JT,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey I just saw it DUH! it did post.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEllll-0000!! having a long day? LOL!
Actually, the same thing happened to me earlier...

And GOOD FOR YOU that you have all those tape transcripts!!!! Sounds like you have a good lawyer.

I think this IS a marraige building concept & topic.

My H showed signs of abusive behavior early in our marraige & if I think back probably while we were dating.

Chalk it up to being too young(re: idiotic) & naive, I vaguely thought 'jealousy' was flattering. I grew out of that soon enough but learned how to tread lightly & 'avoid' certain subjects so as not to upset dear H.

Then the verbal attacks started & were always somehow my fault I figured. I coudl stand up for myself but still felt trapped by the situation. I remember one time my H pushed me w/ my oldest (baby @ the time) in my arms! But I thought it 'wasn't bad enough' to be constituted as abuse!

Which was in the past & woudl go on to be a pattern of my thought processes. Somehow abusive situations were never 'bad enough' for me to think it was 'abuse'.

Things even escalated so far one night that my H started accusing me of cheating on him & threw a phone @ me, which did hit me & tried to physically throw me out of my house while my child was upstairs. And any mother will tell you-if there is any kind of threat-she is NOT leaving w/o her child!!!! LOL That was when I finally became scared enough to know that THIS was NOT normal nor acceptable.

I called a close friend (pastor's W) to send the pastor over to talk to my H. Boy was that a mistake. My H manipulated in such a way as I had never seen before. So it was down-played enough that I knew pastor would not take me seriously or believe me. He recommended we get some 'counseling' for our 'arguing'! I felt utterly defeated & alone, once again thinking it must not have been 'bad enough', I am just exaggerating!

We did start counseling-----whoopie! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That was a joke-H temper did seem to improve but little did I know it was perhaps because his energies were being spent 'elsewhere'! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I was told I had issues & was 'controlling'---psycho-babble @ it's finest!

I attribute his change in temperment to his own will to change (or who knows what) but it was not the 'counseling' we got that's for sure. We really could have used some real professional counseling during that time & many other things probably would have been avoided (A).

My point is-----some men do change, my H is a dear now. Honest to goodness, but what a waste of all that time if we had gotten some real professional therapy.

There were other abuses in my life, not related to H that I endured because I thought they were not bad enough to constitute abusive behavior! Only now am i realizing that I was right all along & everyone else was disfunctional!

I cannot change the past but you better believe I am taking a stand for my & my children's futures.

I am gonna make DANG sure NONE of my children will EVER be abused. They will have a very clear understanding of what abuse is & looks like & it will never be twisted in their minds the difference between love & abuse.
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Sorry a little off there. But my point is that this awareness is a part of Marraige Building. When the 2 partners cna recognize bad behaviors & properly address them BEFORE there is an escalation of obvious porportions then the marraige has a better chance of being saved, healed & restored.

It's all about having a healthy realtionship which consists of healthy boudnaries I think.

It's like you train your children to be respectful by not putting up w/ their disrespect right? YOu can train everyone to treat you w/ respect by not putting up w/ even the first signs of disrespect, kwim?

I think it starts by recognizing our own unhealthy patterns, some set in childhood. I had a pattern of accepting some forms as abuse, thinking they were not abuse. I was not protected by those that should have been protecting me so I just 'tolerated' things.

Anyhoo----that's my 2 cents, that there IS hope but I think it starts w/ ourselves & realizing first & formost that we can't change anyone but ourselves.

My H changed because he wanted too, not because of anything I did. His priority was to keep me & our marriage & realizing that he would not be able to do that by continuing his own destructive behaviors.

That's a good thought KT, I appreciate it. I have been waiting to hear from you for quiteawhile now. The advice is well taken at least by me.

All of you seem to be a such a place in your lives and m that I aspire to be. This has been a very rough 10 months one that if I were in just a couple of years ago would have walked away from with no regrets and immediately. I would not have even thought of trying to save it. A H who has had an outside child please I would have been racing to the court house not needing an explanation or second thought.

So I thank God for my growth about a lot of things. I am not sure if I have ever mentioned this before, but I am living my biggest/worst fear. It is even before dying. I don't know how I could do it before coming here. You girls have shown me a lot. And I thank each of you for your wisdom and kind words of comfort.

I took a stand finally, a stand for me and my children. I will not be abused anymore.

Thank You,

JT

meNtheboyz,

No problem with bringing up this topic on this site. Yes, abuse can be a major obstacle with Marriage Building. Dr Harley has quite a few articles and discussions about abuse on this website,,,starting with....
How to Overcome an Abusive Marriage

I want to thank you for bring up this topic. I got out of an abusive marriage over three years ago, although I am still not divorced officially...another control thing???

After reading the posts, I see now that xMM was just as abusive, albeit not physically. I saw him as my saviour from my husband...stupid hun? But I let him control me too...I didn't see it then but after I sued him for CS, he went nuts and I see it now as him losing his control over me. In my experience from my marriage, it is when we take back control that they become the most dangerous. When I asked for a divorce,things got really bad. Scary actually...one night he woke me up in the middle of the night, mid winter and threw me out into the snow and locked the doors. In retrospect I should have left and then told him.

At any rate, I have to live the fact that I got involved with not one, but 2 abusers...I have to figure out now why I did. I have been spending a lot of time lately trying to work out how I became a person who could be with a married man for three years. How do I move on and not be afraid of my own judgment in men. Anyway not a topic for this board...sorry if I offended anyone.

KT,

I want to thank you so much for your story. I am in my third abusive relationship. I am so glad your husband was one of the lucky ones who could change. My husband does not see that he has a problem. He beat on his last wife, and he blames her. He has not beat me yet, but uses emotional abuse and threats with me. I do not know if there is hope for our relationship, and I feel unsure of how much he loves me. I will do everything in my power to regain respect for me and my kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this IS a marraige building concept & topic </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess the reason I said I didn't think it was is that personally, I wouldn't under any circumstances encourage a woman to remain in an abusive marriage.

For safety and sanity, the H must be removed from the home.
Now, that doesn't rule out reconcilliation, I'm not suggesting the woman should run out and file for divorce, however due to the ability of the abuser to be a master manipulator, firm boundaries must be set and contact should be limited at best until the abuser TRULY begins to seek help.
Being the manipulators they are, it is VERY common for the abuser to go through periods of perfect behaviour in order to regain the trust of his partner. It is cyclical. He abuses, he repents, he abuses, he repents again....A man can even go YEARS without abusing, but will likely be triggered at some point when proper treatment hasn't been sought. I'm not saying that will happen in YOUR case, KT, but it is the statistical norm.
That cycle is easier broken while living seperately.

As I've said before, there is a shortage of proper programs and treatment options for abusers, but if one truly seeks help, reconcilliation MAY happen, but FAMILY COUNSELLING IS A MUST!!

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: meNtheboyz ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> G, I feel for you. How is your C going? You need to find out why you are attracted to the abusive relationships. You have a strong, beautiful peson in there. I think maybe you have lost her. But she is there, trust me, and wants to come out. Don't think about this being your third and feeling like you are not ment to have a healthy, happy, loving relationship. YOU ARE! I've two have been M three times. And if this one doesn't work, well next time I will wait for God to bring me the man he wants me to be with. It could be H now, we shall see. We are still working on alot of things and I too have to work on me. But in no way do I think I failed anywhere in my realtionships. I have done what was right and yes I was very young and I know why and understand why I missed up w/ first two. I was scared of being alone. I have a good size family and didn't want to be alone. I don't think God intends for anyone to be alone, but I'm not scared of it anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know I will always have someone w/ me and that is GOD. He will always be there for me and we will never let me down. I have filled the void in my heart where no man on earth could fill. I guess that is why I am ok with whatever happens in my life, cause I know he will make it better. H is'nt here to fill a void, he is here because I love him and he loves me and we want our M work and be stronger than it has ever been. (((((((Hugs to y G)))))))))) I hope you continue to grow stronger w/ yourself and you do have a purpose in this life and God has great plans for you. Keep your head up and smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You are a special person!
Sunny D

