TheStudent,<BR>It is not doing unto others as you would have them do unto you that is the real issue. It is doing as God has asked you to do that is the issue. It is our selfishness (pride) that keeps us from doing the right thing (which is not depedent on ANY human being but on GOd's definition.) As long as we continue to think we are in control, we will continue to suffer as we are.<P>It is not to be figured out. We need only listen to God by reading the Bible to know what love means. We are putting to much effort into figuring it out rather than listen to Him.<P>I married my W because God asked me to marry her. I did not marry her to make me happy because marrying another imperfect being is not the way to achieve happiness. I was happy before I met my W. I learned this because my XGF breaking up with me taught me that happiness is in knowing the Lord as it says in Proverbs.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Hi Tired LuLu,<P>IMO (which by the way took me many, many weeks of therapy to arrive at a decent opinion) this is the perception I have of why an affair happens...<P>Your marriage is somewhat like a "baby". It has needs, wants. It needs very high maintenace. It needs food to grow, love to nurture it and make it feel secure, encouragement to help it build confidence. Without some or all of these things it will be unhealthy or possibly die. I know this is a rather odd analagy, but closest to how I feel about my own failure in my marriage. I didn't provide the nurturing my "baby" needed. Thus the eventual "death" of my marriage. Does this make sense to you?<P>Anyway, just wanted to share my view on the why's of an affair having dealt through this betrayal myself.

TL....I am in agreement with you.<P>The deterioration of a marriage lies with both spouses, BUT, the choice to have an affair lies with the betrayer.<P>The betrayed spouse had ZERO SAY-SO in this decision. An affair is done with deceit, secretiveness and inconsideration for another's feelings. Obviously, the POJA wasn't applied here. <P>That's where the betrayer IS being selfish....

I have noticed with our children that sometimes, the worse they are feeling about themselves, the more selfishly they act.

I hope the comparison with the dhildren is close to accurate. It would help explain the treatment my W gives me as well as her friends and family. She may think she is getting away with something, but too many others know, know more than she realizes.<BR>RRunRR

Nellie, <P>That is what I think caused my husbands EA. He was feeling really low on himself - his self esteem was down - he did what made him feel better for the moment. <P>He said it wasn't me and things were going the best they have ever gone in our marriage - something I thought also and was very happy about - we were trying to start a family after waiting 16 years..then - I found out he had a 'secret friend'. <P>The problem I have with it - even though intellectually I understand it - is - I didn't marry a child - so I thought. I wanted a man and a husband - a life partner, not a 40 year old child. <P>

Student,<BR> You said something about affair,or no affair,divorce was still the final outcome.<BR> I guess there are several ways of looking at this.I believe my W had an exit affair,so divorce was already on her mind.<BR> But I wish she could of just sat down,and told me she was unhappy in our relationship,and that she wanted free.Maybe we could have parted as friends.<BR>But to lie to me,sneak around behind my back,and sleep with another man will put a scar on me I'll never forget.After our divorce,I'm not sure if I could ever trust anyone again,or get married again.<BR>Also,now I feel like this horrible monster who drove his W to do this unthinkable act.Doesn't matter that she told me I was a good H,but she was just in love with someone else.Divorce may be the outcome in either case,but it would of made a big difference if she had gone about it another way.<BR> But....on the other hand,she wanted a divorce at any rate.But by going the affair route,I think she felt so guilty,that she is leaving me almost everything.Between us we made 100K a year,so we're not talking slim pickings.I think she also believes OM will take care of her.For her sake,I hope she's right.She didn't want the house,everything in it,the cars(we had four,she took hers),my pension,my 401K,etc.My lawyer couldn't believe it.He said I'm getting off scot-free.<BR> So,I lost my W,my second-family,my way of life,my self-esteem,and my good attitude about marriage.But I came out ahead financially(unlike a lot of divorcing people).I'll have my retirement,make a mint when I sell this house,and have a comfortable life.My STBX will have her new life,her trophy-boyfriend,and will be away from me.<BR> I still don't think there are any real winners here,though.Divorce still $ucks.<BR> --Murph

