My first post to the forums was was a very long one in the Divorcing board. I think I could use the advice of anyone who hangs out on this board, too.

Mods, if linking to a thread like this is not OK, please accept my apology and feel free to delete this post.

Dear Lost,

I'm not sure how widely accepted your post will be here in regards to what you are asking. My response may not be something you want to hear but I'm not attacking you, just responding. In your post, you said at the very end that you wish she would have waited just a little longer so you could have cut ties with the OW. Well I'm sorry to say this but your wife already did that once and through counseling and re-building the marriage, you went and did it again. How many times and how long do you want to make your innocent wife keep suffering and waiting for you to find yourself? (Please take no offense to that) You were very lucky that she stuck through it with you in the beginning and try and work things out. You were very lucky to have her come home early on the day you wanted to take your life. But I guess what I see is someone who has no idea what path they want in life. I wish for one day, the wandering spouses could feel the pain their other half feels when they found out about the affair. I wish they could feel the insecurity and the untrust they fight with daily in the beginning stages of trying to repair themselves from an affair. I see so many WS's saying I wish she/he would have just tried once more or this or that, but it isn't that easy. Having to deal with DDAY once it Hell itself but trying to rebuild and then having your WS do it over again it something beyond hell itself.
Try for a moment and close your eyes. Think of your wife (when you were utterly in love with her and she could do nothing wrong). Think of how in love with her you were and that everything she did just made you smile. Then think about you coming home one day to your wife telling you she was sleeping with someone else and she was pregnant. How easy do you think that would be?
As for your family, your two little girls are the most important thing right now. These innocent bystanders do not deserve and never asked to be standing on the sidelines of the "Mommy and Daddy" figthing hour. Being so young too, they are VERY influential. With your wife filing for divorce, you need to realize that that part of your life is coming to a close yet your daugthers will always be your daugthers NO MATTER WHAT! They will always need you in their lives and this is the perfect time to show them that even though Mom and Dad aren't living in the same house, that doesn't mean that you dont' love them any less.
Now for the OW, If you read my signature, I am a BW with a H would got the OW pregnant. She recently had the OC and we are dealing with her crazy antics daily. I don't really have much to say with OW's but you need to make a decision in that department too. Either be there or NOT. If you chose not, you need to make that clear. Leading people to believe one thing for one minute and another thing another minute is a horrid thing to do. Make your decisions crytal clear with her so if you chose not to be there, she isn't being lead on a rollercoaster that lasts a very long time.
As for yourself, suicide imo, is the most selfish thing one can do. I've been there at that point when I was younger dealing with family issues and I look back at it and realize, what would it accomplish. Yes, you are gone and painfree but you leave many people wondering and asking themselves why. That is the easy way out. You would leave behind a wife that is asking what could I have done and all that but honestly, she did EVERYTHING she could so she should not live with that burden that she herself did not ask for. You would leave behind two daugthers to grow up without a father and you would leave your family. Why would you want to leave this earth with everyone hurting? Yes, when someone passes, it is devastating but when someone commits suicides, it leaves a mountain of unanswered questions for those who shouldn't be plagued with such hurt.
This board is very helpful, you just have to keep an open mind. Good Luck to you. If I offended you in any way, I am sorry but I just felt the need to respond. There is always a light at the end of the tunnel, even if the tunnel seems never ending!

I just read your lengthy post, and let me tell you I can completely relate to it. Except I may be your wife in this matter. My H and I are in a very similar situation at the moment. The affair was a year ago, and I recently found out there have been about 25 phone calls in the last week between the two of them. When confronted on the issue, he lied (until he knew I had cell phone records). I brought up divorce as I am very tired and this whole process has been extremely draining on me. While I know he may be depressed, I also am very depressed and need to make sure I don't lose sight of myself through all of this. You're wife may be feeling these same issues. She's trying to protect herself and her children as best she knows how. H thinks we could divorce amicablly and I hope that we can. I consulted w/ several lawyers yesterday and decided to go w/ one. H says he will split the cost and we will write up an agreement we both can live with. I have what I consider to be non-negotiable factors. Even though I have consulted lawyers regarding divorce and I am ready to file, I have not given up hope for a reconcilliation. I do however have a list of demands for a reconcilliaton, the number one being that he breaks of contact w/ XOW except in my prescence and the contact should only be about OC. He hasn't agreed to this in the past, and she calls him/e-mails him at work. While he once said it was just a sexual relationship, he is now telling me he thinks he has feelings for her. I can relate to your wife's views because I felt we were so much further in recovery than we obviously are. I don't know if your wife has truly given up on you, as much as she is trying to protect herself. She feels very betrayed, and that she can not trust you. Have you tried to talk to her about your feelings now that she has talked to lawyers? I am awake because I can't sleep either. I left H a message this morning saying that I contacted lawyers on Friday and if he feels we can discuss an agreement and come up w/ an amicable decision for both of us, we can split the cost. If he does not contact me this weekend, or we can't come to some agreements, then I will go to a the lawyer I've selected and file next week on my own. I am pregnant at the moment and I am wanting to protect my child. If XOW files for CS first, she is entitled to more. I no longer can sit around and wait for H to make up his mind.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is I feel for you because you seem really torn about the situation. Your wife is also probably very torn. Are you going to counseling? If not I reccomend it. I was going to IC and Couples counseling for about 5 months after Dday. I am about to call my counselor to set up another appointment. I also would suggest you try to talk to your wife to see if you can communicate a little more effectively. Ask her what she is feeling/wanting right now.

