grandpabri,<P>I'm going to bow out of this thread NOW....I've read your post....IMHO: You're comming inot this forum with a sense of moral superiority....don't judge me and give me the answers I'm looking for....this is a forum for those trying to save marriages that involve improving the relationship between 1 man and 1 woman....what are you expecting to find here? (rhetorical) "Well if you meet these needs for W and these for GF,,,then they combined can meet these for you...." READ THE PRINCIPLES TAUGHT HERE!!! <P>You've asked the question and what answers I at least can give you....your "marriage" is a mess....you're dealing with so much....make your life simple....ditch the GF and make your W your number one focus....<P>Maybe you should step back and look at your situation logically and not emotionally....grad school should have taught you how to be objective....(I developed those skills there)...<P>I only wish you the best....you sound like a great guy with a lot of compassion for others in your heart....PLEASE take the time and objectively look at the priciples taught here....<P>May You Find a Resolution....

Only in Cali, only in Cali!

Oh, well, you don't know me yet, and I really was gonna stay away from this, but I just can't. One of those eternal optimists, I guess, just have to try to problem-solve. Oh, and btw, if you haven't noticed, I talk too much. Doesn't bother me. You, know, a lot of what you've said is a bit foreign to me, the lifestyle and stuff, but that's ok. I'm probably one of the most non-judgemental people you'd ever meet. But one thing REALLY bothered me....<P>"She drove the bus off the cliff - I tried to stop it"<P>Now, I don't doubt one bit that in your heart you feel that way and truly believe it. But, you know, I wonder if it's really true. She may have been behind the wheel and steering that bus, like a lot of our spouses, but, as many of us have discovered, we sorta filled it with gas and cut the brake and steering lines, gave rotten directions, and then got annoyed 'cause they wouldn't stop as we yelled "Hit the brakes!!" Ok, bad analogy, but you've got the idea.<P>You know, I don't think anything is ever hopeless. And, no, I'm not a blithering idiot, but a relatively intelligent mature woman with a decent education and tons of experience. (OOOHHH, I sound pretty conceited, huh?) So I'm gonna give just a little more advice and then, I promise, I'll TRY to shut up! First and foremost, as a peer of sorts (my background is in psychology as well), don't even attempt to examine this marriage or your wife with your hard-earned knowledge. And now you're saying "I don't", but it's awfully hard not to (speaking from experience, of course!! ) Or the effects on the children or your girlfriend or anything else for that matter. (You'll notice I'm not throwing that stuff in your face, so that's not an insult.) Fact of the matter is, no matter how gifted you are, 1st rule, you're too close, you have pre-conceived notions (because you're HUMAN) and you can't view the situation objectively. I don't care who you are or how good you are, you just can't.<P>Secondly, I had to open my mind just a bit to get through this mess, and from listening to you, I'd say you have the same task. There's an awful lot about human relationships that we don't learn from example or from traditional studies. And though I may have originally dismissed some of what I found here as bunk, I've learned differently. Like me, my friend, you could use a bit more information on the reality of affairs and the turmoil of the spouses who have them. Take a while and read and learn all you can from here. It's certainly not what I was taught, probably not what YOU were taught either, but I find it's closer to the truth than any of that.<P>And now to the big question....after reading and learning and soul-searching, you need to make a bunch of decisions. The first and most important one.....do you want a REAL relationship with this woman in which you are both happy and fulfilled or do you just want things back the way they were. 'Cause to tell you the truth, even with all the problems you seem to think she has, that doesn't seem like the life I'd love to go back to...lotta work, little rewards. This is a BIG question.<P>Now, ok, another thing bothered me...sorry, not picking on you, just trying to sort it out. You're the "checker". You asked if everything was ok and all she had to do was TELL you. PUHLEASE. You're smarter than that. You appear to be an extremely intelligent man and you can't believe that, in an unhappy state, a woman who YOU describe has a serious problem with depression, among other things, is gonna, first of all, be able to put her finger on exactly what may be bothering her and secondly actually be able to articulate this to you, since SHE'S the one who helped start this stuff in the first place!!! Come on, now. You know better than that. No matter what the agreement is for honesty, that's being a bit unrealistic, don't you think? Just asking, no matter what the relationship, many times is just not enough. We have more responsibility than that - you doubly so because of the lifestyle you've chosen. Not condemning, just pointing out that it's hard enough to foster open and honest communication b/n TWO people who trust each other - to add a third, well, could make it harder. <P>Ok, I'm gonna shut up now. Just wanted to give you a few things to think about. Already recommended Plan A and I stand by that. Just remember, that only 10% of plan A is being good to your spouse, the rest is personal growth.<P>Good luck to you.<P>Lori

