Hi Jill...<P>As usual, your post are always enlightening and insightful. I just read your post to "just-me" as your retold your own story. One of the things I have found interesting about your situation, is the way you now look at the "OM". You refer to him as "scum" and said that "God even showed you he was a big bag of scum".<P>I can certainly understand the remorse, regret, and pain in which you look back on the whole ordeal. But is it possible that you are confusing the "sinner with the sin". I don't think God looks on people as being "scum"...sort of like the saying "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner". Is it possible that perhaps you are somewhat bitter against this OM for his part in the sin? <P>The reason I ask this, as my friend(OW) and I continue to attempt to get our hearts untangled, is this...I just can't ever imagine seeing her in the same light that you cast over your OM.<P>I realize that folks in a more objective view will say I am living in a fantasy that has not shed light on all the faults that lie in us all. I understand this. But the person I was drawn too...had some very amazing and delightful qualities...to which I was drawn to in the first place. Does she have some "flaws" in her character to have ended up in this place with me? You bet. So do I. So do we all. Without trying to sugar-coat these flaws, I just thought it would be good to help distinguish the difference between hating our sin...and trying to understand the "sinner".<P>Oddly...when I read post like that...it ALMOST makes me want to "stay in that place" with her...for fear of ever having such hostile feelings towards her. <P>Does that make sense? Help me here...understand what you are saying....<BR>Thanks Jill.<BR>Don't stop posting here , whatever you do.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 23, 2000).]

NoMas, surely you realize by now that it is not for you to "help your friend" untangle your hearts. Just do it. You can best help her by detaching from her entirely. You are clearly suffering the ups and downs of withdrawal. Get help fast!<P>I note from your profile you began posting in January. If you had cut yourself off totally from her then, you would not "want to 'stay in that place' with her...for fear of ever having such hostile feelings towards her."<P>NoMas, you are treading on the edge. I hope that you will recognize this and get back fast!

Wesse...<P>In January, after confessing to our spouses, we cut off contact for about two weeks. We have made NUMEROUS attempts to break it off completely. Let me say this...hopefully without sounding "bitter", but a lot of people make it sound so d**n simple to just "click the mouse" and never talk again.<P>I will not argue the point that it needs to be done. I agree. Theory is wonderful. "Doing it" is another thing. Maybe someday...I will be able to help someone out of a similar place. I just hope I can remember how much of a painful struggle it was/is...and am not so quick to offer such "simple" advice.<P>I don't want to come across as hostile....I am just wrestling with the issue of: "Is this a 'can't do it' thing, or a 'don't want to thing'" And if it is the latter, what has to happen to change the 'want to'? I can't find the silly button to turn off this flood of emotions. I'm sure it is around here somewhere.<P>***sigh***<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 23, 2000).]

Nomas...you will be helping her, and yourself by doing all you can to avoid contact. Confide in a male buddy or better yet your wife. <P>As for Jill's situation. I'm sure she will come along to tell you, but if I remember right he was pretty nasty to her behaviorally after the fantasy part wore off. He started hurting her, and withdrawing love units all on his own. It wasn't the adultery that made him the scum, but his behavior afterwards.

<BR>Frankly, NoMas, it IS simple. It just isn't easy.<P><BR>Slightly Sane<BR>

No THAT...was profound.<P>I will think on that.

NoMas:<P>Good question. <P>I guess that I need to try to be more careful about how I phrase things when I'm writing. I didn't mean to imply that GOD said that this person is scum. What I was trying to convey is that because God changed my heart and opened my eyes, I was able to the OM's "true colors". As you said, God loves the person and hates the sin...I would never purposely convey that God thinks that anyone is scum. Obviously, that's how I came across, and for that, I apologize!<P>No, I'm not bitter towards the OM for his part in this whole horrible scene. He's human and he's made some really crummy choices. I'm human and I made some choices that were beyond crummy. It's not like the OM trapped me...I trapped myself.<P>If there's anything that I AM bitter about is the fact that the OM has tried on several occasions to contact me when I have CLEARLY stated that I want nothing to do with him. I want to save my marriage.<P>Obviously, the other man had some qualities that I was drawn to, or I would've never had an affair. For example, he was very verbal about how attractive he thought that I was. I liked to hear that...it was always a miracle if my husband even gave me a "you look nice today". There were a few other things that I liked about him, too. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. <P>I am also trying to say that my marriage was SO bad that ANYTHING or ANYONE would have been appealing during the time of my affair. I was so incredibly lonely that I listened to and believed ANY compliment or comforting word. All of the other man's "so-so" qualities were exaggerated in my view at the time of my affair. Before long, his "so-so" qualities became AMAZING and UNIQUE and EXCITING. And, at the same time, all of my husband's regular character quirks became VERY exaggerated in my view...he couldn't do or say anything correctly. I'm not sure if any of that makes sense or not...I'm trying, here, NoMas! LOL As you said, we ALL have character flaws...I'm the "queen" of personality quirks and character flaws.<P>Anyway, feel free to ask more questions...I'll do my best to clarify things for you...I just want to help.<P>Once again, I want to apologize if I implied that God thinks that people are scum...I never meant to say that, and I don't think that God thinks that...<P>**sigh**<P>Jill

