</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you've got a flotilla of MB angels praying for you boy! That speaks volumes to what you're tryin' to accomplish.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now isn't that just the coolest thing ever?

Lost - remember last night when I said that we had troops, armor, and a strategy with which to fight this battle? Now we have a whole friggin' floatilla too! When we're done fixing your marriage maybe we should invade Canada or something.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Canada, schmanada.

My vote is to take the Grand Caymans! At least that's someplace warm!

Good point. Not to mention that the odds of seeing a hockey game is the same in either localle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LOL. What is this thing of which you speak....this...this...hockey thing????

(sorry to TJ, Lost, but you have to admit a sense of humor is required to be able to keep breathig through the mess)

No problemo Kimmy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Flukeboy, it appears you've once again misspelled "defintly."

DANG!

Does this mean I'm officially stupid? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

out of the loop today, (trying to break MY online 'habit'. LOL)

Anyhoo--forget about your failures YESTERDAY.

Today is a NEW day & a new day to succeed.

But about that letter of yours......I thought the ending SUCKED!

Totally 'ol'let-me-put-it-on-YOU-Lost-, if YOUR W wants to D then that will be it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

NO, it should say, if I don't change MY ways then that will be it. If I CHOOSE to continue C w/ OW then I will have made MY choice which is to lose my FAMILY as I have known it & D my W. I will be CHOOSING to ONLY be a PART-TIME dad & NO longer YOUR H. I will be choosing to NO longer be married to you, enjoy dates w/ you, enjoy any alone time w/ you, Choosing to give up all sexual rights & priviledges to your body, I will be CHOOSING to give up all emotional ties to YOU, I will be CHOOSING to no longer consider YOU MY BEST FRIEND! I will be CHOOSING to no longer have you in my life except to the extent of being my children's mother. I will be CHOOSING to set you free to enjoy the romance & attention & sf of OTHER men or man that you MARRY! I will be CHOOSING to free you of our marital obligation & contract.

BE HONEST lost.......you're getting there.....but how 'bout you just BE there. And you will be when you DO NC.

Why do you think you need to clarify to OW? Who cares if she thought NC only meant THIS HOUR! I think she will get the idea when you continue NC for INFINITY!

NC MEANS NC---EVER & FOREVER!

DON'T call her back, email or write a letter to 'clarify'----just let it BE.

You're getting there lost & I think counseling w/ the HARLEYS is a GREAT & MAJOR step FORWARD!!!!!

And kudos to your W for being so strong & setting some healthy boundaries for herself. Take a mental note.

DO well today lost.

sincerely,
kt

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

kt, I very much prefer your ending to my letter to mine. Thanks, and thanks again for the encouragement.

NC except a handful of (necessary) work things via email for 35 hours. It's going pretty well -- the moments of withdrawal have been outnumbered by the moments of clarity, which is helping. I truly want nothing more to do with her, ever again, EVER, regardless of what happens in my M.

I'm meeting with my boss again this morning, which should be huge. Though there is a ton of work going on right now, I'm going to insist he personally delegate discrete tasks to each of us which don't require any feedback from the other. Wish me luck and all the prayers you can spare.

Oh, and kt, I hear you about there being no need to clarify anything to OW. Not only just on principle, but in practice my experience is that she NEVER hears anything except what she wants to hear.

She's a frightening person, not physically, but in the sense that when she's mad there's almost no limit to what she'll stoop to. She can do wsme really weird stuff -- like when I picked her up to take her to the ultrasound Wednesday, I saw the brand-new satellite radio I'd given her (to replace one I'd borrowed, cutting the ties) smashed to pieces in the box. "I hit it with a hammer." I think my boss is even intimidated by her anger. I'm a little afraid of what she could do to me in other areas -- she has full access to my payroll, bank account information, 401k accounts etc. through her job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost71:
<strong> Oh, and kt, I hear you about there being no need to clarify anything to OW. Not only just on principle, but in practice my experience is that she NEVER hears anything except what she wants to hear.