Murph,<BR>My first H slept with many, many women and I obviously forgot. <P>I've never worried about infidelity since. One thing I learned from my first husband is that it doesn't matter how great a spouse you are, the other person always has other options and a free will. Even though my first H did those things, he never cut me down or degraded me. You could say he was more passive-aggressive. He knew he had a problem, but didn't feel like fixing it.<P>Also, after all the lies he told, I can pick out a lie so freakin' quick that I never worry about somebody pulling one over on me ever again. Your wife confessed, so you at least know you weren't going crazy. I am thankful to my first H for being honest in that respect. He taught me how to spot a liar/cheater, and I've done well so far.<P>My second H, on the other hand, degraded and criticized me for any little thing. He cheated on me after I confessed, and it didn't phase me a bit. Still doesn't. What did bother me was the effort he put into breaking me down. My second H did much more harm to me than my first H ever did. <P>Part as friends? If you don't have kids, I seriously doubt you will be friends. You will both get over whatever existing attachment you have to each other, and will go your own way. The financial loss due to a divorce affects people much longer than the emotional loss, IMO. <P>I still think you made out in the best possible way, if divorce was in your future and you don't have kids. I say that because a relationship still needs to exist for the sake of the kids after a divorce. Infidelity or running off to an affair partner teaches kids a bad lesson. <P>Maybe she feels guilty, maybe not. I could have fought my H for the inheritance money, because it was in both our names, but I didn't care. I make a good living and I didn't feel like going through that battle. Maybe she just feels like you are a good guy and she doesn't feel like fighting over it. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 25, 2000).]

Just had a thought I wanted to add to this thread.<P>Several people have said affairs are due to selfishness on the part of both betrayer and betrayed. The more I think about it, the more I realize this just isn't true. There is certainly an element of selfishness in the betrayer's actions; but the betrayed might honestly be doing the best they can, meeting the needs they THINK their spouse has and not realizing they aren't meeting their spouse's most important needs. Missing the signs of trouble, or not recognizing them for what they are, is not selfishness at all IMO.

I didn't think of myself as being selfish toward his needs. I thought I was being a good wife, I just knew I wasn't attractive enough for him.<P>There were times in our marriage though when I said and did things I shouldn't have done out of anger and in the heat of an argument. I said things to him that hurt him deeply and made him feel I didn't love him. He told me that he had felt unloved by me for years because I said I didn't love him and wanted out during an argument many years ago.<P>I said those things because it released anger in me at the time and because I wanted to hurt him. That was not for his benefit, it was for mine.<P>I do not feel I was a selfish wife, and of course never deserved what he did to me. (Yes I still think it was done to me) but I did not cherish the marriage relationship and his feelings as I should have. I don't think any couple ever does this perfectly, but not all couples suffer infidelity. That is where I think the extreme selfishness of the betrayer comes into play

Yes, I agree, the betrayer is completely selfish, immoral, an absolute jerk.<P>But what do I want? Do I want to sing that song all the way to divorce court?? Sounds like TS' spouse did just that.<P>One thing stood out to me in that long thread by EM - Tired Lady admits she didn't give her marriage a good try because she was so angry. So after a year, they both feel it is over.<P>What do the betrayeds on this board want? I speak in frustration. I felt anger, hurt, all that, but I wanted a great marriage with my man despite what happened. I wanted to put it behind us. I wanted to recognize why he was so "hungry" that he selfishly fed on an affair. And he admits he did go looking for it.<P>I wanted to know if a great marriage with this man was still possible. You can read my update in recovery, if you like.<P>So yes, they are selfish, now what??<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Does any of this sound selfish to any of you?<P><BR>Constant criticism...<P>Blame for everything that goes wrong...<P>Being told you are not deserving because you don't work...<P>You're tired again? Why?<P>You were too busy to make that phone call for me?<P>What did you get done today?<P>I'm going golfing... be back in a couple hours...<P>I have to work late again tonight...<P>I have to work this weekend...<P>I bought it on the clearance rack... yes and this one... and this one...<P>I know women who can hold down a full time job, raise their kids and still look good...<P>I'll stay home and do everything you do the day you get a job that will pay you what I make....<P>She's just a friend at work.. (who happens to be cute and petite and has breast implants and a skinny butt) and just because she's interested in me doesn't mean I am interested in her....<P>We just went to lunch... it was only business...<P>She needed help getting a broken windshild out of the back of her truck...<P>She just wanted to ask me some advice about her boyfriend...<P>She just wanted me to see the new home she was building... nothing's going on...