Here is a link to a treatment program for abusers. Reading their info may help some of you make some choices and get some info!

www.emergedv.com

I figured I should reply to this one, as I have been in the VIP program since 2001. It was asked if a marriage can ever be healed from abuse and survive? Well my counselors consider us 1 of the sucesses, but really don't agree with them because it is always an ongoing battle.
As for family counseling, I must add that in VIP, counseling is always separate, then when you are ready you go to group which is with other survivors of violence, of the same sex. The offenders go to Anger Management, which teaches them respectful ways to control themselves and act towards others.
Abuse is a learned reaction, so even if the marriage is healing and H&W are respecting each other, there are outside forces(such as abuser's family etc.) still causing ongoing problems, that is why it is always an uphill battle.
My husband's family is a classic example, major abuse of all type, our relationship was mainly control issues. Although my H & certain members of his family do get it, to others it is the only way they know how to communicate. We don't allow that disrespectful attitude any where around our family unit(pretty bad when a 3yr old child can see it).
There were 4 women in a group session, all had left their husbands of abuse, except 1, who was a widow, her comment was that she had definitely taken the harder road......

MNTB,

Thanks for the link to Emerge. I looked at it and it was pretty good. My H would never start to go to counseling. He thinks that no one could tell him how to save his marriage. He thinks that he is perfectly fine. He thinks that because he knows about his background he was not doomed to repeat it. That type of behavior is all that he's ever known, all that he's ever seen. i think his mental state is to do something to someone before it is done to him.

hE'S ALMOST LIKE A CHILD IN THOUGHT. I can not reach him and I am done trying. If he loved me like I deserved to be loved then he would not have done this to our family. Now that I think about it there have been so many times when people have told me about him cheating and I never had any proof or even really believed them. He has a way of saying it is everyone else's fault, not his. i am not sure that he ever loved me really or if he just saw an opportunity for life advancement which he did get from me.

I am not trying to brag just thinking out loud on some things that his friends would tell me early on in the M.

He has so many people fooled about him even me. I can not allow his actions and behavior to effect my kids and their livelihood.

I am slowly coming to know that I have done the right thing for myself, and the kids. He is not going to change because he doesn't know that he is the problem. At least he does not believe that he is.

I had peace in my home on last night: I received the letter from the courts about my Protection order hearing. He may have gotten his also. By the way I mailed it to OW's house since that is where he was staying. He swears that he does not live there anymore, but who the heck believes that! He did not call me or the kids so I hope that he has gotten the message. The kids have not even really asked to see or talk to their father. Oddly he spent so little real time with us that they don't even know the difference, because he was never really around them or at home that often anyway. ( sorry for the run-on)

I just want to say thanks again for all the new info. It is helping me to stay on the path that I need to be on - Living Happily!

JT

I did not mean to imply that counseling was not necessary. I completely agree that we did need it & it would have been so much more helpful.

It was over 8 years ago for us, even the A was about 7.5-8 yo. My H was probably on the 'fringe' of abusive behavior, hot tempered & jealous. He does come from a pretty normal, stable, 2 parent home w/ no history of abuse.

Also though, as a Christian, I don't want to discount the healing power of my Lord Jesus Christ. I think the 2 things go hand in hand. (therapy & a strong relationship w/ JC)

I used to think they were separate---I know better now.

The other thing is.......I think those who are getting abused can avoid some escalation when they realize the signs from the beginning & take action @ that moment. If things did ever escalate to a more 'provable' point then you call the law. I am all for prosecuting the offender of abuse. If we take it serious, others will take it serious & then the offender will be forced to take it serious.

I am not @ all saying the offended is responsible, in any way shape or form, only that when we have a healthy view of it---then we can take more control over ourselves to not allow bad behavior.

This is a very good topic. It is disheartening to hear that %90 of abusers (was that right?) will abuse again.

Could it be due to a lack of proper enforcement? Like women who do not choose to prosecute & the abuser is then allowed to freely move on to thier next victim?

Just wondering.

What I am finding interesting IRL is the more people (women) I speak to & find out they endured 'other' abuses as children as well! Which I think contributes to the mind frame of unhealthy boundaries & allowing certain behaviors that a healthy person would obviously view as inappropriate & wrong.

My H was healthy for me in other areas----and I do thank God that we were brought to a place in our lives that we chose to change for the better----to take our actions seriously, which usually happens ONCE the damage is already done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But I don't believe it is EVER too late to change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am sorry for those of you who are still caught in the middle of the whirlwind.

MentheBoyz,

Just read this. You are 100% correct, my H is mentally/verbally abusive to me. He is alos very passive aggressive. I never saw it at first but I am in counseling with a great lady and she is helping.

She pointed out a very interesting thing and my mouth about hit the floor because it home. When you are in an abusive relationship like this or when you are like me...I am having a difficult time explaining this so please bear with me. The victim (for lack of better word) is on the far right of a scale of normal. Your H is on the far left. For the victim it's a very odd or weird feeling coming into the middle. What I am talking about is control and asking for what you deserve or what is right. The reason it hit home for me is because many times I will want something but then H says no because this or that. I back down becuase I see his point of view but in reality it's just him controling me and my inabiltiy to be in the middle of that scale. I have no idea if any of this make sense or if I am explining it correct. Sorry.

I think you hit the head on the nail when you said that MB works for normal people. I have been wondering why I can't make it work and it's because of my H, he won't do the things he needs to do becuase he looses control and he can't take that.

As I said before, it's not the A or the OC that I can't get past, it's my H's inability to humble himself to do what's right for me and the M, even if it is uncomfortable for him.

Very good post MeNtheBoyz. Thanks.

Hi LUV,

You are so right and I feel that my H is in the same place as yours. He knows to some degree what is right but can't find it in himself or to humble himself enough to do what it takes becausse it looks or feels as though he is no longer in control. (sorry for the run on just had to get it all out)

So do these type of people ever change or do they just move on to the next. I agree with KT on C and faith in JC. They both are a must in our daily lives. I depend on him now and only him. My heart keeps telling me to slack off and give H some breathing room, but my head tells me that I have been doing that and nothing has changed only gotten worse. so I remind myself that God has to deal with him I can not. So I wake up every morning and go to bed every night praying for him, us our family and I keep moving toward a new life.

What God has for me is for me no one can change that and I realize that now more than ever. So if it is meant to be it will be. If not then I am prepared for the blessings to come. I will rise from the ashes of this A like a pheonix.

I have every faith in God now I must act/stand on that faith and all that he has promised me. To him I will be faithful!!

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

well I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I am still having difficulty with my H and this A. I have heard and always suspected that my H only M me for the money or what I could give him (bettering his social status and financial status). I suspected it but didn't want to believe it. I thought that he did love me. We have a family, home, business,and I thought a future. He has been cheating the entire time he was with me even before we M.

A chronic cheater does not ever really change do they? Do they even know how? He chooses to cheat and lie to me. He has disrespected me to no end. The funny or stupid thing is that I for some reason keep wanting to believe that he can change and that he does love me. Am I a fool! Some would say yes, heck I would say yes if it were happening to someone else.

I am torn at how someone could do such a thing. What did he really gain from all this? Will he get away with what he's done to us/me? I need help I am feeling like such a fool! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

This whole M has been nothing, meant nothing to him. This will be with me for the rest of my life, because even when the D goes through he will have my children interacting with his OC. Can I live with that I have to, but am I prepared to NO! I dont want to slight the child, but my children should have not been put in this situation - nor my stepson.

I can't seem to let it go. I am feeling worthless, used and abused. My love and good nature and giving spirit have been trampled on day after day after day.

What do you really ever know about the people you M. Do they ever really come around or do they just ry ro regain control over you. Is my H just trying to keep using me or dragging me through the mud. I watched these types on TV but never thought a smart, educated woman like me would ever get caught up in it.

My life is a soap opera!!

JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />