WOW I have so much to say after reading all of the replies you have all left me, But to be honest I am really at a loss for words. So please bare with me as I try to respond to each of you, Frist of all yesterday when I posted I was in a very big hurry and wrote this story as fast as I could, Very much to my regret now. anyways here goes...<P>MOMMA - THANK YOU so much for your understanding words. I am by NO means proud of what I did but I wont beat myself up for it anymore either. <BR>XMAN and KALGRL- What a team the two of you would make!<BR>XMAN you seem to have alot of ANGER you need to deal with. Who are you too judge and treat me that way? I dont know what your story is weather you are the Betrayer or the betrayed But I can understand just by your attitude WHY you are here posting. Too you I say Clean out your own CLOSET before you clean out mine !<P>Mental- just to let you know <BR>Ex #1 is now on his 4th marriage & still abusing his current wife. I have NO contact with him he is over $80,000 behind in child support and hasnt seen or spoken to his children in 4 years! Sometimes thats best!<BR>as for Larry Ex#2- He is still in the area, and currently working on his own problems. We still talk we are good friends when we need to be No bitter feelings between us we have Found peace!<BR>Buffy- No I am not out of my mind. I just know the person Todd was before his life took this drastic change and I do believe that old person does still exist.<BR>F A - As a matter of fact YES I did seek Psychiatric help that is where I learned all about the behaviors I had during the affair. that is how I learned to deal with the guilt.<BR> For the rest of you all I can say is I'm not proud of what I did. But I am proud I was honest! <BR>I hope you all understand I told my story i am not this cruel demented person you seem to think I am. The behaviors people have do to the guilt they feel are devasting enough. When I was so rotten to Larry it wasnt him I wanted to hurt It was ME! the only way I could deal with what I had done. <BR>I posted again and I hope you WILL ALL READ IT !<BR>God Bless each and everyone of you<BR>LoveOFmyLife

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loveOFmyLife:<BR><B>WOW I have so much to say after reading all of the replies you have all left me, But to be honest I am really at a loss for words. So please bare with me as I try to respond to each of you, Frist of all yesterday when I posted I was in a very big hurry and wrote this story as fast as I could, Very much to my regret now. anyways here goes...<P>MOMMA - THANK YOU so much for your understanding words. I am by NO means proud of what I did but I wont beat myself up for it anymore either. <BR>XMAN and KALGRL- What a team the two of you would make!<BR>XMAN you seem to have alot of ANGER you need to deal with. Who are you too judge and treat me that way? I dont know what your story is weather you are the Betrayer or the betrayed But I can understand just by your attitude WHY you are here posting. Too you I say Clean out your own CLOSET before you clean out mine !<P>Mental- just to let you know <BR>Ex #1 is now on his 4th marriage & still abusing his current wife. I have NO contact with him he is over $80,000 behind in child support and hasnt seen or spoken to his children in 4 years! Sometimes thats best!<BR>as for Larry Ex#2- He is still in the area, and currently working on his own problems. We still talk we are good friends when we need to be No bitter feelings between us we have Found peace!<BR>Buffy- No I am not out of my mind. I just know the person Todd was before his life took this drastic change and I do believe that old person does still exist.<BR>F A - As a matter of fact YES I did seek Psychiatric help that is where I learned all about the behaviors I had during the affair. that is how I learned to deal with the guilt.<BR> For the rest of you all I can say is I'm not proud of what I did. But I am proud I was honest! <BR>I hope you all understand I told my story i am not this cruel demented person you seem to think I am. The behaviors people have do to the guilt they feel are devasting enough. When I was so rotten to Larry it wasnt him I wanted to hurt It was ME! the only way I could deal with what I had done. <BR>I posted again and I hope you WILL ALL READ IT !<BR>God Bless each and everyone of you<BR>LoveOFmyLife</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am not trying to berate you. The man Todd is now is the man Todd was before. He hasn't changed. He and you need to evaluate your relationship with Jesus. I still hear more emphasis on you rather than others in your post. This is directly opposed to what Jesus taught and showed by example. He gave His life that we might have eternal life.<P>I just ask that you get with a Bible teaching church so that you can see the real love that God is giving you but you have not accepted yet. I say this because my W thinks she is saved but she has no fruit to indicate that Jesus is living His life through her. He keeps asking me to stay with her and I obey His request. I too am as sinful as the worst sinner. Yes, there are degrees of sin as there are degrees of righteousness. Read the Bible and you will find what I have said to be true. You have to take it in its entirety and not just the parts that you want to listen to in order to make you feel good about yourself.<P>Remember that it is about God and not yourself. It is about others and not yourself. Once you put others first then you will become first in God's eyes.<P>May you let God become LORD of your life which means that you do as He says regardless of the pain you think His requests will create for you flesh.<BR><P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

I would scorn you but I know of a woman who threw away everything to be with her first love, the high school sweetheart that her parents made her spit up from. She seemed happily married for 24 years and had three kids when that man came into her life again. Heaven help you and those your with.

