I agree that sin is sin. However, I do feel that some sins have greater consequences than others. Adultery is a sin that causes severe pain and damage to innocent people, as well as the guilty ones. If my ex had stolen a pen, sure thats wrong, but I don't think my sons and I would be in this much pain. Adultery is mentioned countless times in the Bible and I do feel it is one of the sins with greater consequences. Of course, all sin will be forgiven IF there is a repentant heart and turning away from that sin. Unfortunately, many of the betrayers haven't done that.<P>AD<P>Ad

I have to apologize, guys. This is a very sensitive subject with me. I know there are cases where the OP is as Bill says "a scumsucking piece of trash" and there are other cases where the OP didn't know the spouse's true situation at first.<P>My point is, that whether the straying spouse was lied to, scammed or simply wooed, <B>they</B> and they alone made the decision to stray. Yes, they are human too, and make mistakes. That's why even though W has not asked for forgiveness or even expressed much in the way of regret, she has my forgiveness for what happened then. When OM made his overtures, she could have turned him down and no harm would have been done, but <B>she</B> chose differently. Sure I think his morals stink, but he wasn't married to me(or anyone else for that matter). The one I was married to committed the betrayal, not him.<P>You are more than welcome to hate the OP if that's how you truly feel, but <B>never</B> take one ounce of responsibility off of the spouse and transfer it to OP. This is called dealing in reality.<P>--DeWayne--

jamie-lee,<P>Or sometimes the betrayed suspects the betrayer is unhappy, asks specifically if it has something to do with them, and is told no, it is just work, financial difficulties, whatever. The mistake made is only in not being able to see through the lies. What more can a spouse do - I can't read his mind. <P>Silly me, I atttributed his unhappiness to the fact that we were going broke, his dreams had gone up in smoke, we were being harassed, his job was extremely stressful, and a relative had just been murdered. I thought his depression was situational. It was not a situation where I was blind to his "crying out" because I was comfortable with things the way they were.

Another question:<P>My son, in therapy, has been given a plan of action for his temper. The questions we must ask him, whenever he is angry, are these:<P>Is what you are doing helping you?<P>Is what you are doing against the rules?<P>Is what you want realistic?<P>Does it help you to currently see the situation differently?<P>Is your commitment to change your behavior at the highest level?<P>Is the plan that you made to change your behavior a good plan?<P><B><I>Now let's put this out to you, as the betrayed...</B></I><P>Is what you are doing helping you? Is your anger/bitterness <B>helping</B> you, your spouse or your situation?<P>Is what you are doing against the rules? What are "your rules"? Is your anger/bitterness going against your rules? Say you're in Plan A. Is your anger/bitterness going against Plan A?<P>Is what you want realistic? Is wanting your marriage realistic? Is your being angry/bitter helping you to attain your goal of getting back your marriage?<P>Does it help you to currently see the situation differently? Does your anger/bitterness help you see your marriage in a better light?<P>Is your commitment to change your behavior at the highest level? Is your desire to have your marriage back at its highest level? Have you never wanted your marriage more??<P>Is the plan that you made to change your behavior a good plan? Or maybe... this plan is not where you should be?? Or maybe... this is exactly where you should be???<P>Food for thought!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited February 13, 2000).]

As I quoted in original response:<P>"Like always, their are exceptions. Nothing is set in stone. And no two marriages are alike. There maybe similarities, but all are unique!!"<BR> <BR>Nellie, you are absolutely right in your case. I wasn't speaking about you,just voicing MY GENERAL opinion that's all. <BR>

Okay now I am really mad !!!!<BR>This post is all bulls*****<P>Morality and values is a personal choice and decision. What we do with the temptations of immorality is based on our value system. I have no respect for any OP's who very obviously chose to involve themselves with a married person. I can't think of ONE GOOD REASON to pursue a married person ! Yes, our betrayer spouses also did not protect themselves from temptation and allowed themselves to be in vulnerable places (conversations, lunches, etc...)<P>Are the OP's trash? Probably not, we are not here to judge them. But, I can choose to not respect them and find their behavior unacceptable and immoral. If the OP is single, I respect them even less. The single OP is probably emotionally very needy, will take what they can get, and does not respect other's marriage vows. I know not everyone here is a Christian, but HELLO, seeking to be involved with a married person is adultery and violates one of the commandments. Yes, the betrayer spouse is being adulterous, but based on what we believe at marriage builders, that spouse is vulnerable, not having needs met, and gets involved. It takes two, I would expect one of them to back off. So, no I don't blind myself to my spouse's behavior, but I sure as heck don't feel any sympathy for the OP.<BR>Give me a freaking break!