I say give your wife this website. She needs the help here more than you do.

Lost,

Instead of thinking your wife was wrong to bring a lawyer into to this mess. You need to realize she's afraid, she has children to think about and she does not know you. You have turned into someone she doesn't know. The man she used to love wouldn't have done this to her. You at this point cannot stop seeing OW imagine the pain your wife endures daily knowing this lady is carrying your child. You made a step in the right decision you are seeking help from others who have been in you or your wife shoes. If you really want your marriage you need to do whatever it takes to win your wife back. She may be receptive to visitation with OC! I do not understand why OW would hide her miscarriage and why you wouldn't protect your family by using protection. In your post you said she undermined your attempts at NC, she has 3 small children under the age of 5. Did she think having a child by you would keep you? I just do not understand why a woman would purposely get pregnant by a man that keeps going back to his wife. You admit you are not ready to commit to anyone, you may be a sex addict but that does not make your current actions right. Get help even if your marriage ends you have to be there for the children you have created. Good luck, I hope you keep praying even if your wife decides this is it you have to move forward with life what will suicide do except leave your wife with two children to raise alone and OW one. One last thing, are you sure OW was not sleeping with her husband too? No matter what path you take I would take a DNA test to make sure there was no break up sex between OW and her H.

Unsure

I read your post and it seems to me that you only talk about yourself and what this has done to you.
What about all the pain and suffering you have caused your wife and your children.
You talk about commiting suicide. That is an escape. An escape so you wouldnt have to deal with the mess you created. That would sure be fair to your wife and children and the rest of your family wouldnt it?
You had several affairs during the course of your marraige. you told your wife about it. Decided you were a changed man. She believed you, then you turned around and did it again.
Do you really think your wife should wait awhile to see if you can cut the ties to your OW? I dont think so.
She needs to do what is best for Herself and your children. She needs to put herself and your children first. Something you did not do.
I dont believe you can truly understand the pain of this type of betrayal unless you have lived it.
maybe if you start putting your wife and children before yourself, it would change things.

Lost? What exactly are you hoping to gain from your membership & posting here on this site?
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You said yourself that you are not capable of making decisions right now until you can choose to be alone...(something to that affect, sorry, not a direct quote)I don't really get that but whatever...

SO why are you SO upset @ your W making the decisions that YOU claim you are not capable of making?

You should be THANKING your W for standing up to protect YOUR KIDS & herself. Thank her for being STRONG & not a pitiful whiny woman.

If she came here the FIRST thing we would have done was told her to get an attorney, a GOOD one, to set up financial support for her kids & herself.

Are you aware that in most states, the biggest chunk of CS goes to whoever files first? YOUR W is making sure that YOUR kids are financially set FIRST. Otherwise, OW would be getting the biggest chunk & the children of your marraige would only be getting the left overs.

I don't buy into all the psycho-babble personally. You should be PROUD of the strong W you have, the W that you have taken for granted on numerous occasions.

Imagine that your daughter was being treated by her H the way you have treated her W....I doubt that you would be advising her to be so forgiving. Be honest.

I agree w/ the other poster....tell your W to join this forum so we can offer her the support that she so desperately needs & deserves & maybe your marriage will survive this.

I will be the first to tell you that a marraige CAN survive infidelity, lying & dishonest spouses, but ONLY when & if the WS is willing to STOP the A, (which means NC, of any kind EVER) and put the effort necessary to make the marraige a PRIORITY.

NOT yourself, NOT your brain, NOT your emotions, NOT your weknesses but your MARRIAGE, FIRST. That means doing whatever it takes to repair it.

Read up on EN, Radical honesty, POJA & I strongly suggest, no, urge you to call the Harleys persoanlly & start counseling w/ them.

