One thing that I don't seem able to figure out is why the betraying spouse in many cases (always?) acts very cruel/distant/cold in addition to all the other cruelty you impose on the betrayed spouse.<BR><BR>Why is that?<BR><BR>I guess it is one way of dealing with guilt, but it would be interesting to hear this from someone who has been betraying their spouse. <BR><BR>scandinavian

Scan,<P>I really cant answer that question. This is my experience. I tis like the person that you once knew isnt the same. I am a very loving person. I NEVER WAS IN THE AFFAIR! I was full of resentment, hate, hurt, and anger. You focus on all the negative. <BR>The person that you are dealing with now, is not the person you once married. <BR>This is such an addiction taht they never see how mean they are. All they now is they are in love.<BR>Hope this helps<BR>Renee<P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!

I'm the betrayed, but now that we are recovering ( ) very nicely, every now and then Robert remembers something he did or said that was horrible. But, you know what, he doesn't remember why. He can't remember what he was thinking, why on earth he would DO such a thing and is embarrassed and ashamed and guilty that he did.<P>Guess this is a good example of the addition and fantasy thing, huh?<P>Lori

I always say that i had an evil twin. She was very mean and nasty. <P>I felt like I was living two lives. ONe with my H and the other with OM. I cannot really explain why perhaps but I can tell you we have acted the same way at one time or another. I think it may be because of teh guilt. And maybe if you are decent and talk with your S, you may give yourself away. <P>I always tried to say, " I do not want to be a fake" I could not reassure and tell my H that i loved him(i didn't) or hold him(didn't want to) or even have converstaion(would have given my secret away). I wanted out of my marriage and being rude was a back up to what i was already doing.<P>My H and I are in recovery now, going on 4 weeks.<P>I hope this helps a bit...<P>Mercy

Thanks for asking this question. I appreciate those betrayers that are answering too. Its so hard not to take it personally and wonder what you did wrong, why this person who always treated you well is now treating you so badly, looking at you with disgust and coldness. I think that is what makes plan A so hard for me, not just getting no response, but gettting a negative one.

Hello....<P>You can read my other posts and see my story.... it has been 6 months since discovery.... YES... I know exactly what you mean... sometimes they are so very cruel... I feel exhausted, like there is no progress and once in a while feel like saying GET OUT !!!! Then, I feel like I just want to get on with my life and then I get this sudden charge to do everything I can to save my marriage....<P>Sometimes I think to my self... "ok, I wasn't the perfect spouse.... I didn't have the affair, so why am I working my butt off to save this marriage????? I feel like its all on me....<BR>I'm sorry I'm rambling, but its just one of those mornings...... I feel defeated at times and this is now !<P>I've been talking to Steve Harley and my H spoke with him just once... Steve would like to talk to him again next week sometime....<BR>(this was just an update)<P>Take Care and my thoughts are with you....<BR>Scoick

I'm a "betrayer", and I have a couple questions for those of you (seemingly most of you here) who've been betrayed.<P>You ask why "we" act so cruel, I want to know why you can't let go. Feelings and people change, it's a fact. Things don't work out "right" sometimes, that too is a fact. <P>Why would anyone in their right mind want to be with someone who doesn't love them? I had an affair, but that's not the cause of my separation from my husband. When he found out, I finally realized that there was no reason to put off hiding my feelings anymore. I'd been out of love with him for a long time. My affair happened because, in my mind, my marriage was just a technicality. I felt it had been over for a long time, and while I should have separated the instant I realized I was no longer in love with my husband, I'm still not sorry about my affair.<P>Why do the betrayed have to be so blind? Why can't you just realize what I've realized? It's over, it's done, move on. Feelings change, and it's not a bad thing. It's just a thing. Don't you suppose that it'd be much healthier for you to accept that this has happened, wish each other well, try to get along during and after the divorce for the sake of your children if you have any, and go forth with your life.<P>It's not real love if only one person feels it. And no amount of effort on your part is going to fix anything if your spouse doesn't love you anymore. It's not as complicated as you all want to make it. It's as simple as it can possibly be. Just get over it. Wake up and move on and maybe someday, you'll find the person you were actually meant to be with.