Sheryl,<BR>I feel your compassion and your pain. We all have that basic need to be comforted which causes us all to think about relieving our pain first withou thinking about how relieving that pain will affect others.<P>I say this because I so DESPARATELY want to relieve my pain. Yet, I also have no great desire to inflict on her what she has inflicted on me. I want to be an example of what a real man is to our boys. She told them what she did and I Have been talking with them to ease their discomfort with the tension between her and me.<P>I know that I LB when I go in our bedroom and listen to sermons on the radio. Yet, I have to have the only thing that gives me joy in the midst of the storm. It is because of those sermons and my daily readings of the Bible that I am still with her. He keeps telling me that I can't leave yet. He wants me to be there for her and the boys.<P>She often tells me that I am not acting like a Christian. This hurts when I am already down about doing His will. There are those times when I feel as though I have let Him and her down. Then He will let me know through a sermon or the scripture I read on a given day that I am dong what He wants me to do. He talks with me regularly because I really do want to leave and take custody of our boys. That would be really cold.<P>So, I suffer and be nice. I know she needs me to be there for her. I try to stay away from doing things that will cause me to hurt her. I figure that the moment that I retaliate that she will want to work on our relationship. That would be truly devastating to her. So I continue going to the only friend who is ALWAYS there: Jesus.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I'd like to clear up my post. <P>Even though I don't think very highly of the OW, I don't hate her. She is a human and to be honest I can't think of any one I hate. I do feel sorry for her. She has to suffer from some type of problem to feel like she needs to be with MM. It's a pattern for her. I do NOT like her value system. She has no respect for others so obviously she has no respect for herself. <P>I am also angry with my H. I love him so the anger isn't as great. But believe me the anger is there or I wouldn't LB so often. I had no feelings for the OW before this so my anger is greater at her. <P>Again, I meant nothing about the people on this board.

New Beginning,<BR>I have to say I do agree with you, I don't think the OW in my mess is a complete scum sucking something, even though I should in some way. She systematically set us both up. She was acting as my freind while reminding my H of their past and how they were close once upon a time. She brought her H into our home and I fed them dinner and she hugged my kids and pretended to be so concerned about my H and I. And then the day after (Christmas no less) she screwed my H in the office that I had helped him to make. Yes, I do have some reason to be bitter, but I really don't feel that way now. It took me a long time. I knew she had problems. When my H told me she had told her H that she couldn't guarentee fidelity to him for 3 other people (My H, another guy and a woman) and he accepted it I knew she had problems. That would have been totally unacceptable in my book. I feel bad for her, because he really doesn't love her, he just wanted to "keep" her.<BR>I feel bad for her because her father never wanted her. I knew that she and her brother had lived with my in=laws for awhile when they were younger because they couldn't get along with their mother and their father didn't want them. This is so sad. She had no unconditional love in her life except what she thought she had in my H. Now shes back with her H and they are having twins. Though she still has unresolved issues. She hasn't worked them through and I know she still longs for my H. She sends messages not to him but to me through my SIL. Telling me she's gone on with her life and trying to prove how well she's doing. But we still have some unresolved issues between us they will continue that way. And I will be a much happier person then I ever was. Because I know, real deep down inside that no matter what happens now in my life, my H loves me unconditionally. I have her to thank for this. I know that hands down he would pick me any day over anything else. Yes, I should hate her but I don't. I am glad that she helped guide my H and myself into a better situation than I ever could have guided us into. God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!

