My H told the OW he was separated, that the marriage was over, that I hated him... she was a nice, normal, caring person who believed a man when he said these things. She is also separated, and probably felt the same things about her marriage. <P>I have also been an OP. I believed the OM when he said he wouldn't marry his SO (they've lived together for years) but he would marry me. I believed him when he said that he would take care of me, would love me forever...<P>You know, it's so easy to put the OP down as a scumsucking bottom feeder who only wants to find pleasure.<P>Isn't always that way... I find that among those I have chosen to confide in, and also among many betrayers here, that we were hurting, vulnerable people who made a VERY POOR CHOICE to have an affair ... and that includes my H, who slept with someone only 3 weeks ago.<P>I don't know why I'm posting this exactly, as I have been trying like heck to stay away, but in reading the posts, I find that there is so much bitterness toward the OP... I had it too ... that is, until I began to look at her like the hurting human being that she is... and folks, she's circling a bit like a vulture, to see what will become of David and I, just to pick up the pieces if need be, but I can't say that I blame her. She fell in love with the person my H presented himself to be. Not her fault...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited February 13, 2000).]

Sheryl,<BR>I hope I wasn't one who offended you when I talked about the OP in my H's life. I definately did not mean to. I can only speak about the OW in my case. She is a piece of trash. She worked on my H for 2 years and finally made a big enough impression. My marriage is not the first one she got in the middle of. Mine is about the 4th one in the past few years. She thrives on being able to destroy lives. <P>Again, I didn't mean anything about any of the people here. You obviously want your marriage or you wouldn't be here. <P>If anything I have posted was taken the wrong way by you or anyone else, I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I have come to think of you all as family.<P>Hugs,<BR>Mitzi

Sheryl -- Thanks for posting that. Too many times here I have seen the OP blasted and given <B>all</B> of the blame for the affair. OPs preying on unsuspecting spouses, telling them what they want to hear and/or deliberately trying to wreck a good marriage. Rarely do I see anyone who puts the responsibility where it truly and completely lies: with the straying spouse. <P>Someone else made a very good point here once. The OP is <B>not</B> the one who made any vows or promises to the betrayed. They have no obligation to the marriage or relationship. They only see a combination of what they want to see and what the spouse shows them.<P>Don't get me wrong. I think W's OM is a slimebag, always telling her what she wants to hear and portraying his feelings as only a "true" friendship when all he really wants is to get back in her pants again. The problem is, that W didn't/doesn't have to believe everything he says, but she does. That's not his fault. He didn't rape her, she went to his bed willingly.<P>Sorry, {vent mode off}.<P>--DeWayne--

Dear nb,<P>At the beginning of my H affair I, too, felt sorry for the OW. The problem I began to have with that though is that <B>she knew</B> how much I loved my H. So much so that I tried to make it easier for him to leave because I knew he was hurting and needed to take care of himself by leaving. Neither one of them could believe I acted that way. Plan A'd before I knew what it was, like so many people here on the forum.<P>She began to exert pressure on him tho to try to forget about his family, spend Xmas and Thanksgiving with her....yadda, yadda, yadda. <P>She is still trying to keep herself in his thoughts, and I feel trying to cause more problems by making sure I know that H still does not tell me the 'whole' truth. So, I no longer feel sorry for her. I do pity her though because she is such a loser. And, yes, I feel justified in thinking she IS a piece of trash because that is the way she lives her life. I agree with you that many times the OP is just as much in the dark as we were/are, but in my case this wasn't true.

