[QUOTE]Originally posted by purplemag:<BR><B>I am also wiping away the tears. This is so hard. I feel in my heart exactly as you. I don't love my H like I used to. I want to so badly, but it's just been totally ruined. <P>What scares me the most is exactly what you described (and as I said above). I don't feel for him the way I used to. He was everything to me. Even when I knew our marriage was basically in the toilet, even before the affair because of the drinking, when I made plans to go out, I made sure they were on nights he'd be out, because on the nights he'd be home, I'd want to spend them with him. But it got to the point that the nights he was home, he was passed out on the couch anyways.</B><P>I don't have lots of advice here, but my H has been a sober alcoholic for 15 years (2 years before I met him) and just started drinking 8 months before the affair. I know that had a lot to do with his mindset and his "willingness" to allow the affair to happen. I have never been with him when he was drinking, and it was weird for me. (And the generalization about construction workers is right on (my H was a roofer)...in fact my H used to call beer trucks "roofing supply trucks.")<P>My first comment is....now that all this has happened, I too feel like everything is ruined. I want my marriage; I want my H to move back home; I don't want a divorce. But I was like purplemag....I adored him. He was my all (except God, of course). We have no kids and I planned, without even trying, my whole life around him. I ALWAYS took him into consideration. That's what I thought love was.<P>Right now, however, I waiver between it being over and standing firm for my marriage ("that feeling"). Feelings come and go...I try not to put too much trust in them at this point in my life. I just pray that if he did decide to come home that God would give me His wisdom to know how to respond and the desire to love him again.<P><BR><B>And, too, what I get tired of is this Plan A and being nice and everything else. People who don't live with an alcoholic don't understand. That's what we've been doing our whole life with this person. Walking on the eggshells, making sure there's no angry outbursts. I'm tired. I want some of that given back to me. I want to be the pampered one.</B><P>Although my H didn't drink when were together, his behaviour is totally alcoholic. I want to be pampered too and made to feel like I was as important to HIM as I made him feel to me! However, as NSR is fond of saying, Plan A isn't just something you do to get your spouse back...it's not a temporary fix. Plan A is a way of life. I am a red-head with a short fuse. Plan A has helped me tremendously not only in my relating to him, but to my relating to all the people in my life. I actually love it and am trying more and more how to do it even better. I do want it to be a way of life for me, no matter what happens with my marriage.<P>Plan A doesn't mean you don't have an opinion; it doesn't mean that you can't speak your mind; it doesn't mean that you can't be yourself. That's what I am beginning to realize...I like myself and I want to be myself...actually that's who my H married all those years ago....ME! You just don't act in a way that is disrespectful to the other person (no love busters). People are going to disagree....just don't love bust!<P>I KNOW this will be hard and is hard. My H, when he was at home, didn't always seem to care about my opinion, no matter how "softly" I presented it to him. Many times I was walking on egg-shells with him, even to do little, ordinary stuff like laundry or whatever! He is very self-centered (as I think many alcoholic's are) and always looked at whatever was happening as "how does this affect ME." So if he did come home, I would have to find new ways to be myself, and all that means, without "breaking" Plan A.<P>Don't know if this helps, but ask God to give you love for your husband. Love is many things...one of them being a decision. Sometimes acting in a loving way, will eventually bring the feelings around. <P>I'm sorry you're tired....I understand. And it feels like you are doing all the work. That's because you probably are. Ask the Lord for strength. "Come unto me all you who are weary and heavy-laden and I will give you rest." Turn to Jesus. Ask Him.<P>In this kind of thing, He's the only one who can.<P>{{{{{{{{You're in my prayers, purplemag}}}}}}}}}}}<P>