She's a frightening person, not physically, but in the sense that when she's mad there's almost no limit to what she'll stoop to. She can do wsme really weird stuff -- like when I picked her up to take her to the ultrasound Wednesday, I saw the brand-new satellite radio I'd given her (to replace one I'd borrowed, cutting the ties) smashed to pieces in the box. "I hit it with a hammer." I think my boss is even intimidated by her anger. I'm a little afraid of what she could do to me in other areas -- she has full access to my payroll, bank account information, 401k accounts etc. through her job. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lost, first I want to comment on your last paragraph, especially the sentence in italics! Is there any way that you can change the important things, such as PIN's for these accounts? I know that for bank accounts, unless there is a standing approval, a company can't take the money out. But, for payroll and your 401k, I'm not so sure. With the payroll, your boss knows what's going on, and you could notify him if there are discrepencies, right? I would contact the bank and the company that holds your 401k and see if there is anything extra you can do to protect yourself. There should be something, especially in this day of identity theft. Heck, you could even spin it in that way to them! Say that you think you MAY have been a victim of identity theft!

As for her tendency towards violence. Well, we still hold onto the original police report of when the xMOM attacked my H on D-day! That was almost 5 years ago, and I still shiver in fear when I think of those weeks before he was kicked out of the military! You need to do everything possible to protect your family!

I am proud of your effort! You are truly showing that you want to change, and at this point, if she won't agree to the counseling yet, do it for yourself! Call the Harley's and get some counseling and help from the ones who perfected the principles! They've heard it all, and had SO much success that it should only be a matter of time before you can be back with your family where you belong! Here's praying that your boss can get even those "work related" emails to end, by getting you two on completely unrelated jobs! Oh, and the " " for the above was not in anyway sarcasim against you, it was more toward what the xMOW may try to use them as. Let's hope that you can go to your wife with your reasons for counseling, and wanting to have yet another chance and she will see them for what they are, and you can get back with the healing of your M.

Tigger

Holy Batcrap! (forgive me, read 2 new JLA's last night - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

She is "pets boiling on the stove" psycho!

Please, for the sake of your familia, PLEASE stay as far away from that nut job as possible!

If I were you, I'd consider finding a job in the next town over.

(shudder/ick)

Sending up a flare prayer for you and yours!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost71:
<strong> She can do wsme really weird stuff -- like when I picked her up to take her to the ultrasound Wednesday, I saw the brand-new satellite radio I'd given her (to replace one I'd borrowed, cutting the ties) smashed to pieces in the box. "I hit it with a hammer." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL! Well, I baseball-batted my H TV <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> after his 'confession' so I have to laugh @ that. And I'm NOT psycho.(or usually hot tempered) I was quite calm & methodical when I did it. LOL

But being the 'drama queen' OW seems to be (only from your posts) the fact that she had it where YOU would be sure to see it----indicates manipulation & drama queen (or what we like to call 'baby mama drama') behavior for sure! (have you seen 'Mean Girls' w/ Lindsey Lohan? rent it & I bet you will recognize some behavior! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL)

Oh & definately look into protecting your financial assets.....not a good situation to be in.

Stay strong, NC, NC, NC.

kt

I'm drafting an NC letter in my head to send on once the ultimate resolution of the job situation becomes clearer. I'd like to be able to show it to my W before I mail it, if we can at least start hinting at the possibility of reconciliation before I'd need to send it. As it is it all feels very much unwelcome and out of bounds and legally dangerous for me.

46 hours NC except work emails.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost71:
<strong> 46 hours NC except work emails. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
KEEP up the GOOD work Lost!!!!!!!!!

~~~~...Looks like you'll make it after all~~~~
(is that how the ol' song goes?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

xoxoxo
kt

Wow...what you wrote...was reflective of mentality that is/was/still is my xh.

He had affair with 0w1. She was proported "soul mate". During that affair, he also saw other women too...we tried reconciliation, I worked my MB butt off and it worked for a while...but his fence sitting would not end and his lust for cake wouldn't stop.

To put it mildly, he was and is a narcissist. He wants his way. He wants to be loved, adored, and obeyed. He is cfo of a company btw.

He viewed my original filings for divorce and my hiring attorney as you did...He wanted easy divorce. Claimed it would be easier on our child, etc..but in end, it was b/c he didn't want his secrets revealed in court. I hired an attorney because I COULD NO LONGER TRUST HIM TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR US. Again, it was his narcissism getting in the way.

OW1 broke up with him when she discovered he and I had more reconciliation talks...I told her. He got dumped and I had no idea about ow2...actually, he slept around alot during our last year of marriage...well, living together. I only knew of one OW, so I couldn't combat any of ow2's actions...it was secret. He quickly replaced soulmate ow1, and me the W, with ow2 who moved in with him almost instantly or so it seemed. He couldn't be alone. He couldn't decide. He wallowed in it and swam in the muck and mire of HIS own creation...and yet he blamed ME for pushing him towards owomen, and blamed ow1 for abandoning him too...

When Ow2 began feeling insecure, she did deliberately what she did to her xbf...deliberately getting herself pregnant. My xh and I were talking alot. I was not aware he was that tight with ow and was lying about even living with anybody. She has a child previously outta wedlock..her m.o. is using pregnancies and children to hook a man. It is sick. But like you, my WH did not use any protection. Why? Simple. He said it didn't really feel like sf with a condom. Again, narcissism.

I understand how your wife feels. I know what she's thinking. And you are nearing if you DO NOT STOP...AND CHANGE YOUR WAYS PERMANENTLY..of your W turning into me.

Although separated, we tried talking a few times, although I had given up...he would rage against me, and blame me for his problems. This went on for a year. Meanwhile, ow2 got more antsy. He was not divorcing his W fast enough, seemed to be "invisible brakes" on the divorce, and she was not getting any reassurances from him for a serious relationship, so she got pregnant deliberately.

My x did not have the epiphany as you did. He continued down the "poor ME" path and got worse and worse. He is someone today I do not know.

Last year, shortly before birth of oc, in his office at work, he admitted to me in tears that he was sorry things had happened this way, that they had spiraled out of control (only he had spiraled out of control) and said he would always love me. He was crying during this. But that day...I can tell you, any remaining .000001 percent of love I had for him died. It died that day in an instant. Something inside of me completely broke.

Here is your path if you do not change your course.

Consider this like "A Christmas Carol"'s ending where Scrooge sees his name carved on the headstone and the events that follow...this could be you if you continue in your affair and fence sitting and do not realize you ARE suffering from effects of narcissism and need serious help both personally and professionally to get thru this and recover your family. You need to FIRE your counselor, get a psych for your narcissism, and talk to Harleys or MB here to get thru affair fog.

Here is your future if you choose NOT to change:
1)my xh was placed under extreme pressure by ow and her family to marry her. They married almost instantly after our D was signed by judge. She was in last trimester.
2)I lost all respect and love for my xh. He became man who is a complete stranger to me. He stooped so low and refused to ever have any accountability in his life for what happened. Oh sure, he can say he was wrong for it, but he did nothing to change. His business partner, business partner's wife, and his secretary and most everybody who knows him or is on his payroll (other than his foggy parents who cheat themselves) have lost respect for him.
3)There is no peace in their life. They have to struggle with one baby, and two kids constantly going in opposite directions with custody issues...My son going back and forth with me and xh, and her son going back and forth with her and xbf and xbf's new W. It's wrong. It's mixed up. It is sad.
4)Xh is still unhappy and depressed. On further downward spiral. As for me, I now have NOTHING to do with him unless there is an issue regarding parenting or residual financial issues. You see, when you cheat and lie and live a double life, even if a D is imminent, you have to tie up loose ends. It's hard for those living a double life to do.
5)I am and have moved on. I have been dating now for almost a year. I feel sadness and still feel angry sometimes when I think of how horribly selfish my xh is. I don't really have any happy memories to fondly cherish because he became such a monster.
6)A year and a half ago, during divorce, my xh flew out of control and broke into my home during my work hours. He took an expensive watch and logged onto my computer, checked caller ID and voicemails. He was looking for "evidence" I had cheated, but found nothing. What he was also doing was sneaking and trying to find out if I had moved on...deep down that was his greatest narcissistic fear.
7)things were irretreviably broken due to his inability to act. My son is bounced between homes...one home stable and loving where he is the main focus (my son being focus that is) to a home where there is more lies, cheating, and bouncing around. Found out from xh's secretary (her H was a patient of mine and told me this without my ever asking one word about my xh) that he's been cheating on ow/Wife for about 6 mos. now...and with most likely ow1. So my son has to c ontinue to be around this. My xh is too proud to ever admit he has a problem or seek help for his mental problems. Instead, when I tried to open his eyes, he grew angry and lashed out against me at every turn.
8)In order to maintain peace and clarity in my life, I decided to cut off all ties to my xh except for the 2 instances I stated above. It helped me get away from him and made me see and feel better. Plan B for life basically. Now he tries almost constantly to pretend he wants to be my "friend" and I don't let him in. I do not wish to anymore. I hate and despise his friendly emails, jokes, and whatnot he sends me. He did it again yesterday.

He's finally accepted he did this. But not accountable for it. He lost me. He lost his once best friend and ally. He cannot get it back now. He had a chance. One time, not so terribly long ago, he was at a crossroad. And he took the wrong path. This is where you are.

I post here b/c what I was left with was anger and residual disgust after his actions. I try to channel those negative feelings into help to somebody here who might need encouragement or a second set of eyes to get them thru a tough time. Your W is at a crossroad too. Either you put your money where your mouth is, or keep on tripping in the fog.

Does my xh's life appeal to you? Is it ok that my son goes thru this? Is it ok that nothing is nearly the same?

You are there. The crossroad is before you. On one side, you see an easy, shiny paved path. It's a breeze. But you will end up in a town called folly. The other path is rocky. In fact, there isn't even any road there. You'd have to continue down that path on nothing but blind faith. You'd have to consult things to remain on that path (gps system, maps, etc.) because you would get lost if you tried to think you knew it all...It is a long path...but it would end in a place called Peace. Which do you choose?

How radically honest with yourelf can you get?

If you choose the Road to Peace, then know you're gonna have to get off your duff, accept some REAL accountability, fire your counselor, get a tough love counselor, preferably a psychologist who can do good work w/narcissism and issues quite possibly like yours, and get a MB counseling coach...And you'd have to get radically honest and be positive about your W. She's scared, running, and seeking counsel of those she CAN trust. For now it is not you.

You are sooo dangerously close to the crossroad. Will you choose wisely? Please, for your family's sake, take yourself out of equation and choose wisely.

Work on you, let your W know you love her and you're going to take a new approach to helping your family and taking responsibility for YOUR problems this time. That the old way is BROKEN. A new way is needed. Do not get angry or blame her. Plan A her and the kids awesomely.

And yes, you could be in OC's life if carefully done. But it would have to be done legally and to remove OW from picture completely.

Oh, and did I mention that my xh and OW/now W fight all the time? His sec's husband said that. They don't get along. She's a demanding golddigger and he doesn't like what he bargained for in the first place. So if you think the easier path is best, think again. But that child, the OC does not need to suffer either. It is a life too. There can be a way to POSITIVELY heal your Marriage and Be A RESPONSIBLE AND ACCOUNTABLE DAD AND HUSBAND...

Which path are you choosing? Please remember my xh. Please remember my family. See what could have been? Can you? If you can, then do the right thing.

Wow justpeachy, thanks for posting this. I can see myself in your xH's behavior and attitudes, that is for sure. I feel very fortunate -- blessed -- that I have had the support of some very wise and caring people who've been there for me in those moments when the fog has cleared to help point out the landscape ahead, and how far off the road I've wandered.

I feel pretty positive about my therapy so far. It's given me a lot of tools to deal with my emotions realistically, and to be brutally honest about how childish and selfish my behavior has always been. It's time to grow up and finally be a man whose actions align with his values, who is responsible for his own behavior, and who can be a real partner to a woman someday, not some kind of quasi-child who just needs and takes.

With each day that passes, especially now that I'm four days plus into permanent NC, the fog clears more and more. I see in OW's behavior a person I don't really even like, let alone one I could spend my life with happily. She's no soulmate. She may have been well-matched to my "old" self and attitudes. But on her best day she could never participate in any of the work I'm doing now. We've tried to talk about it -- she clearly doesn't get it, and her attempts to feign interest and support were never very convincing.

I think I need to read up on "Plan A" for my wife. I think I've only approached those concepts from the point of view of a BS dealing with a WS. She comes across as so totally closed to the ideas around reconciliation that she could well already be at that place you arrived -- where the love is just dead. I don't know if time will help or not. Either way, I am proceeding on this path. It will help me be a better, more whole person no matter what she decides.