I'm certain that this varies as much as each individual situation. My H fell for the OW because she was beautiful, friendly, they had work in common, she is divorced, vulnerable, yet "up" for anything. She also chased the pants off him.<P>I have hated her because it is much less painful to hate a virtual stranger than my beloved husband. Now I don't feel so great about my husband...and still hate her as well.<P>Is she truly trash? I don't think my H would have gotten involved with someone who was bad to the bone. Bad choices and mistakes and chances were made. Emotions & bodies involved. So, yeah, I can think of it logically, but I don't want to think of her having any redeeming qualities and she lied to me the one time I talked to her. My H lied countless times. Still does if he's not paying attention.<P>

Heartpain,<BR>While it is true that the OP has not made any vows to the betrayed, that doesn't make what she/he is doing any less wrong. The OP didn't promise me that she wouldn't steal my car either, but if she did it would still be wrong.<P>The OP are quite possibly often hurting and vulnerable. They may have been good people before the affair, and they may be good people again after they feel remorse. But the affair is equally the fault of both the betrayer and the OP.

Ok so not all OP/OW/OM are evil homewrecking manipulators. In the beginning, maybe. But after they find out the truth, which I believe there is a point when they do, its what they decide to do at that moment that I believe defines them from that point on. <P> If someone is a OP, and they learn that their affair partner lied, that there are years of history going on, children involved, and they choose to continue the relationship, then at that point, they can't be called "innocent" any longer.<P>In my case I do hate the OW and always will. I feel bad in saying it, but I can't see me ever feeling otherwise. I appologize to those who don't agree, but it sounds, more common on this site, that most of the OP that are involved in many of our lives, are truly disgusting individuals who in the end, hopefully get what they deserve. <P>I hope I don't offend anyone thats just my opinion based on experience that I wish I never had.

Nellie -- You are certainly right in what you said. However, what I see so much of on this board is "OP is trash...OP is a homewrecker...OP is stealing my spouse..." and so on. Then in the next sentence they will say "Oh, spouse is so wonderful...I love them so much...they wouldn't do anything like this..." and so on.<P>Sure, we want our spouses back so much that we will transfer all of their guilt to the OP. If you truly hate the OP for what they did, then by fairness, you should hate the spouse even more. They did the same thing the OP did, but the spouse is breaking solemn marriage vows to do it. They are the ones to make the promises, the ones who are supposedly your best friends and the ones who have asked you to forgo other lovers to be with them. <P>My penny's worth...<P>--DeWayne--

Happy to see some dialogue on this topic, because I have been very bitter over the years - very, <B>very</B> bitter, actually. It wasn't until this newest affair (and frankly, maybe it was <B>because</B> I also had an affair that I began to question the motives) that I realized the mindset of the OP. <P>Don't get me wrong... I hated the other women(all three of them!)... because all I could see was that they tricked my beautiful husband into being with them. I took responsibility for my actions, for my part in the demise of the marriage at the time, and I was also angry with my H, but the <B>brunt of anger</B> went straight to the other women. In fact, in all three cases (prior to this latest woman), they were hurting and looking for someone to love them, to make them feel worth. I have no idea why their relationships hadn't worked out, or if they were looking specifically for a married man, and I don't care anymore. <P>This newest one... GOD, if only you could <B>see</B> her... she is just the saddest thing. You guys, I <B>saw myself</B> in her! <P>Now don't think I'm not still devistated by my H's latest affair, because I'm dammed mad and hurt by it! But I think I understand where everyone concerned was coming from, and this will be hard for some of you to hear... EVERYONE CONCERNED WAS COMING FROM A PLACE OF HURT AND LACK OF LOVE (real or perceived). <P>You can hate your OP all you want, and I certainly won't tell you not to, but what will that serve? Really? <P>Everyone wants and needs to feel loved. And we, as humans, are very selfish... doesn't make it right, but it does make it a reality of sorts. By the time someone has had an affair, it is almost too late... the crying- out has gone on for some time, I believe... and so now we (as betrayed) are clinging on, and saying that the OP is bad, and praying for a miracle... and that's what it will take in many, many of our situations - a miracle... because, let's face it, it was almost over before the affair began. Yes, healing can take place, and yes, a whole marriage can grow again... but not before the pain (on both sides)is dealt with, and the judgement has subsided. <P>Yes, you're hurt by all of this, and for some of you this may be brand new pain (remember, I just found out about this latest woman two weeks ago! )... I could let this eat me up alive, or I could begin to understand... I choose understanding. <BR>

