MeNtheBoyz,

Guess I am in the dark ages. My youngest is 9 years old. When I had him, I got him part of the time in my room but he stayed in the nursery part of the time. She does want him there so I guess he won't be just peaking through the window. I guess you just opened my eyes to the reality of the day. I guess this means he will be in her room if he goes. The more I think of this, the sicker I feel but husband just cannot comprehend my pain.

Originally posted by Genia:


I missed the debate. I agree with Gofigure. My husband is a very selfish person. He says that he puts his kids first.

But Genia, in a healthy M the husband puts his wife first! Know why? Because if the wife is happy, safe, and grounded with knowing her husband is "there for her" ...then the childrens' lives are also safer, happier and furthermore, as adults they tend to grow up more capable of having a good M themselves. Children thrive in a stable home, without drama-stress if possible.

I used to beleive him. Now I see that it is just a coverup so that he can talk to his baby's mamas.
I saw that because he recently got the number of his second baby's mama and he has been calling her. He calls OW's number every two or three days.

And what do you think is going on here?

Is he co-parenting with these calls? Talking to the kids? What do you know? What do you suspect?

I had to get after him to go see his kids that his sister is keeping.

His sister has custody of one of his kids? Have you thought about getting custody yourselves?

So he uses this baby as a pawn to get to OW. He wants to visit OW in hospital to support her.

This is part and parcel of an unresolved affair. Now the A is likely remaining in the EA stage. But, still dangerous to the stability of your family.

He loves me but want to hang on to OW too.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So? What else is new? LOL! Is this not true of all cake-eaters? Desire the wife and home for security and still enjoy the company (either EA or PA) with another woman? Par for the course, all of them do this. The question is.... what is YOUR plan.

Talking seems to do no good with him.

100% correct!

Talking to him trying to ~change his mind~ is a big old waste of your good energy.

In Plan A your are not supposed to be "educating" your WS.

Your working your PLAN keeps you away from such wasteful energy-draining and love-bank-emptying activity.

Plus, like you said, it does not work. So, stop doing it.

He tells me what to do, and does what he wants to do.

Disrespect is rampant in your marriage.

How can you draw your husband willingly back into the marriage with mutual respect?

This book has a pretty good script to follow:

"Love Must Be Tough" .... by James Dobson. He's a Christian author. He is heard on the radio program "Focus On The Family" ... you can tell his loyalties lie with strong families and healthy marriages.

This book has examples of how the betrayed got the wayward back ... especially when there is a HUGE degree of disrespect for the betrayed spouse.

I highly recommend this book if you've not read it.

The only thing that will work with him is to tell him my wishes to be involved in visitation, and if that does not happen, I need to kick him out of my house.

Well, you need to stick with your Plan A right now.

No LBs. No selfish demands, etc.

Plan B can be a future way to go .... but while you are in Plan A .... work it baby, work it!
BUT, Plan A does include your respectful statements of your boundaries.

You don't argue your boundaries, you simply state them clearly so there is no mistaking your strength in you convition.

"When you talk to your "OW" after I have informed you that it hurts me when you do this, I feel very disrespected. It hurts me."

STOP THERE and do not engage in any arguement. If he gives you his "reasons" for doing this .... say "It hurts me when you do this. I feel disrespected."

Repeat the comment as many times as necessary if he continues trying to debate your feelings.

You own your feelings and they cannot be argued away. So do not try.

What books have you read on this subject so far?

Pep

Hello all,

Its just like the OW to stake claim, which is her right isn't it, and say that OC is there child (yes we know), and that only two people have legal say over the OC's concerns (yes we believe we know that too...OW & MM are the parents and have legal say over the OC....in other words THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE BW BECAUSE BW IS NOT THE OC"S MOTHER. Let the whole world know that OW is THIS OC's MOTHER... Nothing wrong with that. ) People really should say what they want to say, and not twist anything. I guess we all try to be cordial along with getting our points across. The misconception is that OW looks at OC, self, and MM as a family....minus the BW. If she had her choice their would be no BW...isn't this the point of this whole charade?????
Yeah, so it is written that the OW would rather deal with a woman when it comes to a child, but they really look at BW as a threat....Mother Vs. Mother...or Women vs. Women...forget about the needs of the child, this is a standoff..lol)..this whole thing is ridiculous....yes everyone makes mistakes, but I really wish that more people would consider the consequences of what is to come when it involves other people's lives...this world is full of selfish, vindictive people...we all need to be praying. It is so sad.
Once again, believe me, I don't know any BW that would rather deal with this situation by choice...BW did not ask for this situation, but then the OW has the nerve to want to create waves,and make situations harder than they need to be, and the MM has the nerve to have attitude, and try to enforce his foolish behavior on his family trying to make BW believe that he is doing what is best for all???? Yeah and some BW's may act a fool as well (I think we are entitled to a WHOLE LOT of venting here...sorry), ...what did u expect her to do, jump up and down and be happy, and thank OW for having her H's baby?????? Let's be real. Yes we must try and act like mature adults, but there are boundaries as to the amount of respect we should receive, and the way we should be treated. We can not be doormats to anyone.