I want to make three points.<P>1)Another thing no one's mentioned is intent. While most married people don't INTEND to hurt each other by not meeting needs, being selfish, having anger, etc., it happens. In fact most people don't even know they are doing this. There is plenty of "blame" to be placed in hindsight for the problems of the marriage.<P>However, most affairs are INTENTIONALLY decided upon....i.e. pre-planning the time, place....pre-planning the lie to tell the spouse...etc., EVEN if you start it in a very spontaneous way. For the future of the affair, planning has to take place.<P>And THAT's the difference between the betrayed and the betrayer. <P>No one is saying that problems in the marriage aren't caused by selfishness. They probably are. But are the partners INTENTIONALLY being selfish...to the point that they know it will have a devastating effect on their relationship? Not most people. If you knew then, what you know now, would you still have acted the same? Most people, if they knew how they're daily actions, including anger, selfishness, etc., would add up and eventually affect the life of the marriage, would not act in the same way. That's why so many people at this site say the WISH they had seen Dr. Harley's concepts LONG AGO! Even my H who has left home never to return, read SAA and said, "Man I wish I had read that a year ago."<P>Anyway, the point is....when we act "selfish" in our daily relationships, it is usually more "reactive" than based on intent. But, when you go out and HAVE (implys action) an affair, you may be "reacting" to months/years of you spouse taking you for granted, but you are definately INTENDING to do something concrete and specific, BEFOREHAND. <P>So the concept of selfishness holds true, by definition: Selfish - caring chiefly for one's own interests, regardless of others. "Regard-less" means that something was "regarded" or "considered." That something was the affair.<P>2) Anyway, to other point is that the end result of divorce may be the same, but the way it came about greatly affects both people's future life. If that wasn't true, why are we so shocked and disgusted when we find out a child lived and died in a closet, but not at the way a child who dies in a car accident? The difference is, one was an accident and one was intentional. One was instantaneous and one was over a period of time and involved inhumane treatment. The end result was that a child died, but there is a BIG difference in the HOW and how it will affect those family members having to go on after the event.<P>3) The last point is...yes, all sin is sin in God's eyes and He forgives them the same, as we should. But certain sins have more natural consequences and ramafications than others. Telling your sister she doesn't look fat in those new jeans (when she does) is a lie, but it usually doesn't lead to destroying her life. Having sex with a person you aren't married to which, unless you were raised in the jungles of Africa, we all know leads to destruction of the relationship and could also directly lead to disease and/or pregnancy, DOES destroy so many lives. <P>So sin is sin, but some sins hold more serious and unrepairable consequences.<P>Sorry this is so long. Just had to add my 3 cents worth....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

Your analogy is a poor one. First, because noone has bound or physically incapacited any of the betrayed and "forced" them to continue being treated in a heinous manner.<P>My one-night stand did not justify my ex-H saying the following:<P>I wish you would jump off a bridge<P>You are a mutilation<P>You are a slut<P>I hope you die<P>Also, I was chased into a bathroom, for fear of being beat up, and he broke the door down.<P>This is just a small sample. And it happened in lesser forms before my "affair". <P>Now, tell me who do you think is selfish? My H made out like a bandit at our divorce because of my guilt. And his abusive past can be concealed by his poor excuse: "my wife cheated on me". The ONLY reason I'm sad I cheated on him is because my guilt gave him power he didn't deserve. AND because people who don't know our intimate life still think he's a victim. <P>Oh, by the way. I never laid a hand on him. The worst I called him was a spoiled f*cking brat, which I still believe.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 25, 2000).]

YOU WROTE:======================================<BR>Your analogy is a poor one. First, because noone has bound or physically incapacited any of the betrayed and "forced" them to continue being treated in a heinous manner.<BR>==========================================<P>Sorry, TS, to disagree....but my analogy of of the child in the closet wasn't to highlight the physical incapacitation or forcefulness of their treatment, it was to highlight the INTENT of the person(s) inflicting harm on them.<P>By the way, yes, I AM being forced to be treated in a heinous manner....like a disposable person...to be disgarded, dismissed, ignored...FORCED to accept divorce, something I adamently dissagree with and have NEVER have even considered a choice. I would call this heinous, which means utterly reprehensible (deserving rebuke). My H is treating me like ALL of this is my fault. I was almost a model wife...not perfect...I now see the things I did that were selfish and helped cause his unhappiness, which I didn't see at the time. But I don't deserve to be treated this way. Is stuffing a child in the closet worse than tearing out the heart of the one you PROMISED to love and cherish? Is letting your child die in a closet worse than INTENTIONALLY killing your marriage?? You don't know me, but I am INCAPACITATED by all that is happening to me. I can barely function!! I'm not a child, so maybe you think that's okay. You can't SEE my bruises and brokenness, so maybe it's not as painful as physical abuse. Is is okay that I fell utterly hopeless and think about suicide EVERY WEEK!?!? I've even found out how many of my anti-depressants I'd have to take and how to physically cut my wrists! I thank God that He's stopped me the times I've actually tried to do it.<P>I am very sorry that your husband treated you that way. I truely am. You didn't and don't deserve to be treated that way...no one does. You may have had what most people would consider a good reason to have an affair, however.....<P>===========================================<BR>My one-night stand did not justify my ex-H saying...<BR>==========================================<P>....your husband's saying THOSE THINGS doesn't justify your intentionally having an affair. Period. Period. Period. <P>My previous post wasn't to say that both parties aren't selfish in a hurting/dying relationship. They are...BOTH OF THEM ARE. My post was to say that the actions on each person's part have to be looked thru the eyes of INTENT. Yes, in you H's case, it does sound like he INTENDED to do those things to control you. I'm sure he even thought that at the time. But in most cases, the betrayed doesn't INTENT to do things to INTENTIONALLY destroy their marriages. I know I didn't.<P>Having an affair is INTENTIONAL. Like I said, it involved pre-planned actions that every person knows will have a negative affect on their partners, let alone their relationships. My H said it was the only way he could think of to get out of a situation he didn't want to deal with. And you even said it yourself, "I gave my ex a free-ticket out, and he took it." You knew it would end the marriage.<P>Just my thoughts....not true in every case, but I think true in most cases.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

