolish. Then you throw in that the ow thinks that only the mm and ow should be in control of that child as they are the bio parents and the bw feels that because the ow screwed around with a married man that she has the control and should of thought of that before she got herself pregnant, but the ow thinks hey it's my child and she choose to stay with the mm so she has to accept it the way it is.......I can honestly see why no contact is used more than not. AGain, this is not sarcastic at........I'm looking at this whole thread and seeing the two sides points of views.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by mom of five:

But we do work hard together, we support each others rules, and are consistant with her...bedtimes,storytime, snacks, rules of the house, are close to the same in both houses.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhhhhh methinks this is actually the easiest leg of your joint-parenting journey.

The adolescent days are looming ahead ... and with that comes the teenage rebellion .... and this child may discover fresh ways to play all of you against each other. As the child gets older, she may resent having to move from home to home to suit the adults ... she may prefer to stay where her friends are and not have to "sleep over" at a different home.

Teenage rebellion ... I wonder how this situation will play it'sself out at that time.... It's not easy under normal circumstances ..... but when the teen is riding a shuttle bus from one home to the other .... LOOK OUT!

Just a fair warning.... I think the "story time" days are the easiest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

pep
Thanks for the heads up, but I also know that being a mother of five, and an aunt to 22, That that is a possibility with any and every child alive. No matter what the situation they grow up. and I can promise you That little girl and my other children enjoy the fact that we are not fighting and transition has gone smoothly. I have children who are adult, and some n the way and the little one. So we have dealt with all the ranges. But i can promise you she will fair better having parents who cooperate and are not afraid of the other loving her.

But we will keep it in mind, and I see no reason to be dreading the future, when her father and I look forward to enjoying every min of her precious life.

As parents we all pray our children make better choices than we did, no more and no less than every one else.

<small>[ August 21, 2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

BY the way she doesnt ride a shuttle bus from one parent to the other, She only goes when she wants to go and if she doesnt want to go, we dont make her. That means om and my self. She has access to each of us when ever she wants, we don't follow a set date, just make sure he sees her several times a week, talks to her every day, and goes to his house when she feels good about going. Which is about once a week and I would imagine will be more in the future, I am very comfortable with this now. And frankly proud of how far we have come! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She needs every min with him she can have, Its important to us both.

No one situation is perfect and not every one works for every person. But We have a workable situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SaphireBlueUs2:
<strong> Although I bet we all spoil her a bit too much , But there is no doubt that all four people Love that little girl and work together to make sure she is happy and comfortable in her place in life. <Mom Of Five>

That is precisely what I want so badly! I long for the day where all the BS is left in the past. Life is to darn short to clutter it with this nonsense. Love is the only thing real and it should scream from families. Regardless of how the family came to be. How fortunate for you little one!! Loved by all!! Beautiful! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Saphire, I hope it happens for you too. If contact is going to be it has to be that way. That child is very lucky you want to love her. I wish you luck in this.

Thanks NTMO...

I think the love that I have for this baby is precisely what OW is afraid of. Can't explain it. But hubby feels it too. If I show to much affection its a bad thing for OW, if I hold back then I'am not being genuine to myself. I'm all or nothing, so she will just have to get use to it. I have to be me...

Saphire don't ever be ashamed of loving a child...anyone's child. That is why God put them on this earth..and I think to teach us unconditonal love. To bad if she can't accept you love that child.........I'd MUCH rather have a "loving" bw than and "evil" bw anyday of the week of year. I really hope this works out for you guys.

I've been thinking about this situation, the W going along for visits.

On one side, you have the OW, who yes in some situations trys to control the visits, who may still be yearing for the MM or is jealous and pissed about him not leaving his wife. Then you have the OW who is over the relationship, has no problems with the MM or his W. You also have the situations where the W has threaten harm to the Oc or has verbally bashed the oc. The OW has reason to believe that there is a hidden agenda behind the visits, especially if the MM hasn't shown intrest in the OC in a long time ( years).

In my own situation as a BW, when H started to see his son, I had no problem letting him go to OW's house to visit. I actually never thought of telling him I go along or no visits. I guess at that time I trusted my H enough. Yes, OW tried to hit on H, he refused. She has tried to control H through controlling visits and anything regarding OC. It doesn't work cause he doesn't bow down to her. I honestly think it pisses her off more knowing that I let H go visit without me along, trying her tantics then seeing H and I out in public happy.

