Mercy,<P>Your case is still one in recovery, so I consider yours a potential success. Also, your case is different from mine. You had very real reasons for being unhappy with your marriage because of your H's previous behavior. And you probably doubted for a long time that his changes were for real and that they would last. In your case I do see alot of potential for success.<P>sad2,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>When one spouse wanders- it is because they feel the need to be liked/loved/appreciated better than they are being treated by their spouse.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But my H has always been attentive to me. He has always shown that he loves and appreciates me. And I was still unhappy. the love was still missing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Do you feel liked/loved/respected by your spouse when you disagree...argue...are ignored, etc? Probably not! What are all those things? Poor communication techniques.<BR>If on the other hand, your spouse listened to you without judgement and you felt really appreciated and understood...wouldn't you have warmer feelings for them?!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We disagreed very infrequently. Never argued. Ignored? possibly at times. But he never acted as if he wasn't listening. He never passed judgment on what I said. He was just too passive about it. Didn't say much in return. Just looked and nodded. OK. I guess that felt like I was being ignored. Poor communciation skills.<P>I heard that Retrouvaille is a Catholic thing. Is that true? I haven't looked into it because neither of us is Catholic and, although Christian, we are very turned off by some of the Catholic teachings. I guess I can check out the web site and find out for myself. <P>Thanks for your input.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess I just need to find a way to be me and be in my marriage at the same time. It's probably possible, but still I doubt. And I am afraid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know that you're afraid---and that fear isn't motivating you, but rather paralyzing you. And your goals are very possible. That's why I'm suggesting Steve as a coach---he'll be able to motivate you to succeed very quickly, and you'll find yourself enjoying the success.<P>I'm assuming that you're depressed about Francis and her marriage. I'm very disappointed as well; but I've always been concerned about her. Her recovery was "too" quick, and almost too textbook. She went through a complete 2-year process in a little over a month. My concerns are that with her mental issues (manic depression, OCD) are overwhelming her abilities to cope with her marriage. She's pretty atypical in what she's dealing with, and you should try not to let her recent setback affect you too much (and who knows what will happen, in the end---she may come swinging back into the "marriage" again).<P>I will share this with you. I went through all of my counseling without this Forum (it didn't exist). I think that in some ways it made it easier for me. I listened and discussed things with Steve, and we worked on my behaviors. I got in trouble when I tried to use a local psychotherapist---that was "too many cooks" for me. I can't really imagine how I'd feel if I was using this board solely for advice---there's an awful lot of "noise" on these boards. Some people can filter it out effectively, while others can't. I'd probably be in the second category.<P>Again, your best bet (IMO) is to make an appointment with Steve (or his sister) and discuss this with him.

My counselor put the equation a slightly wordier way:<P>Women desire access to a man's soul.<BR>Men desire access to a woman's body.<P>I think if I, the betrayed, hadn't given up at about 18 months, we would be a success story. On the other hand, if I hadn't given up, Guard might not have realized what he had thrown away. My main mistake was allowing myself a friendship with a man. Guard specifically told me to find someone. Well, someone found me and met all those needs...<P>Now Guard wants to meet them. And I'm having a terrible time considering trusting him...and also letting go of the OM, even though we've broken contact.<P>But Truthseeker, I do believe Guard loves me, even though he had a long affair, and the temptation of her continues--she emailed him yesterday.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

TS, it took about 2 weeks after ending contact with the OM before I started realizing I was able to have those "feelings" for my H. As far as our relationship before the affair, it wasn't good, but at that time I thought that's just the way marriages are. We fought quite a lot, I would go out with my friends (had quite a bit of time apart doing our own social activities that didn't involve one another). We really didn't make each other a priority. I also think maturity has a lot to do with it. H and I were very young when we married (not only age-wise, but emotionally), and I really think that we had a LOT of growing up to do. We have learned to make one another a priority, spend most of our recreational time together, make dates. And we don't take one another for granted like before (well, most of the time )