The Harley's are a great place to strat to get yoru marriage back.if indeed that i sreally what you want.

sincerely,
kt

<small>[ February 12, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Hurt5-04, thanks very much for your response. I took no offense. It's very helpful for me to hear the "third-party" perspective of people like you; that's what I hoped to gather here.

I've thought about what if she had done to me everything I've done to her, and it's a very black place, almost unimaginable. It's the kind of thinking that has led me to utter despair and honestly suicidal thoughts. I am resolved that suicide will never be an issue again, and I've put in place some mechanisms to ensure that it doesn't. The main thing that has and would bring me back from that place is what you describe -- the incredible, unreconcilable pain it would bring to my children and friends and family, who love me whether or not they hate what I've done.

All that to say, I really don't blame her for filing for divorce. With my head. Emotionally, well, that's the stuff I'm working on -- aligning my thoughts and emotions and not letting the emotions rule.

I'm working hard to keep making progress on myself without doing more harm to anyone else, either her (through more outbursts and unpredictablility) or the children (through a guilt-induced absence from regular visits). A lot of my pain during the sleepless night of that post related to just that -- my STBXW and I had previously agreed to a very liberal, as-much-as-possible visitation schedule, but she'd suddenly changed gears to every other weekend. I wish I could say it's all about the girls, but I physically ache for them when I haven't seen them for a few days -- four days seems to be the threshhold for very strong emotional responses to missing them. I absolutely don't want this to hurt them more than it has to, and I never want them to experience any of the rejection or longing that I did for my father after my parents' divorce when I was eight.

We talked to them Saturday morning, and we all cried a lot (first time they've seen me cry, let alone bawl like I did). All we told them was that I wasn't going to be coming home -- that Mom and Dad just couldn't work it out -- and I wouldn't be able to see them very much, but it wasn't me choosing to not see them more often. That none of this was their fault, and that they can and should call me anytime they want, day or night, even if they have nothing to say but "hi, I miss you."

As for the OW, I do feel like I'm digging myself a hole by not just cutting off all contact. It's hard primarily because we do still work together (I'm looking for a new job, and apparently so is she). I have told her I'm making no promises, and she seems to get what I'm trying to accomplish through therapy and being alone, but I suspect she may just be waiting in the wings, at some level hoping I just fail at it and fall into her arms and help her raise the baby. In the face of the emotion of the last few days, my impulses would certainly draw me there, though I firmly believe I'm no good to any woman until I complete the mastery of my emotions I'm dedicated to build for myself.

Again, your response was very helpful, and I thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Wife30, thanks for responding. I feel very much for your situation, especially with the coming baby (my OC is also due in August). With my head, and with a little sleep and time, I do realize that she is doing what she needs to do. She's by nature very averse to uncertainty and given the circumstances has no basis to trust anything I promise related to CS or anything else, even if I know I'd never do anything to further jeopardize the financial stability of my kids' household like withhold support. I went through that with my own dad after my parents' divorce.

I am going to counseling weekly, and I'm truly trying everything I can to fix myself. Whatever my wife's faults, I know I brought everything I'm feeling onto myself. It's the old fears and feelings of rejection that lead me to respond in anger, like I have throughout my life, and I want to correct that, whatever happens.

I have talked to her about both my fears of the escalation with lawyers, as well as my growing certainty that once I'm "better" I would want to try to restore my marriage. She is ambivalent about the lawyers, and as far as any hope of reconciliation has said it would take years and signs of real change, which she hasn't seen. The reason she doesn't see me working on this is that I've chosen for now to try to keep emotional distance, out of fear that my old fears will lead me prematurely to promises that require skills I don't yet have (but will someday hopefully soon). Everything about talking to her right now is so hard, it's difficult to do without doing more damage, and I definitely am tired of hurting her. In addition, the lawyers are recommending we do not talk except about visitation.

Thanks again for your time responding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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inanutshell, I and the friend who pointed me to this site have told her about it many times. I agree it would help her a lot, whatever happens. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Unsure, lots of good insight in your post as well as questions with no reasonable answers (like why no protection... I ask myself every day now, of course).

The problem with doing whatever it takes to win my wife back, if that's what could ever happen, is that I feel like this is the first step -- getting to the root of my bad impulses. Whether it's "addiction" or not, my impulse control problems related to sex, affection, spending etc. share a lot of those similarities. To be clear, I don't use the word "addict" in any way to minimize my responsibility for what I've done. I knew the right thing to do every time, and repeatedly made choices against my values. Until I can master that part of my life, I'll never be happy even alone and certainly could never be a decent partner for any woman.