Genia take care of you. When you are up to par, and u get yourself and your mind together, it will reflect upon whoever comes around you. Believe that! Don't worry, just pray.

Sorry for all the rock & roll going on in this thread...but we are just all trying to express ourselves, and help u at the same time...no offense intended at all (smile)!!!1

Again, just my 2 cents....

Pep,

I have tried to work Plan A for 7 months. I am ripe for Plan B. As you can see from the thread MNtheBoyz started, I am experiencing emotional abuse from him and my kids as well. I just haven't got the strength yet to leave but I am sure it will come.

Gofigure,

Your picture of the situation was very good.

Genia,

Thanks for your comments. I know one day u will be happy. You will be Ok. WHy do I say this? Because I can tell that u r not a troublemaker, it seems like u want peace, and you will get it. I believe that. So stay strong for you. Love yourself.

We as BW's always try to do what is best to please everyone else, and we forget about ourselves. Take time for you. Do what you know is best for you now.

Just to throw another little chink in here...Isn't it interesting that if I was married and had a baby, my husband would be that child's legal father, even if he wasn't the biological father...thus giving him rights in parenting...It wouldn't matter whether or not the OM didn't think it was in the child's best interest to have the BS involved with the child. Especially if paternity had not been legally established...Hmmmmmmmmm. Yet, we, as female BSs have no such rights within our marriages to WSs.

Hi Heartfailure,

It is unfair somehow. The rights always go with the woman and child. If the man is married to the woman, then he gets equal rights. I think that was put there to protect marriage from outsiders. However, I think with all these OW these days interfering in marriage, that there should be other laws to protect the marriage. That if the man wants contact with OC, that that should automatically include his married partner since they are one. Maybe fewer women would get pregnant by married men then. Maybe we should try and get new laws passed. Also I think that when OW gets pregnant by MM she should not be able to touch the wifes income. This should never be. It is very lucrative to get pregnant by a MM so a woman can get CS from MM and BW. This is totally unfair since BW has no say or protection in this. You cannot go out and buy insurance against OW having affair with Husband and compromising your income and assets.

Genia, when i went for cs I was not able to toch her income. Not that I tried...she did not create a baby with me....but non of the less, I believe in most states anyway that you can't touch the wife's income.

Genia,

What makes you think your H loves you? Really, why?

From EVERYTHING you have written about him---is NOT the definition of love. Maybe you don't know that because you have never seen real love, I don't know but the behavior your H is exhibiting towards you is NOT love.
**********
**********
Do you have health insurance? Most insurances these days cover plenty of therapy visits & you just pay the same co-pay or a little more. Most companies allow about 32-52 visits a year or so, which would be about every other or once a week.

Pep has asked you many very straightforward questions & some of your answers or lack of, say a lot.

I think your troubles in your marriage go way beyond this OC situation, which I think is the point Pep is also trying to make.

But if you can realize the power you have to change your self & you can raise your standards to the treatment you deserve then------you will start getting the treatment you deserve because you will be unwilling ot allow anyone to treat you otherwise.

It is normal to want to be respected & it is normal to be treated respectfully. It is not ok to be treated disrespectfully.

People that LOVE each other do NOT abuse or disrespect each other. That is NOT love or loving behavior.

kwim?

G. If I were in your shoes I would be doing what Pep is telling you. THEN I would be getting all my ducks lined up. I would be preparing for the worst. This man is abusive and cruel to the extreme. How dare he even consider being in the hospital, let alone the room with her when this child is born. Good grief, women give birth every day, it't not a big deal, medically. He is not her husband, and therefore owes her not one iota of support. Their are highly trained, compassionate nurses there to help her through this.

I would keep telling this man how he is hurting you with this and do not beg, argue or cry. Keep telling him how it hurts. If he continues to disrespect you in such a hurtfull manner, make it very clear to him what you expect:

1. No more phone calls, regardless of the situation. Until DNA is established, her having a baby is none of his/your business.

2. Your marriage comes first. PERIOD. Decisions have to be made where BOTH are comfortable with them. If not, what is the point of being married?