Hi NB,<P>You are absolutely correct that now all OP are trash. I believe that they are an easy target for us because of all pain that we are expericning in the situation.<P>I took me a total of about 4 days after discovery to figure that out. I was cursing Val and Brian up and down. It finally hit me that I was also part of the problem and not the solution.<P>We tend to think that if "they" [OP] were not around our marriage and life would be back to normal. I don't think so. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. Val was looking for something that I was not capable of giving her at the time.<P>I harbor no ill will against Brian, well usually not. Val is a great woman and anyone would be happy to have her in their life. It just took me a little to catch on to that fact. <P>Take care Sheryl<P>Tim

Sheryl,<BR>I don't agree that the "crying-out" has necessarily gone on for some time - I think in many, many cases (more often in men, I suspect) they have given absolutely NO indication that anything was wrong, or that they were feeling unloved, or whatever. And many times affairs are preceeded by a major crisis or set-back in the betrayer's life. I think it is an oversimplification to say that the marriage was almost over before the betrayal, or even that there was necessarily anything seriously wrong with it.<BR>

NB,<P>David told this woman some half-truth or maybe it was the truth to him at that moment.<BR>However, she now must surely know different.<P>Your OM told you some things that you eventually realized not to be the truth.<P>People were hurting, yet they made these choices as you said.<P>If not the choice to have the affair in the first place, then the choice to continue the affair on the part of the OW/OM is what is bothersome.<P>In my case, married twice to infidels, both OWs chose to continue with my husbands even after they knew one attempt at recovery was being made and for the other, the fact that a wife existed at all.<P>On Friday I had an OW in tears at my shop over how her MM was treating her. I've talked with her before, tried to make her see reason. I have asked her why she would want to do this to another woman. When I see her this week I am going to point out to her the terrible choice she made when she realized he was married and CHOSE to continue with him.<P>Two weeks ago they went on a weekend trip together and in a joking manner she told me she wanted to phone his wife right before he picked her for the airport, say "sucker" and hang up. My current H knows I was in tears for hours over this.<P>And like you, I don't know why I post this. I totally understand the bitterness here towards OPs but I also realize they are lied to by our spouses. I realize OPs are people too, making really bad choices. <P>The OPs in the lives we see here are NOT like you at all. They are well aware they are causing a marriage to end. They are not posting here and they are doing all they can to get our spouses away from us.<P>You are the one person on this board who has ever made me think for a moment that not all OPs are trash.<BR> <BR>Doesn't it piss you off that now that David's fling knows the poo she CHOOSES to vulture about? It's okay to throw some blame and fault at her now!! You don't have to call her trash but, she sure can be called stupid. If she is hurt from her past and ready for a new relationhip she can buy Seventeen magazine and take Kathy's Love advice about boys on the rebound. It's so basic to self esteem and what is right that the discussion starts in the teen years.<P>Maybe I'm just mad at her for you. <P>I don't want to hurt anyone, ever, by writing something on this board but it may happen.<P>OPs blow chunks, big hairy green ones, and not ONE of those chunk blowers posts here. By the time you are here, you realize the terrible tragedy of infidelity. <P>

I agree with you Sheryl 100%. I would even venture out to say that we as spouses sometimes can't see that the other is 'crying out' because we are comfrtable with the status and like things just the way they are. Or we choose not to see because we don't want to face that there is a problem. <BR>Then our eyes are forced open when the spouse cheats or walks out. Now this is NOT an Excuse by any means, but it is fact and the way things are.<BR>The OP is not the blame by no means, if we couldn't count on our spouses, why should we expect the OP to have any conscience. Like you said, most of the time, by the time they now the truth about the betraying spouse they have already fallen in love. <BR>It is up to us whether or not to save or leave our marriages. It takes two to make or break a marriage. Just something I believe.<P>Like always, their are exceptions. Nothing is set in stone. And no two marriages are alike. There maybe similarities, but all are unique!!<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