New Beginning,<P>Well, well, well. You really started something here!<P>I agree with you that not all OPs are trash, but some are. Still, any married person who chooses to have an affair is equally at fault, at least.<P>In my situation, the woman my husband got involved with is not trash. I think she really fell for my husband. She is also married, but not happily. I know her husband and I can honestly say that I would not want to be married to him. Even though he has many good qualities, he is not a good husband.<P>This woman is attractive, kind-hearted, and forgiving. She is also very young and had a very unhappy life. She married very young to escape an unhappy home situation.<P>My husband did favors for her when her husband never had the time. He paid attention to her children and helped them with science projects, etc. because her husband had no interest.<P>My husband is very sexy, attractive, and flirty. She fell for him and stroked his ego. She is nearly young enough to be his daughter.<P>Do I blame her for my husband's infidelity? No, he made the choice. I hold her responsible for the fact that she betrayed my trust in her.<P>If I think of this other woman as trash, what does that say about my husband? That he preferred trash to me for a brief period of time. Also, if she is trash for becoming involved with him, he is certainly no better.<P>Dr. Harley says that anyone could have an affair given the right conditions, and I think that is true. Human nature is to look for someone to blame for our troubles. It is easier to blame the OP than the person that we love. Unfortunately, when it comes to infidelity, there is plenty of blame to go all around.<P>New Beginning, I wonder if you anticipated these kinds of responses. You have a way of provoking a lot of introspection. That is always a good thing, even if it is not always pleasant!<P>Peppermint<BR><p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited February 13, 2000).]

Sheryl,<P>Very interesting thread here. And I think that for the repentant ex-betrayers, that some of the comments made can really hurt fresh wounds. I think that those of us that made those bad choices to become involved have beaten ourselves up so badly, that nothing anyone else could say could ever hurt any worse. The moment a person who was involved in affair tries to offer some understanding behind their own situation and why they did become involved (or even saying it was a lack of thinking, immaturity, etc.) it becomes misconstrued as an "excuse", which there are none. <P>Because our vows are taken with our spouse, we only have our spouse to blame when they choose to stray. Of course there's going to be anger toward the OP because of their relationship with the person we love, but how many predatory OP's are out there? Many, I'm sure. And shifting all the negativity toward the OP is like putting a tiny bandaid on a gaping wound, that doesn't solve the problem, because when the OM/OW are gone, there are many more out there to take their place. <P>Another thing, affairs very rarely happen because a person is out looking for it, who would want to heap that type of pain upon their spouse? It may be symptomatic of problems within the marriage, or of insecurity, or immaturity, or of....?<P>Izzy, I've heard there are other commandments to be broken as well, not that it's any justification, but be careful how you judge those who are repentant for their past actions, and have and will continue to try to make up for it. What you have said can really hurt those who have been trying for awhile to right their wrongs.<P>Sheryl, I do have to agree with you about this...we don't know the OP's (doesn't mean we have to necessarily like them) but we may not have a clue about their own situations. I would say I choose to not even think about the OP that my husband had been with. I don't think she's worth the effort, because I don't know her. My H and I have been through problems, and we need to address those problems to better be able to ensure that our marriage is strong. Giving the OP any energy is counter-productive I think, when there are more important issues to deal with.<P>Connor

I don't have anything to "clear up" per se, but let me assure you... although I have compassion on the OW, she's not my favorite person, nor do I have a desire to get inside her head for understanding...<P>What I do understand comes from my own situation, and whether anyone *wants* to understand or not, in MY situation, I was in torment and despair before, during, and certainly AFTER the affair ended. <P>Maybe I'm not so different from other betrayers, and I'd like to think that we can find some compassion for each other... and I can see by your replies that indeed, the majority of people here DO!!!<P>I am so happy not to have been disappointed...

Hi sheryl, how is it going?<BR>Goos topic. And yes, of course you are right. Just people like our spouses, that at some point make poor choices. <BR>You know my opinion about it and that I agree with you. I do have to point out, however that - as other people said here - after the initial bad choice, after realising they were lied to, or mistaken or whatever might have been the case, after knowing about the wife/husband and children involved, after knwoing that the betrayer is making an effort to rebuild, continuing to make the same poor choices indicates to me, more than just lack of judgment. There are some ops that back off, when they realise what's involved. Ohters don't. In my case, you know that even after my H ended the affair and during a few months in the begining of recovery, she kept trying to maintain contact in any possible way, as well as trying to create conflict between us. That is not a poor choice anymore, it's a deliberate action.Her argument that she "had feelings for him" is in my opinion quite weak. I might take that one from a teenager in love for the first time, have trouble getting it from an adult. Yes we can get feelings, sometimes quite out of order, but we're capable of controling our emotions and balance them with our code of morals.To suggest that it's uncontrolable is quite illogical.<BR>In any case, and althoug sometimes from the way I write people might get the wrong impression, I am not obsessed with negative thoughts for the ow.Actually, I rarely think about her. During the affair I learned to see her as a consequence more than a cause, so she had no part in any of my goals.I was actually one of the "lucky" ones that had less problems separating my goals from the affair. I considered what happened my H's responsability, and if she helped it didn't take any responsability from him, he made the choice to have the affair, wasn't forced to do it. Later , I fell sorry for her like I would for any other person that was hurting - for she was. Right or wrong she had made her plans and they didn't work out -, later yet I decided my wishes for her were better luck next time, hopefully with a single person next time.I have nothing against her as a person, just some thoughts about her choices. <BR>Anyway, nice to hear ( read ? ) from you, I'll be e-mailing during the week.<BR>Hugs<BR>Kat

