I agree totally that I am not living this and I have really no clue how I would act if I was. But maybe its those of us who are not living it who can bring some voice of rational thought when you, the victims of this mess are dealing with such pain and asault. I think the system is unfair. I do. I think that it is terrible to deprive either the OC or the marriage children at each others expense. I think that yes some men are maybe mentally ill when they have sex, but I've got to say that I don't think thats most of them! Same with women. Yes there are sometimes going to be a case like this but not often. Catnip I know you did not say you believed in abortion. I didn't think you did say that. I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking you. I know all of you are dealing with such a awful situation. But the bottom line is that your H chose to have sex with this OW and now there is a child. And yes the courts are unfair. But you must look really at what your real options are and make your choice. And when you have made your choice then try to find peace with it and forget worrying about if its fair. It's not and it never will be. Sometimes life is just not fair.<P>Del<P>ps: Does anyone besides me see the wives in this situation with their children as victims of their own H's?

Del:<P>I did not think you were attacking me at all; merely stating your point of view which I have absolutely no problem with. I am not thin-skinned and can quite easily step outside my predicament for a moment to look at all opinions in a fairly pragmatic light. In fact, I enjoy healthy debate and take no offense. Say whatever you wish.<P>I, too, see that these wives and children are indeed victims of their husbands' actions, even though it pains me to feel or behave 'victimized'.<P>Bystander:<P>Well said. I am grateful for your input. I hope that through you and others who share your logic, that together we can work to change these ridiculous laws instead of being namby-pamby and roll over muelling, "oh, the laws are not fair, but that's life...what can we do about it...it's best if we just 'accept it'" I think not.<P>If you want to pursue anything along those lines, sign me up. I'll lobby. It's time something is done to remove the incentive from predatory people who are looking for a meal ticket. <P>I like the sliding scale idea that I think Popeye or Babst mentioned i.e. the various degrees of crime format could be applied to the vaious degrees of responsibility on a case by case basis instead of a one size fits all blanket law that serves no one but the architect of the nightmare.<P>Babst? Popeye? Jenny? Audrey? Troll? Sad In St. Louis? Sadgirl? Others?<P>Catnip =^^=

Babstr: I did not and I repeat did not...say that the married man is in the right. I said both parties were responsible man and woman. I said the person who got hurt was the OC, the spouse of the betrayer and/or betrayers and their children. I said I am sick to death of execuses for why it happened. I said if a married woman or married man has sex with another and a baby is the outcome BOTH are at fault. I am sorry for every woman and every man who has to deal with a betrayed spouse and the outcome of their affair. Some how all this other stuff got thrown in to the point where who knows what we are even talking about at this point. I know I touched a sore spot with you, but please, I am not saying you should suffer because of it. That was my point; the OW and her lover should. Do you really think that the OC should suffer because his or her parents were acting like idots at the time of conception. I'm sure you do not, and no, I don't have a solution. If I did, I wouldn't have to work for a living doing what I do.<P>If I offended you, I am sorry. I am sorry for your situation.