I believe there is a place for polyamory people to discuss their problems. Ran across this site once think url is <A HREF="http://www.lovemore.com" TARGET=_blank>www.lovemore.com</A> <P>Hey NeverAgain no remarks about us Californians! LOL Many of us lead boring lives "normal lives"<p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited April 20, 2000).]

Nowhereman: I have no sense of moral superiority. I came to this forum, just as most others do, because I am a person with a problem. My situation is a bit different than most. I did not come in here saying that it was better, that I am superior to you, just that it was different. Despite this, my problem (remember why I came here) is similar to all of yours. I thought I might be able to get some insight from others.<P>Lotsva: People don't seem to be real big about responsibility around here. Yes, I did contribute to our breakup. Nothing is ever *all* one persons fault. However, it is the responsibility of all parties involved to make their wants and needs known. I understand the point you are trying to make about not bringing in the professional, but that is part of who I am. I try to keep it out, and feel that I do a reasonable job. I know that I can not view the situation objectively. That's why I go to therapy.<P>Do I expect her to tell me if there is a problem. Yes, I do. It is her RESPONSIBILITY before she makes a decision that will affect her children like this one has, to exhaust EVERY other possibility. She didn't do that. It is her RESPONSIBILITY to ask for help, if not from me (I couldn't do it anyway), then someone else.<P>If you haven't noticed, I'm not big on the hearts and flowers love stuff. Bet y'all are surprised with that one. Making a family, whatever the configuration, is much more about commitment, shared responsibility, and building something bigger than yourself. To base such a serious undertaking on a transient emotion like romantic love is, in my opinion, a disservice to your children and irresponsible. Maybe that is why she left in the first place. Back to square one agian, huh?

Grandpabri,<P>You keep proving my point....you're trying to convince us that your problem is similar to ours....but, it's not....<P>You're trying to apply principles that are designed to repair or strengthen one relationship; between one man and one woman...but, you're not dealing with just the relationship between you and your W; but, two others...W and GF plus you and GF.<P>You, for whatever your reasons, have relied on the GF to meet some of your W's needs....maybe the needs she was lacking 3 years ago were needs that a man needed to meet and the GF was just a band-aid. Now she's getting them met by the OM. And I'm not talk sex here....maybe, romance, affection, conversation...see the list.<P>You came here asking advice....now you've gotten it and you really don't like it. I can see it in most of your responses. Just like your most recent to lostva....i.e. responsibility....You need to take responsibility for helping to create this situation and fix it....not this is the way we chose to live....well if this is how you want to live....face the consequences....you're dealing with too many close, intimate interpersonal relationships. Most of us [men] have trouble meeting the needs of one woman....I just can't imagine two....plus the needs of children.<P>If you really want your W back, show your W that she is the ONE you want....end the relationship with the GF and focus 100% of your emotional energy on meeting your W's needs....<P>READ THE PRINCIPLES HERE....they are hard to take....I still fall way short....but, I take responsibility for many of the shortcomings in my marriage....just about everyone here does.<P>Look, you're a smart man....but, really stand back and look at your situation....Could it be that your W wants the affections of you and you alone? To run off with the OM....this could be a possiblity.<P>I wish you the best....<P>