To Packrat,<P>People and feelings do change,and that is why the betrayers here continue to work at their marriages.<P>I have read many posts from people who say that their S's didnt love them,and after several months their S's made a complete turnaround. <P>This why we work on our marriages,becauese we love our S's,and there is hope.bethnm

Packrat,<P>Thank-you for your frank response to the question of cruelty. You revealed the fact that you and most other betrayers don't believe in, or are not capable of working on a relationship. You believe the myth that love is something that just "happens", and when it's gone, it's time to move on and find someone else to fall in love with. And when that love fades, move on,...etc.<P>The fact is lasting love is the result of two people sharing the responsibility of maintaining the relationship.<P>You asked "I want to know why you can't let go?" My answer is that we honour our committment, and feel a deep love that endures pain. Now, either that you can understand that or you cannot.<P>Having an affair is cruel because it means knowingly inflicting pain on someone. The fact that you are no longer in love with that person (your betrayed spouse) is irrellavent. It's still cruel. <P>So you are not sorry you had an affair and it hurt your husband? Try thinking of it this way: You're walking down the street with your new lover. Out of the blue, he turns and pokes you in the eye. You screan and cry in pain "it hurt's, why did you do that?" And he answers "I can do that because I don't love you any more, too bad, but I'm not sorry."<P>Now do you get it?

packrat,<P>Why exactly are you here if you are happy with your decision? Who directed you to this site - your spouse, your affair partner, his wife?<P>This post probably shouldn't be dignified with a response, but I will anyway:<P>There is nothing new in the post - just the same old selfishness, unwillingness to take responsibility - the "meant to be" cr**, the seeing things in black and white - it is all so "simple", etc.<P>And why didn't your separate the moment you realized you didn't love your H? <P>Why can't we realize what you have realized? Yes, why can't everyone think exactly the same way you do. It would make things so much easier for you, wouldn't it?<P>I don't know what dictionary you are using - real love has nothing to do with whether it is reciprocated.

scandinavian<BR>My H was the betrayer but I can try to answer your question based on what we have learned through recovery.<P>1. My H was often cruel in an attempt to gaod me into retaliating. It is pretty hard to look in the mirror if you are betraying someone who is kind to you.<P>2. He didn't want to make any decisions on his own and he thought He didn't deserve me. Yes it was guilt. He wanted to see if I really could love what he felt he had become. These weren't conscious actions but we both understand them better now.<P>Packrat<BR>If you have questions I suggest that you start a thread of your own out of common courtesy. Scandinavian has asked an honest question and I would hate to see this thread turned into something else.

I am the betrayer in an EA, and I don't remember acting cruel. At least I don't think I did. I do remember being highly sensitive to anything my H did that I thought was unacceptable. For me, having the EA made things bearable for me at home. Stuff that bothered me before about my H didn't seem to matter because I didn't care. When my H found out about the EA and started dictating orders like a drill sargent; I got hostile. When my H called the OM's wife and told her, I said horrible things. Looking back, I blamed my H for all my unhappiness. When I thought I found happiness with the OM and then when my H took upon himself to end it, I was even more resentful. I blamed him for the end of the relationship and the painful withdrawl as well. Is that logical? No, but at the time I resented him in every way. He was the enemy. I can't speak for every betrayer's spouse, but my H was plenty cruel too. In my case, I wanted to leave him before there was an OM. I only created more confusion by getting involved with someone. <BR>

My H says he was cruel to try to get me to leave.He didn't want to be seen by friends and family as the "bad guy" who left his wife and kids. He figured that if he treated me badly enough I would tell him to "get out". I didn't,he became even more cruel.Picked fights so that he could keep seeing me as the problem.<P>Amazing now,how he feels so much different.Yes,he's guilty and ashamed and feels foolish for what he did.He asks me now how come I love him so much.He's very humbled now. <P>Packrat.....you are not feeling something special or something that was meant to be.You are no different from the others.Standard story of self-centeredness