Then on the OW side, I understand the feelings of not wanting the W around the Oc. Xmm W had threaten harm upon my daughter. Kept wishing harm upon her, calling her a [censored] child. I had a hard time letting W around my child. I did bite my tounge and let her come to the park with visits. I got to hear her make up stuff that they do to initate kids into the family, she talked about dunking my daughter into the toliet. Next thing I know she is accusing me of abusing my children. The W in this situation hates the kids, she will be nice when they are around, but as soon as they are gone, all hell breaks loose. Xmm has also tried to confuse my daughter, she considers H her daddy, Xmm would tell her "no, H is not your daddy, I'm your REAL daddy" She would come crying to me saying that her daddy is real.

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to give my experinces in contact. And to add, contact with Xmm is over. As for H and Xow, he is getting paperwork together to bring her to court.

FTR: our first visits did include OW. We were sensitive to OC & OW need to feel comfortable w/ us & the need to gradually move away from each other (figuratively, not literally).

I had OW IN my home so she could 'see' how H & I were w/ our kids & how we lived. If that is NOT more than reasonable----then I don't know what is.

It was the freakiest thing I have ever done in my life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Our very first meeting was @ a park, me, H, our kids, OW, OC & OW's other daughter. Then we had a few visits @ our home, then another one @ another public place-then I said that was enough. It was like a 'date' for all of us & felt very freaky. OW was ALWAYS late.

I remember @ one point, my youngest (@ the time) was holding one of H hands, then OC was holding his other hand & I think the other daughter was holding OC hand, & OW hand---------------IMAGINE THAT FOR A MINUTE---------they were all linked together like one big happy family-------then here I am on the side, 8.5 mos pg--------I am feeling sick to my stomach remembering it.

It was like a punch in the stomach-----that's when I said it was enough & visits did not have to include OW ANYMORE---OC was more than comfortable w/ us & the fact that she was NOT a baby......She was comfortable enought to ask H to pick her up & hold her so she could see the show better----so I think I was very justified in requesting that OW no longer be included. OC was more than ready.

AND that was when our troubles began........OW did NOT like the fact at she was no longer to be included, wanted to meet the grand-parents herself, started requesting H to visit w/ OC alone, questions why H has to bring W & kids blah blah blah. AND OC started daycare--that was the topper, OC could be in daycare all day but NOT w/ us a few hours?

And yes, we were only requesting a few hours @ a time to accomodate OC & OW needs.
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So from this (my) experience is how i have formed my opinions on this whole first meeting thing. There was NO reason for OW NOT to trust us, we were being very reasonable, sensitive & trustworthy. OW could see that our own cildren were well cared for & loved. So........

This whole thing about 'trust' is such a crock, I think. BW has to EARN OW trust? yet shouldn't OW be earning BW trust? And if it is to go BOTH ways--then sure---go both ways, you trust me & I can trust you until you give me reason otherwise right? & vice versa right?
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So what now? what do we do now? Someone tell me? tell me what am i supposed to do when my 4yo keeps asking for OC 'to come back'? That he misses OC? what am I supposed to do here?

WHAT CAN I REALLY DO? Where does my responsibiltiy lie? WHERE? tell me? I am such an evil, bitter, unreasonable BW? SO tell me what am i supposed to do here? AM I supposed to allow OW to walk all over us, call the shots whenever she feels like it so that my 4yo can see his sister(sometimes when OW 'feels' like it)? & then when OW is calling the shots, doing what she wants I then have an 11.5 you getting physically sick from it all?

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? What can I force my H to do? I can't create the $$$$$$$ for a lawyer. I can't create a perfect scenario. What can I do?

I have my friends telling me OW should be kissing MY @$$ in order for OC to have a relationship w/ her dad, or else they tell me to just let it go & be done w/ it. H won't say anything about it------you know that old' stuff away my feelings method--------so where does that leave me?

Really--------where does that leave the BW? Having to defend HERSELF all the time, & her actions when she was never a perpetraitor in this to begin w/ but suddenly HER motivations & actions are all SUSPECT! How does this make any sense to anyone? HOW?

Why isn't any OW afraid MM might hurt the OC & blame OC for ruining his fantasy life? why not? MM was happy w/ how things were going right? UNTIL the reality of a pg hit right? SO why not think HE would hate the OC or resent OC why not think that? But NOOOOOO it is always the BW who is the concern.

I AM SO SICK of this being a part of MY life that I have to deal w/ on a day to day basis for the entire rest of MY life! Yes, OW is currenlty out of my life but not really---------there is still 'prescence' of OC, we miss her, her clothes & stuff are here, 4yo really misses her, OC is obviously on his mind A LOT so it's not like 'outta sight-outta mind'--------so tell me now what to do?

Oh you can offer apologies, & sorry for you's & sorry for your 4yo but what does that do? Validate my feelings? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> SO what? I want something CONCRETE I can do to make this ALL go away FOREVER! I want my heart to not hurt, I want my 4 yo heart to NOT hurt, I want OC to not hurt (if she even is right now) I want my 11.5 yo to NOT hurt & I want my H to not hurt for having created this situation.