The pregnancy angle with the OW is troubling. In 2003, my STBXW had an ablation and tubal ligation. Though I told her she should do whatever she needed to do, I very much wanted to have one more child. The OW knows all that, and I know she believes I would never turn my back on her baby. That doesn't explain why I didn't take my own precautions. More bad impulses, actions taken without realistic thought given to them. There's no excuse.

There will be a paternity test regardless of what happens, to settle immediately any uncertainty for both her STBXH and me. Thanks again for your response. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Tylorsstepmom, the extent to which I'm only talking about myself may be a reflection of the emotions I was experiencing at the time -- raw rejection and fear and pain. I struggle daily with everything I have done to my STBXW and children, none of whom deserved what they're now forced to go through.

I realized after I blew it again that there was more to my problems than just deciding to be different. I need to go much, much deeper, and pull the weed out by the root. That's going to take time, and time doesn't seem to be on my side. In the meantime, with my "head" I truly do understand why my STBXW had to do this -- in fact I told her she should when we were discussing everything more amicably. It just stirs up a lot of pain, pain I hope to hone in on in therapy to learn to master my emotions.

If I had put my wife and children and values first, ahead of my own immediate emotional desires, none of this would have happened. That's the kind of man I aspire to be, whether or not my marriage can be saved. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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ktbunch, thanks for the straight talk. To try to clarify, by saying I need to be able to choose to be alone, I mean that I can't just choose one woman or another, this relationship or that one. I need to be emotionally able to say neither one is right to be able to choose one, otherwise I'm just continuing to seek ways to satisfy my own emotional emptiness and neediness.

I truly do appreciate my STBXW's character and strength. The emotions it stirs in me must be addressed and handled healthily, and not in my typical ways of "I'll go buy something" or "I'm going to get drunk" or "I'll say whatever my W wants to hear to make her accept me again" or "the OW will make me feel better."

The way the lawyers were abruptly introduced to the situation took me off guard. We'd come to agreement on most aspects of support, division of assets and bills, and visitation, and I suddenly felt like that was all swept away. Do I blame her for not trusting me at all? With my head, I do not. More than anything, the strict new limitations on my ability to see the kids is terribly painful; my kids and I have great relationships, and I miss them horribly, even physically, when I'm away from them for more than a few days. I thought she understood that and agreed that it was best for the kids to see me a lot, and that seems at best up in the air now. It's terrifying.

I would not advise my daughter to stay with a man like me, and in fact I advised my wife to leave me. It's the emotional fallout of that that I need to navigate wisely and not according to the same old way I've always done things.

As for the psycho-babble, I'm sure you aren't alone. All I know is, I've grown a lot in the past month in intensive therapy, and I've opened a lot of doors and made a lot of connections between all the bad decisions I've made in the face of emotional impulses. They've led to nothing but pain and debt and regret for years. I need to grow up a lot emotionally and learn to master them, and I think I'm on the right track.

As I mentioned above, I and others have strongly recommended this forum and site to my STBXW, and I hope she avails herself of the help here. What do I hope to accomplish here? I don't exactly know. It's a good place to just upload my thoughts and feelings about this and solicit responses from people who've been through similar circumstances. I don't seek sympathy or congratulations. I'm in a process of really trying to screw my head on top of my heart and start making decisions I don't have to regret for once when faced with emotional situations. The fact that I believe I will want to save my marriage means I have to do this first -- understand my weakness to all my emotions, and learn to master them. I already tried to just decide to fix things, and I totally blew it. I need to fix myself and bring a healthy person to any future relationship, whether with my wife or someone else.

Thanks very much for responding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Lost, please get the book After the Affair by Janis Abram Spring. It's 10.50 at amazon.com

You strike me as a fellow who might really benefit by it. There are meaty exercises and guidelines in it for BOTH the marriage partners and the affair partner is not treated any worse than the hurt partner.

1) you're right that you can't do right by any woman until you unscrew your ways. However,

2)I think both Abram-spring and Dr. Harley would say you should try longer at your marriage before you separate and divorce. Abram-spring specifically recommends staying together for a year or two before deciding if you must D (and I agree, what it does to the kids SUCKS!!). But that's a year or two providing you quit the A...

Readthat book.
Good luck,
J
6y recovery and glad I stayed.

Lost, if I didn't know better I'd say you were my H!! He went through the same emotional turmoil that you are going through. His latest affair with a MOW produced an OC, wasn't his first affair by any means (although I didn't find out about all the others until the lastest came to head), he witnessed his mother's infidelities growing up, he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child, etc.etc.etc. I think in our situation it was my threat of divorce and the OW NOT leaving her H and children that made him open his eyes to see that he was definitely going to be left alone if he continued making the choices he was making. It is up to you to change you. Nobody else can do it. You have to do it yourself and you have to prove to yourself (and your wife) that you will be good husband, a good father, a good role model for your children. Please stop feeling sorry for yourself and divert some of that energy into fixing your life.