Believe it or not the Catholic church actually devised a solid,helpful program to help marriages in dire straits.<P>But, there is nothing "Catholic" about it. Christian yes! When you attend the program or talk with the guest speakers you will find that they intentionally gear their program to the Christian community. There are no Catholic rules that are asked to be followed or preached about. We asked couples on our own and found out there were about 4 religions present...but we didn't approach everyone.<P>The best thing about the program is that you work on stuff only with your spouse. There is no group sharing! My H was very hesitant to attend if he had to share our stuff...but we were never asked and actually discouraged from voicing our personal stories. The only time we voiced an opinion was at the end when the guest speakers asked those who felt comfortable to share what they thought they had attained from going through the program. Hearing others tell their opinions on that was very refreshing...but there were not any "confessions".<P>I'll tell you that I was initially impressed that past Ret. attendees met us as we got out of our car to help us with our bags...there were a lot of couples who had driven there and then sat in their cars talking... They(past Ret.attendees) understood how tough it was to just get in the car and show up...let alone walk in the door...and it was evident from watching couples faces that it wasn't easy for one or both to attend. But by the end of the program...my H even mentioned there were a lot more smiling faces then expected. The majority of us were surprised with ourselves...that we got through it and ended up on far greener grass than we anticipated!<P>I encourage all to visit the web site and make the initial call.

sad2,<P>Thanks for responding about the Catholic thing. Now my next quesition - how much do they preach about "Staying together because it's God's will" and "Don't let Satan tempt you" and that sort of thing? If it's at all preachy my H will be very turned off and I won't be far behind him.<P>We attend church (Unitarian Universalist/Congregational combo) regularly (since the sh** hit the fan around Christmas time) but we aren't entirely religious. Spiritual, yes - religious, no.

Truthseeker.<BR>They don't shove it down your throat at all.<BR>Allen and I attended in October.<P>It is a wonderful program and you will learn a ton about you, your spouse and how to communicate.<P>Cat

Thanks, Cat. <P>Please don't take this as an insult or anything, but knowing your situation makes me wonder how much it really helps. Are you and Allen still using what you learned there?

Truthseeker... Not at all! I'm sorry, but it made me giggle. I totally understand your thoughts. It was all organized very well, presented in a truely non-threatening format, was done on a personal level (by the various speakers who had failed marriages) and never a word about Satan, etc. It really touched our hearts- <P>The program gives you a concrete,organized, but natural format for you to follow. I was astonished by my husbands enthusiastic approach to this technique. It is not something you learn and discard...it becomes an essential/natural way to communicate. It doesn't even take a lot of time...you actually gain time!<P>The program does offer continued support- they don't just expect you to walk out the door and "get it". Which was great...because all of our problems were not solved in one session. It's a solid process.<P>We both believe our progress would not have happened without Ret. Visiting a counselor 1 hour a week to vent our frustrations wasn't helping us to gain ground. Yeah, we'd make discoveries, but we weren't really doing any constructive brick laying. As they say...you can't build a house unless there is a solid foundation.<P>Most of the men that went through the program expressed relief that there was now a place they could rely on to give consistent examples of healthy marriages. We were at the point that listening to the radio or watching TV was making us mad...the media does nothing lately, but discuss affairs, divorce, or abuse. <P>This is my personal thought: If society could make a decision to reinforce healthy marriages, the divorce rate wouldn't be 50%. We went to school to learn stuff. But, when it comes to being married, people assume that "love will keep you together". Now all of us here know that isn't so. Staying together with the same person for years on end is tough! Every marriage has cycles. Even the examples we have of couples who have been married for 25+ years- don't always show us an example of a healthy relationship. So, that is how I thought about going through this program. <BR>1. Would I rather learn what I need to know to make a marriage work... <BR>2. Settle into a dysfunctional relationship where I'll be miserable for the rest of my life... <BR>3. or be the statistic and take my kids through rough times. <P>(I had been a child of divorce and I lived it)<P>Sorry I got off track a little... <P>Visit the web site...make the call. What do you have to lose? How can things get any worse? You have everything to gain.

I did check the web site and it turns out I just missed one in my area last weekend. the next one is in September. We're going away camping with another couple the first week of August. (I'm planning on bringing lots of books so I can bury my head in them if things get too tense.) Maybe after that I'll be ready for it! I'll talk it over with my H and see what he thinks.<P>Ditto on the joint counseling. My individiual counsleing has done more to help us than the joint counseling right now. probably because I have some internal stumblinig blocks to get past before I can focus on the marriage.<P>But there are some communication patterns that need to be broken. So I guess it can't hurt, not too much anyway Certainly not more than the alternative...<P>