Lonelysoul:<P>The OW should, unless she is mature and financially secure, give the child up for adoption to a two parent home with all the means, maturity and love to enable this OC to have the advantages it deserves-because the OC is an innocent party.<P>The blatant selfishness of the OW to keep a child they cannot afford or provide for is the same selfishness that allowed them to crawl into bed with a married man in the first place. (plageurized via Jenny)<P>But since these self-serving people are dispicable enough to keep a child for financial gain, the impact on the OC will ultimately be horrendous. Starting life with only one parent, usually unstable or needy or self indulgent, these children are often tuned out and neglected and the 'moms' are often looking for a man to hook up with for a myriad of reasons. <BR>Some even just want to be Mrs. ANYBODY, as long as it is somebody. Even someone else's 'somebody'. It matters not. What kind of a message does that send the OC? When the OC grows up to be 14 or 15, she or he will think this behavior is acceptable. And the beat goes on. And history repeats itself. And society as a whole suffers- little by little.<P>Yeah, it is both their faults. SO THEY SHOULD BOTH DO THE RIGHT THING AND MAKE SURE IT IS GIVEN UP FOR ADOPTION. <BR>Unfortunately, the man has absolutely NOTHING to say about the OW's choice-she gets to arbitrarily, unilaterally make this decision - for him AND for his family. And the OC is sentenced to life with a 'mom' of questionable character and morals.<P>There oughta be laws-fair and just, according to case by case scenario.<P>Bystander: care to weigh in on this one?<P>Babstr: I don't think Lonelysoul meant what you thought she did and Lonelysoul, I think Babstr is probably angry and venting and you happened to be in the line of fire. <P>We should all make a pact that we can say what we want without any disrespect and not make apologies for it because it is just our feelings and point of view and no one is trying to offend or insult. If we worry about offending and insulting each other, we'll have to walk on eggshell with each other which will restrict open dialog.<BR> <BR>I'll start; if your opinion differs with mine or even if you think I'm all wet, feel free to say so. <BR>You won't offend me unless it is your intent to hurt me, and I doubt anyone here wants to do that. <BR>I welcome an open and lively debate-even if I don't like it or find it uncomforable and even if we get made at each other for a moment. Big deal, I can handle it. <BR>After what I've been through, I can handle the slings and arrows, especially if it is sent with good intentions. <BR>This might be helpful for you conflict avoiders out there to get your feet wet in some good meaty discussions that have made you uncomfortable in the past. You just might find it challenging and fun<BR>In fact, it might be fun, and helpful to everyone to get it out, examine possiblities and maybe find solutions.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Catnip,<BR>"give the child up for adoption to a two parent home"<P>What makes you think TWO parent homes are holy grails? Just in the posts here, LOTS of children are suffering plenty in supposedly *supieror* two parent homes. You are so SMUG and self-rightous!!!<BR>What a wonder of the universe it is that your H went to some other woman for for comfort!!!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 07, 2000).]

I'd like to go back to the original intent of this thread and say this:<P>When I slept with the OM, which happened one time, we had a condom. We didn't use it.<P>I was 40 years old, 19 years married. I have pounded it into my daughters (and my son, but he's not 'into' sex yet) to use protection. But I didn't. So it begs the question, I think, WHY didn't I use it. <P>Here's my answer: I wasn't in my right mind. <P>Call it an excuse...or a reason... I say it's both. I literally remember the hotel room, the moment I knew I would just 'throw caution to the wind' and do it without... I might as well have put a loaded gun to my head, and in retrospect, felt about the same way. I was one who had immediate remorse, who cried in the hotel room, who never did it again. And, of course, I took immediate responsibility for it (best I could) and was tested for everything over the course of a year - and I mean all the humiliating tests, got into therapy, did everything I could to make things right. Thankfully, I wasn't pregnant, didn't contract any STD's and was able to go on with my life. I think my H appreciated that I did all these things, but I'm honestly not sure. <P>In the end, he had his own affair, and still hasn't been tested for anything, and doens't believe he has anything because she's "so nice" or some such thing.<P>Bottom line, I think not every OW who gets pregnant is 'looking' for anything. In my case, it was stupidity and a deep hate of myself that made me take a chance and IT WAS WRONG. <P>Catnip, you are a gem, and I commend you and all other spouses who have this difficult journey. <P>As an aside, GIRLFRIEND... the last line of your post was uncalled for, hateful and mean. That's not what we're about around here.

Girlfriend...that last line in your reply to Catnip was uncalled for. It was mean and inconsiderate. You should be ashamed of yourself!

I really do hurt for all of you in this situation...having a child result would be so difficult.<P>I'm curious...for those of you who are convinced that the OW is doing this for financial gain, have you worked the numbers? Often, they would argue strongly for nOT keeping the child...yet, mothers seem oddly bonded to their children...<P> I have a friend in your position (thank goodness I have not been there myself). Her OW did discuss the possibility of aborting the child with her H (before she knew of the whole situation). He expressed that he did not want his child aborted. (BTW, my friend says she can better respect him for that than if he'd chosen to have his child terminated). <BR>He makes 50k...around $40 takehome. XOW will get about 20% of that...around $8K. Let's see, daycare for an infant is what..$150 a week minimum around here..so that's $600/month or $7200/year, right? That doesn't leave lots of money for XOW to be shopping, eating bonbons . If this woman got pg on purpose to use this as income, she is way dumber than even any of us believed; there are alot of easier jobs that pay lots better than illegitmate motherhhod.<P>Now, maybe the percentages differ a lot where you are. Maybe your H's OW got pg on purpose. Maybe your H brings in really big bucks, and his hide is "worth" nailing. Lots of variables, and I'm sure there are a few exceptions. But, by and large, I do not think it's the money, folks. <P><BR>