3. Make it clear, that his being at the birth, or near that hospital will be telling you that you and your family do not matter, and you will adjust your life accordingly.

THEN STICK WITH IT. You need to TELL HIM what you will accept. He is hurting you and your children and that is all you have to care about.

Personally, if this were me, the papers would be ready to go. IF/when he should be at that hospital, he would be served immediately.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I think you need to read the whole MB site again, along with the book. If he keeps dissing your needs, what is the point of staying with him? He is making demands, and walking all over your heart.

You are to good for this.

Originally posted by Genia:


I have tried to work Plan A for 7 months. I am ripe for Plan B. As you can see from the thread MNtheBoyz started, I am experiencing emotional abuse from him and my kids as well. I just haven't got the strength yet to leave but I am sure it will come.

OK Genia.... this one's from the heart.

I love MB. I love how it can reconstruct what was once a previously healthy but "lazy" marriage back to health after the sickness of infidelity.

But, MB does not work very well if the marriage was not ever healthy. It could work, but not as likely.

MB does not work very well if there is a spouse with a disease such as a severe mental health issue (until the underlying condition is brought back to stability).

MB does not work very well if there is active substance abuse usage by one of the spouses. Especially Plan A does not work with active alcoholics or drug abusers! The active alcoholic LOVES Plan A worked on them, it is a ticket to drink without consequences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

My H was an active alcoholic when D-day occured. The first thing the therapist said to me (in private) was that he did not work with active alcoholics, OR with dry alcoholics. He said the dry alcoholics were worse than the drinking alcoholics! Because the drinking alcoholics had their booze to quell their anxiety, and the dry alcoholic had anxiety issues off the chart!

The therapist told me he'd only do couples therapy with us if Mr. Pep was going to AA faithfully.

So.... I drew my boundary.

I told him:

"You have to go to AA meetings, if you want to come back."

His reply :

"I won't drink anymore."

I said:

"You have to go to AA meetings if you want to come back."

His reply:

"But I said I will stop drinking."

I said:

"You have to go to AA meetings, if you want to come back."

**** THIS is a technique called "broken record" taught in assertiveness training.****

You think long and hard about your boundary. You come up with a simple statement that is not a put down to your husband, and you stick with your boundary no matter what he says.

I am not a big fan of promoting MB when there is an ongoing abuse issue within the marriage.

For me, Genia, love is not the foundation of a healthy marriage.

Respect is the foundation.

Without respect, love will die. Or love will be abused.

Respect does not thrive under abusive conditions.

With your history of childhood abuse, you are likely to choose, out of the entire male population, a man who will treat you like your father treated your mother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You grew up in a home void of respect and healthy boundaries. You live in a marriage void of respect and healthy boundaries.

Love is not the issue. I think your H loves you. I think you love him. But, there is not a respect foundation, and love cannot stand by it's self, can it?

So, in my opinion, I think the buck stops with YOU. Your decision is not "Do I still love my husband? Does my husband still love me?"

I think your reality check is this:

"Do I have respect in my home? How can I construct healthy boundaries for myself?"

Has anyone ever talked to you about boundaries?

If your Father kissed you on the mouth and put his tongue down your throat when you were small.... how the hell do you know what a healthy boundary looks like?

I don't think you do .... yet..... but I see you are moving in that direction!

YOU are one strong person, and I see you getting stronger.

There are books about this subject. Go to Amazon, and do a book search on "boundaries" .... also do a google internet search using the same word.

Your have to fix YOUR fences Genia. If you have no fences defining what is and is not acceptable to your dignity ... you will get walked on.

The buck stops with you Genia. Where do you want it to stop?

Love and kisses (on the cheek) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi Pep,

Thanks so much for your concern. My husband is an addict. He was going to meetings faithfully when OW was going. She is an Addict too. He met her there. I could hardly drag him from a meeting. He would stay past meeting to be with her. I would call and ask when he was coming home, and he would say he was talking. Now he had not been to a meeting in two weeks. Husband has been clean for two years now. No I did not know he was an addict when I married him. He hid it very well. I am however, very much in love with him now, more so than when I married him. I am talking to him about respect but feel like I am talking to a wall. I went to a psychologist. She told me that she could not help me unless I left my husband. I did not go back to her because I love him so much.

Originally posted by Genia:
I went to a psychologist. She told me that she could not help me unless I left my husband.

I see a big old gap in the story Genia.... Just what part are you omitting? I am sure she worked with you for awhile before she told you she could not work with you further. So, be honest, what part have you left out because you are embarrased to say it or don't want to admit it????

I did not go back to her because I love him so much.