Tell me something I can DO & I will DO it. What good is it for me to sit here & rant & rave about it-I am helpless here.

I want to know WHY BW get the blame when we are the ones who are so desperately trying to hold all these pieces together for everyone.

Even my 11.5 yo, who I believe is relieved that OC is not around anymore-----he doesn't hate her---he may not like the fact of her existance & NOT miss her but he doesn't hate her. Even HE drew her a picture to mail w/ 4yo letter to OC--why? I think it was just becuase he knew she would be happy by it-so what if he doesn't miss her-he doesn't hate her! HE feels for his brother who misses OC becuase he knows that HE (4yo) loves OC even if he (11.5yo) can't right now.

Sorry this is so loooong & if you consider this a 'rant' but I am so frustrated. I don't want any sympathy or 'validation' for my 'feelings' either-I want answers which I know NONE of you can give me.

I want someone to stand up & give me SOLID advice on what I can DO or should DO. I want someone to stand up to these OW who believe & complain about these so called 'BW' who are gonna 'hurt' thier 'innocent' child! oh puuuhhhlleeze! What about MY innocent children who ARE actually hurt by this------forget all about what may or may not happen & focus on what is REALLY happening here!

It does NOT always work out people! I am happy for you if it does---but come on------for those of us who it doesn't work out for---I am not a bad person-----I am not a weak person who can't handle it (well maybe I am & I just don't know it) it is just not working--------I have done what I could------
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This is not BW fault or making so I think EVERYONE should really lay off of even THINKING of blaming or excluding ANY BW!!!!!!

KT,

I am not going to offer you any sympathy because I know that you are hurting right now. I can honestly say that I agree it is never the BW's FAULT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

C does create too much of a mess and may not be healthy for anyone including OC. You have done ALL THAT YOU CAN DO!!! POINT BLANK!

You will all have hurts through out this whole ordeal, but childrern are resilient!! They will soon get over this pain and move on to the next toy!! END IT NOW!!! Your pain will only continue and OW has no intention of letting it go!! Maybe never! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

JT

PS- This is not advice - just a thought!

Tell me something I can DO & I will DO it. What good is it for me to sit here & rant & rave about it-I am helpless here.

Honey you are doing it. You have opened your heart. You have put your feelings and pride aside. You have done everything possible to make it work. It is not all on you. You know this. Dont carry what is not yours to carry. You have done enough. Just keep doing what your doing for you and your family.

I completely felt every word for I have lived through it. Not as in depth as you, but the same feelings I have felt. Finally we said that we will no longer subject ourselves through visits with OW present because it was just too draining on us emotionally. You want to do whats right but there is a limit to what we as humans can endure. The idea of having my kids around that type of enviroment makes me literally ill. I have love to give but I cant shove it down someones throat.

You did your part...

Hi KT,

I am so sorry you are experiencing this kind of pain. I once felt pain when I gave birth to a child of rape. I gave the child away because I thought it was best for everybody involved. I was only about 22 years old. It felt like somebody had took a knife and cut a peice of my heart out, it felt so bad. But KT, you know what I had to forgive myself because I knew I placed this child in a wonderful family who could do more for this child than I could do. After about a year it did not hurt so bad. So KT, your husband has to forgive himself. And you all just have to love one another real good and put this in God's hands. If God wants OC to come back to you, he will bring OC back. You just pray.

KT, PRAY. and then I'd do what YOU feel god is telling you is right. It's not like you to sit and say anything. You may have to sit for a few days and think about it, but you are very good at getting your point across. Look at your options. You miss her too. You hurt for everyone! Get on the phone call the C, see what he saids. If YOU think this child should be back in your life, sit H down and tell him! He doesn't want to hurt either. P/U the phone and call the attorney. Tell him she is in contempt, if she is! You and your family have rights to live your life happy and know this child too. You both had a choice in contact, (maybe wrong but) sounds like H is tired of having his family hurt so, do you choose the minority or majority? Everyone has to give up something to make this work including the OW. But you know she's not going to agree to it. So do it legally, or thought C. But if your heart tells you this is best, then stand by it. Comfort your children and give the other to God to take care of. If that is what you feel is right. But this is your life god gave you and make everyday count. Thats all you can do. Oh I know you don't want it but (((((((Hugs to u)))))))
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I totally agree with Genia and Sunny;
Put in God's hands and pray!!!
You've Done all you can.

Thank you all so much, your encouragement really means a lot to me.

I spoke to H about all of 'this' & what he thought & felt about it. Letting him know that he doensn't HAVE to do THIS for ME.