Catnip,<BR><BR>The reason I brought up the women raping men and the men getting hit with child support is the following. I wanted to document a case where it is just totally immoral, IMO, to saddle a man with child support. Once we've agreed to draw that line, the question becomes where. I also think that paternity suits against the mentally insane are out of bounds (e.g., do you think its weird that someone cannot be tried for murder because of insanity, but can be slapped with a child support judgment?). And then comes the grey area - what about men who were lied to regarding their partner's use of birth control? I mean, I wouldn't have any problem with hitting a man with child support if she really was using birth control and it failed. But if she lied about it, from an ethical standpoint its dicier. Yeah, we know what the courts say - but are these the right decisions being made? I don't know.<BR><BR>The reason that this is an ethical conundrum is that once a conception takes place, the OW is empowered to make virtually all the decisions, including in some cases the decision to file an income shares lawsuit and bankrupt the marital family. For those who claim that the marital family is also a victim of a wayward husband, you cannot redress the offense by unfairly apportioning the betrayer's income stream - so I firmly believe that the income shares system needs to be flushed down the toilet. As an aside, there is a group called Choice for Men. I know little about this group except that they advocate that in cases where men were deceived about birth control, the man should have the right to waive all paternity claims in exchange for never paying child support. Its an interesting ethical question, although how some is supposed to prove that they were deceived hasn't been made clear to me.<BR><BR>New_beginning, your "throw caution to the wind" post was insightful, and reminds me that not all of these affair pregnancies are perpetrated by ruthless OWs out for a meal ticket.<BR><BR>I promised Lonelysoul I would go back to lurking, so with that...Cheers, Bystander

Let's see...<BR>Catnip's post's have enough cruelty, predudice, and condemnation to "choke a horse", YET I should be "ashamed"?<BR>Speaking as a single Mother, who has dealt with just such misconceptions from the judgmental, narrow minded, section of society, NO I am not ashamed! If my partner was hatefull and cruel and, of course, ALWAYS RIGHT...I would RUN for the nearest EXIT!<BR>Catnip has appointed herself judge & jury, and sums up her *verdic* of this oc's entire life. (not to mention the child's entire lineage as well!!) How presumptuous and incredibly cold! <BR>Catnip... I know you are in incredable pain but please remember: your H is EXACTLY the same as the "Dispicable" women you decribe below!<P>"the OC is sentenced to life with a 'mom' of questionable character and morals."<P>"But since these self-serving people are dispicable enough to keep a child for financial gain, the impact on the OC<BR>will ultimately be horrendous. <BR>Starting life with only one parent, usually unstable or needy or self indulgent, these children are often tuned out and neglected and the 'moms' are often looking for a man to hook up with for a myrid of reasons. Some even just want to be Mrs. ANYBODY, as long as it is somebody. Even someone else's 'somebody'". It matters not. What kind of a message does that send the OC? When the OC grows up to be 14 or 15, she or he will think this behavior is acceptable. And the beat goes on. And history repeats itself. And society as a whole suffers- little by little.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 07, 2000).]

Kam6318 - I've done some research in the last few days. My state's formula gives 30% of the family income to the OW. That means she's getting 30% of *my* income, too! Since I'm the primary earner in the family, this *really* makes me PO. I'm hoping H will have the sense to make an arrangement with OW for support. But I haven't suggested it yet.<P>Sue