I do not think it is true that the OP is always scum. From what I have been reading here, some people do come to believe the OP they were involved with is scum and that usually seems to be related to how they were treated when ending the affair. But I do not think that is always the case. It is possible to fall in love with someone who is not your spouse and that person you fall in love with may have great qualities. (I agree it is best to never get close enough to an OP to even allow that to happen, but sometimes it does) Given different circumstances you might even have chosen to spend the rest of your life with that person and that would be a very good thing. But it is no longer a good thing when you (and the other) are not free to do so. Your current circumstances do not allow ALL the choices anymore. <P>This is getting confusing! But what I am trying to say is that, I don't think ALL OPs are scum and I don't think it is necessary to look upon them that way. What is necessary, though, is to realize that prior commitments (to your spouse) no longer allow you to pursue other relationships. I do not think my "friend" (OM) is scum and I don't think it is necessary for me to look at him that way. Still, we aren't free to pursue a relationship with each other. Prior choices exclude other ones. And life is like that in many areas. Going down one road excludes being able to pursue another.<P>NoMas, I understand your struggle, believe me. I know it is not easy to "just do it". I am just thankful I have gotten to the point where I am willing to "do it". I remember a time when I didn't even "want to" do what I know I had to. I know how powerful those forces are, really I do!!! Things didn't change to the point where I suddenly turned around and wanted to "make it all right". I just know my heart began to soften just a little bit and I have moved towards that "little window" of softening, for fear it will close up again if I ignore it. How did I get to this point of being "willing to do the right thing?" Not exactly sure. I know I never completely shut God out (though I did my husband). I walked through the little doors He put before me. In time He got me to the place where I could "open my hand". It does hurt, there is a lot of pain, but it is slowly turning into that "sweet kind of pain" that comes from going God's way. I have a long way to go, especially in softening towards my husband. But for now I am returning back to God and that is very good. I don't want to force my fragile feelings to be what they aren't. Just go day by day moving in the right direction, all by the grace of God.<P>I hope I haven't offended any who have been betrayed and deeply hurting. That is not my intention. Just to share some of my own pain and hope to encourage others.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

I want to add my point of view, and I expect to get SLAMMED like I have been lately... Personally, I just don't care anymore...<P>I know that what I did was wrong.... But I can also say that I will never think of the OM as a bad person... He was in the same type situation that I was... and that I truly understand...<P>I know that he has regrets just as I do... But I also know that I will always have a great deal of respect for him... as a person... and for the struggles he went through... just as the struggles I went through...<P>I also know... that I would never feel love for a person if they were "Scum"... he made a mistake just as I did.... but I will always care for him and think about his well being... just as he would for me....and as for right now... I think I will feel like that for the rest of my life..<P>I have a great deal of respect and love for him to this day... and I don't know that there is anything that will ever change that... <P>He helped me through a very tough time in my life and also helped me to find my way home to my H... just as I did to help him find his way back to his family and x-wife... and We both had to make a choice to do it...<P>As far as I am concerned.... I believe that there was a lesson to be learned here.. and a purpose for it happening...<P>I don't care what anyone else thinks about it... it doesn't matter... they didn't live it.... they didn't feel it... they don't KNOW it... but I do...<P>NoMas.... there is most likely no one here who is going to understand what you are truly going through... it is hopeless.. But I am pretty sure that I know what you are going through... <P>Sometime, maybe we can talk through e-mail ... I think that you might find some things that I have done to help me through it... to your benefit... I would even be willing to talk with her... because I am almost positive that I know what she is going through....<P>Write me at.. <BR>*************** if you would please... besides... I have some questions I would like to ask to the two of you privately...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 24, 2000).]