Lost,
First of all, please tell your W about this site, specially about this board ... it will be a lot of help for her (and hopefully you too)... it seems to me that she has her head in the right place and is a very strong woman ...

You wanting to talk about what you're going through - good ... not all of our WS are willing to do that so freely (even though you might come out as a little selfish just talking about you and excluding what you understand about your wife's feelings) ... keep doing IC as much as you can afford. Read After the Affair and Surviving an Affair ... read everything you can on this website and the stories of the people in this board. Try to identify your wife's feelings and your own feelings and the hurt of everyone involved ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told both my wife and the OW that I was not prepared to make any decisions about those relationships, that they were both on hold, and that I was making no promises. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... a story too familiar ... I understand that you don't want to make promises to either one of them ... and you're being honest ... but you saying that they are on hold ... what you are really saying is 'just wait for me ... I don't know with which one of you I want to stay but it might be either one of you ... so just wait for me and give me all the time in the world ... keep hanging out ... I'm not making any promises but it might be any of you ...'

Believe it or not, this is called fence-sitting ... and even when you have the good intentions of not hurting them anymore ... you're doing exactly the opposite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
You are asking your wife to sacrifice herself and her life to see if you may want to come back or not ... not fair ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was stunned by what I perceived as the hostility of the act -- not in her tone, but in bringing in lawyers, racking up expenses to split up what amounts to negative net worth. Though I can understand her total lack of trust in me, it seemed foolish and wasteful and divisive to my relationship with the children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see so much of myself in this situation that it hurts ...
My story
Worst Thanksgiving Ever
The end
Recovery?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> my STBXW and I had previously agreed to a very liberal, as-much-as-possible visitation schedule, but she'd suddenly changed gears to every other weekend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you really want to reconcile with her, even after you are divorced (if that's the path you will follow) ...your W may agree to a more liberal visitation schedule ... but you need to understand that she is protecting your children from the pain of seeing you as much as possible and seeing you leave them everytime ...

It killed me, no correction ... it still hurts everytime WxH goes to visit DD and he leaves ... everytime he leaves I feel he is leaving us again ...
and I can not let him back and hurt our daughter too ... right now she is too little to understand ... she only knows that her daddy comes through the door and leaves through the door ... she doens't know better ... I need to protect her from the pain of us being back together again and that because he still is not sure of what he wants, that she will get hurt in the process ...

... it is sad, but I can see you two getting divorced and you saying 'that's what she wanted' ... leaving all the responsibilities again on her shoulders ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have told her I'm making no promises, and she seems to get what I'm trying to accomplish through therapy and being alone, but I suspect she may just be waiting in the wings, at some level hoping I just fail at it and fall into her arms and help her raise the baby. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!!! That's what she's doing ... because that's what you are telling her!!! ... you told her to hold on ... she is holding on ... waiting for you to leave your wife and go with her ...
Are you living with OW ?
Please!!! learn from all the stories here ... don't put your W through more pain!
If you need time for yourself ... it should be for yourself ... not to be with both of them ... you need to be clear with both of them ...

What is it that you want? Do you want to work on yourself? Do you want to save your marriage? Do you want to be with MOW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and as far as any hope of reconciliation has said it would take years and signs of real change, which she hasn't seen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your W is totally right!!!!
Doing things in the moment, lead to mistakes, which lead to more pain ... for your Wife ...
And even if you try to work things out your way with your Wife right now, when OC is born, everything will go down again, everything will change again ... because you are going to have feelings for OC, because you are going to feel more guilt and be more confused on what you want ...
read, read, read, counseling, counseling, counseling ... don't follow the path that almost every WS goes through: moving in with OP, finding out that's not what you wanted, trying to get back to BS, feeling more confused ...
It is your wife and your kids the ones that are going to suffer the most with all your 'confusion' ...
Your story seems too familiar to me that I can feel ... and can tell you what is going to happen next <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Mily ]</small>

Hi Jenny, thanks for responding.

Actually, my wife bought that book during our brief reconciliation last fall, and I've read most of it. There's a lot of good information in there that I've tried to build on in everything I'm doing now. We both thought the section on "relapse" seemed very insightful... unfortunately. I don't currently have my own copy, though.