Mrs. O:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Although my H didn't drink when were together, his behaviour is totally alcoholic. I want to be pampered too and made to feel like I was as important to HIM as I made him feel to me! However, as NSR is fond of saying, Plan A isn't just something you do to get your spouse back...it's not a temporary fix. Plan A is a way of life. I am a red-head with a short fuse. Plan A has helped me tremendously not only in my relating to him, but to my relating to all the people in my life. I actually love it and am trying more and more how to do it even better. I do want it to be a way of life for me, no matter what happens with my marriage.<P>Plan A doesn't mean you don't have an opinion; it doesn't mean that you can't speak your mind; it doesn't mean that you can't be yourself. That's what I am beginning to realize...I like myself and I want to be myself...actually that's who my H married all those years ago....ME! You just don't act in a way that is disrespectful to the other person (no love busters). People are going to disagree....just don't love bust!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This I know. I, too, have become a different person because of the Plan A. It's so hard to explain the feeling. I do know that I'm a better person because of Plan A. And, I'm understanding that I can disagree with H and not be worried about it, because I've learned to communicate it differently. <P>I guess I just see him as just cruising through this. I don't see his pain. He doesn't show it to me. He doesn't share it with me. And, to me, it seems that he's "fine". Which is not necessarily true. <P>With our therapy session last night, which helped out immensly (sp?), I think we're becoming closer at understanding each other a little more.<P>He's on one side of the spectrum, I'm on the other. I don't drink at all and never really did. So, I see his talking about Odouls as sort of an obsession and a step back into drinking. He sees it, as he likes the taste of beer, he DOESN'T want to drink, has NO desire to drink, so why should it make a difference. We're trying to come to the middle of this so we can at least try to see each other's point on the whole thing.<P>By the way, NoTrust, the therapist told him it's NOT a good idea to drink the Odouls so soon. She agreed that maybe in a year or so. I told H last night that it's not even been 6 months since he quit drinking. He's been drinking for 17 years. Does he really think he's given it enough time. I also told him that I'm afraid he'll resent me because he said that he'll wait until I say it's okay to drink the Odouls. He said the only thing he resents is the last 17 years of his life.<P>The man is pretty strong in his convictions at this point. But, what sticks out in my mind is that he is also a master manipulator. He'll say just about anything to get his way, and that's what I feel like this is. Another ploy to "get his way". And to me, I feel like he's had "his way" long enough. It's time to start negotiating and understanding other people and where they fit into his life.<P>It was a very good session last night. Really it was. A lot of this got discussed and is finally out in the open as to where we both "stand" on the subject. <P>Our therapist said that coming in once a month is enough. That, otherwise, she thinks we are doing really well. She sees this as a "rift" in the process, but not a really big problem. She's keeping an eye on us, and her door is open anytime if we feel the need to come in sooner than a month.<P>She thinks H is starting to understand what I've been trying to say. But, like I said above, his convictions are strong. Once he has his mind set on something, that's it. Like he said....he WANTED to quit drinking. If he didn't WANT to then he would of never made it this far. He never again wants to be that person he was for 17 years. What he gets angry about is people coming up to him and talking to him about it. People that have never said word one to him before about his drinking are now coming up and saying things like "hey, I heard you quit drinking", "so what's it like", stuff like that. And, that gets me angry too. Why all of a sudden do they think it's such a great thing and want to talk to him about it. They didn't care enough before? It's safer now? There's a lot more to this point, but this reply would be running on three pages if I typed out the whole thing. Which I'm not sure my fingers can handle... <P>Anways, Mrs. O, thank you for your reply, NoTrust thank you too. <P>Tomorrow should be the big test. It's our yearly trek to the Jimmy Buffett concert. Talk about your parties. It's one big drink fest. Pray for us that we'll get through it!<P>Hugs to you both! Thank you so much!<P>--purplemag<BR>

Hi Purplemag,<P>When I read about your therapy session, I feel like I'm reliving my own! It's so weird!<P>I'm glad that your session went well. It sounds as if you found a good therapist. We really lucked out also. Our therapist was really good too.<P>About a month ago, my H went to a co-workers party. When he walked in (it was at a restaurant/bar), some of his co-workers said (these are the ones that he used to hang out with daily at the bar), "I can't believe you're here. We thought that you weren't allowed to go anywhere!"<P>When my H came home after the party and told me that, it sure did piss me off. But then again, I thought about it, and told myself....those people are a bunch of Losers. Who cares what they think! They don't have a life anyway except for the bar and their barfly friends!<P>I was just so grateful and relieved that my H didn't drink. He told me that I could be proud of him that he abstained from alcohol and he was mighty proud of himself too.<P>Another episode was when we went to a family party. Most of his family drink excessively. His Uncle saw my H without a beer in his hand (my H was drinking soda), he asked him, "What's wrong? Don't you drink anymore?" His Uncle was offended that my H didn't drink anymore. Can you imagine that? Just because his uncle is an alcoholic, he thinks that his nephew should be drinking too! I guess the alcoholics who continue to drink need justification for what they are doing and need their support system.<P>Your H will be tested tomorrow. I hope he will do fine at tomorrow's concert. Just stay nearby and compliment him for his efforts. That will keep him focused and proud of his willpower to say "no"<BR>