Grandpabri,<BR> This will be my last attempt to get you to see what's obvious to the "rest" of the world"<P> You said:<BR>"My morality is not the same as yours. Get over it. I don't pass judgement on you, I would expect the same. You have said your piece, and I disagree. End of subject"<BR> <BR> This is not about "My morality" or "Your Morality" my concern is the children who have to sit back and worry about this mess. I really don't care HOW many wives you have, that's not my problem. But what type of response did you expect from MONOGAMOUS God serving people? <BR> Go to a "Lakers Game and cheer for the Celtics. WHAT CAN YOU EXPECT? For people to RALLY behind you and YOUR cheers? To turn on THEIR beliefs to protect YOUR feelings. This is the kind of selfish thinking that got you where you are today. <BR> <BR>You said "a disservice to your children and irresponsible" <BR> We (the Laker/monogamy fans) see this as a joke because you are NOT taking your CHILDREN'S feelings into consideration! AT all! It's only a 50-50 chance with TWO people, why raise the odds that your children will have to grieve over the loss of a "MOTHER" or double the chance to let them see you argue, or take money out of THEIR future to satisfy your (and your W's) sexual desires? THAT is where your "unusual situation" breaks down. It's built on VERY selfish principles and was bound to disintegrate. Odds were stacked against it. This is why God suggests otherwise, he's a little smarter than us. <BR> What if GF was the one that left? What would you have done then? What recourse would you have to "slow her down"? <BR> What would you tell your children? Mommy and I are still here and we'll get another<BR>mommy #2 for you guys so you can STILL feel SPECIAL? <P> And I'm willing to bet that your ONLY Wife really ALWAYS wanted JUST you and this OM is filling that need now. She probably brought GF in as a last ditch effort to get your attention and it backfired. Well, that's my last stab at this. Again, I'll pray for you and your Wife and children , but I can't pray for your "Unusual" situation because of the children's hearts. GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

I know, I know, I promised I'd shut up. Ok, I will - eventually.<P>You know, I've not been beating you up. You came here with a problem and I've really been trying to do the best I can to come up with reasonable questions and viable solutions to that problem. I've read and re-read the posts, given your problem a lot of thought. Taken you just as seriously as anyone else who comes to this board and tried to pass on to you the things that I have learned. There are others who have posted who have tried to do the same thing. But, I gotta admit, at this point, all I seem to hear from you are justifications. Now believe me, you're not hearing anything that's any different than what I've said to others on this board at one time or another. Above all, as friends, we count on each other to be honest. We're of no help to each other if we are not and I've depended on that "slap on the hand" to help me get my head straight on a number of occasions.<P>I am dismayed at your hardline statement that it was your wife's responsibility to TELL you, oh, whatever. Either you have a LONG way to go in your understanding of human behavior, normal and especially depressed human behavior, or, as I said before and I tend to believe, you're too close to this situation to see things objectively. That's NOT a put-down. We all find ourselves in that place from time to time. There can be, and most likely were hundreds of reasons why she COULD not articulate these problems to you....and if she really does have some of the emotional problems you mentioned, then it would be impossible, yes, impossible, for her to do so. Touting responsibility is just fine, but not when that person is not capable of what you expect them to be responsible for. Heck, I couldn't even count the number of times I've read "He/she should have TOLD me!" on this board. They don't, they can't, it's normal, it's human, end of story. Many times it's due to problems they have within themselves and many times it's due to barriers to honesty that WE'VE inadvertently set up. Either way, most of us learn very quickly that MOST OF THE TIME, they just CAN'T.<P>I don't know, Grandpabri, maybe I'm just misunderstanding things here. I really have been trying. What are you looking for from us? You have received a bit of anger and judgements from some - hey, you expected that, right? But I've re-read both posts and you've also received advice and opinions from people who really are trying to help. Pretty constructive stuff that we've found (the hard way) really does work. But it seems to us (ok, me, I won't speak for the others) that you simply dismiss things out of hand without considering it.<P>So, my friend, what is it that you want? If you are looking for confirmation that you should simply give up on your wife and your marriage because of her behavior and her problems, you won't find it here. We are MarriageBuilders and that is our primary goal. Many of us have spouses that have done as much or more as yours and we have chosen, by coming here, NOT to give up on them or our marriages. That's why we're here. To learn more about the dynamics of this behavior and acquire the skills we need to cope with it and turn it around. For some of us (me included) it has worked. My husband and I are enjoying a wonderful recovery and a relationship that I didn't know was possible for ANY two people!!! You won't find many recent posts from me about our problems. There are very very few these days. I'm here mostly in the mornings during a little free time to check on friends and try to "give back" a little. The kind and wonderful people on this site saved my marriage and my life....and I am forever in their debt.<P>So, I, for one, need to be a little clearer on what you're looking for from us. You can argue that you're right from now until doomsday (about your wife and your marriage - forget the other stuff) and you will not get a different reaction from us. Do you need to be RIGHT or do you need to save your marriage? We are here to support people who want to save their marriage. If all the stuff about your lifestyle wasn't even here, you would STILL be getting some of the same advice...because, to save a marriage, it works. And we are here to save marriages.<P>I have no problem with the fact that you're not the "hearts and flowers" kinda guy. And no one here expects you to undertake trying to change a personality trait. However, most of us have learned that changing little habits in order to make life more pleasant for our spouse is not very difficult at all and becomes quite pleasurable when we reap the rewards. We don't sell ourselves out or change as a person, we simply develope new habits that will strengthen our marriage. Fundamentally, I don't really believe that people just "change". But I DO believe, that when we look carefully and reach deep inside ourselves, we find all the wonderful things we are capable of being, things that are already there. And that's what we try to do here, find the best in ourselves and bring it to the surface to share with the world, our spouses in particular. And most all of us are happy that we did.<P>So, if you're here to get help to save your marriage and become the best person YOU can be, then welcome and keep on posting. You'll find loving and caring people who will do their best to support you. If you're looking for more people to say "get rid of her, keep the kids.....bring her home, on YOUR terms", sorry, darlin', but you're in the wrong place. We are, as I said before, MarriageBuilders. We are not here just to keep people together, although that's a start, but to build relationships that are happy and fulfilling to both partners.<P>Once again, good luck to you. We're here, when you're really ready to listen.<P>Lori