I agree that not all OP are pieces of trash. However, in my case, the OW has 4 kids and an H of 18 years. This was not her first affair. <P>She sent a letter to me (anonymously) pretending to be her H to let me know that she and my H have been "fooling around". I'm not sure I think of her as trash per say, but I do think she is a freak. Who would do something like that?<P>My H even hates her. He said he tried to break it off a couple of times and that's why he thinks she sent the letter. <P>She called me to "apologize", but then went ranting and raving on for about an hour and a half, lie after lie after lie. These lies were confirmed by my H's boss (whom they all know) and the OW's H. <P>I do apologize too if I have offended anyone by my words against the OP. My H was vulnerable and he's an alcoholic. He was looking for acceptance of his drinking which I didn't give him. That's the only thing he didn't get out of our marriage. Unfortunately, sex got involved, and her emotions. <P>Oh well. He's with me, and trying to work it out. There's been no contact for three weeks. There's been no contact from point of discovery on my H's part, it was her calling. Calling me and calling my H. That's been stopped.<P>Every situation is different. Unfortunately, my H got involved with someone less than stable. It's a shame. But, I cannot step down from my feelings for her. I know my H is just as much to blame, and he knows that. I know that. And, by no means, do I shift any blame from him to her. If anything, I blame the alcoholism for most of it.<P>My two cents. Thanks for reading.<BR>

Dear Sheryl<BR>You pulled me out of the woodwork on this one. <BR>You know me, You know my story.<BR>I look, search for the good in everyone.<BR>In my almost 40 years on this planet there are only 4 people that I haven't been able to find something good to say about. Not that I didn't try.<BR>I came to the conclusion that the bimbo was trash years before she slept with my H. She isn't trash because she slept with him. She is what she is. Women see it in an instant. Even my H's stepmother did.<BR>Men don't see it. She has a great act.<BR>Her agenda is that she is the center of the universe and the only woman here.<BR>So if anything I ever said about her caused anyone any discomfort I apologize.<BR>There is no one that I would ever put in the same category as this tramp.<BR>

The OW in my situation sounds just like the one in wasstubborn's. This woman also has no female friends because they are "competition" to her. Didn't like her before my H started sleeping with her.