Are your kids being exposed to some lifestyle choices they would be better off protected from .... because you love someone too much?

Pep

Hi Pep,

Psychologist only seen me once. She told me this because he cheated on me, and because of the fact that he is having a baby by another woman. She did not think that I could heal as long as I was in the middle of that chaos. I think she is of the theory, once a cheater, always a cheater. That is it. No preverse lifestyle. He comes home every night. We sleep together every night.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Genia ]</small>

GENIA!!!!!

I HOPE you demanded a refund of her fee!!!!!

Pep

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up on this psychologist. It was free. My job paid for it. I am getting better counsel from the Crisis Center for Domestic Violence and Sexual Abuse in the town I work in.

Pep,

Husband said something the other night that did bother me. I was bad mouthing OW. Is that a love bust? Anyhow he became protective of her and said she bad mouths me too. I asked if he stood up for me to her. He said he was tired of us bad mouthing each other. Does this mean my husband is still in the fog and trying to keep the worlds separate as one wayard husband stated. I guess him having OC by OW makes it harder for him to keep the worlds separate. Now If I was to stay married I would have an interest in OC. OW is tertritarial over OC as I am terraterial over my husband. I do not want husband near OW. OW does not want me near child. And husband wants contact with OC but does not want to do it legal. Why does husband want to give OW her way but does not seem to care about me getting my way? I guess husband is still in fog even though discovery day was New Years Eve.

I was bad mouthing OW. Is that a love bust?

Well, probably. Why were you doing this? What was your purpose for doing this?

Did she just come up in the conversation, or were you venting, or what?

Personally, I think you should save your breath. Use your mouth to say and do nicer things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I see no "net gain" in your favour.


Anyhow he became protective of her and said she bad mouths me too. I asked if he stood up for me to her. He said he was tired of us bad mouthing each other.

He's tired of being in the middle!!! ~LOL~

Then he should make a decision where he wants to be.

Sounds like he's "emotionally" living in 2 houses at the moment.

"Why can't my 2 women just get along?" Cakeman that he is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Does this mean my husband is still in the fog and trying to keep the worlds separate as one wayard husband stated.

yes ... looks like that way .... but YOU are there and I am not. What does it look like to you?

I guess him having OC by OW makes it harder for him to keep the worlds separate.

I guess so.

Now If I was to stay married I would have an interest in OC. OW is tertritarial over OC as I am terraterial over my husband. I do not want husband near OW. OW does not want me near child. And husband wants contact with OC but does not want to do it legal.

He wants what he wants when he wants it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Why does husband want to give OW her way but does not seem to care about me getting my way? I guess husband is still in fog even though discovery day was New Years Eve.

Genia, saying this as gently as I can.... some affairs are a one time deal....
the FWS will proclaim once out of the fog, "OMG! WHAT was I thinking? What an idiot I was. That is so NOT like me to act that way."

And, it's true. The affair was SOOOOO out of character for that person.

Then, there are other affairs that are NOT a once in a lifetime "worst mistake ever made" sort of deal....

Some affairs are a lifestyle choice. That is, a lifestyle trend that continues. Usually this WS will have a history of more than one affair ... all for "very good reasons" according to them.

I am not so sure right now Genia, where your husband falls. Is he a once in his lifetime affair-man ...or is this a pattern of how he chooses to live.

The fact that he has been married multiple times is a cautionary mark, for sure.

What do you think Genia?
Pep

Hi,

Why did I bad mouth OW. I could not resist. We were watching a movie with this Hottie Chick in it. He said she was not all that. She was pretty by the way. He likes Leta a wrestler. So he likes the tough woman type all of a sudden. He used to tell me he was into small women. I am not real tiny, but I am small framed. So I was commenting on his new taste in women and why he picked me. By the way his top emotional need is to have an attractive woman. So I guess he keeps me because I have a big heart.
I am not sure if he is a serial cheater or not. He lies so much to cover his tracks, so he would not tell me if he cheated before if he had. I know there is no other time in my marriage that he treated me the way he did when I found out he was cheating. If he is still in the fog, then I guess it is not time for him to show his true repentance. After all Plan A gives no consequences for his behaviour. Plan B does and my boundary is that if he spends one more night away from me without my permission, I will Plan B him.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Genia ]</small>

Have your got a Plan B letter in your back pocket?

You need a real letter to have an effective Plan B work in your favor.

It's good to have things ready, just in case.

It needs to be UNemotional too. Not done in anger, but done as an act of love.
Work on that for awhile Genia.

If you need Plan B letter samples, post a thread on GQII asking for that specific help.

There are some Plan B letter experts on that forum.

Pep