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KT: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sunny D
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hmmmmmmm....amazing. When pep is not around it seems you guys DOn't have a problem with me.....and say thank you for your thoughts NTMO.........She just riled everyone up here. You guys are going off her words to me......and putting WORDS into my mouth. I said almost eh exact thing sunnyd did but you guys can't see it coming from an ow and have to find fault...I see how it works now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NTMO....
If I think your posts are helpful to MARRIAGE BUILDING ... I will pay you compliments.
If I think your posts are harmful to MARRIAGE BUILDING .... I will debate your principles. (not your character which is none of my business)
If I can't understand what you mean when you post, I will say so.
If you post about off topic things, jokes; etc, I might choose to join in, choose to lurk, or choose to ignore.
Are you clear on that?
I said before, your past means zilch to me. Who are you today and what principles do YOU stand for today .... THAT is what is relevent.
Your past belongs to your conscience, as does mine. In other words, who cares? If today you stand for strong vital marriages, then we can cheer others on as a team. Because that is what is important to me.
If today you stand against adultery and speak pro-marriage, I will stand by you.
If we disagree, it means I disagree with what you say today not with anything you did years ago and now regret.
Today you are a woman. Today you make choices. Today you stand up for your beliefs. Today you work to take care of your family. You are these things, no matter what else you may have done. Same with me.
Today I stand up and shout ....
****MARRIAGE BUILDING FIRST****
What you post today is how I approach you.
If anyone has a problem with your posts it is because of what you said, not because of anything I said. If anyone has a problem with my posts it is because of what I said not because of anything you said.
If you would like to have a conversation where we discuss how to better improve MARRIAGES .... LET'S GET STARTED!
Isn't that the purpose you and I are here? To discuss MARRIAGE.
The discussion of "visitation" and "contact" and "OC support" are all moot issues, not ready for prime-time discussion --->until the MARRIAGE is back onto it's foundation.
There is nothing nothing to support the OC conversation/discussions until both partners are back 100% fully commited to the marriage and working as a team via respectful POJA.
To discuss these secondary topics with a BW whose marriage is falling apart I think borders on cruel. Her heart is breaking, her H is still running amuck, and some one talks to her about compassion for someone else's child while HER HOME is up in flames and verging on the edge of a total breakdown. That is way too much to ask a human heart.
"Think about the poor people who started the fire. They have problems too. Pay no attention to the fact that YOUR house is [i]ON FIRE and everything you've ever worked for is about to be destroyed! Instead, think about the other peoples' home, the flame-starters, coz they are unhappy too."[/i]
That is insanity!
We need to douse our own flames first, become stable and grounded before we can reach out to anyone much less the people who have done us harm.
To discuss these issues (visitation, et al) while the MARRIAGE foundation is crumbling .... is dumb. The FAMILY needs to be safe, secure, and healing from wounds before, BEFORE the topics of OC-related issues are at hand.
Pep (with love in my heart for ALL OF YOU because MY HOUSE is safe, secure, and happy, thanks to God) <small>[ August 28, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>
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*ktbunch*
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I like your straightforwardness..... and your spelling ain't bad neither.
Say what you mean and mean what you say .... and do it with gusto!
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
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I said almost eh exact thing sunnyd did but you guys can't see it coming from an ow and have to find fault...
Most of the time I cannot respond to Sunny's posts because most of the time I cannot figure out what exactly she is saying. If she said the same "exact" thing as you said (and I could understand that from her writing) I'd respond to her as well. But so far, I have trouble understanding her. I'm working on it. (Sunny, it's me, not you, my comprehension problem.)
I see how it works now.
You assume.
That is too bad, because non of you will grow and heal
You know this???
How do you know if someone else has the capacity to grow and heal?
I would never say this about you.
I believe you will grow and heal.
and go on with that kind of hate in you.
You know this too?
You can see inside the heart and soul of others? How?
At least I can say I can coexist with a bw and am big enough to say hey I was wrong........and baby.....where did I say the oc is the only one who is has rights????
Read my "house on fire" analogy.
Discussing rights of anyone outside one's family unit can only be done when the family of origin is safe and secure, standing on solid ground once again. THAT is the time any meaningful OC-related topic can be POJA'd. Before that time of equalibrium, chaos rules the decision-making for the most part. Peace must prevail in the home before (longterm) agreements about OC should be attempted.
Married people with both feet (both people with both feet) can make some pretty awesome decisions and face some pretty daunting problems with the team approach.
Until that time, I think OC discussions are a waste of emotional energy better spent on repairing the MARRIAGE .... which we ALL AGREE COMES FIRST.
And this is exactly what I mean.... MARRIAGE comes first on the timeline of recovery.