grandpabri:<P>I've been debating whether to post here, mainly because I'm feeling that I'm wasting my time, but I'd like to point out a couple of "flaws" in your logic (and hey---I had the same ones):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do I expect her to tell me if there is a problem. Yes, I do. It is her RESPONSIBILITY before she makes a decision that will affect her children like this one has, to exhaust EVERY other possibility. She didn't do that. It is her RESPONSIBILITY to ask for help, if not from me (I couldn't do it anyway), then someone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you haven't noticed, I'm not big on the hearts and flowers love stuff. Bet y'all are surprised with that one. Making a family, whatever the configuration, is much more about commitment, shared responsibility, and building something bigger than yourself. To base such a serious undertaking on a transient emotion like romantic love is, in my opinion, a disservice to your children and irresponsible. Maybe that is why she left in the first place. Back to square one agian, huh?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd suggest that you read the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8500_fft.html" TARGET=_blank>"food for thought"</A>) articles here, including:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8503_fft.html" TARGET=_blank>But no one told me!</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8506_fft.html" TARGET=_blank>How do you know if your spouse(s) is (are) in love with you</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8502_fft.html" TARGET=_blank>But you promised!</A><P>You have a very logical, analytical way of looking at relationships. Congratulations---except it doesn't work that way in the real world. You do need to take responsibility to offer your wife help, and love and support. Romantic love isn't necessarily transient, and it IS THE MOST CRITICAL COMPONENT of successful, happy long term marriages. Instead of intellectually dismissing that, you ought to be working on it with your wife (like leaving a flower...). You'll be surprised at the effect.<P>The MarriageBuilder's technique is aimed at traditional marriages, obviously. Remember that 50% of marriages end in divorce, it's even more difficult to keep a triangle relationship together for an extended period. Let's do some mathematical modeling and assume a "coin flip" scenario. If you're either both heads or tails, you're happy. If your mixed (head/tails) or (tails/heads) you're not. Throw another coin into the works. You have the same constraints. The 50% divorce rate would become 75% for a 3-person union, just based on an extension of the mathematical model. <P>But this assumes no additional factors, and you know that's not true. You're going to be very hard-pressed to have the marriage that you want, under these conditions.<P>I would suggest that you work very hard learning what it takes to sustain romantic love in a relationship. I would apply that with your wife. It's difficult, if not impossible to include a third person in this scenario, but if you feel that you must, then you should still try to abide by the "Four Rules for Successful Marriages". <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by K (edited April 21, 2000).]