I am the betrayed. My h lists 'things' I do as why he can't live with me anymore. The interesting thing is he never talked about the problems. Betrayers need to push to bring problems out in the open. H says for 4 of our 6 1/2 years, he's been thinking about moving out. Did he ask me to change things? <BR><BR>No./Did he ask me to pray with him about things?NO. Did he mention anything abouÝ moving before he asked OW to marry him? NO.<BR><BR>I have known for 9 weeks, have made many changes. When we to get together to talk, we both shed tears when we mention good points of our marriage. He wants to remain friends. Yet he says that every time I say wait a while longer, he can hate me easier. <BR><P><BR>I guess he is saying he will begin to be cruel if I don't agree to the divorce. We agreed to work things out when we married, so<BR><BR> that there would be no more divorces for <BR><BR>either of us. <BR><P><BR>Does he not realize how cruel he has been and is being? <P>------------------<BR>Committed

Dear Committed,<P>I'm so sorry to hear of your situation, it's a classic example of betrayer denial. <P>While your H never worked with you on the marriage, NOW, he expects you to help him work at the divorce so you can be friends!<P>Stunning irony, isn't it?<P>God bless,<BR>Kenneth

Scandinavian:<P>I betrayed my husband over a year ago (PA). The emotional affair started around five or six months prior to the one weekend physical affair. After the physical affair, I cut-off ALL contact with the other man via a letter. The OM has been trying to contact me via phone/e-mail, etc....but that's a different story.<P>You asked why betrayers can be so cruel. Well, I was cruel to my husband during my affair because for one thing, I was living in a fantasy land. I was blind and caught in a trap and I didn't know how to allow God to free me. I met the OM online, so until the weekend of our physical affair, I had never seen this guy face-to-face. I had the "luxury" of not having to deal with his annoying habits or personality quirks or sloppy mannerisms. Therefore, EVERYTHING that the OM said was perfect and everything that my husband said was annoying. I remember thinking, "Why am I staying here in this mess when I have the 'perfect' man waiting for me in another state?" During the time frame of my emotional affair, if my husband had brought me breakfast in bed, I would have thought that he made the gesture for SEX or just to awaken me earlier than I wanted to be awakened...that's what an idiot I was. There were also days that just being in the same room with my husband made me want to grit my teeth and throw something...I could barely stand to be around him...that's how an affair can warp a person's sense of kindness and reality. EVERYTHING, good or bad, was magnified 10,000 times.<P>Your spouse isn't cruel to you because of YOU. Guilt will cause a person to become completely irrational and sometimes hateful.<P>I was cruel because I wanted to lash out at someone else for my own stupidity. <P>Does any of this make sense? I hope so.<P>Jill

Ok, first off, I do want to apologize to Scandinavian if my post has made this thread go off in a different direction.<P>Secondly, I need to reply to the people who made assertions about my situation based on my admittedly unclear post.<P>Kenneth:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You revealed the fact that you and most other betrayers don't believe in, or are not capable of working on a relationship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I believe in relationships, and I am perfectly capable of maintaining one. In my situation, I believe there is nothing left to maintain. To quote from a standard divorce petition, I believe that the objects of matrimony have been destroyed. Being in love with one's spouse certainly is an important object of matrimony, and no marriage is solid if there is no love shared.<BR>I'm not "everyspouse", YMMV.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So you are not sorry you had an affair and it hurt your husband?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sorry that my actions hurt my husband, but I am not sorry for my actions. If I had known that I were the "kind of person" who has an affair, I would either never have married, or I would have left my husband prior. Falling in love with another person was not a planned event.<P>Nellie1:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why exactly are you here if you are happy with your decision? Who directed you to this site - your spouse, your affair partner, his wife?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My husband asked me to look at the site.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is nothing new in the post - just the same old selfishness, unwillingness to take responsibility - the "meant to be" cr**, the seeing things in black and white - it is all so "simple", etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I take responsibility for my affair. Fallen out of love or just plain selfish, I should have told my husband that I didn't want to be with him anymore. And trust me, just because things are simple, doesn't mean they are black and white. Divorcing isn't easy, but some marriages just end up that way.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And why didn't your separate the moment you realized you didn't love your H?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not exactly an easy decision on my side either. It took several years before I finally figured out for certain that what I was dealing with was the loss of love and not just general frustration.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why can't we realize what you have realized? Yes, why can't everyone think exactly the same way you do. It would make things so much easier for you, wouldn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not exactly a difficult concept to grasp. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't know what dictionary you are using - real love has nothing to do with whether it is reciprocated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Most dictionaries can't offer an adequate definition of love. I'll limitedly agree with what you say here, but I'll also offer another word for you to look up. "Futility".<P>Mthrrhbard:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Packrat.....you are not feeling something special or something that was meant to be.You are no different from the others.Standard story of self-centeredness<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for that fascinating insight into my personality, considering we've never had a conversation. Don't make assumptions.<P>Personally, I am doing as much as I can do to be "un-cruel" to my husband. I don't want him to work at things, I don't want him to make changes, I don't want him to do any work. I want things to be as friendly as possible, but I don't want either of us to compromise our ideals. Cheating spouses are not necessarily evil incarnate. <BR>

