John C,<BR> I don't think you're being irrational.I don't blame you for not wanting to get hurt.Perhaps you should tell her that if she wants to talk to you,to do it on the phone for now.That way,you can just listen to each other,and not be swayed by her body language,or batting her eyes at you(Yeah,I've been there!).Sometimes a little bit of talking while you're together leads to sex,and then you forget just what you were talking about(been there,too!)Perhaps you can record your calls,then play them back to see if you notice any discrepencies.Just a thought.Take care.<BR> --Murph

Mr. John C:<P>From Dr. Phillip C. McGraw, PH.D. his view on your sense of trying to make it work.<P>Is there a point at which you have to admit…that it is just not going to work, cut your losses, and walk away?<P><BR>My answer is yes. If the relationship we are talking about is a marriage, I know that many Christian leaders would disagree. I confess that I am not nearly spiritually mature enough to believe that. Easy examples of when that kind of decision is justified in my mind, and in fact mandated, are found when the relationship is infected with physical abuse or drug and alcohol addiction and the partner refuses to acknowledge the problem or to make a sincere effort to get help. The harder call comes when all of the problems are matters of choice and personality. The harder call comes when both partners seem to want to make the relationship work, but just can't get there. I have two major thoughts that may help you in your decision-making process.<P>First, do not ever make life-changing decisions in the midst of emotional turmoil. When feelings are running high and language and rhetoric even higher, this is not a time to make decisions that will affect your life and that of your partner and children, if any are involved. NEVER BE IN A HURRY WHEN MAKING DECISIONS, THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHICH WILL BE AROUND FOR A LONG TIME!<P>If you are riding an emotional roller coaster, get on flat ground so you can take a rational and objective look at things before you start making life-changing decisions. Hopefully, the process of this book has flattened out your roller coaster enough to give you a better perspective on where you are.<P><BR>SECOND, If you are going to quit, you the right to quit. You don't just get mad; you don't just get your feelings hurt and decide to bail out. YOU EARN THE RIGHT TO QUIT! Until you can look yourself in the eye in the mirror, until you can look your children in the eye and say I did everything I could to save this relationship and it could not be done, then you have not earned the right to quit. Arrogant as it may sound, until you have done everything I outlined in this book, then I don't think you have earned the right to quit. You have to go through this process first, and if at the end of that process you can say, "All right, Doc, I did it all and it is not going to work," then you have to make a decision at that point.<P>I do not think you ever save a relationship by sacrificing yourself. That is not saving: that is simply trading prisoners of war. You may want to nobly say, "I am willing to give myself up for the relationship." But I feel about that like Patton did about war. He said, "I don't want to hear any of this crap coming in from the battlefield about good men dying for their country." He said, "Let them other sons of *****es die for their country. That is not my idea of victory, trading lives for ground." Similarly, I don't want you going out there and saying, "I will let my spirit die for this relationship." I don't want you to say, "I will give up my hopes, my dreams, my dignity, my purpose, my spirit in order to fold myself into this relationship." THAT IS NOT VICTORY! One entity may live and another entity dies, THAT IS NOT PROGRESS!<P>Trust me, if that is your approach, the relationship is not really living. It is just living on the spirit of one part of the relationship. That is a parasitic existence at your expense. You know that will not work long-term. Work hard to save your relationship. YOU DESERVE THE EFFORT, BUT I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE DAY MAY COME WHEN YOU HAVE A DIFFICUTL DECISION TO MAKE!<P>Phillip C. McGraw, PH.D.<P><BR>

Mrrlk,<P> You have given some valuable information. I don’t know if I can honestly say I did everything. Does I did my best for as long as I could bear it count? Which book is that from, I would like to order it. <BR>Thanks, you have given me much to think about<BR>

Hi JohnC -<P>Welcome to MB!!!<P>I have a lot I want to talk to you about but am on my way to bed for an early workday tomorrow....<P>Just wanted to throw this out there for you to consider about talking with your Wife....<P>I think that there is a certain pattern that you have fallen into with her...<P>You attempt to motivate her to do something and when she balks you retreat.<P>While she is in this "nice" mode, may I suggest that (following Murphy's phone call advice..) you challenge her. Say what you feel needs to change with firmness and stay firm when/if she starts with her antics.<P>Outline what you want this marriage to be.....not a complete overwhelming list, but a general common sense balance to the relationship. <P>Explain that this problem is something that needs to be acknowledged and worked on by HER and will not just go away cause she says so, etc. (or something to that effect)<P>See what her reaction is....let her think on what she wants and is willing to start working on about her behavior.<P>If she starts yelling or anything - simply say that she is not as ready to change as she needs to be and hang up!<P>At least give her some knowledge that you know how things can change and allow her the option of taking this apart time to really think!!!<P>What do you think?<P>I'll be back tomorrow....sleep, I need sleep!!!!! LOL!!<P>Big Hugs and Prayers for you,<P>Sheba