OK, Bunch,<P>I am shocked and horrified, to say the least at your replies to LOML. Who in the H*LL DO you think you all are??? Messengers of God?? HA! Last time I checked, 'true' christians are supposed to foster love and forgiveness. A lot of what I see here is self-righteous anger and a whole lot of hot air. <P>Here, this woman spills her guts to us, hoping - HOPING that she will find someone who understands or at least will support her thru this. Instead she finds a bunch of harsh, cruel, selfishly indulgent criticism. You, who were unkind to her cannot help her. You don't even want to - instead you just get the big stick out and start beating. Hope it made you feel better. Shame on you guys. <P>It's one thing to be angry and tell someone why - but another to put on the long black robe and pound the gavel. None of us are perfect here or we wouldn't BE here.<P>Oh, and by the way if some of you knew the things I'VE said and done in my life and my marriage, well, you'd shun me too. The things I did are not all that dissimilar, along with other so-called 'betrayers' here. <P>LOML, If you still have the stomach to come here and read after how rudely you have been treated, I hope you take the time to read this:<BR>You have to deal with the choices you have made in your life. It happens, crew - face it - people DO fall out of love, and not always at the same time, unfortunately. What a neat, packaged-up little world this would be if that were true. I think you have a lot of growing and self-esteem issues that I hope your counsellors do not skip over. YOu DO need to pay attention to you. <P>I don't know Todd, but all kinds of bells and whistles went off in my head when I read what you wrote about him. He sounds like a addticted and addictive person. Ironically, that which is addictive also tends to be poisonous. It may sound far-fetched to you but one solution I can think of is getting completely away from this man. Keep him away from you and your children. <P>One of these old days, Love, you might just realize that YOU are WORTH the love of a man like Larry - stable, giving, trustworthy. YOU are WORTH a good relationship. You and Larry may or may not have hope of getting together again (although it makes me smile to think of that possibility), but you still deserve someone who doesn't abuse you or suck the life and marrow out of you. YOU are NOT a bad person. I think you made some poor choices - who hasn't? (although, apparently, we seem to be graced with the presence of a few almighty people who HAVEN'T, ahem). Now you have to get back on your feet. <P>I don't know where to tell you to begin - you have to know what you want out of life before you try to get something of value. I think perhaps mending things with your children will be a good place to start. They are also victims in this tumult. They maybe more hurt than you realize right now. Good luck, and I hope you haven't been turned off by our warm welcome wagon here - it's truly not a typical response. Those of us willing to admit that we are imperfect are here to listen, not to judge. <P>Carrie <p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited June 09, 2000).]

Sheesh - just read thru everyone's replies again. So pathetic to see how once one person throws a stone, how quick others are to follow.... monkey see, monkey do, I guess. <P>Well, looks like you handled 'em pretty good on your own, Love. It's something I've seen happen here before and wanted to say aomething about it then, but... to keep the peace....<P>As Cyndi Lauper sings - "I see your true colors shining thru" <P>K

Is she really looking for understanding? I really don't know what she wants. It seems she wants to get Todd back and is asking how do that? But is this really the appropriate place for that? After all this is Marriagebuilders forum. There are more appropriate forums for her issues. <P>And Khrya what are doing when you call others posters pathetic? I'd call that judgemental. If LOML doesn't like what others have to say she can ignore it. If she came here to get some validation that here relationship with TODD is somehow blessed by GOD and he is her soulmate BLAH> BLAH. You can hardly expect others to agree with that. <BR>

Ahh, TMD,<P>I never called anyone 'pathetic' - I separate the person from the behavior. Please do not put words in my mouth, thank you very much - trust me I have enough of my own there.<P>Secondly, at the risk of sounding redundant, I will again state what I feel is the obvious. She came here for help. There are other ways of trying to help someone who ASKS for it besides personal verbal attacks. This is supposed to be a place for healing - or is it? Only when the people who need healing live up to your standards, I guess. <P>It is typical for a 'betrayer' to be confused and to have some screwed up thinking. They live for awhile in deep denial - and what is 'truth' and reality to them often does NOT coincide with what is true and apparent to others on the outside looking in. Verbal bashings do NOT help to change this thinking around, sorry. <P>Khyra