As if written on the refridgerator list:
First on "to do" list ----> "make our marriage solid and stable for ourselves and our kids."
This may take a year or more, depending on the pre-affair circumstances.
Other topics can wait.
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <small>[ August 28, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>
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*****edited by JustUss*****
To be frank, I am new here, and I'm here to read and learn from people who have thoughts, opinions and ideas to share. I need all the help I can get, I don't care WHO it comes from. If there are OM out there posting, I'd love to read what goes on in their head; and what roles they plan on taking with the OC. (If for anything, my own healing. I can't heal my marriage if I don't heal myself first, right? I need to take care of ME before I can take care of anyone else.)
Reading constant bickering and picking apart of words that others write to try to prove them wrong (and justify your own significance) is NOT why I am here.
Just stop the nit-picking please.
I appologize in advance to other readers if you find this post was inappropriate.
New Here *****edit********
****any questions or comments,,email me JustUss2@aol.com**** <small>[ August 29, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>
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WOW, and I thought these things didn't happen unless I was involved? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I think the point that Pep is making, is quite valid. NTMO and I have had our bouts too. But to say that PEP, a BW shouldn't be on this board, is wrong. I say that an OW is fine to post here, but they need to remember where they are at.
And for the record, if I went over to their board and posted (can you imagine the steam of the keys as I was deleted.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), I would be soundly and quickly removed. So, while I agree that this is an open board, I find that OW need to be a bit more carefull here. Their words can't hurt me, but some of our more hurting members need to be protected. I kind of thought that was my job!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
So, I agree with KT. Lets all calm down, but lets not also forget that if one is rattled, and she is a BW, she is certainly ok to post away here. I like her style actually.
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NTMO- you said
"As well SOME OF YOU and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE come over to our board and post and unless your trolling you are more than welcome"
I have come to your board most recently and Chud the moderator deletes me when I am doing NOTHING of the sort (your words above). I strictly stick to my personal story and to FACTS that no one there likes to hear. Marysway deleted me too unfairly according to your statement above.
If I said anything *REMOTELY*
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NTMO- you said
"As well SOME OF YOU and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE come over to our board and post and unless your trolling you are more than welcome"
I have come to your board most recently and Chud the moderator deletes me when I am doing NOTHING of the sort (your words above). I strictly stick to my personal story and to FACTS that no one there likes to hear. Marysway deleted me too unfairly according to your statement above.
If I said anything *REMOTELY* argumentative or opposing their's- DELETE! NTMO is getting bolder than would be allowed on THEIR board and it is irritating me that people are getting upset HERE-
OTHERWISE I could care less who posts- let them speak their peace and if it upsets you- don't read it. If it makes you mad as heck - maybe its GOOD to hash it out here w/OW as therapy!!! LOL! JUST making it known that her board will NOT tollerate such "opposing" opinions!! And CERTAINLY would LOVE to blast LynnG's posts with an oozie..ha!
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giovanna123, I never deleted you.......I don't have the power to delete you. In fact I don't think I really ever responded to most of your post and I don't think I trolled you over there either. In fact the only post where I really felt offensive to was when you said that most BW's when they get the child to there house will bath that child to get rid of the smell of ow....or something to that affect and still I did not respond to that. I was like OH WOW!!!!!!! You said you were stateing what you felt as the bw with oc etc., I can understand that. What started this whole thing was I was telling Genia what her husband may or maynot be feeling as a man a father and then I got flamed for it. So maybe YOU can understand since you say it happened to you over there how I feel about what I said and got flamed here? I meant no harm nor was I trying to inflick pain to Genia. Nor was I trying to make Genia go along with it....It just got totally out of hand. <small>[ August 29, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>
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LOL !
I am cracking up cause YOU are Marysway and I usually have to skim thru the boards so fast I dont notice certain things like your aks at the bottom! You were polite to me before and I have no recollection of recently- BUT the board you belong to and post on faithfully discredits me and treats me rudely or deletes non flaming posts-Maybe it was Joshmom who is a mod there who also deleted me??
Anyhoo- what I don't like is you calling me Pristine when my obvious member name here is Giovanna! I don't care one iota who knows any name I use on other boards, but what I don't like is you "revealing" my name without me using it here as a weak jab or something.
I'm not agreeing with you being here or not being here- I personally dont mind. Just sticking my nose in cause I had to strongly disagree for a moment...
Resume regular programming..sorry for the interruption!!
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I apoligize for that.......It was easier to spell. I'm not being sarcastic I'm being serious. I fixed it though. I just added the aKA tonight when you asked which one I was. Again sorry about the name mixup. I'm just the worlds worst speller and did not think......My bad.