As for staying together, as I've indicated it's what I had been working toward. What I'd hoped to do was to use time alone -- I'm living with my sister and her husband in their extra room, bless their hearts -- to "break" the negative emotional ties to both women and work on my own emotional baggage from the past. To be healthy emotionally, to not rely so heavily on the approbation and validation of another person to value myself. I really think that is the root of my problem, and I am striving to fix that through weekly and semi-weekly therapy and lots of journaling.

Unfortunately, if there could have been hope, "breaking the ties" is not a good place for my wife to be when she's been so wounded, and seeing no promises or sign from me that I'm ready to dig in my heels for this marriage (which I'm not yet, not the right way!), she has decided enough is enough, and she needs to take a stand for herself. My head gets that and even respects that decision. It's the broken part of me that is suffering so much about it, hurting over the loss of all our dreams and potential because of what I've done, and now never having a chance to make things right.

Michele, thanks for your response. I can definitely relate to the fear of being left alone. It was during my time in the hospital that I realized that it was that fear (with other emotions) that was pushing me into decisions, instead of my values. That's why I decided to try to separate myself from both women, as best I could, to get to a place where I could be OK being alone, instead of feeling like it had to be one or the other (or God forbid a third woman). I don't know any better way to work on changing myself than walking this journey I started last month, and my whole intent is to be a better man with healthier control over my emotions when it's done. Unfortunately, along the way, I have to accept that other people who've been affected so painfully by what I've done must make their own assessment of the situation and decide what's best for them.

Your advice about self-pity is well taken, and I know I'm prone to it. I do believe that most of the time, I am keeping my focus on the work I'm doing in therapy. Thanks again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Mily, thanks for your response (and for checking up on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). It's nice to feel welcome here, even through it all. I think this is an amazing site and forum, and believe me, I and others have recommended it strongly to my STBXW -- I think it can help her no matter what happens.

I hear you about fence-sitting, and though I believed I was sincere in saying to her, "do whatever you need to do," my strong response to her filing clearly shows that I was emotionally unprepared and was hoping deep down for more time. I think I even hoped that if she filed, it would just be sort of setting the clock (there's a six-month wait before the divorce can be final), and that we'd have time to lick our wounds, I'd work on myself, and we'd just see in a couple months. That is absolutely not what she wants to do. We had a discussion about our feelings and what's going on earlier this week (likely our last, because with her complaint, I found there was a restraining order, to my surprise). Before I moved out, we had talked about using the six months as a pseudo-waiting period, to be open to reevaluating where everything stood before it was final. She was clear that that is no longer the case, and that was very hard to hear. I don't blame her for doing it -- I can't imagine how I'd respond in her position, but surely not with the grace and character she's shown up to now. That doesn't diminish the pain, which is just very hard to face while I feel like emotionally I'm riding this new bike with training wheels and people holding me up.

Dealing with visitation and custody is going to be very hard for both of us. We have both tried so hard to shelter them from all this, but that is of course impossible now and will soon get even harder for them. I am working to put my own bad, selfish instincts aside and work to really put their interest first going forward, and that means being there every time I say I will and as much as I can, and to always be available to them whenever they reach out to me. I worry about how her family will portray me -- to them, where divorce is virtually unheard of, my broken family as a child always colored me as "damaged goods."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ... it is sad, but I can see you two getting divorced and you saying 'that's what she wanted' ... leaving all the responsibilities again on her shoulders ...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...it's like you read my mind. To the degree that I need to think about being called out like this to respond better. Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What do I truly want? To be alone for now. I don't believe I'm fit for a relationship with anyone until I'm better at knowing myself and heading off my bad old emotional patterns before they blow up. Once I master that, knowing what I value, I expect I will wish I'd had the chance to do every step and move heaven and earth to fix my marriage, to right the wrongs and help her heal the pain I've caused. That is not going to happen, and I'm just hurting over the loss of the opportunity and promise of finally having a real equal relationship with my W... my STBXW.

I totally want to avoid running to OW. That's not good for her or the baby. What I felt I needed time to do was get emotionally straight enough to be able to ride out the birth of the baby without reaching out to her, to be able to cut the ties completely and be ready to live the rest of my life OK with that decision. I'm not there yet. I wanted to be. It's too late. In my heart of hearts, I wasn't confused. I just didn't see how I could approach this the right way without breaking myself into pieces and rebuilding myself emotionally. Now, honestly, I feel like I'm left in a situation where I don't know why I should cut the ties. My marriage is over, flat-out, it's what my W wants. (Oh my God, I said it again! I really am going to think about that.) It's a different ball game. I'm not any more prepared for a relationship with OW or the OC, but the way things have developed, I'm just not sure I have any reason to burn that bridge now. For my W, I was willing to -- but I had to get there emotionally first. Now I just don't know.