FWIW, I agree with Khyra... LOML really has a pretty sad thing going here...it seems clear for whatever reason(s) that she's not able to enjoy a healthy, loving relationship, but is perpetually getting herself into awful situations relationship-wise. Her thinking is terribly skewed and unrealistic right now. But as several people pointed out - and as a former long-term betrayer myself, I wasted a lot of time on delusional thinking and self-destructive behavior too. Yaknow, "They that live in glass houses..." and all that! <P>While I agree that MB might not be the most appropriate place for her to air her yearning for Todd, belittling her grammar and her very presence here is mean-spirited. Surely we can do better than that, huh?<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

LOML: Believe me when I say that I am not here to cut you down on your behavior, spelling, language skills or anything else for that matter. I am in no better position than you. After reading your story, memories came back reflecting what I did to my own spouse. I said hurtful, cruel, hateful things to him just to make myself feel better for my own behavior. Now I realize what damage I have done not only to my spouse, but to everyone else involved.<P>You mentioned to "do this for yourself" or a similar suggestion. I would suggest that you follow your own advice. As one poster mentioned that your self esteem has been shot down, then you must work on yourself to bring it up. <P>Todd is a grown man and has to be responsible for himself. You cannot be worried about him and yourself at the same time. Right now you are believing that you are ok and Todd will return to his former self. Think again. You are not in a safe place now. You have a lot of issues that need to be resolved and/or put to rest. I know this because even though each of us are different, there are similarities in our paths. <P>I have struggled with emotional issues for over 40 years. I have hurt many people because I couldn't get my act together. I almost destroyed my marriage and hoping now that it's not too late. I just recently figured out after years of therapy, meds, affairs, disappointments etc... that I cannot go on like this. I nearly ended my life earlier this year and for what? <P>The higher power didn't put me on this earth to give up, but to make a difference be it publicly or personally. A quote I just recently was given by a friend "Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising every time we fall." I have fallen many times, but by the grace of God, I get myself back up as should you.<P>Todd should not be your concern right now. I am sure he'll be fine if he wants to be. You need to concentrate on your own well being and you children if you have. Your children and yourself need stability in your life and believe it or not----You're it. You cannot depend on what may never happen.(Todd) You can only depend on yourself. <P>As I said earlier, I would never pass judgement on you and I am only concerned for your well being. You can either listen or dispose if it. I will not be offended. I only wish you much luck in your journey to wellness and happiness.

WOW, the flaming ICON on the forum says a lot more than how many posts are here.<P>LOML, it seems to me that your journey is far from over. Take time off from Todd, Larry and any other man in your life right now. Focus on yourself. Reestablish your relationship with your sister. Reconnect with your inner self and your family.<P>Once there, I'll bet you'll be able to see the world a little clearer.<p>[This message has been edited by Gonnatry (edited June 13, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khyra:<BR><B>It is typical for a 'betrayer' to be confused and to have some screwed up thinking. They live for awhile in deep denial - and what is 'truth' and reality to them often does NOT coincide with what is true and apparent to others on the outside looking in. <P>Verbal bashings do NOT help to change this thinking around, sorry. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Khrya, I must agree with you that verbal bashings do NOT help, and I also will agree that people here were very harsh to LOML, including myself, and if you are still lurking about LOML, I apologize. I also agree that betrayers often are confused and have screwed up thinking, but at what point does at least some of the thinking become clearer, it is now June of 2000 and LOML writes that she hasn't spoken to her sister since 1996, that's at least 4 years, that's a lot more than a <B>"awhile in deep denial"</B> While I agree that most of the postings were harsh and mean spirited and could have been handled a lot better, I also believe that LOML needs a little "jolt". I don't profess to know what all LOML needs, but sometimes in life we all need to hear the truth and face reality, and sometimes that truth and reality is somewhat harsh to hear and face, but that is just my opinion.<p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited June 13, 2000).]

But what is it that makes a person see the light??? I do not think it is a lot of people trying to show them the way.<P>I wish it did work that way...but my H is a case in point. He has had everyone in his family tell him HE has a problem, and two counselors tell him he will stay in a fog re: the marraige and the kids as long as he is obsessed with his "friendship" with OP,<P>And yet......he, like so many of us hear only what we want to hear!!!<P>As much as it burns me up to hear some of the things the betrayer says I guess support and positive thought or prayer might be a better option.<P>Seems that most of us would rather stay asleep than to wake up! Huh?????