Lacee, I've haven't been following your story recently, and if you take this as a slam, I apologize. There ARE those of us here who "know". I am both betrayed and betrayer and believe me, there are things experiencing both sides that teach you the hard way. Being betrayed hurts so very much more because you never have any control over the situation--unless you end your marriage. Betraying is so very difficult because of the double-mindedness, wanting the longterm marriage and wanting the new person that gives you so much without the pain and boredom.<P>I'm in withdrawal myself. In Jan, when Guard left me for the 7th time, I let a friendship become much more, he offered emotional support, friendship, simple kindness. I ended contact the end of March...and he is the one who has kept that. I've made it past the need him every day, but every 7-10 days I feel like I have to speak to him. Today I'm at day 7 since last contact. At the point where my H & I are, if either one of us contact our OP, our marriage--which for the first time in many long months we BOTH want--probably will not survive.<P>Do you realize that No Mas got into his difficulty by emailing with a woman from the board? He needs other men to support him, not another female. If you want to talk, why NOT talk on the board where you remain accountable for what you say?<P>Sorry, NoMas, I don't want to cut off any support for you, but I know danger signals when I read them.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

I do understand both sides.. I was betrayed in my first marriage... a few times... <P>I was able to forgive and move towards making our marriage work... Yes, it hurt badly... and after 4 years our marriage did end....But, I have to say that in my situation being a betrayer hurts more... <P>I say that because I made the choice to betray and knew it was wrong... and in the other case, I had no choice when I was betrayed... I do understand much better now what my x-h was trying to get me to understand... like how he felt... and his despair... his regrets for what he had done to me...<P>Of course this makes it worse for me now because I made the decision and I went out and fell in love with another man... like I said... it was my choice... <P>Others may feel differently about THEIR situations.. but that is just what it is... THEIR situations and everyone is different...<P>Of course I know that NoMas met the OW here at MB. As far as NoMas e-mailing me, I have also invited his "Friend" to e-mail me. There are just SOME things that the betrayer doesn't understand. And sometimes, it is just because they refuse to accept it. <P>I wanted to tell them how I started on the road to recovery from OM... PRIVATELY... which is of course my choice. Whether or not they choose to e-mail me about the subject, is THEIR choice... <P>I am interested in seeing them both get through this... I am NOT interested in starting another relationship with anyone else and I am certain that NoMas isn't either...<P>There is no danger here... but I thank you for your concern for NoMas... <p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 24, 2000).]

I think there is a danger for No Mas. There's one for you too. I think this is like the second or third post I've read of yours lacee where you have started with an I'm probably going to get slammed intro. I don't know if that's because you are unsure of yourself, defensive, or have a really low self-esteem for what you feel. That concerns me a bit, because it means you are extremely vulnerable. I understand what you are saying though, but I think it would be best if you emailed only with his friend. (if she were to take you up on the offer.) She lurks now and then so if she's interested, I'm sure she'd make contact with you.<P>I'm no autocrat though so what the three of you decide really is none of my business.

I didn't mean to be an autocrat (where do you sign up for that, anyway? )<P>My H posted on MB as a betrayer, and although, no one did or said anything "wrong", I felt uncomfortable when some female posters said to him "I wish you were MY husband, if you want to email me..."<P>So, Lacee, I guess my response to you indicates my own fears. But Harley is very clear that either betrayed or betrayers should seek support from those of their own sex. And since that is how I just betrayed...I KNOW he's right. So, I hope, does NoMas.<P>It is very difficult when your emotional needs have been met successfully with another person to turn that trust back to your spouse, when they may not have been meeting your needs, either because they were betraying, or because you were.<P>The road to recovery is best started with "no contact". If you have an easier way, Lacee, I pray to God you share it with all of us...and that is sincere, not a slam.

Well, I appreciate all the concern being expressed here for my well-being.<P>For the life of me, given the feelings I have for my "friend", and trying to "re-build" my marriage, I'm not sure I have any capacity left in my heart to establish another relationship with anyone.<BR>But I do agree, it is good advice.

Beth, <BR>Unsure of myself? <BR>At times, yes... isn't everyone?<BR>Defensive? <BR>Hey,I am a betrayer...<BR>Do I have really low self-esteem for what I feel? <BR>No, but sometimes it's like talking to a group of people who don't understand the language I'm speaking... <BR>Vulnerable? <BR>Na... only in the sense that I come here to learn to help better myself and say what I feel...therefore, leaving myself open to attack by the betrayed...<P>I expect to be slammed, because I am in a room full of people, who have been betrayed and cannot accept the fact that sometimes there really are feelings of love between the betrayer and the OP and they cannot see beyond their own pain enough to understand that the betrayer feels pain about what they have done too... <P>Lor, I understand the way you felt about women saying that they wished your H was their H and send them mail!! That's obviously wrong!<P>But I am not telling NoMas that I wish my H were like him... I want my marriage to work that's why I'm here!!! And I would really like to see NoMas and his friend make their marriages work also... <BR> <BR>Please put your minds at ease... And quit making a big deal out of nothing... I do not claim to have a simpler way... There is NO simple way... It is just something that has been working for me... However, it might not work for them... <P>And besides, if I were willing to jeprodize my marriage further... I would return to the OM... Because of how I feel about him... So, please stop trying to turn this into something it is not...<P>To be perfectly honest... I would expecially like to talk with her... <P>NoMas? I apologize for getting everyone in an uproar... Just go on doing what you are to get your life in order... I wish you two the best of luck....<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited May 24, 2000).]