Believe me, my therapy is highly valued time, and I don't care what it costs me. (I flexed a ton of money this year for this very reason. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But it's not marriage counseling, and it can't be -- my therapist neither encourages nor discourages reconciliation, but rather working on my emotional mess, my stupid behavior and my bad decisions.

Again, thank you so much for responding.

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Lost71 ]</small>

Lost---You really ARE lost!

Listen Man, what you are doing is SELFISH-NESS (me, me, me) mascarading as "finding myself and correcting my defects." Defects are part of our humanity, and you will NEVER fix them all.

You will spare no expense to "fix yourself"!Meanwhile, you are ruining others' lives!

Don't get me wrong--I am ALL FOR counseling!!!!!! I had 2 years of counseling early in adulthood and many times since.

But all that psychobabble is not an acceptable EXCUSE for destroying your marriage and your poor children while you--hello?--"find yourself" or "get healthy"!

Find your *ss and go HOME where you belong. Your wife and you can find yourselves together.

Maybe your kids will thank you someday.

Jenny---------I could not have said it better-obviously because I didn't. LOL

But it was what I was thinking while reading lost's latest.

I agree that that finding yoruself nonsense is just that!

Did you know where you were when you were cheating on your W?

STOP putting it on your W---that SHE wants the D. I bet what she REALLY wants is for YOU to stand up--like a MAN & win her back! CHOOSE dang it!!!!!! YOU are really the one who wants a D so that YOU can go w/ OW & blame it on W.

Forget about OW---you made a VOW to your W & there was nothing in IT about 'taking a break' from your marriage to find yourself!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If you WANT to be married & cared about your kids so much---you'd get your butt HOME where it belongs!!!!!!!

Find a MARRIAGE COUNSELOR who is PRO-marraige (beleive it or not, some aren't) & start counseling WITH your W!!!!!!! OF course your current counselor LOVES you-----you are paying them to give you all these excuses for your behavior & you are ruining LIVES here----your kids @ the very least.

Come on man!!!!!! Quit jerking everyone around & step up!!!!!

Once you got married & then had kids---your luxury of taking time off to find yourself LEFT! YOUR kids do not have time to wait for YOU to 'find yourself' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> they need you NOW! Not in 6 mos., not in 4 years, not when they are 18, they need you NOW!

Think about someone OTHER than yourself----you've been doing that long enough & NOW look where THAT got you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

kt

kt and Jenny, thanks for responding.

I may have mischaracterized my therapist's view on our reconciliation. She has offered more than once to see us both, from time to time, to try to open doors now that we've lost the counsel of our VERY pro-marriage pastor who'd helped us so much (he was summarily fired in a very sudden church reorganization, unrelated to his excellent pastoral talents).

Honestly, I don't know how else to say what I've already said. Me leaving was my doctor's idea and my wife's idea. I am not welcome there -- the pain is too intense for her right now. She is fed up after (1) a year of hell with me and the OW and (2) the growing pain over my admissions of brief adultery in the past. I don't blame her at all for that. By all accounts, up to now she has borne it all with more grace than anyone could believe. She's had enough.

She has flat out said I am not welcome at home. The trust is shattered, destroyed... there is nothing I could say or do in the near future that she could put her faith in. Her words. When I went home last August, I was honestly and fully resolved that that was where I belonged and I'd do whatever it took. I accepted my fault and her pain, I quickly learned to let her express her pain in depth without being defensive, and I earnestly invested in IC and MC. But I blew it two months later. I had to face the horrible fact that my emotional garbage was somehow still able to overpower my resolve and values, and it was a crushing and nearly hopeless thing to see at first.

I now firmly believe that to prevent that from happening again, I'd need to master those emotions. I'm not seeking a vacation or a bachelor life. I hate being alone like this. I would have preferred to work on this together, even if it meant me living in the basement for the time being. I now spend most of my time alone in my room at my sister's house journaling and reflecting (when I'm not at the coffee shop using the free wireless access like this morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I had left home with the intent of steeling myself to break off all contact with OW and OC, and believe it or not was nearly there when the divorce was filed.

The weight of my vow is tremendous. In my mind, for better or worse includes times like these. I didn't see taking time for us to be apart as a holiday, but a necessary period for both of us to regroup while I learned some ways to bring a "better" me to the marriage, to really be able to kill the problems at the root and not just rush in with promises I wasn't equipped to live up to. I thought I was ready to face all her pain last fall. I wasn't. This time, I wanted to be, once and for all.