I really don't have time to give this the attention it deserves, but I wanted to post to this topic.<P>What this really sounds like is what the book "Surviving Infidelity" (I can't remember the author, sorry) called "an open affair." Please note, I said "open AFFAIR" not open marriage.<P>This book describes the situation as one in which a spouse knows about the other's affair but does nothing about it and may even encourage it so that the status quo of the marriage continues.<P>It sounds to me (and I know I've only heard a portion of what all is going on) like GrandP and Wife#1 started a conventional marriage (and I'm assuming that when you started out you didn't discuss any possibilities of an unconventional marriage in the future?), were confronted by an affair and chose to incorporate that new person into both of their lives as a solution to the difficulties that caused the affair.<P>I am guessing that this situation was probably not quite so okay for Wife#1 as she may have lead GrandP to believe, or even admitted herself. She is the one who initially went off and had an affair and in the midst of the fantasy found that her husband was willing to keep the fantasy going (remember that addiction that goes on with affairs?). So for a while everything was okay. <P>Then I'm betting she realized something wasn't okay for her. It doesn't seem to me that she's taken the time to figure out what exactly it was that wasn't okay, but it surely seems that she decided something was not okay with this situation. Her response was to do what she did the first time something wasn't right with her marriage, i.e., have an affair.<P>As an aside, GrandP, I find it interesting that you refer to the second woman as "Wife#2", not "Wife's Girlfriend." It would appear that the group dynamic has shifted somewhere along the line so that W#2 is more closely aligned with you than with W#1. It sounds like you are now having an affair with her.<P>I know that you all came up with the three-parent family as a group decision, but I don't think that everyone was thinking very clearly at the time. Undoubtedly you were in pain from your wife's infidelity and she was in fantasy land in the midst of an affair. Somewhere along the line you got into the fantasy as well. And W#2 gets a certain sense of security without committment, which might have been a good thing for her. It seemed like a win-win situation all around, but it ended up skidding out of control it would seem.<P>I don't think there is a way that you can go back to the threesome, GrandP. I don't think that W#1 is getting what she needs from that situation. I don't know that she is self aware enough to accurately define what is wrong, but it really looks like she is unhappy. There really is very little support for this lifestyle in the US today, and I don't know that you will be able to make it work.<P>I'd say the ball is in your court, GrandP. I think you need to decide if W#2 is really the one you want to be with (remember, you've got some of the "affair blindness" going on with her--things might change if she becomes W#1) or if you want to go a difficult trek and get right with W#1. <P>Neither road will be easy. Either one you take, I suggest that you make sure that everybody involved knows all of the ground rules before you start out--including you! If your spouse marries just you, it really isn't fair to change the rules later on and say, "Okay. I see you're unhappy so let's have a group marriage." If that's what you want, I suggest that you make that clear to the other party BEFORE the vows are exchanged. I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to place a small, unspecified wager that's one of your current difficulties. W#1 signed on to be W--with no numeric designator. She was unhappy for some reason and had an affair, but I don't think that adding her girlfriend as your second wife helped in the long run.<P>Whatever you do, keep hugging that little boy and ask yourself, What is the best thing that I can do for my son?<P>Good luck to you, gramps.<P>And to everyone else out here--let's try to avoid namecalling. I know I get on my soapbox sometimes, but I try not to call folks "twisted" or "unnatural." This isn't a solution folks here would suggest, but it is something that happens more often than one would think, and not just in California.<P>Above all else, grandpabri is a person in pain, and that's who we're here to help, right?<P>Okay. End lecture--and I'm sure someone will find some of my less than loving posts to call me a hypocrite. I guess I am just like grandpabri--human.<P>--HBC<BR>______<BR>WWJD?

This will be my last post on this topic. I want to thank all of you (even those that were close to flaming) for your input and support. You do not know how much it means to me.<P>Here is my bottom line: I think that the best interests of my children would be served if they had an intact family. Probably the best for them would be a traditional 2 parent family.<P>However, that being said, I cannot live with the person that I have been married to for the last 9 years. I could give a hundred reasons why, however to most of you it would seem that I am trying to justify my decision. It is my hope that we can at some future date reconcile for the sake of the children and have an honest and open (not that way) relationship. Unfortunately, I do not see that happening at this time.<P>I will continue to try to work things out with my wife, even though the divorce is a foregone conclusion.<P>I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. Know that I have all of you in my thoughts and wish the best for all of you.<P>Good Luck<P>Brian