Dear JC,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mental illness – Our therapist came to the conclusion that she had Borderline Personality disorder. It is a very serious illness and takes years to recover from even if the person wishes to. After doing extensive research on the subject believe that she doesn’t have it, but has many of the same symptoms. If you would like more information on this you can go to <A HREF="http://WWW.BPDCENTRAL.COM," TARGET=_blank>WWW.BPDCENTRAL.COM,</A> It is a very well made site and has an enormous amount of information<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps your wife doesn't have BD/Personality disorder - but perhaps there is another problem. It sounds like she could be an Adult Child of an Alcoholic - many of the same things you describe fits in that category. In either case, control and blaming are dangerous scenarios for you and your wife. <P>No matter how thin you slice it, there are 2 sides. I hear some blaming going on with you as well. <P>When you go to family gatherings, do you use emotional control to get her to go with you? Have you considered POJA? Regarding the food issue, what is wrong with going grocery shopping together one evening, and taking your wife out to dinner that night - and as you are going through the grocery store you can "meal plan" together? You can let her pick what she likes to cook, and you can pick up things that you like to cook. This could be a chance at bonding.<P>It seems that your opinion is the only one that counts. What are her arguments regarding your family? Have you discounted her feelings? It would certainly perpetuate the arguments (every day for 2 weeks after a visit with your family).<P>It sounds like the major problem you both have, aren't due to your wife's "alleged mental illness", but lack of communication skills on both of your part. <P>And, it seems that there were mixed messages on your part when you were married. You odviously knew she couldn't drive when you were married. Now you are discontented with this. Did you have some different expectations with your wife upon marriage, that you did not communicate? Did you tell your wife that her not driving was expected to change? Is she afraid of driving? Is she afraid of learning something new - afraid of failure? <P>If she is afraid of failure - then, why not try smaller increments of measurement - smaller expectations, until there are some successes. <P>I think you said you were afraid of failure, too, right? So why not "mentally" chop up different situations into smaller pieces so that measuring can "mentally" feel like successes, and manageable.<P>I think that there is still something very strong between you two, and you both have some new skills to learn - and why not try and learn them together. I think especially, if you are both fearful of failure - this divorce will emotionally devestate you both - and you may have to re-learn these skills in another relationship - with the compounded problems of a previously failed marriage. <P>Really, I would encourage you to make a decision to try and learn better communication skills. <P>Welcome to the forum. You will have lots of support and applause as you work through these issues. These are great people, and I have seen tremendous personal growth. Stick around!<P>TNT<P><BR>

JohnC-<P>The short piece was from "Relationship Rescue" Phillip C. McGraw, PH.D.<P>More reading that may assist you..."Borderline Personality Disorder" Melanie A. Dean, PH.D. and "Adult Children" The Secrets of Dysfunctional Families John Friel & Linda Friel<P>Look them up on amazon.com to see more about their subject matter and content.<P>Hoping the best for you.<P>mrrlk

Trustntruth,<BR>You’re absolutly right, there are always two sides. I do have my own faults that I am always working on. I’m not content with how I am, I always know I can be better and strive for that. I’m not perfect , not even near. <BR>When we go to family gatherings she usually will go without saying anything. It’s when we get home that she has a problem. My family are very nice and morale people. They have always tried to welcome, and make her feel comfortable. At one time she said they were too nice. <BR>I usually end up doing most of the shopping myself. One in ten times will she go with me. When we are at the market she tends to want to get it over with and not spend much time thinking about what we can make. If I could cook I would. I have a knack for burning anything. I don’t know how…. But I do. <BR>She has never been able to say why she doesn’t like them. It seems that she can’t keep it to herself, she must make it known how she feels. I have noticed that she makes facts fit her feelings. Whereas, most people make there feelings fit the facts. If there is no truth or very little in what someone says, and they are unwilling to look at the obvious, it’s rather frustrating. For example, Our last couseling session together the therapist suggested that I try doing something nice everyday, out of nowhere. He turned to her and said Now whenever he does something nice, give him a good dose of appreciation. She immediately responded by saying I’m not going to thank him for every single ?>&^$*#@ breath he takes!!! (honest I’m not making this up). There is the flip side to this where she considers something of no importance. She has often said stupid arguments don’t mean anything. When I try to respond that any argument is damaging or at the least, not helpful to the relationship. She can’t accept this. <BR>Before we were married she would often talk of how the house would be spotless, dinner would be on the table, we wouldn’t have any arguments, and we could be together every night. Sounded pretty good. There were many things she had said she would take care of before we got married. She is not driving because she chooses not to. She often stated whenever someone asks her why she doesn’t drive, she says it makes her not want to drive anymore. I guess trying to prove something. I mentioned before we got married that before we have children she will need to learn how to drive. <BR>I have often asked her as a couple to work on individual issues. So as not to feel overwhelmed. I can usually stay focused but she tries to avoid the subject, or switch subjects. When I try to bring her back to the original one, she gets upset that I’m not letting her say what she has to say. <BR>I would agree we both need better communication skills. <BR>I can’t say I’m afraid of failure. I just don’t like to. <BR>Thanks <BR>