I did not know "where I was" when I was chose to be with the other woman. I've spent many, many hours thinking about it. Both times the crucial failure of judgment was made and the affair ignited, I honestly felt like an observer. Like there was someone in me watching it happen, saying "what the &$*# are you doing? STOP!" -- and then feeling like there was no putting the toothpaste back in the tube once it was out. Please understand, I don't say that in any way to minimize my responsibility for my actions -- it's an honest description of my state of mind at those times.

My STBXW is completely unreceptive to any gestures of reconciliation at all, and even more so to the idea of me coming home. In addition, with the restraining order in place, I have no legal right to even approach a discussion of the subject -- I simply can't risk a violation of that court order by doing anything that could be interpreted as infringing on her "peace of mind" now that we are apart. She has no confidence in my ability to change or grow through this. She is suffering immensely and has reached the threshold where she had to take a stand for herself to keep her sanity. That's simply where it stands. I don't like it, but those are the consequences of my actions, and all I can do is try to move forward one day at a time the best I can, not letting my childish feelings of rejection and anger do any more harm to anyone by learning new ways to overcome them.

Thanks again for the tough talk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost71:
<strong>I did not know "where I was" when I was chose to be with the other woman. I've spent many, many hours thinking about it. Both times the crucial failure of judgment was made and the affair ignited, I honestly felt like an observer. Like there was someone in me watching it happen, saying "what the &$*# are you doing? STOP!" -- and then feeling like there was no putting the toothpaste back in the tube once it was out. Please understand, I don't say that in any way to minimize my responsibility for my actions -- it's an honest description of my state of mind at those times.

Thanks again for the tough talk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That part I actually DO understand. NOt w/ regards to an A, but honestly in regards to doing ANYTHING that we KNOW is WRONG but we go ahead & do it anyway. SOme things are 'bigger' than others but doens't minimize the fact of still being WRONG.

I still don't buy into the finding yourself crap. I do believe however that you had a VERY active role in CHOOSING to reignite the A as well as begin it in the first place. I DO believe you had full control o fyoru emotions & actions that led up to it. SO from what you are saying, TO ME, it sounds like you are discounting that by trying to blame it on some other wierd psycho-babble type stuff. IMO

YOu could have prevented reigniting your A, (no matter what mental or emotional state you were in) by having NC w/ OW. See? If there was NC, it woudl NOT have happened @ all. Or even by sticking to the boundaries that you & W had set up.

I understand that these things do NOT happen overnight. THey happen step by step & each step takes you deeper & deeper 'into it' & farther & farther away from your spouse. kwim? Each step was a CHOICE to exert self-control & make a goo decision or not.
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OKAY-----------------so enough beating up on you. LOL

Here we are---so what are we gonna do now?

What exactly does the restraining order restrain you from? How do you see yoru kids? Are you allowed to speak to yoru W on the phone?

I can almost guarantee that she may cool off & be more receptive IF you were willing to do WHATEVER it takes to save your marraige?

what do you think today?

kt

Hi kt,

Where am I right now? Another rough night of bad dreams and getting myself all worked up over things that may or may not happen and are totally out of my control. So I'm trying to "reboot" myself this morning a little bit, heh.

I agree with all your comments, of course. I'm not trying to play this is "the devil made me do it" or anything. The psycho-babble is just a tool to try to put labels on the decisions and actions and thoughts that led up to them -- a tool to help me learn from this, not an excuse in any form. In retrospect, I don't think the boundaries were enough, given the undermining the MOW was up to behind my back with our boss.

If I could redo my actions after returning home last fall, no question I would just quit that job flat out and live with the the financial repercussions as needed. My W and I were both afraid of how that would destabilize our situtation, but we both clearly underestimated the danger there. My state of mind toward the OW at the time (anger and disillusionment) was such that I think I'd have been more than happy to live with NC forever. It was the continuing contact at work -- what's she doing, who's she talking to -- that stirred up the desire for re-engagement.

The RO is mutual, precluding disposal of marital assets (no-brainer) and any actions that could be deemed harassment or disturbing the peace of mind of the other party. I'm not in a position to risk anything that could be thrown back at me in court. Aside from emailing proposed dates/times/places/transport fo visitation, there will be no direct contact for the foreseeable future. Cooling off, I am less optimistic. I know her pretty well.

Thanks kt. Gotta head out for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Im a man and I gotta say there are some things women cant take and repeated affairs is one of them. Unless your wife is as forgiving as Mother theresa then forget it and let the divorce stand. Why would she want to take another chance on you when she can meet another man who will never cheat on her. Just be sure and mail in your child support for both "wives" every month. That will be your consequences for your irresponsible actions. I can tell you this if i ever cheated on my wife shed be out of the marriage. No ifs ands or butts.

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: BuckJones ]</small>