NoTrust:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Another episode was when we went to a family party. Most of his family drink excessively. His Uncle saw my H without a beer in his hand (my H was drinking soda), he asked him, "What's wrong? Don't you drink anymore?" His Uncle was offended that my H didn't drink anymore. Can you imagine that? Just because his uncle is an alcoholic, he thinks that his nephew should be drinking too! I guess the alcoholics who continue to drink need justification for what they are doing and need their support system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!!! That's it! That's what he's getting from the relatives and friends that haven't seen him in awhile! He got that from the people in the beginning that he didn't tell that he stopped drinking.<P>What are these people, morons? Are they so not confident with themselves they need everyone around them to be drinking?<P>OOOOHHHHHHH Jeeze, that makes me angry! How could people be so cruel? To me, it's cruel. Don't say "What, did ya stop drinking?"... say, "Hey! You stopped drinking! That's great! I'm really proud of you!" -- that is if there really needs to be anything said at all. Like they say, if you can't say something nice... <P>I can't imagine how it makes the recovering alcoholic feel either. Must get to them too. How bad it must make them feel. Ooohhh...<P>H said he was "planning" on brining a six pack of Odouls with him to the concert tomorrow. I said, now see? This is what I'm talking about. You tell me you will wait for me to give you the "go ahead", but you plan on doing it anyway. He said he knew after last night, that he wouldn't do that. Because it would "ruin" the fun, so he doesn't want to do that, so he'll just drink soda.<P>He was saying in therapy last night, it's the color... the color of beer. So we came up with cream soda (unless he wants to mix Mountain Dew with ice tea or something, eeww). I've never seen such a fascination with a beverage before. It's just totally new to me. He understands that I have no clue about it. The only addiction I have is smoking. I quit for about 4 months, but I started again like right when this whole affair mess started (and I didn't even know it was going on! talk about "woman's intuition"!). So, to an extent I do know. I said last night that it would be like trying to find a non-nicotine cigarette. But smoking that, would want to make me have a real one. Like what's the point of smoking it if you're not going to get the affect from it, right? That's how I see it. I guess he doesn't.<P>Will we ever be able to understand them? I don't know. Hopefully, I hope to get to a point where we are at least on the same ground as understanding how one another thinks. We'll get there.<P>But, for right now, I'm <I>trying</I> to take it one day at a time. It's tough, but thanks to you and a lot of other people on this board, we just may make it through this!<P> Hugs to you NoTrust for all of your help and guidance. I can't even begin to tell you how much I appreciate it!<P>--purplemag<P><p>[This message has been edited by purplemag (edited June 09, 2000).]

Hi Purplemag,<P>I'm glad that I'm able to help in any way. I've received a lot of help from this forum and it feels good to be able to give back too (by helping anyone).<P>If your H can make it tomorrow with just soda...what an accomplishment that will be and another hurdle towards the right direction!<P>I grew up in a household where there wasn't any alcohol, so it is such a bizarre thing to be going through this with my H. It's so hard to understand what the obsession is with alcohol. I can't believe how much of a problem it has been for us.<P>My H grew up with it in his household, so it's just normal for him. That's where our 2 worlds collide!<P>How does your H feel about your smoking? Does it bother him? If it does, maybe both of you can make a compromise where you give up smoking and he gives up his alcohol...and you both work through this together. However, if it doesn't bother him, then just forget I mentioned it.<P>Well...gotta go for a little while. I'll check back later!