I guess we are always looking for commonalities even though each case is different. And there are some:<P>While we are seeking a restoration of the relationship with our S, there is an opportunity to fix things with them. With the OP, the best thing is to let the resentment go since it won't help us in any way.<P>Who was it said on this thread that S doesn't go looking for an EA? Mine did, and at first I was hung up on it. I thought I could forgive more readily if it was a friendship that crossed the line.<P>If OPs are lied to, it would have to be harder to stop after they are "hooked". In my case both OWs knew the truth. One was at my house for Christmas and we oooed over each other's kids. She eventually said it was wrong and stopped maybe more 'cause he didn't have feelings for her. So why did it take months to get there?<P>The second one was also told the truth and was more brazen. She jumped in the sack on their first date.<P>All this is still painful, but in one sense, what difference does it make? I can hate the OWs, wish he had turned to me instead, that he had changed after the first OW. Instead, he thought, his next OW would have to be younger, more pliable. So, he sought her, but she was sooooo available. I can drive myself crazy with hurt and resentment.<P>In fact, it was accumulated resentment that kept me from meeting his needs (of course in hindsight) before the EMAs. I have never been good at forgiving, so now I face the toughest challenge ever. He is here, totally, wanting our marriage to work. The bimbos are history.<BR>I am trying hard, but I put up walls between us. I have made the decision to forgive, but I am still hurt, angry, insecure, defensive.<P>Yet, the choice is as clear today as on discovery. Put the past behind me, and really love this man (the only person I have ever loved my whole life) or hang on to my resentments. Of course I feel I'm very "right" to feel them.<P>He is here now, 100%. What many on this board dream of. I don't want to push him away!!!<BR>How do I relax and let myself enjoy being with him?????<P>He not only wants to be with me, he wants to address all my concerns. This seems radical, but we even talked about how I now feel about being a SAHM, that I've learned how vulnerable I am since I am economically dependent on him. I could go back to the workforce, but it would only be for this, I don't need to. I have preschoolers who need me, and another one on the way.<P>He suggested we have a legal agreement where we agree on the division of assets and support now. We would have to decide on the numbers, but I would know ahead of time that I'm not again risking everything by continuing to be a SAHM with him. It would certainly be enough to allow me to continue as a SAHM if I want to. (Very different from what he was dreaming up during the EMA).<P>It scared me badly that my kids would not only face divorce, but their mom going back to work. And my career had no light hours, only 60 hour weeks, travel,etc.

I have to agree here based on my experience! If the OP knows about the marriage, no matter what state it may be in at the moment, then they are not worthy of being upheld in any light.<P>The OW in my case had no idea she wasn't my H's one and only. They really only had a long distance relationship via the computer and we weren't even married at the time (just 3 weeks shy of the ceremony). <P>This OW was just as shocked as I was when I found her e-mail address and instant messaged with her. We talked on the phone a few times and she e-mailed a good portion of their e-mails to me (the words in those e-mails haunt me and I don't know how to move past them).<P>This OW has promised me that she wants nothing to do with my H and she will let me know if he ever contacts her again. I heard the hurt in her voice and I know I can trust her (I guess it helps that she lives over an hour away). We e-mailed with each other for a couple weeks until she told me it was too hard for her and she needed to move on with her life and forget this ever happened.<P>I like her a lot as a person, but we will never be able to share a friendship! I feel badly for her and pray for her happiness with another man who will live up to all he portrays himself to be.<P>God Bless!<BR>K<BR><><

I don't think that the OW is trash. I think she's a nice person who was vulnerable at the time my H contacted her. You see, she was his bookkeeper when he had his own business, and had a warm, albeit plutonic relationship at that time. It's been two years since he lost his business, and he's had a hard to coping with that failure. Anyway, he contacted her while she was going through her own divorce. His affection and attention must have been a bright light to her during that time, so she fell very much in love with him. He told her our marriage was over and that he'd soon be leaving me and it must have been so easy for her to believe him. My problem now however, is that he's told her that we are trying to make things work, and that it's over between them, and she keeps showing up at his work. She knows we have children, so knows he's trying to keep it together, yet she still comes around. That's where I'm having problems. Do you think I should talk to her?

Not <I>all</I> OP are pieces of trash - but most are! Those who are deceived by the betrayers and who don't know the truth about the relationship are innocent victims - just as much in the dark about the fact that their lover is married as the betrayed is in the dark that their spouse is unfaithful. However, those OP who are aware of the truth - that their lovers are married - are, IMHO, complete trash!!!<P>In my situation, I initially felt sorry for the OW because she was as deceived as I by my X, who was a master liar. At first she was told by my X that we were separated, that the relationship was over, that there was no more love between us. This is when I felt compassion and understading for her pain, confusion, and situation...<P>However, once OW discovered the truth she became ten times as hellbent upon chasing after my X. She relentlessly and ruthlessly pursued him, and callously went out of her way to inflict pain upon me. One time she phoned me to brag about their relationship and warned me to 'stay away from her man.' <P>I all-too-willingly obliged & left my X... After all, she proved that she was a complete piece of disgusting and spiteful trash. Human beings are attracted to people who are as good as or better than themselves. So what does that say about my X? ...That he is a piece of trash, or even worse, than the heavily drinking, heavy drug-using prostitute (and I mean this literally) he chose to become involved with...<P>Not once did my X ever express regret for placing my life in jeopardy by having sexual relations with a drug-using prostitue. Tells you a lot about them both, now doesn't it?<P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<P>