I am going to try and be calm this time around. It is a very difficult situation. I truly do no feel that no new laws will come about or there will be a change. I have never said that the OC does not need support. Even though I am living this. And even though the OW in MY PERSONAL siutation has none this more than once. I just want the financial aspect to be fair. I want to go to court with financial affidavits from both sides and see where both sides stand. If the OW is needing a certain amount to get by then I am willing to work with that. I do not want either child to go without food. Granted this woman did not file for any support until this child was two, if this child would have turned two before this filing, she would have a had a harder time getting the support, does that raise questions, yes. Do I not have a ton of questions, considering this woman screwed my husband, yes. But I just don't like the fact that court cuts everything so cut and dry. I can try to make up a couple hundred dollars, but there is no way I can make up $600, then I will have to come up with over $400 for childcare. How can my H and I do that? All I am saying is a fair chance. I want to be able to feed my child, be with her, and try to heal from this situation. I can't even concentrate on myself and the future, or the fact that I my H betrayed me. Because I now have to worry about feeding my daughter. Because she is a innoccent person also, why should she have to lose me, and see the added stress of getting money for food??? I didn't cause this. If I made decisions like the OW did, and it caused a child to come out of it, then she knew she was going to be struggling. I have friends that are single mothers, I know it is hard. But I have made no choices in this, which have caused me to be in this situation. If I had known about this there is no way I would have a child, or quit my job to be home with my child. The bottom line is the OW knew they could pregnant if they were not taking percautions. I know that at times things happen. But I have hard time understanding, I was on the pill until I decided to get pregnant. Protection isn't that hard. The pill is the only bc that is closest to not having sex. I guess my thinking, if a woman is carrying on with a MM, or a woman, is single and has a sex life, she always takes precautions, otherwise she is going to get pregnant.<P>I went off on a tangent. I just want all of those people who say the OC is innoccent and has rights. To also look across the board at the children who are hurting, and give them a fair deal. Because it is true that OC won't have father, as they get older they will realize it. But right now it is my child who is in pain. I get angered because I feel no one seems to care whether my child hurts, or whether my child eats. So my anger that was aimed at LONELYSOUL, was my basic mother's protection. My h was wrong, my goal, to not let my child suffer. I won't stand by and let some other woman take everything. It needs to be a FAIR system. But I truly believe it never will, because society screams about the rights of the OC, and tells the wife and children of the marriage life is tuff, which I think I heard said on this board. Last time I checked no child is more imporatant than another child. And just like that OW will fight for her child, I am going to fight for mine.

Girlfriend-Whoa! The gloves are off...let's duke it out! LOL. Just kidding. You are entitled to your opinion...especially since it is apparent that I struck a nerve with you. That's OK. you are probably a single Mom or perchance, do I dare? An OW with an OC????<P>Regardless of your combative stance, I am here to tell you that yeah, sometimes, i do feel a little self-righteous when I am in pain and feeling so indignant and so sad over what has happened. But when i wrote the post, these were simply my true beliefs.<P>children undeniably have a far better chance at acheiving a better adult life if they begin their baby lives with two loving adults to guide them on their journey. Oh, I know we hear of the horrendous things in the news...and that's why it's news, because it is not the norm.<P>Chill for a while and write back when we can debate this without getting weird, OK? Looking forward to hearing from you.<P>Prayers<P>Catnip =^^=<P>Thanks to all for your support, especially the support from those of you who have different opinions than mine. You are truly open minded and garner my respect.<P>A lot of dialogue here today while I've been gone cleaning out a storage locker. Broke TWO nails, ruined my favorite shirt but mission accomplished.