I was the betrayer. I don't remember being cruel either. I tried to talk to my ex for a long time before I became vulnerable. I told my ex that I was afraid of him about a month before the PA, which lasted a whopping two weeks. I realized pretty quick that no matter how crappy my H was treating me, it was not an excuse to cheat.<P>My ex said he didn't want to be married to someone who was afraid of him. Quote-Unquote. Did he ask me why I was afraid of him? No. Just told me that it was all in my head and that there was something wrong with ME. I took that to mean that HE didn't love me anymore and that he didn't want to be married to me. I actually thought I was doing him a favor by cheating, so then he could divorce me without any regrets. I was fed up with his anger and criticism. After I confessed, he told me I should kill myself and a bunch of other awful things. So, it is not only the "betrayers" who are capable of being cruel. My ex was the cruel one. There are some people who cheat when they want out of a marriage. There are other people who don't cheat, but abuse their spouse to get them to leave.

Packrat-<P>Like many betrayers, your posts (to me anyway) scream "I'm not responsible! It just happened!"<P>I have been on both sides, as betrayer 15 years ago and as betrayed 6 months ago. I used the same language back then that I see you and my stbx using now. I wonder sometimes if they don't issue us a book and tell us what phrases to use out of it.<P>I told my stbx when this thing started that I had been through it before, except she was me and I was my 1st wife. The situation is so similar, it could only be my karma coming back to bite me on the a**. We even had the temp custody hearing on my 1st wife's birthday.<P>I'm not really much of a hearts and flowers type of guy. I feel that love is a very transient emotion. It is easy to feel loved when the S is showering you with flowers and gifts. But how is it when you can't pay your bills every month. The American ideal of romantic love is, IMHO, a foolish thing to build a life on.<P>You made a committment, remember? For richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, etc. This is not like one of those wash out hair colors, if you don't like it, wash it out.<P>You say that you are not sorry for your actions. Are you sorry that you broke his trust? Are you sorry that you could not follow through on a committment you entered into freely? Remind me not to loan you any money.<P>You say that you believe in relationships and are able to maintain one. Track record ain't so good, darling. Are you still seeing the object of your affection?<P>Marriage is much more about committment and building a life together than it is about that queasy feeling in the pit of your stomach. If I want that, I'll eat some bad chinese food.<P>You can protest all you want, but you will be seen on this board as a selfish, immature little girl.<P>Boy am I glad I got that off my chest.<P>Hey, have a good day and a nice life. Oh and good luck. You'll need it.<P>Gramps

I don't know why I even bother. You people are more annoyingly narrowminded than Fundamentalist Christians and right-wing Republicans.<P>Suffice it to say, there are two sides to every story. <P>I feel exceptionally sorry for those of you who have allowed yourselves to be deluded into thinking that your spouses will magically fall back in love with you just because you want them to.<P>Oh, and Gramps? I have a Masters, an exemplary work history, and a great job with a fabulous salary. I've never relied on love to pay my bills and I could give a **** less about getting flowers every week. Profundity, common interests, communication, compromise, conversation, equality...these are the things that matter to me in a relationship. You think someone should love you because you pay the light bill on time? Guess my ideas of love are a little more profound than yours.<P>I came here at the behest of my husband, but there's nothing more I can say that will make any of you see past your own noses. I'm glad he's found a place of support, I'm sure you folks will make him feel right at home. My best wishes to all of you. I hope your marriages work out for the best.<P>------------------<BR>