NoTrust:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How does your H feel about your smoking? Does it bother him? If it does, maybe both of you can make a compromise where you give up smoking and he gives up his alcohol...and you both work through this together. However, if it doesn't bother him, then just forget I mentioned it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He smokes too. He even mentioned that last night. He said if he "wanted" to quit smoking he would just quit. Boy, I wish I could look at everything so black and white. <P>So, the smoking doesn't bother him. Although he was really ticked at me for starting up again. I think he noticed that it was becaus of his actions (at least now he does). He hasn't said anything to me about it. Kinda like, we have something to do together. Sick, I know, but...<P>I'm gonna quit one of these days. Just gotta get it back in my head. I actually started smoking when I met him. Go figure. <P>--purplemag<P>

Hi Purplemag,<P>If your H doesn't mind your smoking and he smokes too, why would he get upset about it? Doesn't that seem strange to you?<P>Will you & your H be going out tonight...maybe like a date? My H & I love going out alone, except it's so hard to find babysitters for our 2 kids.

Hi NoTrust!<P>I think he got upset because he knows how much I'll get down on myself, and well, like most men, doesn't want to deal with a moody wife! But I think he was just supporting me the best way he knew how. Just like I am now for him. <P>Not going out tonight...big day tomorrow, plus we have friends coming over on Sunday afternoon. I have to clean the house and he's going to finish siding the shed he built last week. Not a real "fun" filled night, but at least we'll be together. <P>We don't have any kids, except for the four-legged kind, two dogs and a cat. We can pretty much leave them home alone. I think they're old enough now. <P>These Buffett concerts are an all day thing. We're leaving tomorrow at NOON and we probably won't get home until around 1AM or 2AM, depending on when we can get out of the dang parking lot. Thank goodness someone else is driving! Neither one of us want to take our vehicles down there. The parking lots get wrecked with broken glass all over, people get so drunk, they try to knock their own cars over, jumping up and down on car hoods. It's a wild time. <P>If I don't hear from you, have a wonderful weekend! I'll check in on Monday and let you know how tomorrow goes.<P>--purplemag...maybe I should change my name to "parrothead"....

Hi Purplemag and NoTrust,<P>Glad to see that you two have each other for support. My situation is a little different than either of yours, but I just wanted to comment again...if that's okay.<P>Purplemag: As far as the Odouls....It sounds like your H is "white knuckling" it. This is the term my H used to use for people who stopped drinking ONLY by will power. Yes, of course it takes will, but until he actually sees the mess that alcohol has made of his life, and the powerlessness that he has over it, he will have a hard time quitting and being so obsessed with alcohol. This is one reason AA is so effective. It promotes the thought that you have to actually go OUTSIDE yourself to solve the problem.<P>Also, my H's smoking ALWAYS went hand in hand with his desire to drink...it was a ritual that went together (he didn't smoke during our marriage either). <P>Like I said yesterday, I don't know that much about alcoholics, but what I've read is that the alcoholic will sometimes need to make huge behavioural changes...who they hang around with, the little rituals they use to relax, etc. Maybe you can help him in those areas.<P>I can't remember...is your H willing to go to AA or something like that? I think that would really help him. And if he isn't, that may tell you something about his motivation and/or desire to quit. Also, maybe you could help him come up with some "snappy" (but non-lb) replys to those people who feel they need to comment on your husband's not drinking...esp. the relatives. <P>The other question I have is.....does your H (and you) agree with and want to practice the MB principles? I understand that you are going thru your own counseling, etc., but do you and/or your H believe in the MB principles....especially the Policy of Joint Agreement? <P>One of the things I feel is that if my H wants to come back and work on the marriage, I would want us to follow the POJA among other things. Several months back, he read "Surviving an Affair" and agrees with it in concept, but said "I don't want to follow any stupid rules." <P>He too is a master manipulator and always tries to wrap reality around what benefits him. In some ways, and I don't mean to make any excuses for him, but I look at him like a handicapped person. Ya know a person with a missing limb can't do anything about it. It won't grow back. But they work around it and come to accept whatever limitations it may present. My H has a "missing limb" in that he didn't learn, in those formative years, how to see life beyond himself (partly due to his being an only child, partly due to his Mom's conditional acceptance of him, etc.). During our marriage, just about everything revolved around him....in very subtle ways, because he was loving too and did occassionally put me first. But he was coming to an understanding that he was limited in some ways in relating (to me, to others). <P>But since the drinking started again, it all went back to him, him, him. It's so sad. But I still believe it's a limitation that he has...a handicap in his self-image. He will always be battling that, and always wanting to fill that void that was created when he was a child. Maybe that's why these people become alcoholics, I don't know.<P>Anyway, just thought I'd share that. Don't know if it helps or not.<P><BR>