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one more thing--
I do think OW and BS visiting or posting occasionally on one another's board is insightful. It can challenge your mind in a positive way - its good to debate! Unless or until it becomes rude or nasty or just plain evil should OW or BS be deleted or kicked off.
Either side of it should be ready and willing, though, to be challenged by many. I don't mind a bit.
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Originally posted by NewHere37:
Must you nit-pick everything this woman says?
No. I must not.
To be frank, I am new here,
Welcome
and I'm here to read and learn from people who have thoughts, opinions and ideas to share. I need all the help I can get, I don't care WHO it comes from.
The key word is "help"..... May I assume you are speaking of help with marriage building?
If there are OM out there posting, I'd love to read what goes on in their head; and what roles they plan on taking with the OC.
This (OM opinion) is useful to the marriage building process how? He is not the marriage partner.
(If for anything, my own healing. I can't heal my marriage if I don't heal myself first, right?
And you cannot heal your marriage until your H's opinion comes before the OM's opinion, right?
I need to take care of ME before I can take care of anyone else.)
And taking care of yourself means doing an assessment of your life, looking at your values, principles, your strengths and weaknesses .... not so much outward gazing, but inward gazing and repairing what is wrong.
I don't think any OM's thinking can help you fix yourself. OM, OW are by definition not "OK" at the moment , or they would not hold that title of "OP" gladly.
If you think of this (the affair) as an addiction .... you would not ask your fellow fallen addict for the way out of the addiction .... you'll need to go to the sober ones you know, and ask them how they found freedom from their addiction.
Reading your constant bickering and picking apart of words that others write to try to prove them wrong (and justify your own significance) is NOT why I am here.
I am significant, as are you. I have experience with rebuilding a marriage. We are fortunate to be 8 years recovered, and happier than ever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
And that is my motivation.
My "picking "(as you call it) is to disect advice which I think I detremental to a hurting BW. Although given with good intentions, this advice offers misdirection in my opinion, so I speak up freely, as my conscience directs. That is debating issues and topics, not picking.
Just stop the nit-picking please.
I will continue to offer my opinion. I welcome you opinion as well.
I appologize in advance to other readers if you find this post was inappropriate.
My opinion is nothing inappropriate was said.
And I don't care what your member number is.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
My best number is "8" ... the years of recovery (9 in December)
My other best number is "23" the number of years we're married.
Another great number is "1" the number of times my H and I have been married.
My least favorite number right now is "55" .... guess why? ..... (Hint: birthday cake)
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
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Originally posted by giovanna123: one more thing--
I do think OW and BS visiting or posting occasionally on one another's board is insightful. It can challenge your mind in a positive way - its good to debate!
In certain circumstances I agree.
Debating ethical and moral issues is way cool.
Debating various ways to solve problems in a marriage is way cool.
However, until the betrayed spouse is back on her/his feet emotionally .... I think he/she should be discouraged from engaging in these discussions with OP. Too much emotional fusion.
It is too confusing to debate in the middle of betrayal chaos, and one thing the betrayed has to deal with (in most cases) is OBSESSION about the OP.
And having the obsession about the OP use up all one's energy necessary for MARRIAGE BUILDING is counter-productive to the purpose and the goal of Marriage Building.
The OP opinions, motives, thoughts, feelings are ALL distractions .... to MARRIAGE BUILDING... one needs to focus on the MARRIAGE and away from outside distractions.
Once I found my way emotionally back into our marriage, I could care less about OW, her life, her marriage.... I wish her well. She (her thoughts and feelings) are NONE of my business. Mine are not her business. My H's are not her business.
Think of it like a garden. If you spend your time and energy going over to someone else's garden and pulling their weeds.... you garden will suffer neglect.
Water YOUR garden
Pull YOUR weeds.
Fertilize YOUR flowers.
Enjoy the beauty of what your efforts have brought you.
Until you have the knowledge and experience of growing a successful garden of your own, debating what should and should not be done is, an effort of distraction away from your own business.
In general, BS thinks WAY TOO MUCH about the OP, and I think it should be pointed out that "home is where the heart is" , and to refocus "home" .... and away from OP.
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <small>[ August 29, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>
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Pep
Agree
Amen
Agree
Amen!!
OW has not and never did have any role in my M. She was a fling of the past- a point of shame for H and if he doesn't think of, speak of, or try to remember his HUGE mistakes, I sure as heck am not going to be the one to bring her name or the memory of her to my lips or my M. She didn't play any role in the breakdown of my M - she was at the end of the ripple effect- and continues to play no part in our M.