I agree<P>I'm not saying "What caused the marriage to go bad" That is too general and also too specific. <P>I am asking "What unzipped the zipper?"<P>What caused my H to say "My wife doesn't meet my needs, but she will" and me to say "My Husband doesn't meet my needs so I must learn to live with it." <P>I DID NOT UNZIP THE ZIPPER!!!!<P>There is a major difference there.<BR>

Hi all..<P>I may be way off base here, but all of us have been dealt a series of different circumstances. We're in essence (i.e. our marriages) all unique, and it seems if we're giving our opinions based solely on our own situations without taking into account that every situation is different. <P>I became involved in an affair because I was not mature or acting in a mature manner, obviously. I was subconsciously needing to regress back to when I was a dating teenager (!) (married young, had kids young, wanting to recapture that ole' youth). Yep, selfish. I admit it. And now the affair has been over for several years and I still cannot believe I made the choice I did (affair), yet I feel I've learned and grown tremendously since that time and my marriage has really blossomed. <P>We all make mistakes (some of us make some pretty heinous major ones that cause an awful lot of pain) but if we learn and grow from them (and never repeat them), at least we have a valuable lesson learned. My husband's infidelity was also a selfish form of retribution as I saw it, and I also thought I deserved it, but does anyone deserve that? I spent a long time really feeling angry at my husband and myself for what I'd done, but doesn't forgiveness have to come sometime, for our own sake? The only way I started to feel some sense of peace was when I decided to forgive.

Forgiving - I'm having such a hard time forgiving... maybe because this is the fifth time in 18 years my husband has decided another women made a better friend then me. <P>I don't mind that he has women friends - i do mind when he keeps them secret - that has happened twice. Emotional affairs are as hard to deal with as physical ones. <P>I don't know if forgiveness is in me this time. I don't want to go through the rest of my years doing this and feeling this way. <BR>I feel guilty because this time I can't seem to forgive this stupid mistake. <P>My husband is really trying, but I just can't seem to forgive this one......

TO THE STUDENT:<P>In reference to your reaction to Tired LuLu:<P>I have seen this reaction from you several times in the past. In fact, you had a very strong reaction to a posting of mine some months ago. And as in my case, you became unnecessarily combative because you missed the point or misunderstood what I was ineffectively trying to convey. <P>We all know you are a very intellegent, well-read, well-educated woman. Perhaps we do not have the same capabilites as you do to express ourselves effectively enough to suit you. However, we all do the best we can to explain what we are trying to say in the hopes that the others here can understand the point we are trying to make, inept as we may be at this.<P>Perhaps you could try to accept what we say and how we say it in the spirit with which it was intended without an instant knee-jerk defensive reaction. <P>It seems as if you have become the forum's self-appointed "hypocracy cop" who comes to the forum to 'bust' the betrayeds for your perception of their self-righteousness. You practically admitted as much as a way to deal with your issues and indirectly retaliate to your husband's justifications.<P>Hey. I don't know. I'm just guessing here. I don't have your edukashun.<P>catnip =^^=<P><p>[This message has been edited by catnip (edited May 25, 2000).]

I have tried to explain my situation over and over again in the last year, and it never seems to make much difference, but here I go again. <P>My stbx cheated with three women in year seven of our marriage, two at the same time, and he was selfish. There's no other explanation. His affair this year was revenge. He was lonely when he left me, and angry too. <P>Stupidity caused my affair. I was an idiot. I was depressed, lonely, angry, hurt and stupid. I should have looked inward, I was in denial about my situation, and looked outward instead. The OM knew a patsy when he saw one, and he led me to believe that his sig. other was out of the picture (they lived together, not married). Even when I knew the truth (he would never leave her) I was so *in love* with him that it was hard to let go - but I did let go. My H could not let go of his pain so he had a revenge affair on me. I was faithful for 19 years, despite the fact that my H was not faithful, over and over again. <P>I have been told on this very forum that we have been playing a game of revenge. I was not seeking revenge. I was trying to feel better. I never saw myself as selfish because I was so emotionally broken that I wasn't thinking clearly. Call is justification if you want, but I don't see it that way. <P>People have affairs for all sorts of reasons, all of them wrong. But it does happen, and it's not always because someone is selfish.