Hear Hear TT!<P>I'd love to be able to sleep until this nightmare was over too. I'd like to be able to sleep period.<P>I get so irritated when H chooses to remember nothing about our marriage. And if he does it's only the small insignificant bad stuff that's blown way out of proportion.<P>It can drive one crazy to listen to his twisted version of our life and relationship before the affair started.<P>Thank God for pictures and video cam. Otherwise I think I'd be brainwashed into believing him.<P>------------------<BR>Jo<P>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak that will snap in the wind"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>like so many of us hear only what we want to hear!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To somewhat follow up on that, so many of us asks for other's opinions and when they get them and it's not what they wanted to hear, get upset and say they are being judged. I would suggest that before asking a question, be prepared for all possible answers, even those we may not like.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As much as it burns me up to hear some of the things the betrayer says I guess support and positive thought or prayer might be a better option.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is why I apologized for the way I posted to LOML, I was wrong in the way that I said things, but I still believe that LOML needed to hear the reality of the situation that she wrote about, and I don't think it needed to be sugar coated in any way, just a lot more compassionate. <BR>

Love,<P>I know exactly where you are coming from in your post. I, too am the betrayer. In fact, I am a repeat offender. My situation is different from yours however in the fact that I have not been happy with my marriage for years. This is no excuse for an affair...I know this now. I have been in therapy for many months for this specific reason. I have finally opened my eyes to my problem, and it is a blissful, free feeling. I have learned that my self esteem is very low and I had a tendency to push my husband away from me...the closer he tried to get to me, the more I would seek to try and break free. Thus the affairs. I never had a father figure in my life...my father was a non caring stranger to me when I was young and this had a profound effect on all my relationships. What was I to base relationships on? I didn't know what a real love relationship was! All I saw was my father always leaving...therefore I assumed that all men leave at some point. My affairs were a way to get my husband to leave...he never did, which made the situation worse for me.<BR>This may sound strange to those of you that had a very stable home life. But it does happen, this warped way of viewing relationships. <BR>Was it this way for you??<BR>My marriage is hanging by a thread and I don't know what the outcome will be. I only know I had to seek help for my problems immediately...it was not easy to come to terms with myself. It was not easy to see all the hurt I caused my husband over the years.<BR>I would strongly suggest counseling for you Love. You need to learn that you can't rely on other people to make you happy....happiness comes from inside yourself first! Trust and believe in God to show you the way to go....he is there and will help guide you.<P>Good luck<P>naomi

F A---I actually did not even see your reply. I think...and I hope I was not sounding judgemental...I was including myself in that same mess (we only hear what we want to hear) I think I was actually reminding myself re: compassion and prayer, because I feel real down on the married Op in my case and my H!!!!<P>BTW...it was steve harley who told me "when one person (usually the spouse) tells you you have a tail you'll say Nah! do not. But when 10 people tell you you have a tail, you'll at least turn around and look.<P>I think that is what slowed my H down from the runaway train mode he was in when he came home from his trip.<P>See how things get altered in your perceptions via writing....I don't think I would be good at an internet A... (that's a joke!!!)<P>Naomi---Wow. I am so happy that you have been able to come to this point in your life. This is truly a great growth opportunity. I'm sure it is painful and has a long way to go. But you know I truly believe that growth of the soul is painful. Wisdom attained is painful. We really have to dig very deep inside of ourselves to acknowledge that it is the inside of US that is reponsible for our happiness and unhappiness. <P>We do tend to project it all onto others. With whatever our God is for us, we can find the light inside of us.<P>I am the betrayed and I'll tell you, although I feel like my heart has been ripped out over and over....(as my children's) I am trying to face my fears and insecurities and illusions that I have projected onto others . <P>I hope your self enlightenment continues to bring you much peace after the storm!!!<P>I'll look for your posts.