My anger over this affair is divided between my ex and the OW equally. However, the OW in my situation knew he was married, had children, and still wouldn't leave him alone, even after I spoke to her calmly about our children. She has even called my home. Her history shows her true moral character, she left her H for another man and has had several affairs since then. She has a 7 year old son and has carried on her affair with my ex right under his nose. I do consider this woman a piece of trash and sadly enough, right now I consider my ex a piece of trash, also. Whether he remains that way is still to be seen. I don't love the man he is now, I love the man he was before his affair. He changed right before my eyes when he became involved with her.<P>AD

Sheryl,<P>I hope I didn't hurt feelings either. <P>When I post about OW I try not to belittle her (unless I'm in a "mood") She is a good woman, with bad judgement. (She used to be my best friend) Sometimes my anger overrides my judgement and I say things that are not very nice. I’m always sorry if I hurt anyone by my words, I plead temporary stupidity. <P>This is OW’s #12 EA. Her family warned me about her pattern. (they should have warned H) She's well known in the town as a dependable, upright, honest citizen. She sees nothing wrong with what she does. She craves the attention of a man and I honestly don't think she realizes the damage she does to the marriages of her "victims", H doesn’t see that it’s damaging our marriage either. (To close to the forest to see the trees?) They feel that they are innocent because there is no sex involved.<P>I don't connect "our" OW with anyone here. I know that many have been deceived on both sides.<P>I value advice from betrayers and betrayed. I don’t judge anyone for their past. (Mine isn’t so snowy white). <P>I’m sorry to anyone who I may have hurt with any statements I’ve made. Please be reassured that it was not intentional.<P>Keo

Sheryl,<P>You are correct in your assumption, howver I know for a fact that OB is a scunbsucking piece of trash..<P>He DID systematicly scam my W and wreck my family just so he could get laid...<P>Bill

<B>I plead temporary stupidity. </B><P>Keosha,<BR>I just had to tell you that you made me laugh when I read that <P>Thanks I needed a laugh...

I rarely get involved with these semi-philosophical posts… but my kids aren't home yet from their visitation with their mom and the OM.<P>My 2¢…<P>If you know my ideas on how children should be exposed to the OP… you'll understand my mindset. You might not agree with it… but you'll understand it better.<P>People (this includes waywards and OPs) are not <B>bad</B>… they just have the proclivity to do <B>bad</B> things… it's part of our human nature… the Adam and Eve thing if you will. We can <B>all</B> do bad things… and we <B>all</B> have done bad things…call it <B>sin</B> if you will.<P>I still profess… virtually every week… to my children that they are to <B>"love the sinner"… but "hate the sin"</B>.<P><B>"loving the sinner"</B>… means a lot…<BR>turning the other cheek…<BR>not being judgmental…<BR>going out of the way to help… even if by just…<BR>praying for them (to have good judgment)…<BR>loving your neighbor (no matter who)…<BR>loving (even… yes…) the OP… ah ha!<P>…and you know what…<BR><B>this is what Plan A is about</B>!<P>A few others, much wiser than I, have said this in previous posts and e-mails.<BR>This is that <B>unconditional</B> form of love…<BR>(that Dr. Harley does <I>not</I> explicitly express in his books and counseling)<P>How do you love "your enemy"/OP…<BR>you pray for them… for return of right judgment.<P>Now.. about "<B>hating the sin</B>"…<BR>… this is a very hard one…<BR>and I go by what is in my gut… soul… conscience and at a level so much deeper. For me these are represented by some <B><I>absolutes</I></B>…founded in a "natural" law that goes beyond county/state/federal statutes… often founded in things beyond what we profess such as that which we learn about in studying the US Constitution. These are not "individual's" laws… that can be altered… or changed at a whim.<BR>Absolutes… like…<BR>killing is wrong…<BR>taking someone else's spouse is wrong…<BR>being envious of what other's have is wrong…<P>When we, as humans, step beyond these absolutes… it is the sin… <B>that</B> sin which we need to hate. Hating the sin by doing all we can to stop and deter it's spread. By not stopping the sin we allow the absolutes to be chipped away at… until there is nothing to stand for, and no reasonable man-made law can stand without.<P>Do I hate the OP?… No.<BR>Do I hate what OP <B>has done</B> to encourage my S to behave the way she has?… Yes. I hate the sin.<BR>Do I hate what OP <B>has done</B> to the stability of my family?… Yes. I hate the sin.<BR>Do I hate what OP <B>has done</B> to corrupt the values I wish to impart to my children?… Yes. I hate the sin.<BR>Do I hate what my S <B>has done</B> to accept these actions?… Yes. I hate the sin.<BR>Not to hate the sin is as bad as "hating the sinner"!<BR>I hate the sin and work against its continuation with all my power!<BR>But… do I hate the OP?… No.<BR>Do I hate my S?… No. No. No.<BR>I love the OP… and I pray every day for him… as much as I pray for each and everyone of you.<P>In the end… we (because of our human frailties) end-up… hating the sinner. Making the sinner to be a monster… sponge… LRB… PT… wankboy… whatever… it isn't an answer… it's just a reaction.<P>Might the work I do to "hate the sin" hurt the sinner as well?… maybe in some "physical" or "emotional" sense…<BR>Maybe by depriving some "physical" or "emotional needs"…<P>Yes… you've got it… that's part of Plan B… and little bit of what is in every Plan A… when the betrayed says… "<I>this</I> I can not do"!<P>The sin, in it's own course, stands only on what consequences it brings… most are dire.<P>It is unfair to them? Are we too sometimes weak?<BR>Good questions to ask.<P>Ok.. I'm off my soap box… the kids are almost home… Their coming will have made me happy. <P>Best to all… <P>Jim<BR>------------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited February 13, 2000).]