Hey, I'm not in an uproar....On the other side of the abyss and so able to detach myself a bit more. Lor's been on both sides, I've been betrayed. I don't judge anybody else. I don't always understand because I haven't been there, but I try to. I imagine similar situations I have been in and then try to imagine them magnified. When I read your first line, the first thought that came into my mind was one of wanting to reassure. Nothing you said at the beginning caused me to want to jump up and choke slam you. It made complete sense to me, and I recognized you as a person in pain. <P>Do you think it's possible that a person who has been betrayed can empathize with a betrayer? NoMas, has two strikes against him in that he's a male and a betrayer, and yet I still empathize with his situation. (You seem like a great guy NoMas so don't think I'm bashing you ) I wonder if some of your fear of bashing doesn't come from inside? Anyway, I value your opinion and just as you learn from this board, I too learn from all the perspectives presented here. Including betrayed and OP's. <P>I was just concerned about the email suggestion. Not that your motives were anything other than altruistic, but warning signs were going off in my head. I've taken a deeper interest in NoMas and his friends situation than I probably should have and really want to see both of them happy with their spouses. They seem like really great people.<P>Hey NoMas (I've got hours left. whoo hooo!!)

Wow...Beth...<P>"two strikes" against me. The pressure is on.<BR>By the way, are you the only one on here who knows how to make the neat smiley faces?<P>And what did you mean by having "hours left?"<P><BR>Much of what is written on these boards can be very valuable to both sides. I think it is one of the beneficial aspects of coming here...reading the hearts of what others are going through. It is a "glimpse of truth" that enables us to be set free...if that is what we really want. Often times, "Pain", can be an excellent motivator to move on. <P>No aruging that if this is true, there should be an ample supply of motivation here!<BR>

NoMas,<BR>On the subject of the OP becoming "scum", since I've miserably now had 2 OM, I can address that. The one 10 years ago, I consider a scoundrel, because that is what he is. I was lonely, vulnerable and he went after me. Yes I could have said no, but I didn't. At the end of our relationship, he said he wanted me, but not my 2 kids...I think he would qualify for "scum" just for that.<P>The man I am no longer seeing...at this point I can't see him becoming "scum" to me. My H considers him scum, as I consider his OW to be a slut. But there were things about the OM that I didn't have to think about--his kids, ex-wife, his traveling, businesses, his dealing with my kids (though he said he looked forward to it, and I never told him the story of the other OM), my H. And this man lives 6 blocks away and we could be in each other's lives in a heartbeat. Reality is seeping into the fantasy...but I know he didn't take advantage of me or my separated/betrayed situation as much as he could have. <P>By the way, I always hate my H saying anything good about his OW...and he feels the same about this OM. Try not to defend the OW to your W, as difficult as that can be.<P>Best,<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

I, too, cannot consider the OP scum. In my case, he did the honorable thing in the end. he encoureaged the EA to a point with all the flirtations, but when it came right down to it and he realized that I had feelings for him and that my marriage was seriously in trouble, instead of taking advantage of the situation (which he easily could have) he bowed out. It hurts like hell to have him gone from my life. But I know I can't make a decision about my marriage with him in the picture complicating things. He knew that. He will never be scum in my eyes.

Hey Beth..<BR>Ok... so "Uproar" may have been a bit inappropriate... I think you were all showing concern... so I apologize... I hope I just didn't want to make NoMas feel uncomfortable...<P>I Absolutely do believe that the betrayed can empathize with a betrayer. (Of course, there are exceptions to the rules) But, if one doesn't try, they cannot move forward in their own recovery...<P>I don't think that I really have a fear of bashing.. I mean, I realize that I did something wrong and I certainly deserve it in some respect... And Lord knows I don't like it.. But I learn from it...<P>I don't feel that I am wrong when I write what I do... It is right for me... and it is what I feel... And maybe... it might make sense to someone and help them to maybe gain a new perspective on something...<P>What upsets me is when there is a generalization made of the betrayer... For instance... "All betrayers are alike"... "All betrayers are living in a fantasy world"... "All betrayers are selfish"... "That's a typical betrayer reaction"... <P>People need to understand... that everyone is different... all circumstances are different... and that what is good for one person may not be good for another... that's all...<P>I have always respected your responses... you seem to be very level headed and objective... And you help many people here... including myself... so for that I thank you...<P>You are obviously concerned for NoMas and his progress... I think a lot of people here are... and I respect him for being here and trying to move forward and mostly for his honesty...<P>Hey NoMas! I can make those faces too! <P>