But for those of us w/OC involved, the OP, while mattering not to me or hopefully most on this board-- they are going to be a [strange] part of the MM/BW's life. If there was not an OC involved in many of our lives in some way, even with NC- I certainly would not think of or engage in any convo with or regarding OW. Unfortunately many here have the luxory of OW being involved in thier M, though it should be in a very limited capacity. Thus having a respectful OW around can provoke *some* interesting/insightful topics. <small>[ August 29, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by giovanna123: <strong> BUT the board you belong to and post on faithfully discredits me and treats me rudely or deletes non flaming posts-Maybe it was Joshmom who is a mod there who also deleted me?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Giovanna, I deleted your post. And it says where your post used to be that I thought it was a double post. THAT was why it was deleted. Not because of content, it was a glitch with my computer that was showing posts twice.
I've been reading this and a couple of other threads with interest. I very rarely post here any more, and I rarely post at TOW any more. But I have to just add that NEVER has anyone that has come to the Childrens & Affairs board (that came in peace, so to speak) and offered a piece of advice to someone and been torn up one side and down the other like NTMO has. One person started it, and it was like the mob mentality - let's just get her. That would never be allowed on "our" board, and I have actually gotten in hot water for defending BW's that have come to post and gotten slammed by some regulars. I think the most rational post from anyone on this whole mess has been from KTBunch, asking people to simmer down, basically. But there seem to be some that just want to feul the fire. Yes, this is a marriagebuilders site. Am I in a marriage? No. Am I in an affair? Not any more - shoot me if I ever think of doing something THAT stupid again. Do I have a child as a result of that affair? Yes. On occasion, I am actually able to offer some help in child support or custody issues. I've gotten to know some BW's here and have the utmost respect for them. I've been around long enough to be happy for some, sad for others when things don't work out. I cried for one when she lost her twins.
Geez.. sorry, I always seem to make a short post long. But bottom line is - we're all human. Sometimes we have bad days. But to jump all over someone because she offered advice JUST BECAUSE SHE USED TO BE AN OW is just WRONG...
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Originally posted by JoshMom: But to jump all over someone because she offered advice JUST BECAUSE SHE USED TO BE AN OW is just WRONG...
I agree. Former status is unimportant. There are many FWW and FWH here on MB who give ~excellent~ pro marriage advice. I just ~love~ these people! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> They often give the more relevent advice
Good advice is good advice. Bad advice is bad advice.
Current ability to impart pro-marriage anti-affair advice is the only measure that matters.
I will continue to jump in and voice my opinion when I think the advice is harmful to marriage building. I will voice my opinion if I think someone is bringing in irrelevent topics .... things better left for discussion later on in the timeline ..... Later, when the marriage is back to a functional level.
The most useful advice for marriage building after an affair usually comes from successful re-builders. Some comes from people who were unable to save their marriage and ended up divorced. Their wisdom oft takes the "Don't make these mistakes like I did " form.
It is not useful to consider OP thoughts and feelings while a couple is MARRIAGE BUILDING, because these are irrelevent to the principles germain to a healthy marriage. If OP had the skills to be in a healthy relationship, they would not be OP.
That is not to say that FOP (unrelated to that marriage) cannot voice helpful advice on this forum, I am saying "THE OP" who was destructive to that particular marriage .... that OP is gone *poof* from the planet. "THE OP's" feelings, thoughts, etc are not included in MARRIAGE building.
Keeping outsiders ~outside~ is how to rebuild. From the inside.
Pep <small>[ August 29, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>
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Originally posted by giovanna123:
OW has not and never did have any role in my M. She was a fling of the past- a point of shame for H and if he doesn't think of, speak of, or try to remember his HUGE mistakes, I sure as heck am not going to be the one to bring her name or the memory of her to my lips or my M. She didn't play any role in the breakdown of my M - she was at the end of the ripple effect- and continues to play no part in our M.
Me too!
Us too!
double ditto ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
But for those of us w/OC involved, the OP, while mattering not to me or hopefully most on this board-- they are going to be a [strange] part of the MM/BW's life. If there was not an OC involved in many of our lives in some way, even with NC- I certainly would not think of or engage in any convo with or regarding OW. Unfortunately many here have the luxory of OW being involved in thier M, though it should be in a very limited capacity. Thus having a respectful OW around can provoke *some* interesting/insightful topics.
Agree 100%
When the damaged M is back on track, then it becomes time to discuss "visitation" "OC" "CS" .... and all that jazz.
Fix the foundation first.... then discuss adding new carpeting to the dining room. Don't carpet over damaged foundation!
XOXO
Pep
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Giovanna....
Was it Aesop who wrote the fable about
"don't invite the fox into the henhouse"
???????
I am trying to remember the source of that fable.
Pep <small>[ August 29, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>
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