WOW everyone! Excellent, excellent replies!!! <P>A few random thoughts:<P>Even if the person systematically went about to find a married person and dupe them into bed... it isn't about <B>you or your spouse</B> it is about <B>them</B>. Did you get that? It is about their frailties, their fears, and possibly is the only way they think they can find the love they so desperately want and need. <P>Every OP comes with baggage of some kind. It isn't your job to find out what kind of baggage, but it is there nonetheless. My H had three affairs. Did I turn around and have affairs to pay him back? No. But... and here's the rub... twelve years later, when I first kissed my OM, it crossed my mind..."this is what David felt like"... where the he!! did THAT come from?... God gave us memories. And if my OP's sig. other were to look into <B>my</B> past, she would see a hurting W who put up with three affairs by her H. Would it make her feel better? Doubtful, of course... but... does it make <B>you</B> understand my actions better? <P>Sin is sin. If adultery is a sin (and I believe it is), and if the Bible is correct (and I believe it is) then <B>ALL</B> have sinned and come short of the glory of God... sorry to throw the Bible card into the mix... but let's just say for argument sake that sin <B>is</B> sin... now, I won't go so far to say that the day you stole a pen from work is the same as infidelity, but what about the day you drove home a little too drunk, or the day you fibbed on your taxes, or the day you lied to save face... all of it wrong, all of it sin.<P>Thank you all for discussing this with me on a blustery Sunday afternoon... <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited February 13, 2000).]

Sorry NB,<P>The OW was and ever shall be a "scum-sucking bottom feeder! I wish I could find some redeeming quality in her but alas there is none. I tried to touch base with her and give her a platform to share her side of the story and all she did was rub my face in it!<P>I ended up sharing Jesus with her in hopes that somehow she would find salvation and not seek to snare another "lusting male" into her web. She is only wanting to soothe her sorry soul! She will strike again and with it pass on her lethal STD and destroy another family!<P>The only thing that would ever change my mind is if she had a real conversion experience and find Jesus as her Savior. Until then she is lost!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>"Perfect love casts out fear" I John 4:18