Just want you to all know I have been reading the replies to my post. I would like to thank those of you who understand where I was coming from. And too those of you who have a hard time understanding I would like to say I Also understand where you are coming from. It has been 2 1/2 years since my affair ended and not even 1 year since my divorce has been final. In the last year I have grown and healed and still have a ways to go. While involved in the affair My thoughts were very screwed up it was almost like it was me but in another state of mind (if you can understand that)The things I did and said were way out of character for me. I grew up in a single parent home never meeting my father till I was 19. My sister who I have not spoken with in years is my 1/2 sister, who has grown up with nothing all her life her Mother and step father were very much drunks and now I watch my sister sit in the taverns while her children are raising themselves, So is that wrong that I would walk away from her, that I would not trust her judgement, I think not!<BR> I dont claim to be perfect I have made my share of mistakes in my life But I have also done many good things as well! <BR>I tried to work on the Marriage But I couldnt do it alone right or wrong it is something I have to deal with Just like you all have to deal with the things you have done in yours.<BR> I have done alot of soul searching in this past year and I still have to say YES I LOVE TODD! right Or wrong I do. I didn't come here to ask for support or help to deal with the affair I came here looking for help to understand how the other person (Todd) feels after the affair has ended.<BR> For those of you that expressed being worried about my children Let me tell you this I have 3 kids ages 15,13,11. They are my life! they come first even before myself! As I said it has been 2 years since the affair has ended do you have any idea how it feels to tuck your youngest son in at night while he is crying because he misses Todd? Because my Husband was so busy with his own life he ignored my children as well as his own. Todd on the other hand worked 7-5pm and would come home My kids would meet him at the front door excited because they knew he would go outside and throw the ball around and he would take them fishing and spend good honest fun with them. when my daughter started in her rebellious teen years it was Todd who took her aside and talked to her Todd who would stay up with me and Go looking for her all hours of the night even tho he had to be to work early in the morning. <BR> I will be the first to tell you an Affair is not the answer to problems and I wish it could have happened differently, But it didnt! So now I have a choice to make... I can spend the rest of my life with all the should have beens, could have beens or the what if's. I choose to live with what is ! I cant go back and redo it Or I would but since that isnt an option I have only what is. What ever the reason that Todd and I were brought together I have to trust there is a reason. And what ever the reason is I will Make the right choices for me and my children. I cannot judge Todd for the things he has done in life Nor will I. I can only be there for him in his own healing process.<BR> Well I just wanted to post and let you all know where it's at for now.<BR>Thank you,<BR>LoveOfmyLife

LOML,<BR>I am sure I came across a little strong and am sorry for doing so. Yet, sometimes it is necessary to come across a little strong when one genuinely cares about someone who is hurting. I do care because God loves you. He has to be first in your life.<P>Judging actions and judging persons are two different things. The Bible says it is okay to judge actions. Only Jesus has the authority givven to Him by the Father to judge individuals. This judging will occur only once on judgement day.<P>If you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for OUR sins and that you have made Him Lord of your life then you will be able to discern when He is correcting you through other believers. I know it is hard because ALL of us want to defend ourselves when we try to hide OUR sins. We have to be open to see that it is God who is chastening us because He loves us. He does this through the things He allows to happen to us and the people He directs to cross paths with you.<P>I remember when I FELT that others were judging me until He opened my eyes to say that it is Me who is chastening you through those who love me and those who do not love me. I (God) have chosen you rather than you choosing Me. Let Him speak to you. It is much easier when you read His word. I love you and am praying for your healing. Remember sometimes He will ask you to do things that don't make sense because He hasn't revealed the entire picture to you. I know first hand: He recently showed me wy He asked me to marry my W. The person I chose to marry left me (XGF before my W and the only other person I have made love to.)<P>MONDO HUG !!!!!!!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Naomi,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What was I to base relationships on? I didn't know what a real love relationship was! All I saw was my father always leaving...therefore I assumed that all men leave at some point. My affairs were a way to get my husband to leave...he never did, which made the situation worse for me.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ME, TOO!<P>My father died suddenly when I was three. The whole concept of death was one that I didn't understand at that age, and my mother didn't know how to explain it to me. In an effort to shile me from the hurt, she told me "He went to heaven to live with God". At 3 all I could do was wonder why? Didn't he love us anymore? My mother didn't remarry until I was almost 20. I never saw a marital relationship. What is it anyway? This also left me with identity issues. I felt that if I had been a better child, more like (anyone whose Dad was still alive) that I might still have my father. Other people must be better than me, so I tried my best to be like everyone else. Over time I forgot who the real me was.<P>I too have been pushing my H away the last two years (I had an EA - it's been over for 3 months, but I'm still suffering withdrawal and clinging to the pain of it). My father was 42 when he died. It's probably significant that my H was 42 when all this started for me. In my mind I was expecting him to die soon (the fact that both of his parents died of cancer before we started dating didn't help). So I had to do whatever I could to protect myself from that. <P>But now that I've detached, I'm not sure that I want to re-attach. He is a good man, loves me dearly and treats me very well. I think I need to get this identity thing resolved before I can make the decision to re-commit. In the meantime, my H is doing a natural Plan A (it's just in his nature to be this way) and things at home aren't too bad. <P>LOML,<P>I'm sorry I intruded on your thread like this. You do need to work with what is in life or you'll get stuck. <P>Good luck to you.<P>