He explained that he is NOT thinking about it because he just CAN'T. IT's too frustrating & upsetting for him as well so the way he deals w/ it (as most men generally do) is to NOT think of it @ all. (ever heard of 'men are waffels & women are spaghetti'?....... men compartmetnalize & women go w/ the flow?)

He says that on paper he has 'rights' but IRL-he has none. It doesn't matter what the piece of paper says if his rights are not respected & OW does what she wants. We cannot afford another attorney @ this time. If this latest promotion (yay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) goes as planned......maybe that will change. But until that happens--this is how things will stay.

We know we cannot change OW-so until she chooses to change-this is how it is. Even w/ 4yo missing his sister----this is for the best-----for now. He says it has caused too much damage for now already & 4yo will eventually get over it.....oldest (11.5 yo) will get some peace he needs & 2yo will be protected from the madness completely, for now. Then also for me, I won't have to be so frustrated w/ OW antics ect.

We do not really believe it will be forever....only until OC is able & willing to stand up for herself.

H says he MUST think to himself that OC is better off right now or else he will go crazy w/ worry---so he does not think of it------tells himself this is for the best for OC as well.

We are helpless to make any changes legally for now soooooo.....

ykwim? right?

I feel much better---sometimes we just need to hear that our H are not robots & are thinking & feeling too & it is reassuring for me personally!

I don't think this is a cop-out either. You don't have to believe me but I am the one living on the other side of this computer so trust me......this has not been easy. This was never about doing what was easy----I think you all know that though.

I am just here for the ride for now...whichever way it may take us. I know there will be bad days & good days & we have all been here for each other on this. I appreciate that.

I am praying.........all the time. I pray for all of us. I am also thinking-the heck w/ both of them! (H & OW) they can play their (really just OW) control games & if I miss OC & want to ask about her or talk to her or write her a letter-----I WILL!!!! I am not her parent right? I can be her friend & let her know I am thinking about her.

I don't care what OW thinks of me or my H. She can think bad about my H----but I know he is hurt & his way of dealing w/ this is to disassociate himself from it---OW doesn't know a damn thing that goes on in my home or between my H & I or a damn thing about what he thinks or feels. OW can try & act like & thinks she knows but I just sit back & smirck to myself that she knows NOTHING about him whatsoever! NOTHING-never has & never will.

I know his heart, his mind, his body & his soul. I know his deepest hurts & joys. No, I will never know everything about him--but I am the closest one to him that will know the most. OW doesn't even know him as well as some of his friends.

But I digress.......my point is......that I feel better. ANd I did have some sort of relationship w/ OC & NOONE can control it. I may not be able to see her or have her in my home for now..but i can still write to her & ask about her via the therapist.

I MISS OC! never thought I would but---hey----I never cease to amaze myself. (and I bet some of you thought I was so hard/cold hearted! lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I KNOW I probably know her better than H--what mother doesn't? SO what? Doesn't make him a bad parent-makes him a dad! LOL And I don't care if OC misses us or not----I miss her-so what----she's a kid-------she doesn't have to miss us right?

anyway-------I digress again. Thanks again. You guys are the best & I hope you all know it.


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HAs anyone see 'Open Water' has it even opened yet? It looks thrilling anyway. Do you think it will be the JAWS for this generation?


Want to hear something funny & totally OT: When my mom was 'younger' (in the 70's) SHe was pretty nice looking (could hold her own in a bikini! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) long straight hair, & legs to match. Anyhoo----one time, a guy was trying to pick up on her & I guess she wanted to impress him so she told him she was in the movie JAWS! LOL LOL LOL Which I think is sooooo funny because you would have to of believed her because how could you not? How could you disprove her? There were TONS of people in that movie! I just thought to myself-------good line mom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


blah blah blah-- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
TGIF!
Have a good weekend everybody!

Oh, KT. You are such a wonderful woman. Nobody can tell you what you should do,a this time. However, as time goes on, and the oc is out of your day to day life, your children will be fine.

I too get angry when ow are on here talking about how the BW wants/needs to control the MM. AH HELLOOOO. Why wouldn't they want to control their own lives? But I guess OW need to blame BW for everything, instead of facing the cold hard truth. In your case, I believe your ow is a bitter shallow woman who is truly pissed that your husband chose you over her. Of course, the natural saying of OW is he has no balls, yada yada yada. Same old crap. Bottom line, she is a psycho who couldn't care less about your children, or her own for that matter. Look at what her actions have done.

So, you have nothing to feel guilty about. Spend time with your kids, have fun and someday, your oc will contact you and things will be fine. Someday she will be a teen and able to get around on her own, and her mother won't be able to do jack if oc wants to see you.

Right now, take care of your kids. I'm sure the oc is fine. Just live your life and be happy. Don't let this rule you anylonger. You only get one life to live. Your kids will grow up fast. Put this behind you and enjoy their childhoods.