Kam6318:<P>I should clarify that in my particular situation, the OW started out the gate demanding my H provide her with and apartment or a house, a car and money BEFORE she got knocked up. The pressure, of course, intensified the day after their last encounter when she took her standard EPT test (that she carried with her in her overnight bag each weekend) - and it was positive. My H panicked and sent her a grand, then two weeks later another grand because she said she needed vitamins. Pretty pricey.<P>When she realized he wouldn't be leaving me for her, she immediately got an attorney and started paternity proceedings at the end of her first month. She was horribly disappointed she couldn't legally get money from my H until the DNA testing could be done after the child's birth. <BR>During her nine months we received countless notices from the family courts. They were trying to get my H to admit paternity before he knew for sure it was his. He had only know her a month and only been with her three times, he didn't know how or with whom she spent the rest of her time. We were served by a sheriff while she was in her first trimester at our office. The papers from her attorney demanded $3000 per month or a settlement of $300,000. I was speechless.<BR>It was all too mercenary. We barely make what she was asking for herself alone.<P>Child support is to suppliment the mom's income; not provide a means for her to stay home without working at a job. This OW was looking for total support as if she were a wife of twenty years rather than a stranger from a three weekend fling.<P>She was very desperate and incredibly stupid to believe the ramblings of a drunk in that short a period of time without investigating whether or not what he was saying was true and accurate, IMHO.<P>Now she is a very disappointed OW because what she will received is probably about a tenth of what she was counting on. She will have to get a job, something she never wanted to do, and the OC will suffer because it will have to be in daycare.<P>I know that Mom's bond to their babies. I did, too. But, when I was young and had a son I could not care for properly myself, I gave him up for adoption. <BR>Thirty years later we have a relationship since he turned 19 and looked me up. He was raised in an outstanding family. His Mom and I are friends and I respectfully keep a distance and know my place. We keep in touch a couple times a year. I am grateful God provided him with such wonderful, loving people and an excellent upbringing.<P>I tell this private part of my life now because I hear people talking about what a sacrifice it is for the Mom to give up the child,- and it is. For her. And in some ways for the child. My son has a lot of feelings about what I did and how it effected him and wonders what it would have been like if he would have been raised with me, but, he is also grateful I gave him to his family. <BR>He is so happy and productive and beautiful. His parents did an outstanding job- far,far better than I could have done for him at the time. <BR>There are not adequate words to describe the feelings of loss, love, guilt, yearning. But, I knew in my heart I was doing the right thing for the child; I prayed that God would watch over him and He did. <BR>I am so blessed that God and my bio son's family allowed me to meet him and have a nice relationship with him when he became an adult. All those years for me of wondering and sadness were wiped away the moment I saw him walk down the concourse at the airport. There were a million people there that day and I stood watching throngs walking through the hallway towards me. And about a half a block down I spotted him in the crowd among all those other people. <BR>I had never seen a picture of him, but our eyes met at the exact same moment and we both knew each other. And I watched him walk toward me while everything else got muted around me. It was truly an amazing moment. I am so blessed.<P>I knew I couldn't keep him just because of how I would feel, or because of what I wanted or because of the special feelings I felt when I was in the hospital, because, in my particular case at that time, I was not fit or able to provide a stable life. Oh sure, of course I would have loved him, and did. But he would have lived in upheaval and stress because of the way my life was at the time. It just wasn't fair to him to start life that way.<P>So, I guess it was time to explain why I think and feel the way I do about this situation. This is something that is extremely difficult for me to talk about yet I feel it is important for people who are not capable or able to provide a decent home for their child that there are other loving options. It is also important to me that these same people realize what they want and how they feel is secondary to the well being of the child.<P>Off the soapbox.<P>Thanks Kam for your stats. They are completely realistic. I know that there are many, many more cases where this situation is probably an accident and not a premeditated, intentional entrapment. In my particular case, all the evidence points to the very real probability that it was deliberate. She practically admitted it to me when I made the unannounced visit to her house last summer.<BR>However, these women who do receive 20-30% of the income share of the father probably have a job and make a decent living on their own and it is used to suppliment her income to provide for the child. <BR>In about three other cases I know of (besides my own), the OW may have a child or two from a couple other guys and get welfare to boot. I know it isn't a fancy life filled with little luxuries, but it is a way for them to pay bills without having to do much, and it is a way of life they are accostomed to and just fine with. They may have low expectations, or standards or lack ambition for something better. I don't know. A possiblity.<P>Catnip =^^=<P><BR> <P>

Jeezzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>You know I was actually composing a normal reply, ya know...some information...a question or two... till I read the post to Kam. There's nothing anyone could ever say to you. <BR>k, have it your way( your gonna anyhow!HA!)<BR>Just remember there's three sides to every story: His/her's and the truth, somewhere in the middle.<BR>I can truly see why your H would say ANYTHING<BR>just to shut you up!!!!!!<BR>Oh yeah, amost forgot....<P>"you are probably a single Mom or perchance, do I dare? An OW with an OC????<P>I am a single Mom. No I don't have OC. <BR>My question for you is:<P>are you a saint? or perchance, do I dare?<BR>JUST A SNOBBY B****C!!<p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 07, 2000).]

<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Girlfriend (edited May 07, 2000).]

Girlfriend: <P>I am glad your child is not the result of an affair with a married man. <P>When I was divorced a lifetime ago, I was a single Mom for about three years until I remarried. Those were tough years and I remember the sacrifices and how hard it was to do it all and still have time to take care of my child.<P>It's not fun.<P>Hope you calm down. I'd hate to see you not be able to play well with the other kids here on the forum. We all treat each other with kindness and respect and try to be open to others' points of view.<P>Take care<P>Catnip =^^=

Girlfriend:<P>You're starting to scare me. Are you MY OW?<P>You must be. I can't imagine inspiring this kind of wrath from anyone else.<P>Catnip =^^=

In your husbands dreams maybe...<P>I'm told that affairs are often an expression of hostility toward one's spouce.<BR>So you've obviosly "inspired" one other person to vengfull wrath, I'm quite certain there are/will be others.<BR>

Catnip,<P>I was kinda thinking the same thing. You didn't say anything that was angry and hateful to Girlfriend but yet, what did you get in return? <P>If she's not your OW, why would she be so angry at you?<P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi