TS, <P>thanks for the reply. It was good. I will keep making the time we spend fun. <P>Should have done that a long time ago instead of building up resentments against his work.<P>I think JL gave you a very good response. But you seem to want to hear it so here goes - you have my full support remaining single. My mother has done it for 25 years and she says she's happy.<P>But I do think that we now have the skills to create a great marriage. And it does have to be created. First, you would have to find someone that "fits". And there are all types. As you know I had a career, for 12 years, but married a guy who would want me home with the kids 'cause that's what I wanted. There are guys who resent their wife being home while they work.<P>Jl is just saying keep an open mind. There are all types.

JL,<BR>You made alot of good points. I did feel guilty about my H moving and leaving his family and friends. You are right that I betrayed him at the worst possible time. However, this is alot deeper than just me going to school or not. At the deepest level, it was about me not trusting him to "take care" of me, and him being pissed off that I would not let him. It was a control issue. <P>He did not see any point in my going back to school, because he was so successful and, therefore, thought I should be happy enough and let him "do" for me. As I've pointed out so many times, I do refuse to allow someone to disguise their need to "take care" of me with CONTROL!!!!<P>He left me because he couldn't trust me anymore after I cheated, but what he failed to realize was that I stopped trusting him long, long before when he could not support me from his heart. I supported him completely, openly, happily, generously, because I loved him. I deserved the same. After the way I supported him, I DID NOT enjoy having to drag him across hot coals for two years to "keep his promise". He took my support for granted. <P>Not only that, he told me (before the affair) in no uncertain terms that he would never move for me again. In a sense, it was like he was saying "ok, I'll support you THIS time, but your're gonna PAY". I had already paid, according to me, when I supported him. But he couldn't see that, cause my support of him was something he took for granted. Something I was "supposed" to do? I was "supposed" to put my career second? Even his grandmother told him "don't let her go". I'm NOBODY's friggin SLAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>This was a goal I had before we were married. Even though you find this hard to believe, I purposely chose the school I did and even went back to school because I thought it would benefit BOTH of us, not just myself. Fact is, all he could think about was HIMSELF. He was happy with his own success, and couldn't give a rat's *ss about mine, and couldn't see how anything I could do (except kiss his *utt all the time) might benefit him. As someone else once told me, I was a "plug-in" wife. <P>You are right, at some level I did not like owing him. The price he asked me to pay in "return" for his support was too high. He made it clear that the price of his moving to support me was my servitude to him indefinately (like, he won't move for me again, he gets to decide what jobs we take, and there is much,much more). Problem is, I paid up front, JL. He didn't like owing ME, and took it out on me for a long, long time. <P>In one of Harley's articles about career choices, he recommends to a woman to end her desire to go to medical school in order to meet her husband's needs. Basically, he says that the H doesn't see anything in it for him (same as my H). Maybe the H should be counseled on how her goals can benefit him!!! This is the very basic problem I see with men who have a hard time supporting their wives. They have no incentive to support their wives' careers 1) because the H makes good enough money on his own, most likely, and can't understand why a woman would not be happy with his income 2) the time their wives spend on school/work takes away from what most men see as their wives primary duties and that is SERVING THEM (i.e. cookin',cleanin',having sex on demand).<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 20, 2000).]

Sounds like some people have lost hope.<BR>Thats all.<P>Sounds kinda sad but I am praying for those who need it<P>J

TS,<P>I know your H did you wrong. (Sounds like the title of a country song; and I like country ) But what I am what I am trying to address is your response to all of this.<P>You are right you don't have to marry, but if the issue of having everything even and accounted for and balanced and I won't do what they cannot do, etc is what this is about. Then there is a problem.<P>It is that problem I was trying to address. TS, as I said before, if your posts were happy and up beat, you were still continuing your Ph.D. program right now, or you were satisfied with yourself, and that came through here, I would have nothing to do here but swap engineer jokes with you.<P>But TS you come across as very unhappy. Unhappy beyond the issues of your marriage. Unhappy with people in general. That is not a good way to live. <P>This is what concerns me. I am not really addressing you and your marriage. That is done and over. I am addressing a smart young woman who is going to shut herself off from the potential of finding happiness in certain sectors of her live. While indeed it may come to pass that you don't ever find happiness in that sector of your life, it is not a good idea to do so just out of hand.<P>That is all we are discussing. At least I think that is what we are discussing. I cannot change a single aspect of your past life and neither can you. However, the lessons taken away from the past can be debated and that is where I am.<P>You have stated that the lesson you have learned is never to be near a man again. I think that is the wrong lesson to be learned from your experience. I think the lessons learned are far more optimistic and all encompassing than you do. Here is the subject of the debate.<P>Your time for true happiness whereever you find it will come once you have completed school. I think with you completing school, that it would be ashame to shut down part of you for fear of pain when you have/should have learned so much.<P>Have I defined the area of debate a little better, TS? I hope so.<P>God Bless, <P>JL

I believe if you do not think that a partner will make you happy, that you should move forward with your life by your own definitions. Only you know what's best for you, obviously.<P>I also think that if you were that content and happy with your decision, you wouldn't have to explain your actions and feelings, and would be moving forward with your life after your divorce.

Ok, I'm with ya JL. We can stop arguing about who hurt whom more, me or my H. It is completely obvious that we both hurt each other. It is very sad, because we are both still hurting.<P>He still calls me from time to time. I know there aren't alot of women out there like me for him. I'm very sad that I broke his heart. I'm very sad that I can't find within in me to trust anyone. <P>I am very unhappy. The reasons I pursued my PhD in the first place were very tied into the kind of life I wanted with my H. Now that that is over, I've questioned my desire for a PhD at all. I'm so depressed, that there are many, many things that I used to enjoy that I no longer do. <P>You have no idea what I've been through in my life. My dad tried to strangle me when I was 14 in one of his alcoholic binges. My mother did not protect me and my sister, partly because she did not have the financial resources to take us away. I vowed from a very young age that I would be able to take care of myself, for that reason. <P>I have always had a hard time taking things from others, because there is sometimes a very, very high price to pay in doing so. <P>There is a basic trust issue with me. Would you let someone drive you in their car if you weren't sure they were sober? What if you were afraid they would take you someplace bad and try to do mean things to you? At a very core level, I have a very hard time relying on people (riding in their figurative car), because I'm afraid of where they will take me. I'm afraid of relying on them, becoming dependent on them, and then having them abandon me after I've sold all of my "belongings" (i.e. goals). <P>Part of the reason I'm not enjoying the PhD much is because I've lost so much. The price I've paid for it has been very steep. On the other hand, as hard as it is, I probably would still choose it over some man, because a PhD is something noone can take away from me. <P><BR>

TS,<P>It isn't going to be a debate is it? I was afraid that these issues were what was really happening. Are you still going to leave the program for awhile? If you haven't put that into an ironclad decision, let us talk about that decision for a few days OK?<P>First, you are absolutely right. No one can take that Ph.D. away from you. Of course, now can take your B.S. away from or your life experiences. You are a very strong woman TS and that is what makes me wonder about your trust issue.<P>You had reason to fear many things with your upbring and experiences. But haven't you proven that you are strong? Do you recall the statement I made to about my size? Well let us take it a step further. If you know you are strong, then you can take risks that others cannot. Perhaps for you that risk will be to trust other people.<P>I think that you should continue for the Ph.D. Mainly because it has always been your goal. Secondly, it is unlikely you would have gotten this far without the drive and talent to do it. Third, it will make you stronger and better able to take risks.<P>Now you know that I am not a counselor. I cannot address in a deep way the scars from your past. I would suggest that you think about seeing a counselor for this very issue.<P>TS, I have never met you and very likely never will, but I have an image of you as a pretty driven person. A person, however, that really needs people, but is so very unsure of them. That is why I have been picking at this issue with you. I feel you can be everything you want to be professionally and a very happy person privately. I would like to see that happen.<P>You have made some mistakes in your life. Who hasn't , but you do have so much to offer. Go for the Ph.D. girl. You can do it and you will find that your enthusiasm for it will return. <P>I think this is especially true, if you seek some counseling not so much for the marriage issues, but the issues you just stated to me.<BR>Some of it will not be pleasant I am sure, but I feel that if you did something like that you could separate you feelings of dispair from you feels toward you goals.<P>What do you think?<P>JL

TheStudent,<P>I understand how you feel about not wanting to dependent on anyone. Especially about not wanting to be financially dependent on a man. I feel the same way. My father died when I was 3 (he was only 42). I apparently still have not gotten over it. It's still affecting my life. I watched my mother struggle trying to maintain a house and raise 5 children on her own. It was difficult for her. I promised myself somewhere along the line that I would not allow myself to be put into that situation, that I would not allow myself to become dependent on anyone for anything. I too am driven to succeed. I am a software engineer and make a considerable amount more money than my H does. My son calls me an overachiever. But you know, that vulnerable, insecure, needy three-year old girl is very much alive inside of me. Sometimes she cries out for attention and I don't know how to console her.<P>An odd pattern that I've noticed is that these issues with my father's death have surfaced in 13-year intervals. First, when I was 26, and now that I am almost 39. Probably not significant, but I found it interesting. It's also interesting that the major problems in my marriage started when my husband turned 42.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited March 20, 2000).]

First, I wanted to say THANKS for all the great responses. I just got back from a counseling session, at it was a good feeling to see all the posts!<P>Truthseeker and JL,<BR>I went to counseling for about a year back when I was about 30 to help deal with issues in my childhood. It took me that long to even really face all of the horrible things that happenened then. I can honestly say now that the recollection of those events don't have a strong impact on me and that I (finally) have a decent relationship with my parents. <P>JL,<BR>The reason why I told you about stuff with my childhood was so that you can see exactly why I'm driven. For someone to ask me to put my career aside is almost a life/death issue for me. When I first met my second H, I specifically said to him "do not ask me to choose". The conflict within me was similar to a situation in which, for instance, both my husband and my (theoretical) child needed a kidney transplant, and I could only donate one kidney. Which would I choose? <P>It is interesting that you bring up the issue of the PhD thing again, because I've been having second thoughts about leaving too. I told my advisor that I would be leaving, but I don't think anything is set in stone. The only thing I'd have to do is make sure I still have my fellowship, and that the head of the dept. hasn't promised it to someone else. <P>One of the reasons I wanted to leave is because I felt like my healing process was taking so incredibly long. I still go to school with the OM (we have the same advisor). However, now that my advisor knows what happened with my marriage,and that OM is part of that, it might be alot easier for me to move around campus without having to deal with slimeball. I won't have to explain why I won't be going to a party given by my advisor, or I can flat out ask him if slimeball is going to be there, for instance.<P>I do worry about appearing wishy-washy though.

TS,<P>Just to defend your exH a little although he doesn't need defending. Just recall there was no way he could truely appreciate your need to do this. He was not mature enough and wasn't trained in this area. Further, I doubt that you could have really explained it to him at the time, because to do so would have just told him you did need him and did not want to need him. Not a very uplifting message to hear from ones spouse.<P>You are doing so here only after more than a year of self examination and pain. You see. Part of your healing will have to let go of the anger for him and at yourself. <P>To be honest with you I have met very few really driven people that have not been driven by their past and specifically what happened to them while growing up. Sometimes, the experience was really positive and encouraged them, but most of the time the experience was negative and it stings them for their whole life. <P>It is just as you get older you realize where the sting is coming from and you learn not to project it onto your current situation. <P>But still it can be a good thing to drive you to do things you could not otherwise do. It seems in your case this is true. So TS think abit about things. Let go of the anger and guilt and go do what you know will give you satisfaction. That is my advice; worth every penny you have paid for it by the way. <P>God Bless,<P>JL